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AoS 2 - Legion of Blood Discussion

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So, after reading with my two eyes about the absolute madness that Ignatius "Nate" T (love you btw, total respect) i thought "I WANT A MASS VLORD ARMY TOO" and came up with this. Is not as good as Igniatiuses' one  but im trying, ok? Also if you think im crazy, you probably are, not me. Here goes:

LEGION OF BLOOD
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LEADERS


Vampire Lord 140pts
Flying Horror, General, Command Trait: Aristocracy of Blood, Artifact of Power: Orb of Enchantment
Lore of Vampires: Amethistyne Pinions


Vampire Lord 140pts
Flying Horror

Lore of Vampires: Amaranthine Orb


Vampire Lord 140pts
Flying Horror

Lore of Vampires: Amaranthine Orb


Vampire Lord 140pts
Flying Horror

Lore of Vampires:Vile Transference


Vampire Lord 140pts 

Flying Horror

Lore of Vampires: Vile Transference

Necromancer 130pts

Lore of the Deads: Overwhelming Dread

UNITS
5x Direwolves 70pts
Battleline

5x Direwolves 70pts
Battleline

10x Zombies
Battleline

10x Blood Knights 400pts

10x Blood Knights 400pts

ENDLESS SPELLS
Purple Sun of Shysh 50pts

Prismatic Palisade 30pts

Ravenak's Gnashing Jaws 30pts

Horrorghast 60pts

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOT 2000PTS

Not gonna lie, it could use a lot of improvement, so shoot away and give me a piece of your mind as long as it does not goes against the main point of the army

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3 hours ago, Raptor_Jesues said:

Vampire Lord 140pts
Flying Horror, General, Command Trait: Aristocracy of Blood, Artifact of Power: Orb of Enchantment
Lore of Vampires: Amethistyne Pinions

This guy is super interesting. The ultimate support character. I really like the idea of slamming this guy in with a unit of the blood knights following into the biggest baddest thing your opponent brought. You're going to have to play it perfect- if he gets in before the Blood Knights its going to be a dead Lord. Aristocracy is a great pick here so you can use that CP on +1 attack without fear of being stranded.


10x Blood Knights 400pts

10x Blood Knights 400pts

Two units of 10 is scary for sure. Gives redundant bully units, though I like having just the one and multiple units of 5 instead. I really like the 10 as it makes getting the reroll from Aristocracy of Blood easy to get, but it does limit the ability to split your threats. These Blood Knights are for the most part all you get for actual fighting units, and you're going to find that you may not be able to break off and get at everything you'd like. Single little heros running around are mostly safe, as they know you won't be committing such a large unit to charging a Tidecaster or Slaughter Priest or something. 

 

If you're going for a Murder Ball then I worry about your 5 wound 4+ save character getting sniped out, and losing a significant part of the army's function. Either a Lord of Change Infernal Gateway or a Warp Lighting Cannon is enough to ruin the ball. That said, I'm curious to hear if this ever actually comes up. 


ENDLESS SPELLS
Purple Sun of Shysh 50pts

Prismatic Palisade 30pts

Ravenak's Gnashing Jaws 30pts

Horrorghast 60pts

Horrorghast is a bit expensive in my opinion here. For 2 reasons. 1, whatever you charge is either going to be fully dead straight off, or it's going to be down so far in Battleshock that another -2 isn't going to matter much. 2, most armies either straight ignore battleshock, are bravery 10+, or will be using a CP to keep whatever you target alive. 60 points is a lot to spend on something that won't really do much. Particularly in a list with this many VLords, as you might find that you have a couple sitting around twiddling their thumbs in the hero phase, which is where VLords make their money in my opinion. I'd look at adding some of these: Balewind, Pendulum, Quicksilvers, GeminidsI

I'll comment on what I have experience with.

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15 hours ago, Ignatius "Nate" T said:

I'll comment on what I have experience with.

