AoS 2 - Legion of Blood Discussion

[WinnerDave]

57 minutes ago, Thamalys said:

I've managed to roll some dice during the weekend - a very small tournament divided in non-interacting "clusters" of 4 people each. Probably the way forward, until we get rid of the Plague... a discussion for another day, perhaps; for now, I am just massively grateful to the TO who persevered and made it happen - legend.

Anyway, Legion of Blood. Three games in (two major losses, one major win) I thought I share with you a few thoughts.

The Games

• The List: VLoZD (general, Aura of Dark majesty, Orb, Pinions), Vhordrai (Vile Transference), Necromancer (Overwhelming Dread); three units of 5 dogs, 2 units of 5 Blood Knights, 20 Reapers, cheeky Bat Swarms (2000 pts on the nose).
• Game 1 [against Khorne, 4 units of 6 Bloodcrushers and a Deamon Prince, Startstrike] - Very, very, very close. We run out of time and played it out quickly - made a couple of silly mistakes (I blame the hurry, but really I can only blame myself) and lost it by a couple of points. The tools were there - no question, the problem was that in two different occasions my opponent will have tabled me if he did get the double turn (which I consistently negated to him throughout the game).
• Game 2 [against Deepkin, you know which list, Total Conquest] - tabled in turn 3, classic. I genuinely did what I could, but I have only that many screens against stuff that flies (which flies itself some 16" and then charges in your face). The tools were not there, but the same holds for most factions out there against eels anyway. It could have been a different game if I had won the priority for turn 3, but hey - that's Deepkin, that's always the case.
• Game 3 [against Bonereapers, Katakros, two Crawlers, 10,10 and 40 Mortek Guard, The Better Part of Valour]. With this one I had the opportunity to keep my battle line (the dogs) in the grave until I managed to delete the two small units of Mortek Guard (the 40-man one... no point), and at that point the points were in my favour. Definitely a good battleplan for this list (very fast, can delete things quickly if no screens are around)

The Units

• The dogs are amazing - so much utility for 70 points... they win games, those furry buggers.
• Vhordrai... it is a terrific distraction and when it connects (it needs his spell off, otherwise it can and will bounce and a 7 to cast is not great) it's mayhem, but... I don't know, guys. I know I claimed that given the latest points drop The Prince is now a viable option, and he is, but maybe another VLoZD is equally good - and I need those 20 pts more for my next list (to squeeze in a Coven Throne!). His command ability, while amazing on paper, it's really hard to use in an objective game -if you have two dragons in one place, chances are you are doing something wrong.
• The Necromancer is virtually useless. Yes, his spells are great, but he is very slow, he can't keep up with the Reapers - which you should always suicide in turn 1 and get back in turn 2, that's how you change the tide, they loose points you don't , easy as that. He also dies very quickly and it's 130 points. He's going, the Reapers are largely self-sufficient and are not meant to do a ton of damage or to stick around for very long.
• The bats are great for what they do, but a -1 to hit is not going to do miracles against a shooting list - 80 pts... again, not sure.
• Blood knights are phenomenal, if very difficult to manoeuvre. I think that a blood knights-based list (6 units of 5?) would be competitive, I just can't bring myself to convert more than the 10 I have at the moment.

The issues

• Cover. AoS is very loose in terms of terrain, and in most cases we don't get any practical opportunity to get our units in cover - something we desperately need with e.g. Blood Knights
• Drops. Being consistently out-dropped  is a problem, as if you try to mitigate the double turn you loose a ton of damage potential. Solutions? Perhaps Castellans of the Crimson Keep really is the way to go, although you pay quite a few points for that and most factions still have much better options to go down to 2-4 drops. 

That's it. Comments/suggestions welcome - I know that the hopes for a new Soulblight battle tome are on the rise, but let's work with the tools at our disposal for the time being... any thoughts?

Hey mate, I was the other LoB player there, was hoping to grab a chat, but a) there wasn't much time and b) we were told not to

Ha ha oh well, next time you're in Poole/B'mouth we'll have to swap notes. 

Take it easy mate.

