AoS 2 - Flesh-eater Courts Discussion

[Nqshou]

Quick question : Gristlegore Terrorgheists are 300points on the warscroll builder but 305points on the new AOS app. 

Do you know which tool is right?

Thanks!

[bonzai]

On 9/24/2021 at 12:22 PM, Sception said:

Or maybe something crazy and new.  Maybe a Gargant that has succumbed to the FEC delusions, or an Ogor chieftan who ate an abhorrant and was corrupted by it's version of the soulblight curse, becoming an Ogor ghoul king?

I don't care what form it takes, but this faction imo needs headline personalities more than anything else.  Hopefully GW's designers will use Nagash's well deserved nap as an excuse to bring all sorts of weird and interesting FEC personalities out of the woodwork.  After all, of all the death factions, FEC are probably the ones that are the best fit in personality, temperament, and aesthetic for 3e's focus on the Realm of Beasts.

My mind has been running with the Royal Jester idea. What if he was Ushoran's royal jester? And the twist? He is lucid and delusion free. Of the entire blood line, he alone knows the truth of their condition. Which is not to say that he is sane... a millenia of watching his bloodline and himself devolve into insanity and cannibalism has left him unhinged. Try as he might, he can't get through to any of his brethren, their madness twisting his words into uproarious jokes, biting roasts, and satires that convey some deeper wisdom.

As much as he despises his state and all of his degenerate kin, he is bound by blood and forced into loyalty to his liege. Now that the Carrion King is free once more, he is compelled to seek him out. So he travels from court to court, searching for word of his master, and clues to his whereabouts. His reputation proceeds him, and he is graciously welcomed as an honored guest by every Ghoul King and Archregent that he encounters. It doesn't matter how rude or insulting he gets, it is always heard as some great jest and his reputation continues to grow. This only serves to drive him into further depths of rage and frustration. Worse, he is no closer to finding his liege. He finds nothing but rumors and third hand accounts. Yet he has no choice but to keep on searching.

Yeah... so much potential in this faction.

[EMMachine]

On 9/28/2021 at 12:24 PM, Nqshou said:

Quick question : Gristlegore Terrorgheists are 300points on the warscroll builder but 305points on the new AOS app. 

Do you know which tool is right?

Thanks!

It should be 305 Points (Source: Generals Handbook 2021)

[Drazhoath]

In 2nd edition I used Horrors to kill soft targets with saves of 5+ or sth. and it worked well.

But in 3rd edition with all of this +1 save opportunities (best day ever, mystic shield, all out defense,…) soft targets arent so soft anymore. Do you think Horrors are still a thing or should I change to Flayers with rend-1 and mortal wounds?

[docofallplagues]

22 hours ago, Drazhoath said:

In 2nd edition I used Horrors to kill soft targets with saves of 5+ or sth. and it worked well.

But in 3rd edition with all of this +1 save opportunities (best day ever, mystic shield, all out defense,…) soft targets arent so soft anymore. Do you think Horrors are still a thing or should I change to Flayers with rend-1 and mortal wounds?

To be honest with exploding mortals and incredible movement, flayers have always been better at horrors at nearly everything they can do in my opinion. I take horrors for flavour these days but nearly always replace them with flayers if I'm being serious 

[warhammernerd]

6 hours ago, docofallplagues said:

To be honest with exploding mortals and incredible movement, flayers have always been better at horrors at nearly everything they can do in my opinion. I take horrors for flavour these days but nearly always replace them with flayers if I'm being serious 

Dunno, horror blocks are a proper ****** to shift and a lot cheaper than Flayers. Not as outputty, but they serve a very diff role IMHO. 

 

[Predien]

2 hours ago, warhammernerd said:

Dunno, horror blocks are a proper ****** to shift and a lot cheaper than Flayers. Not as outputty, but they serve a very diff role IMHO. 