-Yeah, the VL is quite squishy so having him along the BK is mandatory
-I understand, yes. I had some good rolling with 2x10 BKs as of late but i will try your suggestion
-Agreed, imma swap the horrorghast with a pendulum

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I would like some help with this list

Neferata

Vampire lord on zombie dragon

-ethereal amulet

Prince vhordrei

2x5 wolfs

40 spear skeletons

Extra command point

Cogs

This leaves 150 points for something. Probably Necro or maybe corpse cart for +1 to cast.

What do you think?

I wanted to create court of nulahmia list but I think it might not be a good idea in my meta.

 

 

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On 10/16/2019 at 2:08 PM, ZLee Syn said:

I wanted to create court of nulahmia list but I think it might not be a good idea in my meta.

Do It!!! 
grab somebody who is not waac and can tone it down a bit and all should be good...

 

On 10/5/2019 at 4:25 PM, Raptor_Jesues said:

I had some good rolling with 2x10 BKs as of late but i will try your suggestion

Got a grand whooping with my LoB- List : coven throne, 2 vamps and a necro. 3x5 wolves and 2x10 bloodknights

against 

GHoN: vamp, necro and lantern 30 guards, 2x10 rasps and 2x10 reapers... plus mourngul 

that mourngul really threw a bucket of sand and a wrench into my BK charge into the grave guards and the amount of gravesites made it all for funzies on his turn 😅👍🥳

 

672684E7-B918-4360-B762-D09A2CDD1732.jpeg

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Got utterly crushed on the weekend (0-3) and thinking my army might not have the legs in the current meta.

I faced Nagash with the new bone reapers with the 2+ save and bodyguard play, teleporting tree lord sylvaneth and Alariel and finally new ogres, specifically the shooty clan.

 

My army was Vhordrai, VLOZD (general, -1 to hit in combat, ethereal amulet), 40 sword skellies, a necromancer with overwhelming dread, 2x 5 dogs and 2x5 blood knights.

Not sure if my tactics were poor (probably) but I was finding that my general would die the same turn (or just before) my skellies so I couldn't bring them back.  Vhordrai was priority number 1 for my enemy so I was finding he was dead by turn 2 most games.  I found the blood knights to just not hit hard enough for their points but I did have a good enough amount of units to cap objectives.  Seems like this legion cannot dish out the mortal wounds to take out something like a Nagash or high defence army.

How do other people tend to run their dragons?  Do you always make sure your general is someone in the backlines who isn't going to die easily?  Do you hold back your dragons waiting for the first engagements and then dive them in?  How do you deal with someone who is going to shoot the ****** out of you before your slow force can move forward?

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8 hours ago, Death1942 said:

How do you deal with someone who is going to

I tend to spend a lot of money on therapy and quality alcohol...

Just had a look at the deathriders from obr and then at the Bloodknights... wept salty tears of hate. 180 vs 200, the offensive is roughly the same, Bloodknights might win a bit on charge and against no rend attacks... but the obr are 2“ faster, and you are able to heal and resurrect them if you field f.e. Arkhan... then cp shenanigans and then you’ll ask yourself why you’re even trying. 
but that’s for waac and min-max soulless people.
My knights died with all the heroics against stupid tarpit of doom.

For general, I think it is tempting to take the vamp lord on dragon, but considering his offensive playstyle, he is supposed to suicidecharge. I‘d declare the necromancer within the big blob, maybe even with some regen artifact, or the small vamp in the blob with vile-T as spell...

i guess against the new madness, you’ll have to rush the objectives and endure... as LoN dropped I wiped the board with my orruk arch-nemesis (nagash in first cohort) at „battle for the pass. tabled him end of round three, but victory on VPs was end of round 5, so to speak...

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11 hours ago, Death1942 said:

I faced Nagash with the new bone reapers with the 2+ save and bodyguard play,

Another thing with the new books is the development of casual play... rummaging through the OBR threat, you’ll see a lot of people stating, that certain combos (+1 save ) are not really for casual play. If you then start with your Legion of Blood „fun list“ you‘re in for a rough ride.

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11 hours ago, Honk said:

Another thing with the new books is the development of casual play... rummaging through the OBR threat, you’ll see a lot of people stating, that certain combos (+1 save ) are not really for casual play. If you then start with your Legion of Blood „fun list“ you‘re in for a rough ride.

