ZLee Syn Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 25 minutes ago, Rabidweasel said: Hi all, Managed to source some chaos knight i'll be converting into Blood Knights. Was wondering what people's thoughts are on this list? My concern is the lack of battleline which could cause me issues, and i know i'm going to be facing some Tzeentch armies this time round so not looking forward to the shooting! 1500 points is tricky to get hard hitting things into a list! Leaders VLoZD - General - Ethereal Amulet - Aura of Dark Magistracy - Pinions VL - Flying Horror - Vile Transference Battleline 20 x Chainrasps 5 x Dire Wolves 5x Dire Wolves Other 10 x Blood Knights 5 x Blood Knights This is 1480/1500 So with the spare 20 i was going to throw in a Suffocating Gravetide. Possible tweaks are take the VL on a nightmare to run better with the knights, but wanted them to be able to get VT off on the VLoZD so being able to jump over possible LoS blocking terrain is useful. I could drop 5 Blood Knights and take 40 Chainrasps or Skeletons, that leaves me with an odd 100 points so not sure what i could squeeze in with that? This looks good. I would take rasps instead of wolfs but I guess that is personal preference. Also I would consider necro instead of vampire for overwhelming dread. And finaly maybe separate 10 knights to 2x5. 7 or 8 dropsdoesnt make a diference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 Are people still running the Court of Nuhlamia at all? The list with Nef, 2x VLoZD, Palanquin and 3 x Chain Rasps / Wolves? I am almost done with my first Nighthaunt/Legion of Grief army and I'm looking to get in to something with big monsters, so LoB seems like a nice crossover considering I already have the battleline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZLee Syn Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Liquidsteel said: Are people still running the Court of Nuhlamia at all? The list with Nef, 2x VLoZD, Palanquin and 3 x Chain Rasps / Wolves? I am almost done with my first Nighthaunt/Legion of Grief army and I'm looking to get in to something with big monsters, so LoB seems like a nice crossover considering I already have the battleline. Just played it a week ago on a tournament (report few pages back) and it is certainly playable. It just punish every mistake quite hard but if you dont make them then it works great. Certainly strong against many armies (exept tzeentch, that one is extremly painful). After the tournament I switched it alittle and it is better in my opinion. Neferata with OD Ethereal dragon with transference Orb dragon with pinions Bloodseeker with spirit gale? (3 dices, doubles -1 to hit) 20 chainrasp 2x10 zombies Extra cp Court Also quite recently court list finished 2nd on one big tournament. He/she used 2 dragons with pinions, neferata, 5wolfs, 2x10 zombies and vampire lord with transference (no extra CP). Edited March 2, 2020 by ZLee Syn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabidweasel Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 3 hours ago, ZLee Syn said: This looks good. I would take rasps instead of wolfs but I guess that is personal preference. Also I would consider necro instead of vampire for overwhelming dread. And finaly maybe separate 10 knights to 2x5. 7 or 8 dropsdoesnt make a diference. I didn't think small units of rasps would be that viable? My theory behind the vamp over the necro was giving their CA to the VLoZD for even more attacks or one of the Blood Knight units. Plus extra attacks themselves being a vamp plus healing via Vile Transference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZLee Syn Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 14 minutes ago, Rabidweasel said: I didn't think small units of rasps would be that viable? My theory behind the vamp over the necro was giving their CA to the VLoZD for even more attacks or one of the Blood Knight units. Plus extra attacks themselves being a vamp plus healing via Vile Transference. Reroll to hit is better then extra atack for all of your vampiric units and you dont have command points to get both. Vampire is more mobile and has acces to transference (so you can take pinions on dragon) but it isnt reliable since it has high cast. And also you dont want to cast it every turn. On the other hand necro can have 2 amazing spells that are always great (overwhelming dread and fading vigor) And chaibrasps are great since they arent that slow, they have bodies and they dont die that fast + they are easier to heal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabidweasel Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 I see your thoughts there. So revised list: Leaders VLoZD - General - Ethereal Amulet - Aura of Dark Magistracy - Vile Transference Necro - Overwhelming Dread Battleline 20 x Chainrasps 10 x Chainrasps 10 x Chainrasps Other 5 x Blood Knights 5 x Blood Knights 5 x Blood Knights That's 1490/1500 - throw in a malevolent Malestrom? Just because why not? The VLoZD i could take as Prince V. But then would need to find 30 points, and i feel without back up or buffs to spell casting he may not perform as well at this points level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thamalys Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Rabidweasel said: I see your thoughts there. So revised list: Leaders VLoZD - General - Ethereal Amulet - Aura of Dark Magistracy - Vile Transference