AoS 2 - Legion of Blood Discussion

[Deadkitten]

It did but there was too much of a disparity.  I didn't know until after that he wasn't running an artifact.  I had the Orb, Pinions and the Sanguine Blur CA on my general.  I was able to take out his hero along with the knights.  The ability to shield them with the wolves like this is huge.  I then either move them out of the way or fall them back and then just charge in the knights.  I think there's some frustration in my group with the Blood Knights at this level.

[Lightbox]

On ‎7‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 12:22 PM, Deadkitten said:

It did but there was too much of a disparity.  I didn't know until after that he wasn't running an artifact.  I had the Orb, Pinions and the Sanguine Blur CA on my general.  I was able to take out his hero along with the knights.  The ability to shield them with the wolves like this is huge.  I then either move them out of the way or fall them back and then just charge in the knights.  I think there's some frustration in my group with the Blood Knights at this level.

Ooh wow that's really cool to hear! Perhaps I shall have to invest in some extra wolves!

[Lightbox]

Does anyone reckon the blood palanquin has a place? Even in casual?

 

I have a fun conversion idea for one or a mortis engine for a legion of blood / soulblight. And wondered if it could work in a list 

[Goddin]

22 hours ago, Lightbox said:

Does anyone reckon the blood palanquin has a place? Even in casual?

 

I have a fun conversion idea for one or a mortis engine for a legion of blood / soulblight. And wondered if it could work in a list 

It works very well with a Court of Nuhlahmia list, where it is required.  If you put it with 2 VLoZDs and neferata nearby, when they kill a hero they all get the bonus attacks.  This is really deadly when you are adding 3 more attacks (including a maw attack) to each of the VLoZDs.  It also frustrates your opponent who not only lost a hero, you were made stronger by it.

[Lightbox]

42 minutes ago, Goddin said:

It works very well with a Court of Nuhlahmia list, where it is required.  If you put it with 2 VLoZDs and neferata nearby, when they kill a hero they all get the bonus attacks.  This is really deadly when you are adding 3 more attacks (including a maw attack) to each of the VLoZDs.  It also frustrates your opponent who not only lost a hero, you were made stronger by it.

I do have nef... So this would be nice to be able to do a court but a lot of points i can't spend on blood knights with two dragons ?

[jjb070707]

Fellow Legionaries,

What do you believe the most effective battleline set up currently is?

Do you feel we too should be adopting the standard: 40 Skeleton Warriors, 5 Dire Wolves, 30 Grimghast Reapers

I am not convinced that we ought to shell out 360 points (and more importantly 135 USD) for the reapers. 

Pro to the Reapers: 

Extremely resilient battleline against things we would otherwise be weak to like blood sisters in the DoK.

High damage output (60 attacks/30(45) hits / 20(30) wounds at rend 1) (reaped like corn factored in)

fast movement

excellent target for command point resummon

easier to return via allegiance abilities 

Cons to the Reapers: 

Expensive in cost- alternatively we could have 10 Direwolves for battleline and an additional 5 blood knights, or another 40 skeletons and a necromancer

Larger unit footprint for resummon as compared to direwolves- debatable benefit as they would also control more of the battlefield

Verdict: The considerable upsides on paper to the reapers are pronounced, but they are finding a home in other legion lists primarily because of their durability , mobility, and damage against armored targets. As the legion of blood, we are already quite mobile and efficient at dispensing staggering numbers of rend -1 attacks. So our primary usage for reapers would be to stand and box other large battleline or blendy units. In place of such a tactic a screen of direwolves (or 2 which could be acquired for similar points) and a countercharge from one of our famous vampire units might be much more effective. The reapers are by no means bad, but I am yet unconvinced as to their superiority in our legions to the extent that they improve a legion of sacrament or grand host.  Hold off on buying into the GGR hype for now

As always, feel free to contradict me, debate my claims, or provide actual or anecdotal evidence as to why we need to be on team Grimghast Reaper.

Cheers,

Joe

[Lemon Knuckles]

Wait?  GGR are battleline in LON??

[jjb070707]

46 minutes ago, Lemon Knuckles said:

Wait?  GGR are battleline in LON??

Discussion in other threads seem to indicate such, and that they are the new go to for death battleline. I guess since they gained the keyword in the FAQ for legions of nagash. If that isn't the case than there is no need to even debate their usage for us, it strongly swings into the "no" category.

[Lemon Knuckles]

I don't think that's right.  Chainrasp, yes, but I'm pretty sure GGR are battleline only for NH.

[KoalaSnok]

GGR are only battleline in Nighthaunt, not in LoN. They are indeed common in many LoN lists since their release, but as a hammer unit, not as battleline. 