[Thamalys]

17 hours ago, WinnerDave said:

Hey mate, I was the other LoB player there, was hoping to grab a chat, but a) there wasn't much time and b) we were told not to

Ha ha oh well, next time you're in Poole/B'mouth we'll have to swap notes. 

Take it easy mate.

Cheers mate, same here - so weird to not be able to talk to people... crazy times!

Always happy to take the trip to Poole for a game or two, with some luck we'll manage to catch up at some point. Meanwhile, let's keep rocking these Dragons  

[WinnerDave]

I feel the need to share a beautiful moment from last night's game against a Tzeentch army.  Battle for my Ass, block of 40 lowly skellies protecting one of the flank objectives get charged from a very confident block of 20 Tzaangors.  My Skellies got to fight first because of other combat priorities.  Managed to kill 11 of the Tzaangors and took a half dozen casualties in return.  With no command point to inspire them, the remaining 9 ran from battle shock thanks to the -2 bravery debuff.

I lost the game because Vhor-daddy got took a full screamer charge to the face and my goodness TZ is a fast army, but the above incident was so very satisfying.

Edited October 29, 2020 by WinnerDave

[El Antiguo Guardián]

 

Yesterday I upload a video on Patreon talking about this list as an special for Halloween (the open video on Youtube for Halloween was about Ghost).

I think that If I need to play LON on a tournament this would be my list, with a second artifact on the vampire lord (probably the LOB "dispell scroll"). The orb is amazing, also the guard and the BK are so cheap. Opinions?

[Thamalys]

23 hours ago, El Antiguo Guardián said:

I think that If I need to play LON on a tournament this would be my list, with a second artifact on the vampire lord (probably the LOB "dispell scroll"). The orb is amazing, also the guard and the BK are so cheap. Opinions?

Hey man, maybe it's just me but I can't really see the pictures you posted.

Also, you mean LoB or LoN? I have nothing against Mannfred enthusiasts, but if you meant LoN there must be a thread for that Legion somewhere on TGA?

Anyway, the Orb is phenomenal - when you have a big scary Hero to deal with, if not is literally useless. Sometimes that's the case, sometimes is not - I think it's fair to say the Orb is a rather situational artefact. But yes, definitely, if you can take two artefacts, one of them should be the Orb in my opinion. 

The Blood Knights are  now cheap. Not dirty cheap, but cheap enough to consider a seriously BK-heavy list. If you give up on a dragon or two, you can literally spam them, probably with decent results. Potential problems: (1.) I hate spam lists (2.) I can't be bothered to convert any more or - Nagash forbid - buy the original models...

[El Antiguo Guardián]

1 hour ago, Thamalys said:

Hey man, maybe it's just me but I can't really see the pictures you posted.

Also, you mean LoB or LoN? I have nothing against Mannfred enthusiasts, but if you meant LoN there must be a thread for that Legion somewhere on TGA?

Anyway, the Orb is phenomenal - when you have a big scary Hero to deal with, if not is literally useless. Sometimes that's the case, sometimes is not - I think it's fair to say the Orb is a rather situational artefact. But yes, definitely, if you can take two artefacts, one of them should be the Orb in my opinion. 

The Blood Knights are  now cheap. Not dirty cheap, but cheap enough to consider a seriously BK-heavy list. If you give up on a dragon or two, you can literally spam them, probably with decent results. Potential problems: (1.) I hate spam lists (2.) I can't be bothered to convert any more or - Nagash forbid - buy the original models...

LoB. 

I have the same opinion about the Orb, but in my opinion is one of the things that make our army available for competition. If the enemy didn´t have that hero... well, we lost the artefact, but for tournaments you need that option. And yes, I have the same opinion about the Blood Knights. I´m using only 10 on the list but they can beat lots of things.