 

I actually don't think horrors have much of a spot in the current meta. They have the same save and wounds as flayers but and almost half their movement and 0 MW output. We aren't seeing a lot of 1w, low save horde units which is what you want the Horrors to be fighting. You need rend or MW output do do anything to a lot of things right now. They're just way too situational where as Flayers are all around solid.

I just started goofing around with Kruleboyz and I do think horrors go into KB really well since their saves are garbage but against a lot of the other armies the horrors are going to struggle. My 2 cents.

[Honk]

On 10/4/2021 at 6:14 PM, Predien said:

I actually don't think horrors have much of a spot in the current meta.

12hp with a 5+, 3attacks without rend?! New meta incoming 🥳

 But as you said, against zombie like mobs they shine a bit 🤣

Edited October 6, 2021 by Honk

[Bademeister]

I too feel 3rd Ed. is just pointing at Falyers. Just look at them. 

Flying, -> check, fast -> check, shooting (no penelty with unleash hell) -> check Mortal Wound output -> check

Put them into heartlands battalion and let them scream next to a GKoTG with a grim garland.

[Nqshou]

What's your two cents on Varghul vs Crypt Infernal/Haunter Courtier as a support unit for a blob of 6 Horrors/Flayers?

[Honk]

9 hours ago, Nqshou said:

What's your two cents on Varghul vs Crypt Infernal/Haunter Courtier

Yes, for sure… neverever… maybe…

depends on the list in general. I usually have a courtier and summon in a varghulf, for point efficiency. But of course they are sturdier and since smashbat opponents that received a spiking varghulf tend to give them priority, which can be good (giving GkoTg or aar a chance) can be bad (no regen)

[Liquidsteel]

11 hours ago, Nqshou said:

What's your two cents on Varghul vs Crypt Infernal/Haunter Courtier as a support unit for a blob of 6 Horrors/Flayers?

I like the Varghulf, he does everything just a bit better I think. Though I don't actually ever use a regular Infernal as he looks too similar to the Flayers and I don't like that.

[Nqshou]

Good evening,

I had a game today that went well, but we couldn't find the answers to two questions around Feeding Frenzy:

1. I charged my Abhorrant Ghoul King on Royal Terrorgheist on a screen, that I killed, then I wanted to reactivate this model though Feeding Frenzy to pile-in into a hero that was 3,1" away from my AGKoRT, and use my attack that are 2" and 3". Could I? My understanding was no, I couldn't pile-in as my AGKoRT was not considered in combat with the hero as he was more than 3" away from him.

2. I charged my AGKoRT, and thanks to Gristlegore trait Savage Strike, I could attack with the strike-first effect. I then used feeding Frenzy on the same AGKoRT. Next I wanted to activate a second unit as I fought with strike-first effect with my AGKoRT, but my opponent though that as I used feeding frenzy, it used a "second" activation, which meant he could attack next with his unit. Was he right?

Thank you.

[Liquidsteel]

1 hour ago, Nqshou said:

Good evening,

I had a game today that went well, but we couldn't find the answers to two questions around Feeding Frenzy:

1. I charged my Abhorrant Ghoul King on Royal Terrorgheist on a screen, that I killed, then I wanted to reactivate this model though Feeding Frenzy to pile-in into a hero that was 3,1" away from my AGKoRT, and use my attack that are 2" and 3". Could I? My understanding was no, I couldn't pile-in as my AGKoRT was not considered in combat with the hero as he was more than 3" away from him.

2. I charged my AGKoRT, and thanks to Gristlegore trait Savage Strike, I could attack with the strike-first effect. I then used feeding Frenzy on the same AGKoRT. Next I wanted to activate a second unit as I fought with strike-first effect with my AGKoRT, but my opponent though that as I used feeding frenzy, it used a "second" activation, which meant he could attack next with his unit. Was he right?

Thank you.

Unfortunately both rules were played incorrectly, which in a weird way isn't so bad because now you have two bits of information to take you forward in your next games.