I am definitely not in it for casual play.  Going to the worlds biggest AOS tournament in January and want to field a decent death army so trying to refine it and get a list going.  I suspect I might have to bite the bullet and drop legion of blood, not enough staying power and not really enough hitting power.  Might just run my blood knights as black knights instead.

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7 hours ago, Death1942 said:

want to field a decent death army so trying to refine it

No offense meant.

Maybe declare your Necromancer as general, so your dragons can engage at will. 

And I hate saying it, but switching the Bloodknights for a bunch (2x10) of stupid grimghast reapers might be an idea... 8“ fly, summonable, pretty good offense and 4+ unrendable 

kinda moves you out of LoB thou 😓

Edited by Honk

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8 hours ago, Death1942 said:

I am definitely not in it for casual play.  Going to the worlds biggest AOS tournament in January and want to field a decent death army so trying to refine it and get a list going.  I suspect I might have to bite the bullet and drop legion of blood, not enough staying power and not really enough hitting power.  Might just run my blood knights as black knights instead.

If you scroll down a bit, you find a thread (don't know how to do links, I'm afraid) that's called "Court of Nulahmia List Help", it's two sites all about fielding a LoB-List competitively. I'm new, but the guy posting has given amazing tips and insight. 

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On 11/19/2019 at 5:54 AM, Honk said:

And I hate saying it, but switching the Bloodknights for a bunch (2x10) of stupid grimghast reapers might be an idea... 8“ fly, summonable, pretty good offense and 4+ unrendable 

You could have both!

I currently run 2 units of 5 Blood Knights and a unit of 20 Reapers, with a VL around (~60 attacks [ah, the bell...] on 4+ re-rolling against units with 5+ models? Yes please...).

The Reapers stay on the objective that matters and wait for the opponent to get to them. Shooting, MWs... no problem, 1 CP after they're back. The two units of Blood Knights flank the field instead, supported by VLoZDs and screened by wolves (because we so desperately want to get the charge). 

Pro tip: 5 Knights fit on almost every piece of terrain you have on the mat... suddenly, they have a 2+ against anything with no rend!

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Allegiance: Legion of Blood
- Mortal Realm: Shyish
LEADERS
Neferata Mortarch of Blood (380)
- General
- Lore of the Dead : Fading Vigour (Deathmages)
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (440)
- Deathlance & Shield & Chalice
- Artefact : Ethereal Amulet
- Lore of the Vampires : Amethystine Pinions
Necromancer (130)
- Lore of the Deathmages : Overwhelming Dread
UNITS
5 x Blood Knights (200)
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Blades
10 x Zombies (60)
5 x Dire Wolves (70)
10 x Zombies (60)
5 x Dire Wolves (70)
5 x Blood Knights (200)
10 x Zombies (60)
TOTAL: 1950/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 WOUNDS: 150

VS

Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
Orruk Megaboss (150)

Battleline

Units
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)

Battalions
Ardfist (120)

Total: 1920 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1

Orruk warclans win with a major victory for points.

My review:

- Blood knights are a good hammer of paper.  On a charge of one of this unit to 15 Ardboys they only killed 3 ardboys and this orruks killed 3 blood knights (the Arboys had +1 damage and fading vigour...). 

-The outpout of dagame of the VLoZD is pretty poor. I think that today is little overcosted. At least in comparrison with the Maw-Krusha or other actual monsters of similar points. He was death by a charge of 6 gore grunta.

-Neferata is strategic support character. But i think that Arkhan is much better. She has two spells but don't add nothing to his rolls, you need use his cp every turn and this affect the use of other cp, do a similar damage of VLoZD  but is much less resistance. She could be killed for a unit of 10 Ardboys,

In the battle i destoy 0p of orruks and him destroy my 2000p. But we had similar victory points in the last turn. Removing my wolves I was able to captured his objectives and the mechanic of revive a unit of 40 skelletons with 1 cp was determinant to kept my objectives.