The list is:

 

- VLZD general with lance, aristocracy of blood, orb and pinions

- Vampire lord with wings, amaranthine orb and probably our dispell scroll artefact

- 2*40 Chainrasp

- 5 Dire Wolves

- 10 Blood Knights

- Dolorous Guard with 2*5 Hexwraiths

- 1 Extra CP

[BaylorCorvette]

I have a somewhat similar list that I've been wanting to try out ever since GW confirmed Dolorous Guard are legit. But thanks to COVID it has really slowed down tournaments here. The list is:

-VLoZD: Artefact: Soulbound Garments, Command Trait: Aura of Dark Majesty, Spell: Vile Transference. 440 pts

-Vampire Lord winged Horrow: Aretfact: Orb of Enchantment, Spell: Amethystine Pinions. 140 pts

-Necromancer: Spell: (undecided). 130 pts

-Blood Knights x5. 180 pts

-Blood Knights x5. 180 pts

-Dire Wolves x5. 70 pts

-Dire Wolves x5. 70 pts

-Chainrasp x10. 80 pts

-Grimghast Reapers x20. 320 pts

-Hexwraiths x5. 130 pts

-Hexwraiths x5. 130 pts

-The Dolorous Guard. 120 pts

Total Points: 1990/2000

I do have concerns with how slow the necromancer is so possibly drop him. However that will leave me with only two Heroes. I have another list similar to this but drop the Grimghast Reapers and the Necromancer and pick up Prince Vhordrai.

[Thamalys]

19 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

-Necromancer: Spell: (undecided). 130 pts

Overwhelming Dread, all day long. It casts on a 5+ only, an -1 to hit is BIG. -1 to bravery is not bad either in LoB, if you manage to stack that up with a unit of Blood Knights nearby that'd be -3... not bad!

However, I did drop the Necromancer from my list because of your fears exactly: he is slow and it is not a key piece, your units can do without him. Tough choice...

22 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

I have another list similar to this but drop the Grimghast Reapers and the Necromancer and pick up Prince Vhordrai.

Risky... not so many bodies on the table. But then again, we can only try stuff out and see how it goes, I guess. Same here, btw, with COVID around there's not many games to be had, sadly... 

[BaylorCorvette]

Just now, Thamalys said:

 

Risky... not so many bodies on the table. But then again, we can only try stuff out and see how it goes, I guess. Same here, btw, with COVID around there's not many games to be had, sadly... 

Agreed on the low body count which is why I think in competitive play it wouldn't be as good. Plus people would likely snipe the Prince off the board before he got much of a chance to act. I'm just happy that the Dolorous Guard are something that is usable for LoB. I love my Vampires so much and was tired of them being out dated and not super competitive that I actually converted a bunch of models to make up my custom Khorne Vampire army, made up of primarily StD models with the mark of Khorne.

The models can be found in this thread: 

 

[Thamalys]

12 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

I love my Vampires so much and was tired of them being out dated and not super competitive that I actually converted a bunch of models to make up my custom Khorne Vampire army, made up of primarily StD models with the mark of Khorne.

Amazing stuff - well done! The one on top of the Manticore/Tyranid is gold...

Can I just ask, where the heck have you found all those VLoZD/Vhordrai helmets/heads (the winged ones, I mean)?!

Edited November 2, 2020 by Thamalys

[BaylorCorvette]

Just now, Thamalys said:

Amazing stuff - well done! The one on top of the Manticore/Tyranid is gold...

Can I just ask, where the heck have you found all those VLoZD/Vhordrai helmets/heads (the winged ones, I mean)?!

Thanks! The Vamp Lord (Mannfred model) on top of the kit bashed Hive Tyrant / Mawloc was my last conversion and the one I'm most proud of and had the most fun making.

All of the Vamp helmets I scored off of various Facebook bits trading groups I'm in. Mainly Flesh Eater players that had made Terrorgheist instead of Zombie Dragons and had the spare Vampire Lord bits. So I used the Head, Torso and Legs of the Vampire Lord and then the arms/weapons of the old Chaos Knights.

[Espy85]

2 hours ago, BaylorCorvette said:

I have a somewhat similar list that I've been wanting to try out ever since GW confirmed Dolorous Guard are legit. But thanks to COVID it has really slowed down tournaments here. The list is:

-VLoZD: Artefact: Soulbound Garments, Command Trait: Aura of Dark Majesty, Spell: Vile Transference. 440 pts

-Vampire Lord winged Horrow: Aretfact: Orb of Enchantment, Spell: Amethystine Pinions. 140 pts

-Necromancer: Spell: (undecided). 130 pts

-Blood Knights x5. 180 pts

-Blood Knights x5. 180 pts

-Dire Wolves x5. 70 pts

-Dire Wolves x5. 70 pts

-Chainrasp x10. 80 pts

-Grimghast Reapers x20. 320 pts

-Hexwraiths x5. 130 pts

-Hexwraiths x5. 130 pts

-The Dolorous Guard. 120 pts

Total Points: 1990/2000

I do have concerns with how slow the necromancer is so possibly drop him. However that will leave me with only two Heroes. I have another list similar to this but drop the Grimghast Reapers and the Necromancer and pick up Prince Vhordrai.