1) The triggers for being able to pile in and fight are that you are within 3" of enemy units OR that you made a charge move that turn. So because you made a Charge, you were indeed eligible to pile in and fight the hero. Effectively from where you finish your charge, providing you kill the screen in the first activation, you have a 6" threat range with the Fanged Maw for the second activation (another 3" pile and 3" maw). For what it's worth, the hero being 3.1" away mean you could still use your 1" reach attacks.

 

2) He was incorrect. Feeding Frenzy is not a separate activation as you are not picking a unit to fight, you are allowing a unit that just fought to immediately pile in and attack again. So thanks to Savage Strike and Feeding Frenzy you can fight 3 times before your opponent gets his turn to pick a unit.

[Nqshou]

8 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Unfortunately both rules were played incorrectly, which in a weird way isn't so bad because now you have two bits of information to take you forward in your next games.

1) The triggers for being able to pile in and fight are that you are within 3" of enemy units OR that you made a charge move that turn. So because you made a Charge, you were indeed eligible to pile in and fight the hero. Effectively from where you finish your charge, providing you kill the screen in the first activation, you have a 6" threat range with the Fanged Maw for the second activation (another 3" pile and 3" maw). For what it's worth, the hero being 3.1" away mean you could still use your 1" reach attacks.

 

2) He was incorrect. Feeding Frenzy is not a separate activation as you are not picking a unit to fight, you are allowing a unit that just fought to immediately pile in and attack again. So thanks to Savage Strike and Feeding Frenzy you can fight 3 times before your opponent gets his turn to pick a unit.

Thank you very much.

[Blair]

I've got a similar rules question on feeding frenzy 

The other night I wanted my terrorghiest to eat yndrasta but there were pesky sequitors in the way, I charged them with the terrorG and a zombie dragon, the dragon ate them for breakfast 

I then activated the Tg as he had charged piled him to about 3.5 out out from stormcast lunch, I then said I was using feeding frenzy,  my opponent tried 2 options to say no

1. The tg wasn't in combat so can't pile and attack, I said he had charged so could

2. He picked on the wording of FF that says after after a unit fought for the first time in a phase and my tg hadn't actually fought it had only piled the first time

So is he right in either of these points?

 

To be fair he was fairly scared of it, it had 3 extra attacks from ferocious hunger and gruesome bite. Not to mention its public enemy #1 at the moment,  last week I got ferocious hunger and black hunger on it 14(including feeding frenzy)bites rerolling for 6s, I ate 1/2 an army in 2 tuns  (chariot, 5evocators, 10vindictors, 3 palladors, 5 sequitors 1015pts). After my turn he opted for bring it down to get rid of it so put heaps into it, he fluffed shooting then i ate stuff. Survived the turn with 1 wound remaing 

[Honk]

5 hours ago, Blair said:

So is he right in either of these points?

My rule lawyer days never really started, before they ended, but I would say yes to No.2…

the first pile in move is a given, since the model finished a charge move and is therefore allowed a pile no matter what.

the feeding frenzy part has as pre-condition „having fought in the combat phase“. Hurray GDubs wording, but:

Core rules 13.1.2 Combat Attacks : when a friendly unit fights, you must make combat attacks with all of the melee weapons…

which is tricky, when there are no enemies around within 3“. 🤷🏿‍♀️

[Liquidsteel]

I think its quite clear to be honest.

The rules say that you are eligible to fight if you made a charge move, and picking a unit to activate is keyword bold "fight".

Fighting has two parts, piling in, then attacking. 

So even if you only activate to pile in, you still count as having fought. 

[pnkdth]

I do remember Season of War making a point about the order of activations being important for this very reason, i.e. if you mess up with the order and your unit haven't fought yet you can't use the ability (but memories can be fickle).

@Liquidsteel I think there's a difference between eligible to fight and having fought. It says, you gotta pile-in and must make attacks. THEN you count as having fought. If you have nothing in range you can't fight which means you haven't fulfilled both of the conditions for having fought.

For that reason I think the wording (as it remained in the most recent FAQ) is deliberate to represent those who just tasted blood getting their feast on.