[Honk]

After putting all my money into fenrisian wolves because Gdubs had no dire wolves left, I‘ll be damned if I ride my hard earned bucks into hell for the next hyped plastic...

power wise it’s 10models with 10 wounds for 140points  pretty fast 20 attacks most of the time rerolling with a rend and a good save... 

don‘t know how they perform against 10 puppies which are 20 wounds for 120 points 20attacks (also wounding on 3 on a charge). But worse save...

Fluff wise in a legions of blood i‘d  run wolves (but I‘m not into the nighthaunt look), power wise I guess the reapers have a slight advantage, especially against high rend/good save opponents 

[jjb070707]

If they are just a hammer lets consider them to their nearest analog, a blood knight. 20 reapers put out 40 attacks, 20 (30) hits, 13.33 wounds (20) at D1 rend -1 (reaped like corn bonus)

5 Blood knights charging in the LoB put out: 21 attacks, 14 hits, 9.333 wounds at D3 damage rend 1 plus an additional 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds at D1 rend 0

This suggests that at fewer points, more mobility, and a smaller footprint, our go to hammer unit that is equally effective against large and small targets is similar in damage efficiency to reapers. Granted they cannot be resummoned, but are near in durability against rendless attacks, and with their mobility would only be deployed when they could kill a target, or survive the counterattack.

My money is still on the beloved blood knight here for our hammer.

[Lemon Knuckles]

Can't disagree with you on any of that Joe as it applies to LoB.

[Deadkitten]

I concur.  Your analysis seems pretty solid.  Given the ability of the Knights to dish out damage, I'm just looking for lots of bodies that can stick around.

 

I've been contemplating taking my screens up to 10.

[Deadkitten]

OK.  I think I'm finally ready to talk about my poor showing at Midwest Meltdown.

R1 vs Sylvaneth playing the Meteor mission. 

This guy was a great opponent.  He was 9th at Adepticon and took Best Order at the event.  I deployed trying to cover as much ground as I could, banking on my speed to be able to redeploy if I needed to.  He gave me 2nd turn so he could get forests down.  I ran the large wolf unit in the center as far forward as I could.  He summoned the archers with Alariel and did a number over on my general.  I completely forgot my hero entire hero phase so wasn't able to heal up with the chalice.  I lost my general next turn and gave up a charge on a unit of Blood Knights on my right, which was, of course, where the objective ended up landing.  I wasn't able to redeploy my left fast enough to compensate.  Major Loss

R2 vs Mortal Nurgle  playing better part of valor

He had the big unit of Marauders with the triple save and a couple units of Chaos Knights doing a classic Pincer.  I responded with a Refused Flank.  Sent 2 units of Blood Knights and a Vamp lord into that center marauder unit.  Thought it might be a mistake once I realized what I ran into, but the Dragon, Knights and wolves were more than enough for the Knights and Blightkings on my right.  He burned that objective early and it was smooth sailing from there.  Major Win.

R3 vs Grots playing Relocation Orb

Boy do nets really suck.  I just had no idea what I was running into.  I double tapped Pinions T1 and over extended my General and blundered him away.  The Fanatics wigged me out and I played too conservatively because of it.  Major Loss.

R4 vs Death playing the one where Artifacts and Wizards matter

He got first turn and just bum rushed the objectives.  He was deployed Skelly block, vargheists, VLoZD w Dogs, Vargheists, skelly block.  I was Big Dogs, BK, BK, BK VLoZD.  His Necro and Vamp Lord out paced the Skelly block on the left.  I agonized over burning a CP on the dogs to give them +1 A and didn't.  They dropped the Necro to 1 wound but the Skelly block caught up and it just became a mess until the end of the game.  It ended up losing it for me.  On the other side, the Dragon hit the skelly block and chomped through them.  I had took that objective early.  I kept feeding one of the Vargheists dogs but they eventually killed it and sent a BK unit into the other that dropped it in a turn.  My general missed Pinions twice which slowed me down a bit but I eventually dropped his VLoZD and took the center.  We had to stop early, like turn 3.  Another turn and my center would have been able to hit that second skelly block tabling him and a turn after that, I would have taken him on VPs.  But we had to call it so it was a Major Loss.  Then, I got to talking to the paint judge and completely forgot about turning in my score sheet so got zeroed out on kill points.  Oh well.

R5 vs Nurgle playing a bit of generic mission.  we each had 2 objectives we needed to defend/attack.