Hi guys, I haven't played for a while, but is it possible to play the dolorous guard with the legion of blood? When did GW confirm this?

[BaylorCorvette]

1 minute ago, Espy85 said:

Hi guys, I haven't played for a while, but is it possible to play the dolorous guard with the legion of blood? When did GW confirm this?

They validated the White Dwarf stuff as being matched play legal a month ago.

Any of the Legions can take Nighthaunt Battalions per an old FAQ, provided the battalion and all of the units meet the requirements (points, unit size, etc). The Dolorous Guard battalion cost and two units of five hexwraiths comes in just under 400 points, which is why it can be run in a Legions list.

[Espy85]

43 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

They validated the White Dwarf stuff as being matched play legal a month ago.

Any of the Legions can take Nighthaunt Battalions per an old FAQ, provided the battalion and all of the units meet the requirements (points, unit size, etc). The Dolorous Guard battalion cost and two units of five hexwraiths comes in just under 400 points, which is why it can be run in a Legions list.

Ok. Thanks for the answer, in fact now I also remember the FAQ, I haven't played LoN for a very long time and I forgot many things.

[El Antiguo Guardián]

New battle report, this time with the list I showed before. I played using UB because of covid-19, but I made some things in order to make it easy to understand.

 

 

[Erfon]

Hey mates! 

One question, what do you think about "walking death " comand trait, it just only one weapon  or all melee weapons ? 

In any case, do you think its a good trait for DLoZD? 

 

[Thamalys]

5 hours ago, Erfon said:

Hey mates! 

One question, what do you think about "walking death " comand trait, it just only one weapon  or all melee weapons ? 

In any case, do you think its a good trait for DLoZD? 

 

Just the Vampire Lord's weapon, i.e. either the sword or the lance, is affected by Walking Death. As a rule, “Command traits have no effect on attacks made by a general’s mount unless noted otherwise.” [Core Rules]. 

Personally, I don't think it's a great trait for a VLoZD unless your build doesn't care too much about bringing back summonable units that have been destroyed. If you do care, you want to maximise the chance for your general (the only one who can bring them back!) to stay alive, hence Aura of Dark Majesty (-1 to hit in the combat phase) would be a better pick, particularly coupled with Soulbound Garments or the Orb of Enchantment as artefacts. That's my go-to layout for my VLoZD general.

If, on the other hand, you only have Blood Knights in your list, you might as well try out a very Killy VLoZD with Walking Death, is not a bad one. It was much better when you could pick Artefacts of the Realms that gave you +1 to hit,  though, at that point it's mortal wounds on 5+, which wan't bad at all... hope this helps!

[BaylorCorvette]

I'm personally not a huge fan of "Walking Death" on a VLoZD. If you want him to be killy, use his built in command ability so he is re-rolling hits on his entire profile. I think you get more value out of Soulbound Garments or Orb of Enchantment. My personal go to would be Soulbound Garments with Dark Majesty and then a support hero (usually a Vampire Lord Flying Horror) with Orb of Enchantment that can come in and neutralize a Hero.

[Honk]

On 11/4/2020 at 6:21 PM, Thamalys said:

. If you do care, you want to maximise the chance for your general (the only one who can bring them back!) to stay alive,

One of the reasons every now and then the Necromancer has to step in as general, from the save spot within 40 skellis or 60 zombers...

being able to call back units and not care to much about the fate of your most aggressive piece 

[Thamalys]

What's better than two Vampire Lords on Zombie Dragon? Why, THREE Vampire Lords on Zombie Dragon!

Here's the latest addition to the Legion - this one was quite fun to put together... can't wait to have a go at a silly triple VLoZD list...