 

 

Edited by Sartxac
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5 hours ago, Sartxac said:

- Blood knights are a good hammer of paper.  On a charge of one of this unit to 15 Ardboys they only killed 3 ardboys and this orruks killed 3 blood knights (the Arboys had +1 damage and fading vigour...). 

-The outpout of dagame of the VLoZD is pretty poor. I think that today is little overcosted. At least in comparrison with the Maw-Krusha or other actual monsters of similar points. He was death by a charge of 6 gore grunta.

With the VloZD have you tried the dark mastery (I think that is the name) trait instead?  -1 to hit + and amulet should on paper keep him alive a lot longer.

The blood knights are pretty poor for their points.  Best case scenario you sit them on terrain and they charge out and wipe out units.  In reality terrain can be sparse (depends on your local area really) and a good opponent won't let you get those charges off easily.  Would love to see them given some buffs such as flat 2 damage and 3 on the charge, maybe even add some reach or consider adjusting their healing mechanic again.

Someone put me on a new blood list to try and it is basically spamming summonable units (none of which get blood trait benefits) because that is basically the strongest thing death can do.  Blood is purely there for the heroes to give them a slight buff.  Shame that is how it feels like the legion is going for now.

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On 11/19/2019 at 7:47 AM, AHexInScarletRed said:

If you scroll down a bit, you find a thread (don't know how to do links, I'm afraid) that's called "Court of Nulahmia List Help", it's two sites all about fielding a LoB-List competitively. I'm new, but the guy posting has given amazing tips and insight. 

That list eventhough competetive plays alot diferently then his list. Your wins comes alot from area denial and not actualy killing. You dont have numbers to hold points if enemy gets to them so you either have to destroy them or not let them there in the first place. And often you cannot kill everything in first 2 turns.

 

But it has much better matchup against slasnesh because of orb and lower number of drops

Edited by ZLee Syn

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On 11/21/2019 at 5:37 AM, Death1942 said:

The blood knights are pretty poor for their points.  Best case scenario you sit them on terrain and they charge out and wipe out units.

Well, that’s pretty good as a best case scenario...

I usually run two units of 5, and they have very rarely disappointed me. You can easily get them into cover, easily pile them in in such a way to avoid the most of the opponent retaliation, the minus two bravery thing is huge (more often than not forcing your opponent to spend precious CPs), if they are 16” away of anything they are in by definition because of the guaranteed charge (that’s some serious threat range), you can screen them real well with a single unit of 5 dire wolves, and you can have them dealing very reliable damage by spending a single CP (VLoZD command ability, re-rolling all failed hits). While your opponent is busy trying to get them off the table (intrinsic healing plus vile transference can keep them there quite a long time, and if the enemy doesn’t have rend, good luck to him...) your VLoZDs can get stuff done elsewhere...

In a nutshell: I like them very much! I am not saying they are THE best unit to run in LoB, but they certainly do their job quite well for their points - I think. Very personal opinion, of course, biased by the fact that I love the models and their lore (albeit I had to go for conversions as most people out there...)

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On 11/21/2019 at 12:09 AM, Sartxac said:

Neferata is strategic support character. But i think that Arkhan is much better.

In my opinion, none of the Mortarchs would be a good pick for a LoB army general. 11 wounds with a rendable 4+ means they are off the table in one turn against a shooty/MWs-heavy army.  Same thing when facing strong or in fact even not-so-strong units in melee. 
Conversely, a VLoZD with an ethereal amulet and aura of dark majesty will be way more tricky to remove. Having our general on the table until the very end is key - no Endless legions without!

I run Neferata in quite a few occasions. Once I managed a -4 to hit (3 CPs [thanks to a handy piece of Commanding terrain] plus Overwhelming  Dread) and that was fun (well, for 50% of the players anyway...), but died nonetheless a couple of turns later...

VLoZDs are the answer!

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1 hour ago, Thamalys said:

Well, that’s pretty good as a best case scenario...