Necro - Overwhelming Dread Battleline 20 x Chainrasps 10 x Chainrasps 10 x Chainrasps Other 5 x Blood Knights 5 x Blood Knights 5 x Blood Knights That's 1490/1500 - throw in a malevolent Malestrom? Just because why not? The VLoZD i could take as Prince V. But then would need to find 30 points, and i feel without back up or buffs to spell casting he may not perform as well at this points level? The Necro is not a good choice - simply too slow. The Rasps don't do much damage even when attacking twice. Pick a VL (flying horror) instead, who is going to keep up with your BKs and give them +1 attack each. On that point: a unit of 15 BKs with a VL backing them up can raze almost everything, and that'll give you a 6 drops army. Never take Prince V unless you have another VLoZD. No command trait, no artefact, no extra LoB attack. The Rasps: yes, they're easier to heal than wolves, they are more resilient and they do a tad bit more damage, but they are slow. Wolves have won me many a game because of their 10" move. However, I do agree with what has been said above: personal preference on this one. The Necro and Prince V, on the other hand, I don't really think they have their place in a 1500 pts LoB list. Additional suggestion: put Vile Transference on the VL and Pinions on the VLoZD. Pinions scares people so badly it's just not true, - massive psychological warfare tool. Lastly: a malevolent Maelstrom is less of a good choice if compared to a Triumph - which can win you a game. Not only the Maelstrom barely does anything, but it takes one of your 2 casting slots... Edited March 2, 2020 by Thamalys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabidweasel Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Thamalys said: The Necro is not a good choice - simply too slow. The Rasps don't do much damage even when attacking twice. Pick a VL (flying horror) instead, who is going to keep up with your BKs and give them +1 attack each. On that point: a unit of 15 BKs with a VL backing them up can raze almost everything, and that'll give you a 6 drops army. Never take Prince V unless you have another VLoZD. No command trait, no artefact, no extra LoB attack. The Rasps: yes, they're easier to heal than wolves, they are more resilient and they do a tad bit more damage, but they are slow. Wolves have won me many a game because of their 10" move. However, I do agree with what has been said above: personal preference on this one. The Necro and Prince V, on the other hand, I don't really think they have their place in a 1500 pts LoB list. Additional suggestion: put Vile Transference on the VL and Pinions on the VLoZD. Pinions scares people so badly it's just not true, - massive psychological warfare tool. Lastly: a malevolent Maelstrom is less of a good choice if compared to a Triumph - which can win you a game. Not only the Maelstrom barely does anything, but it takes one of your 2 casting slots... So a block of 20 rasps and 2 x 5 wolves is what i was originally looking at with the Flying VL with Vile Tranference. So you suggest bunch the Blood Knights to one large block of 15 to run with the VL? I originally thought one of 10 one of 5 just so i can reach out to other targets if needed, then use the wolves to grab objectives, chain rasps to sit on an objective.... only 20 so not the hardest to shift, but will be annoying enough. Edited March 2, 2020 by Rabidweasel your filter thought i swore for some reason! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thamalys Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Rabidweasel said: So a block of 20 rasps and 2 x 5 wolves is what i was originally looking at with the Flying VL with Vile Tranference. Sounds good - I would still take 10 wolves instead of 20 rasps on the basis of their speed and the fact that they probably the best screens in the game (and you'll save 20 points...), but again, 20 Rasps is not a bad choice. 5 minutes ago, Rabidweasel said: So you suggest bunch the Blood Knights to one large block of 15 to run with the VL? I originally thought one of 10 one of 5 just so i can reach out to other targets if needed, then use the wolves to grab objectives, chain rasps to sit on an objective.... only 20 so not the hardest to ******, but will be annoying enough. Right, small vs big units of Blood Knights... it has been discussed multiple times, both have their advantages. The proS, in a nutshell: * 3 units of 5 - Much easier to get into cover, which could be massive against attacks with no rend (2+ save!!!) - Much more board control, which - in an objective-based game - is quite key. - Much more difficult to tag small units into combat, and even more so to tag multiple ones at the same time. more permissive * A single unit of 15 - For 1 CP you get thrice the benefit. - Can take out almost everything on the charge. To chomp through filthy stuff such as Petrifex or Fyreslayers you'll need that +1 attack from the VL and the re-roll all failed hits from the VLoZD, though. - They can tank some damage - 45 wounds with a 4+ (maybe 3+) save is something. To get the conS, just flip the two lists Two additional points: playing a unit off 15 BKs requires more skill than playing 3 units of 5. The latter setup is more permissive - one unit got tagged in a combat without the change of getting the charge? No problem, I have two more units. I guess in your case it comes down to play style: do you want to play for the objectives? 