[Foxjoru]

Hi all! I've got a fair few death models but recently decided I wanted to repurpose to a more vampire orientated army. the LoB +1 attacks is pretty compelling too with some interesting artifacts to top it off.

I have 2 variations on a list I'd like some advice or feedback on. I'm trying to use some models I already own too.

I like the Castellans of the Crimson Keep Battalion its some units Id take anyway plus taking two artifacts is nice could take orb of enchantment to shut down if I need and then take something a bit silly like ring of domination. anyway, this.

• Battalion: Prince Vhordrai + 3x5 Blood Knights 1150pt
• Necro 130pt
• Vlord on steed 140pt
• Guardian of Souls 130pt
• 40 Chainrasp
• 2x10 Skellies
• Total 1990pt

Aim being the GoS & Necro support the big chainrasp down mid, Vlord as well. The battalion comes out the other side of the opponent and forces them to split their attention. Vlord could get over to the BKs to support them maybe? Id love the idea of soulscream bridge to get the Vlord in position to let the BKs reroll charges with the command trait but idk if I could fit that/swing that,

• Battalion: Prince Vhordrai + 3x5 Blood Knights 1150pt
• Necro 130pt
• Vlord 140pt
• Neferata 340pt
• 3x10 chainrasp
• Total 2000pt

Difference being I swapped the GoS and 30 rasps to fit in Neferata. Because I have the model & yes even though she takes up my general slot she is the blood queen & i think shes pretty cute. I feel like without the large block of chainrasp maybe the Necro is a bit redundant here but theres not many meaningful 130pt models i could replace with that I could think of? I feel witout that big rasp block also the midfield drive has no power & its all just a sandwich between Nef & the Castellans. Do you guys think Nef is worth taking at all? does anything think the second list looks good??

PS. Im fully aware I could save 20-30 pt taking dogs.

[Thamalys]

On 3/16/2021 at 9:46 AM, Foxjoru said:

Hi all! I've got a fair few death models but recently decided I wanted to repurpose to a more vampire orientated army. the LoB +1 attacks is pretty compelling too with some interesting artifacts to top it off.

I have 2 variations on a list I'd like some advice or feedback on. I'm trying to use some models I already own too.

I like the Castellans of the Crimson Keep Battalion its some units Id take anyway plus taking two artifacts is nice could take orb of enchantment to shut down if I need and then take something a bit silly like ring of domination. anyway, this.

• Battalion: Prince Vhordrai + 3x5 Blood Knights 1150pt
• Necro 130pt
• Vlord on steed 140pt
• Guardian of Souls 130pt
• 40 Chainrasp
• 2x10 Skellies
• Total 1990pt

Aim being the GoS & Necro support the big chainrasp down mid, Vlord as well. The battalion comes out the other side of the opponent and forces them to split their attention. Vlord could get over to the BKs to support them maybe? Id love the idea of soulscream bridge to get the Vlord in position to let the BKs reroll charges with the command trait but idk if I could fit that/swing that,

• Battalion: Prince Vhordrai + 3x5 Blood Knights 1150pt
• Necro 130pt
• Vlord 140pt
• Neferata 340pt
• 3x10 chainrasp
• Total 2000pt

Difference being I swapped the GoS and 30 rasps to fit in Neferata. Because I have the model & yes even though she takes up my general slot she is the blood queen & i think shes pretty cute. I feel like without the large block of chainrasp maybe the Necro is a bit redundant here but theres not many meaningful 130pt models i could replace with that I could think of? I feel witout that big rasp block also the midfield drive has no power & its all just a sandwich between Nef & the Castellans. Do you guys think Nef is worth taking at all? does anything think the second list looks good??

PS. Im fully aware I could save 20-30 pt taking dogs.

The battalion is ok-ish. Clever opponents will be able to counter your off-the-table move quite easily, because you have to declare which edge you pick and they all have to stay 9” away from any of you opponent’s models. 3 units of Blood Knights and the Prince are really hard to fit. It helps you with keeping the drops low, but still not worth it IMHO. In addition, Vhordrai is only worth it if bringing a VLoZD, which is very strong in LoB. I would drop the Prince and the battalion and bring a VLoZD instead, with some more points to spare.