I usually run two units of 5, and they have very rarely disappointed me. You can easily get them into cover, easily pile them in in such a way to avoid the most of the opponent retaliation, the minus two bravery thing is huge (more often than not forcing your opponent to spend precious CPs), if they are 16” away of anything they are in by definition because of the guaranteed charge (that’s some serious threat range), you can screen them real well with a single unit of 5 dire wolves, and you can have them dealing very reliable damage by spending a single CP (VLoZD command ability, re-rolling all failed hits). While your opponent is busy trying to get them off the table (intrinsic healing plus vile transference can keep them there quite a long time, and if the enemy doesn’t have rend, good luck to him...) your VLoZDs can get stuff done elsewhere...

In a nutshell: I like them very much! I am not saying they are THE best unit to run in LoB, but they certainly do their job quite well for their points - I think. Very personal opinion, of course, biased by the fact that I love the models and their lore (albeit I had to go for conversions as most people out there...)

But put in cover 5 blood knights isn't easy. If they charge this turn (the only moment when do damage) they aren't in cover. And in the next batte turns you need the 5 completely inside or above a terrain element. I also think that they are the best LoB unit.

For your other message. Desaffortunately I'm agree with your opinion about the mortarch, they are very overcosted (except Arkhan) but today VLoZD with ethereal amulet and aura of dark majesty can't do nothing vs other actual monster (as Maw Krusha, bloodthirster of rage, 6 gore grunta, etc) because the damage that he does is poor.

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On 10/1/2019 at 3:38 PM, Ignatius "Nate" T said:

 

Legion of Blood 

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon

- Artifact (Undecided, Ethereal? Ghyrstrike?)

-Vile Transference

 

Vampire Lord on Nightmare

-General (for safer summoning... Dragon instead?

 

If you're undecided on the Artifact, then try the Orb of Enchantment.  It's a unique effect  that can deal with a lot of the weird stuff that you run into out there that the BK can't.  It works best with opposing big flashy hero behemoths, which not everyone has.  The Amulet is more consistent.

It is so easy for the VLs to get sniped.  I see the appeal though.  You want the VLoZD chomping through stuff, not taking a turn off to run back to a gravesite to summon.  ESPECIALLY, if all that is is a 5 wolf screen.  I was looking at some of the larger support heroes for this reason but again, anything worth bringing back will cut into the BK budget.

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5 hours ago, Sartxac said:

But put in cover 5 blood knights isn't easy. If they charge this turn (the only moment when do damage) they aren't in cover. And in the next batte turns you need the 5 completely inside or above a terrain element. I also think that they are the best LoB unit.

Yes, absolutely - what I meant is that this cover bonus is very useful to counteract shooting (probably the biggest threat our BKs have to face😞 the last thing you want with your BKs is to get charged (+1 saves because to cover is nothing compared to the loss of the D3 damage output), and, once they do make the charge, ideally there's nothing left around them after they're done. Against units with no rend, they're still tough as nails (+ mystic shield they become hilarious...)

5 hours ago, Sartxac said:

today VLoZD with ethereal amulet and aura of dark majesty can't do nothing vs other actual monster (as Maw Krusha, bloodthirster of rage, 6 gore grunta, etc) because the damage that he does is poor.

With is own command ability (re-roll all failed hits for 1 CP), our very unreliable VLoZDs become much more reliable. Yes, you can't always one-shot a Maw Krusha (you definitely can, though! ), but with the amulet plus the aura you might very well survive a second turn (healing  [chalice, vile transference] helps...), and at that point you often come out on top. Plus, in many realms there are relatively cheap +1 hit spells... and at that point, your VLoZDs can do absolute wonders. I do agree with you that it will always be a a matter of spikey dice rolls with this lad: even when, say, all of your 4 maws attacks make it in, you could inflict either 4 or 24 damage - fluctuations are there and are huge, but buffs can really help him shine against big things. Also, if you just so happen to run two VLoZDs in your army... a double shooting + charge from them = almost everything turns in to gory chunks of bleeding meat (for the greater glory of our beautiful Queen, of course).

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4 hours ago, Thamalys said:

Also, if you just so happen to run two VLoZDs in your army... a double shooting + charge from them = almost everything turns in to gory chunks of bleeding meat (for the greater glory of our beautiful Queen, of course).