[Liquidsteel]

I mean I disagree but I can appreciate your point of view and if you choose to play it that way that's fair enough. The clause "That unit has then fought" could be interpreted your way.

My line of thinking is that when it's your turn to activate a unit, the picking of the the unit is FIGHT. Within this you are correct that in 12.1.1, you a) Make a pile in move and then b) attack with your all of your melee weapons. It does quote 12.3 in this which expands by saying you must attack if you are in range to do so which is then explained in 13.1.2.

So my logic is that you have fought, because you were selected to fight and then you piled in, and did not attack because you were not in range.

We had a similar issue with whether a command ability granted by a core battalion counted as having been used, because it was not issued and no command point was spent, it was only received. GW ruled that this counted as having been used and thus could not be duplicated.

I would therefore argue a similar logic should take place here.

Going a step further and slightly off tangent, if not attacking means you have not fought, then you could argue that the game state cannot proceed, because the fight sequence cannot complete without attacks being made. 

 

 

 

[pnkdth]

@Liquidsteel You're right (dug around a bit). The Seasons of War example I was thinking was with a character who had not charged which made it unable to activate (nothing in range) and subsequently could not Feeding Frenzy.

[Honk]

On 11/3/2021 at 4:53 PM, Liquidsteel said:

I mean I disagree but I can appreciate your point of view and if you choose to play it that way that's fair enough.

Hurray GDubs for the best rule set evaaah 🙈

having bold lettered keywords, which are not always used or sequential actions that are not always relevant…

good thing I‘m a casual player and most rule lawyering is solved with a 4+ 🤷🏿‍♀️ But it does give a reverse gotcha vibe, if you double charge into something with the intention of piling and frenzy, then heated discussion, roll of 3 and bye bye GkoTg 

[JackOfBlades]

How have you folks found crypt horrors work with the coherency in 3rd? They lose a 3rd of their output if you reinforce, but you dont want to take them in minimum units as they can get wiped out too quickly. This is particularly bad for crypt horrors since they are neither a horde unit nor have enough wounds to count as 2 models for objectives. Are crypt horrors "supposed" to be like this now, or is their downgrade an ugly side effect of the new edition that a new battletome will or should smooth over?

Edited November 11, 2021 by JackOfBlades

[Liquidsteel]

I think Crypt Horrors in particular have gotten worse, due to save stacking. They were already questionable before however the total lack of rend is a big problem.

I think with Flayers you can comfortably run a big block of 6 or even 9. Yes you lose output but they still retain their rend and mortal wounds, their movement got better thanks to smaller boards and they can now unleash hell with their screams. Stick them in hunters of the heartlands and you can always guarantee to make them fight twice.

[aquenaton]

Hello! How are you? Sorry to bother. I am a khorne player just trying to explore different things, and somehow I ended up with a Flesh-eater Court Start Collecting that I am converting to be some kind of pict army (giving them some shields, exploring the idea of adding tattoos, etc. As it seems, the faction is a very self-contained one, with almost everything on just one box (exept the archregent and the spells). I was wandering, as the Start Collecting is so amazing, when would you recommend to stop buying it once and again and take different approaches? How would you tailor your lists at 750, 1000 and 1500 points? Right now I am adding to my collection the contents of the warcry crew, so it means I will have in total, 20 serfs and 6 knights, as well as the royal mount (did the heads detachable) and the king, I also made two gharst courtiers. I think I will grab the archregent next week, but after that... where to go?

It seems every abhorrant can bring more people to the game for free, so deciding what to hire and what to summon seems a little difficult to master. Also, the ghouls get extra attacks when they are over 20 models, so a block of 30 looks like needed, is that right? if so, would you consider getting like... 60 ghouls for hire and 6 flayers and then feel free to summon anything else? What would you recommend to give the first steps in this faction? Are spells necesary?

Also, are warscroll battallions a thing in this faction?

Thank you very much for your help! Just a non-competitive player trying to join the feast

Edited December 4, 2021 by aquenaton