I completely split my force and really weighted it towards one side.  He set up pretty evenly with flies and Marauder horse in the center.  I had such success breaking the Nurgle Marauder Anvil in G2, I thought I would try again.  This anvil was WAY better, 30 plaguebearers backed up by a GUO.  The terrain gummed me up a bit and my opponent blundered by not continuing the additional -1 to hit debuff.  I eventually got through the block and he had to retreat the GUO onto his objective.  If I had gotten a double turn I would have won.  As it was, he got priority, was able to get his flies over in time and summon more plaguebearers between me and the GUO/Objective.  Minor win to me on kill points.

 

So a bit disappointing actually.  My inexperience continues to come through and I make stupid mistakes.  I wrote "Hero Phase" on my hand after that first game.  Honestly, I'll probably be doing it again...  I'm not sure about my artifact load out.  It was a great ace up my sleeve for Sylvaneth, I should have used it vs the Grots but figured I could save it for the general instead of the Shaman I was up against, and took out the VLoZD.  The Ethereal artifact on the VLoZD is probably just better.  Not sure about the unit of 30 wolves.  I think liquidating the unit to go to 10/10/10/10 might be better than 30/5/5/5.  I'll need to try it out.  The Dragon was good when it was but 440!  That's another BK unit backed up by a Vamp Lord and a Wolf screen to boot!  Whatever, it's a dragon.  The +1A LoB buff on it seems stupid good.  

I'm definitely interested in any comments or observations anyone has.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Deadkitten

[Honk]

Last week in a 1k game with my FEC, I forgot to keep my king in buff range to my big horror unit. And I even moved him in the right direction, humming stupidly, measuring the distance in the melee phase...

and learning through pain.

if you‘re really undecided about the vlozd, just try it out, the bloodknights get +1 attack too. And I’m currently thinking about the coven throne for a vamp army, that rerolling 1s could really be good.

And as you stated, you lost because of stupidity, either not knowing the opponent or forgetting things. 

That means there is hope for your list ??

Wish you all the best for your next run at championship 

 

[jjb070707]

I propose a two fold discussion point. 

The first of which being, the wisdom of running double dragon lists in a semi competitive setting. I feel like the threat saturation of two dragons is overwhelming, and they are quite durable if given proper artifacts and support.

The second, which only can be debated if you first see wisdom in two dragons, is to upgrade one of them into Prince Vhordrai. I see this as a huge benefit. The combination of a general trait, artifact, and the LoB buffs turn the non prince into a priority target, or at least a tough choice between shooting him and the combat Prince. In doing so, you can probably get a few opponents to "split fire" and try to weaken both dragons outside of their best profile. 

This plays right into the Legion of Blood, as we pop chalice, use a vampire lore spell, and all of a sudden the full force of two healthy dragons crash into your line. They buff each other with command abilities, and have a good chance on the charge of destroying every single non morathi in the game. Coupled with something like the orb of enchantment, frees you from any retaliation as well. 

The downside to this is a commitment of artifact, command trait, and 920 points, but man does it seem like an unwinnable flank for an opponent. The bulk to the dragons facilitates multicharges as well, making it hard to just tie the flank up with chaff.

Additionally, the threat this poses takes pressure off what I'd imagine to be a couple units of dogs running around, some blood knights countercharging, and a block of skeletons sitting somewhere and being in the way.

I guess I really want to give double dragon a go, anyone else succeed with double dragon post FAQ?

Thanks,

Joe

[Goddin]

I won a local tourney with a 3 dragon list (one was Vhodrai).  In a semi-competitive environment, it makes target priority hard for the enemy, and it is just so much damage coming in so fast.

I'm seriously considering the 4 dragon list, painting being the major stop on it.  VLoZD x4, wolves x3, Chronomatic Cogs.

PS, being more serious, Nef, VLoZD x2, Vhodrai, wolves x3, Chronomatic Cogs looks good.

PPS, VLoZD x2, Vhodrai, Reiknor, Cogs, 10 wolves x2, 20 Chainrasp Horde might be my new list.

Every time someone says "you don't have enough bodies for objectives" I just think "I will kill the other guy's bodies so fast it won't matter."

[Lemon Knuckles]

34 minutes ago, Goddin said:

I won a local tourney with a 3 dragon list (one was Vhodrai).  In a semi-competitive environment, it makes target priority hard for the enemy, and it is just so much damage coming in so fast.

I'm seriously considering the 4 dragon list, painting being the major stop on it.  VLoZD x4, wolves x3, Chronomatic Cogs.

PS, being more serious, Nef, VLoZD x2, Vhodrai, wolves x3, Chronomatic Cogs looks good.

PPS, VLoZD x2, Vhodrai, Reiknor, Cogs, 10 wolves x2, 20 Chainrasp Horde might be my new list.