3 units is the way to go, but do remember that you don't have many body to start with, hordes are still going to outperform you. Picking the Rasps could be beneficial in this case. Do you want to screen and then smash everything on the board (that's me... that's what LoB are good at doing IMHO)? Than you need a big blob of 15. With their 16" guaranteed threat range, they can destroy multiple units at the same time, while the VLoZD deals with those pesky heroes... you see why I'd opt for dogs in this case. Don't make the mistake of thinking that screen+charge is a simple/silly strategy. It's very tricky to get everything right, position in particular. Hope this helps? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZLee Syn Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 8 minutes ago, Rabidweasel said: So a block of 20 rasps and 2 x 5 wolves is what i was originally looking at with the Flying VL with Vile Tranference. So you suggest bunch the Blood Knights to one large block of 15 to run with the VL? I originally thought one of 10 one of 5 just so i can reach out to other targets if needed, then use the wolves to grab objectives, chain rasps to sit on an objective.... only 20 so not the hardest to ******, but will be annoying enough. As I have said. Vampire lords command ability is not relevant since you dont have CPs to burn and If you do, reroll is way better. For me rasps worked great in 2000 court of nulahmia list since they can hold objectives better. I know that wolfs are more mobile but because of their bases, it might be sometimes hard to squeze them on point with endless legions. And from my experiance, solo vampire lord is almost never worth the points. Yes, it does look good on paper but you dont use both transference and comand ability that often and 5 wounds is just too little. Yes, necro is slow. But he can run every time (while other units will be charging so they cannot). But both spells are sooo good and flexible that you are not punished for not casting vanhel. Same for rasps. They will be running 99 percent of time since you dont want to charge with them. Just block enemy charges. But I guess 5 wolfs would bring more flexibility. Would still play 2 units of rasps and 1 unit of wolfs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 7 hours ago, ZLee Syn said: Reroll to hit is better then extra atack for all of your vampiric units and you dont have command points to get both. This is true, but just wanted to clarify that, as a general rule, bonus attacks are more valuable if you have fewer attacks to start with while re-rolls are more valuable if you have many attacks. You are correct that for most of our vampire units, the re-roll is more valuable, but I just wanted to point out that re-roll isn't always better. Say, if we simulate blood knights it fully supports your thesis. But, in comparison, if we simulate Morghasts with Halberds both buffs provide almost identical benefit: Finally, if we simulate something with a low number of attacks, say a single zombie in a big unit, the bonus attack is much more valuable. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZLee Syn Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, themortalgod said: This is true, but just wanted to clarify that, as a general rule, bonus attacks are more valuable if you have fewer attacks to start with while re-rolls are more valuable if you have many attacks. You are correct that for most of our vampire units, the re-roll is more valuable, but I just wanted to point out that re-roll isn't always better. Say, if we simulate blood knights it fully supports your thesis. But, in comparison, if we simulate Morghasts with Halberds both buffs provide almost identical benefit: Finally, if we simulate something with a low number of attacks, say a single zombie in a big unit, the bonus attack is much more valuable. Nice simulations. I study math (aplication of statistics and probability) on university so I have done the calculations (or sometimes eyeballed the results) but this might be great for others. Edited March 2, 2020 by ZLee Syn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabidweasel Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 This is all fantastic, thanks for the help all! Tourny is on the 28th of this Month so let's hope i can build and paint all the Blood Knights before then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor_Jesues Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, themortalgod said: This is true, but just wanted to clarify that, as a general rule, bonus attacks are more valuable if you have fewer attacks to start with while re-rolls are more valuable if you have many attacks. You are correct that for most of our vampire units, the re-roll is more valuable, but I just wanted to point out that re-roll isn't always better. Say, if we simula... this is a pretty interesting comparison. Even tough i already knew the reroll vs extra attack thing it is still interesting to see that blood knights are comparable to morghasts in a 2 turns fight. I did not know how morghast would have fared in general but if they dish out a similar damage to LoB BKs (8,8 damage vs 5,58 against 4+ save if the knights charged in the first turn) and considering that each morghast is more than double the cost of a bloodknight while being almost as hard to kill as two i see no reason to take the morghasts in LoB unless you need