Then, dogs. Man, you need the dogs - they are really, really excellent. Chainrasps are also excellent in either small units to screen (but dogs are better to that end) or big units to camp on objectives. Smelliest are a bit meh.

Don’t go near Neferata - she dies to a stiff breeze and we don’t have the CP to fuel her CA. Your general HAS to stay alive to bring stuff back. Pick a VLoZD and give him the Orb (pick your fights wisely, though, and in some games is useless) or even better the Garments. Dark majesty is a must. Keep him alive!

The first list has legs, the second one, IMHO, does not stand a chance. 

[Foxjoru]

8 hours ago, Thamalys said:

The battalion is ok-ish. Clever opponents will be able to counter your off-the-table move quite easily, because you have to declare which edge you pick and they all have to stay 9” away from any of you opponent’s models. 3 units of Blood Knights and the Prince are really hard to fit. It helps you with keeping the drops low, but still not worth it IMHO. In addition, Vhordrai is only worth it if bringing a VLoZD, which is very strong in LoB. I would drop the Prince and the battalion and bring a VLoZD instead, with some more points to spare.

Then, dogs. Man, you need the dogs - they are really, really excellent. Chainrasps are also excellent in either small units to screen (but dogs are better to that end) or big units to camp on objectives. Smelliest are a bit meh.

Don’t go near Neferata - she dies to a stiff breeze and we don’t have the CP to fuel her CA. Your general HAS to stay alive to bring stuff back. Pick a VLoZD and give him the Orb (pick your fights wisely, though, and in some games is useless) or even better the Garments. Dark majesty is a must. Keep him alive!

The first list has legs, the second one, IMHO, does not stand a chance. 

Thankyou for the reply! I was hoping someone would convince me they are good, it's a shame they are gorgeous but I agree forced general pick & I'm not using the CA 🤷 I did think that they could easily just not give me space to put them down.. but then if they did surely that's a lot of units they are leaving at home in their zone and they might be struggling to do that and take objectives? The other rationale for Vhordrai was using his CA on the occasions my Bloodknights are stuck in a combat with like 1-2 models I could have them delete them in the hero phase to free them up to charge down the next thing? Do you think that would work?

Think I'll get some wolves sometime they are good choice for minimum battleline  but I kinda like my big chainrasp tanky block as a single max unit, survive until a blood knight gets there or chew them down, think I need something to incentivise my opponent to come out to them? I've been thinking of a version that has no battalion and 10 BKs & has the 40 rasp & Nef. If I make the 2 min lines dogs I could probably upgrade her to VLoZD to have it both ways. I do really like that second artifact though

[Honk]

11 minutes ago, Foxjoru said:

I do really like that second artifact though

Think about the Dolorous Guard out of the WD as allies, two units of hexwraith to go with your VLoZD... or maybe even Neffi. With her as general, you loose a trait (😓) but with +12hp and the extra attacks from the guard you could kinda use her. Her spell is nice on 10 knights and her CP ability is useful, if she is healthy and near the action, which you wouldn’t want normally. 11hp on 4+ is a shame

And on the topic of being stuck in combat... retreat is an option! Just because it isn’t the heroic one doesn’t mean a repositioning might not be cunning. With Neffis spell even flying over your enemies (you’ll loose the charge buff, but sometimes)

[Foxjoru]

18 minutes ago, Honk said:

Think about the Dolorous Guard out of the WD as allies, two units of hexwraith to go with your VLoZD... or maybe even Neffi. With her as general, you loose a trait (😓) but with +12hp and the extra attacks from the guard you could kinda use her. Her spell is nice on 10 knights and her CP ability is useful, if she is healthy and near the action, which you wouldn’t want normally. 11hp on 4+ is a shame

And on the topic of being stuck in combat... retreat is an option! Just because it isn’t the heroic one doesn’t mean a repositioning might not be cunning. With Neffis spell even flying over your enemies (you’ll loose the charge buff, but sometimes)

Have seen this battalion actually, you can take hexwraiths in the army anyway can't you does it have to be as allies? Could be a cheaper way of getting that second artifact 🤔 Hexwraiths being summonable is a nice plus for gravesite use too I guess!