Every time someone says "you don't have enough bodies for objectives" I just think "I will kill the other guy's bodies so fast it won't matter."

I really like your PPS!  Adding Reiknor is an inspired decision, and goes a long way toward mitigating my concern with these kinds of lists that want to use Cogs but have no casting buffs.  He can be tricksy in other ways too.  

Also a decent amount of bodies and screening to play around with.  I'd be tempted to experiment with dropping one of the VLoZD for a unit of Blood Knights, a Vamp Lord and an extra CP (?).  

Nice work man.

[jjb070707]

1 hour ago, Lemon Knuckles said:

I really like your PPS!  Adding Reiknor is an inspired decision, and goes a long way toward mitigating my concern with these kinds of lists that want to use Cogs but have no casting buffs.  He can be tricksy in other ways too.  

Also a decent amount of bodies and screening to play around with.  I'd be tempted to experiment with dropping one of the VLoZD for a unit of Blood Knights, a Vamp Lord and an extra CP (?).  

Nice work man.

Copying off you I came up with this. If cogs doesn't seem necessary dropping 5 wolves, and cogs frees up the space for a Vampire lord on Nightmare as well.

Allegiance: Legion of Blood

LEADERS Prince Vhordrai (480)

Vampire Lord On Zombie Dragon (440) - Deathlance & Shield & Chalice

Necromancer (110)

Reikenor the Grimhailer (180) - Allies

UNITS 5 x Dire Wolves (60)

10 x Dire Wolves (120)

5 x Blood Knights (240)

40 x Skeleton Warriors (280) -Ancient Blades

ENDLESS SPELLS Chronomantic Cogs (60)

TOTAL: 1970

Edited July 27, 2018 by jjb070707

[Goddin]

Aristocracy of Blood on a VLoZD and cogs together makes your dragons have a reliable threat range of 25 inches.  (14 movement, +2 for Cogs, 7 inch charge (58%, plus a reroll) and +2 for Cogs).  You charge your general last so all the dragons (2 or 3) all have the re-roll on the charge.

Since most armies start 24 inches apart, I find that opponents literally dread my army when it goes on the table.  A good friend and solid competitive player said "playing this army makes my stomach churn."  I took that as a compliment.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Goddin

[Honk]

Thought about a double dragon list with the coven throne...rerolling hit&wounds of 1 sounds nice and had style...

some bats, some wolves, necro with 60 zombers and the party Waggon...

[jjb070707]

On 7/27/2018 at 11:55 AM, Honk said:

Thought about a double dragon list with the coven throne...rerolling hit&wounds of 1 sounds nice and had style...

some bats, some wolves, necro with 60 zombers and the party Waggon...

@Honk What exactly does a coven throne add to that list? It's warscroll doesn't mention rerolling 1s. It seems to just have a situational command ability, and an unlikely to  trigger, but powerful ability to summon a vampire lord. Is the battalion that uses the coven throne where we get access to rerolls? And if so is it worth a "tax" of a coven throne to unlock, as the throne itself seems like a low to mid tier support piece in an army that doesn't need to rely on support as much due to mobility and shock damage.

[KoalaSnok]

37 minutes ago, jjb070707 said:

@Honk What exactly does a coven throne add to that list? It's warscroll doesn't mention rerolling 1s. It seems to just have a situational command ability, and an unlikely to  trigger, but powerful ability to summon a vampire lord. Is the battalion that uses the coven throne where we get access to rerolls? And if so is it worth a "tax" of a coven throne to unlock, as the throne itself seems like a low to mid tier support piece in an army that doesn't need to rely on support as much due to mobility and shock damage.

You are looking at an old warscroll.  

[Honk]

1 hour ago, jjb070707 said:

What exactly does a coven throne add to that list?

Style and b***ch and some more style...

competetive wise...meeeh little bit

Working hard on that pimp waggon style...

then the command ability gives Rerolls of 1 for hit/wound/save for a death unit (zombers or the dragons). Then the spell 3d6vs bravery or you cannot attack this model... fall in love puny little mawcrusher/stardrake I‘ll only sip a bit

 12 attacks 3+\3+ 1dmg, 1 3+4+ d3dmg, 6 ghost attacks...

3x invocation + self healing

for 260 points....

did I mention style, and flair and Magic...mobility

what are those sweet ladies NOT bringing to the fields 

 

Haven’t tried them yet, but on paper they look pretty nice. With that big base, they can screen, while beguile protects them from being attacked...

Thx for asking, getting all hyped to finish them up and give them ladies a ride through the countryside 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Honk