to stack the bravery debuff (wich while good is situational considering how easy it is to negate) since two knights will dish out 11,16 damage for 25 less points. Good stuff, good stuff Edited March 3, 2020 by Raptor_Jesues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 4 hours ago, Raptor_Jesues said: this is a pretty interesting comparison. Even tough i already knew the reroll vs extra attack thing it is still interesting to see that blood knights are comparable to morghasts in a 2 turns fight. I did not know how morghast would have fared in general but if they dish out a similar damage to LoB BKs (8,8 damage vs 5,58 against 4+ save if the knights charged in the first turn) and considering that each morghast is more than double the cost of a bloodknight while being almost as hard to kill as two i see no reason to take the morghasts in LoB unless you need to stack the bravery debuff (wich while good is situational considering how easy it is to negate) since two knights will dish out 11,16 damage for 25 less points. Good stuff, good stuff Yeah, unfortunately, for whatever reason, GW doesn't want us to use those beautiful models. They have been extremely sub-par ever since AoS launched. Even with the static +1 attack in GHoN they are still vastly over costed for what you get. It actually blew my mind GW actually nerfed Morghasts when they got re-printed in the Bonereaper book. Either they need a massive pts drop or a complete rework. (personally I would prefer the latter as I think that models that big and cool should be really fearsome on the table) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor_Jesues Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 1 hour ago, themortalgod said: Yeah, unfortunately, for whatever reason, GW doesn't want us to use those beautiful models. They have been extremely sub-par ever since AoS launched. Even with the static +1 attack in GHoN they are still vastly over costed for what you get. It actually blew my mind GW actually nerfed Morghasts when they got re-printed in the Bonereaper book. Either they need a massive pts drop or a complete rework. (personally I would prefer the latter as I think that models that big and cool should be really fearsome on the table) 180 points for 2 should be fair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 Is anyone able to advise the height of the VLoZD as well as Neferata? I'm looking in to transportation options at the moment as I look to start taking my first army to tournaments, the Battlefoam Magna Rack looks solid for my Legion of Grief, however I want to make sure I am future-proofing myself for when I add in some big monsters for my Legion of Blood. The medium sized case come with 5 inch spacers for the bottom row; will it be enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Raptor_Jesues said: 180 points for 2 should be fair I feel they need to come down more than that if their warscroll isn't changing. I think 160 would be about right. If you think about it, Morghasts are basically the same as Tzaangor Enlightened. TE are a flying hammer that costs 160pts for 12 wounds worth of models that move 16". Morghasts also have 12 wounds worth of models and are a flying hammer, though a bit slower of one. If you simulate damage output. Morghasts also have similar damage output to a unit of TE. (higher than the base profile, but lower than when TE get their built-in re-rolls) Edited March 3, 2020 by themortalgod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sartxac Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 29 minutes ago, themortalgod said: I feel they need to come down more than that if their warscroll isn't changing. I think 160 would be about right. If you think about it, Morghasts are basically the same as Tzaangor Enlightened. TE are a flying hammer that costs 160pts for 12 wounds worth of models that move 16". Morghasts also have 12 wounds worth of models and are a flying hammer, though a bit slower of one. If you simulate damage output. Morghasts also have similar damage output to a unit of TE. (higher than the base profile, but lower than when TE get their built-in re-rolls) i think that points cost of the miniatures depends to the type of army and the strategies that they can do. As a example, one army with many types of war units and many strategies possibles will tend to have worst units to the cost vs specialitzed armies in one of this strategies. For example, morghast can be mediocre hammers or a good strategic unit in Legion Of Night due to can deploy in a extreme with easy charge of +9 with 3 rolls. Other example, our LoB dragon for her points is garbage in comparison with a Stonehorn, Maw Crusha, Bloodthirster, etc in his damage outpout, have similar or better tanky options (chalice and the -1to hit command trait), but have support abilities and good strategies in Soulblight with MIst Form As sniper of enemy heroes or small units (although this we need mount traits for our VLoZD). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 10 minutes ago, Sartxac said: i think that points cost of the miniatures depends to the type of army and the strategies that they can do. As a example, one army with many types of war units and many strategies possibles will tend to have worst units to the cost vs specialitzed armies in one of this strategies. For example, morghast can be mediocre hammers or a good strategic unit in Legion Of Night due to can deploy in a extreme with easy charge of +9 with 3 rolls. Other example, our LoB dragon for her points is garbage in comparison with a Stonehorn, Maw Crusha, Bloodthirster, etc in his damage outpout, have similar or better tanky options (chalice and the -1to hit command trait), but have support abilities and good strategies in Soulblight with MIst Form As sniper of enemy heroes or small units (although this we need mount traits for our VLoZD). I agree that the army structure does need to be taken into account but I'd still argue it is a relatively fair comparison as a starting point. If a unit is radically out of line in terms of its effectiveness of what it is supposed to be good at then I feel that there is a failure in balance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor_Jesues Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 18 hours ago, themortalgod said: I agree that the army structure does need to be taken into account but I'd still argue it is a relatively fair comparison as a starting point. If a unit is radically out of line in terms of its effectiveness of what it is supposed to be good at then I feel that there is a failure in balance. that fair, my assertion was mostly a shot in the dark actually but i was quite close as it seems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blisterfeet Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 Spoiler Allegiance: Legion of BloodLeadersNeferata Mortarch of Blood (340)- General- Lore of the Dead: SoulpikeVampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (440)- Deathlance & Shield & Chalice- Artefact: Orb of Enchantment- Lore of the Vampires: Vile TransferenceVampire Lord (140)- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine OrbBloodseeker Palanquin (300)- Artefact: Oubliette Arcana- Lore of the Vampires: Spirit GaleBattleline40 x Chainrasp Horde (280)40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)- Ancient Spears5 x Dire Wolves (70)BattalionsCourt of Nulahmia (150)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 132 Wondering what everyone's opinions are on the list in the spoilers. I don't think it's really groundbreaking but I do think it's a solid list with some nice damage dealers. The Arcana idea is that with Seraphon, Tzeentch there are alot of spells that will be extremely hard to unbind 10+ so 1/6 chance to get this might be a low percentile but allow some funny moments. Any tips of gravesite placements or new player ideas or list changes would be appreciated in these dull times👍👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blubearbare Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 (edited) Thinking of a Legion of Blood Army have 3 lists which one is the most solid. A.Allegiance: Legion of BloodMortal Realm: ShyishLeadersNeferata Mortarch of Blood (340)- General- Lore of the Dead: Overwhelming Dread Coven Throne (260)- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet - Lore of the Vampires: Vile TransferenceNecromancer (130)- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading VigourBattleline40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)- Ancient Blades10 x Dire Wolves (140)5 x Dire Wolves (70)5 x Dire Wolves (70)Units5 x Blood Knights (200)5 x Blood Knights (200)6 x Vargheists (300)Total: 1990 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 162B Allegiance: Legion of BloodMortal Realm: ShyishLeadersNeferata Mortarch of Blood (340)- General- Lore of the Dead: Overwhelming Dread Coven Throne (260)- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet - Lore of the Vampires: Vile TransferenceNecromancer (130)- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading VigourVampire Lord (140)- Mount: Flying Horror- Lore of the Vampires: Vile TransferenceBattleline40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)- Ancient Blades5 x Dire Wolves (70)5 x Dire Wolves (70)Units5 x Blood Knights (200)5 x Blood Knights (200)6 x Vargheists (300)Total: 1990 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 147 C Allegiance: Legion of BloodMortal Realm: ShyishLeadersNeferata Mortarch of Blood (340)- General- Lore of the Dead: Overwhelming Dread Coven Throne (260)- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet - Lore of the Vampires: Vile TransferenceVampire Lord (140)- Mount: Flying Horror- Lore of the Vampires: Vile TransferenceBattleline40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)- Ancient Blades10 x Dire Wolves (140)5 x Dire Wolves (70)5 x Dire Wolves (70)Units5 x Blood Knights (200)5 x Blood Knights (200)6 x Vargheists (300)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 172 Edited April 20, 2020 by blubearbare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWilddog Posted May 29, 2020 Share Posted May 29, 2020 I ran across these pretty awesome vampire minis from TitanForge. They release the 3D printing files for them as part of their Patreon service. Has anyone had any experienced with them? I would love to see some of the actual models. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroud Of Night Posted May 29, 2020 Share Posted May 29, 2020 Love these. I have bought stuff from Titanforge in the past and their past model quality has been okay, good but not up to normal GW standards. I have not had any experience with their 3D printed stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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