I have never rented use two dragons. 880p in LoB for a poor damage outpout. Though I use his cp he only do 10 wounds vs unit with +3 save or 16,85 to +6 save and missile attact that do 3 with rend -3 (is a very good shoot). Isn't bad, but we are paying 440p. 

In my county I use this dragon, i'm not considering this as a bad minitiaure but neither good. We don't have still mount trait, we have good arteacts but don't have good battlations for take advantatge of this (only deathmarch or legion of sacrament for sacrament legion) or good methods for win more cp. For me is a standard hero for 440p.

I'm wrong when compare hero monster of a army that have any type of units (monsters, cavalry, good wizards, standard fliyng units as Vargheist, good hordes, etc) vs hero monster of a army that only is good killing units in melee (as ironjawz). 

Edited by Sartxac

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13 hours ago, Sartxac said:

I have never rented use two dragons. 880p in LoB for a poor damage outpout. Though I use his cp he only do 10 wounds vs unit with +3 save or 16,85 to +6 save and missile attact that do 3 with rend -3 (is a very good shoot). Isn't bad, but we are paying 440p. 

In my county I use this dragon, i'm not considering this as a bad minitiaure but neither good. We don't have still mount trait, we have good arteacts but don't have good battlations for take advantatge of this (only deathmarch or legion of sacrament for sacrament legion) or good methods for win more cp. For me is a standard hero for 440p.

I'm wrong when compare hero monster of a army that have any type of units (monsters, cavalry, good wizards, standard fliyng units as Vargheist, good hordes, etc) vs hero monster of a army that only is good killing units in melee (as ironjawz). 

You are right, dragon isnt as great as some other monsters but it is still solid. I run 2 of them (and neferata) and then they are very durrable. Since I have multiple targets, enemy cannot focus all of them.  And eventhough there are many more killy monsters now,  most of them are heroes and they get destroyed by orb of enchantment pretty well.

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If you're not running LoB's battalion, what are the thoughts on 2 VLoZD's vs. 1 VLoZD & Prince Vhordrai? My thoughts are, you could give the VLoZD his own command ability at the start of the Hero phase and then after that use Prince Vhordrai's command ability to allow the VLoZD to pile in and attack in the Hero phase, rerolling all misses. Either give him the Ethereal Amulet or Orb of Enchantment. I just wish we had access to better Battalions.

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1 hour ago, BaylorCorvette said:

If you're not running LoB's battalion, what are the thoughts on 2 VLoZD's vs. 1 VLoZD & Prince Vhordrai? My thoughts are, you could give the VLoZD his own command ability at the start of the Hero phase and then after that use Prince Vhordrai's command ability to allow the VLoZD to pile in and attack in the Hero phase, rerolling all misses. Either give him the Ethereal Amulet or Orb of Enchantment. I just wish we had access to better Battalions.

If you dont run the batalion, then I would say vhordrei is better as second dragon since you dont have artefact/trait for him. 

With neferata I would consider 2 normal dragons but without her i would play vhordrei  and general with aura of dark majesty. Would depend on the rest of the list. Without casting modifieres it is very close since quickblood has just slightly bellow 50% chance to fail and without it vhordrai might not be worth it.  On the other hand his breath is amazing at sniping characters. 

Personaly I would take vhordrei indouble dragons no neferata lists but I woukd try to take corpse cart/mortis engine to boost casting, not just for vhordrei but for necromancers too (without neferata you rly need at least one, 2 are better). 

 

Edit: I am using vhordrei regulary in legion of night with claw artefact and played it under soulblight with necromantic bloodline and both options improved vhordrei power by alot.

Edited by ZLee Syn

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The big dilemma I'm having is trying to balance a fluffy list that is still reasonably competitive. I made some really nice Blood Knight conversions, so I'm working on a list that has a VLoZD as a general with Aura of Dark Majesty, Prince Vhordrei, ten Blood Knights and then modify from there. I REALLY wish we had better Battalion options because Orb of Enchantment is so good but not so sure it's worth taking over Ethereal Amulet on the VLoZD..

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