AoS 2 - Hosts of Slaanesh Discussion

[kenshin620]

So how much would the chaos mammoth fit in with slaanesh armies?  It'll be a good hard hitter but might be eating a lot of points that could be used for heroes.

[Emor]

1 hour ago, carnith said:

I was a little disheartened at the changes, but thanks for making me see how much better it can be. The exalted keeper's best friend is still the chaos sorc for all the rerolls she will now need. Losing a flat 3 mortal wounds on her spell hurts, and she used to be able to cast 2 spells as opposed to 1, so thats also a nerf, but atleast kept the double unbind, which will be helpful to try to stop endless spells.

I think the exalted keeper can use it on herself following faqs saying that a model is always in range of itself. Playing this bad girl in pretenders with +1 to hit and cast/unbind with a weapon like blade of ending will make her terrifying as she slices down enemy heroes in a swing swing, and even makes mounted heroes nervous.

She can still cast 2 spells though? She used to be able to cast 2 unbind 1 and now she can cast 2 unbind 2, which is nice.

[Cambot1231]

Hmmn might have to pull the trigger on this guy as my exalted daemon.  Really sad about the loss of the 3+ save though

[Carnith]

49 minutes ago, Emor said:

She can still cast 2 spells though? She used to be able to cast 2 unbind 1 and now she can cast 2 unbind 2, which is nice.

I missed this entirely! Thanks for letting me know I misread. Whew...

[Waiyuren]

4 hours ago, Rock Lobster said:

Also lets not forget, if you had 3 of these and they earn 2 depravity points on any enemy and they were killed you can use depravity points for 7 heralds, if they are killed you can summon 5 heralds, and when they are killed you get 3 more heralds, and from them 2 more heralds and then 1.  Thats 18 heralds spitting out even if all is going really wrong, thats 1080 points of free stuff from 1,320 points of stuff. That seems amusingly broken. And that is assuming these guys dont go on a killing rampage racking up their own points besides the 2 points I listed above.

In a target rich environment that would be hilarious! I'm starting to force myself to think in terms of minimum returns though, before excitement overrules my brain; are there any (popular) armies that typically consist mostly of large blocks of 1-wound-per-model sadness, and squishy 5-wound heroes of disappointment?

Free peoples/mixed order? ?

 

[Carnith]

Nighthaunt all have 1 wound infantry, but their heroes are atleast 7 wounds.

Grot armies seem to have 4 wound heroes and 1 wound blocks. But if its moonclan and they do a squig meme list, thats a bunch of delicious 2 wounds.

Mixed order tends to run double dragon or double phoenix, so you're probably in luck there. A freeguild army that doesn't bring a hurricanum or general on griffon will be very low wound models and heroes. 

Fireslayers could be annoying to fight. Tough as hell dudes to kill and they don't give depravity, and their heroes can be hard to kill and don't die easily. 

[Enoby]

After thinking about it, I think that the exalted keeper is better off in its new state; looking through the core rules and the GHB, it can still be the general without being a leader so there's no issue there (if anything it's a tiny buff because we can include 7 heroes now). The lower save hurts, but hopefully she'll be able to kill anything that threatens her before she needs a save in the first place (and she should reach her target first turn). Other than that, her spell wasn't that great in the first place (needing needing what was effectively two casting rolls before working) so I don't see it as much of a loss. 

From test games I've played, she could probably get enough DP over the game to summon herself back. 

[Carnith]

The exalted keeper in a pretenders with a relic and double command traits will make her points back for sure. As noted in the main discussions for second edition, it is said that mortal wounds counts as wounds for all rules purpose. So if this indeed true, we shouldn't get screwed over by stardrakes, tzeentch spells, or other mortal wound sources.

[Enoby]

What endless spells, if any, are people using? I was considering the cogs (for more speed) and the gemnids for a debuff, but I'm unsure whether the gemnids are too dangerous to use as they hurt us loads if they come back on us. 

[Rock Lobster]

6 hours ago, Enoby said:

What endless spells, if any, are people using? I was considering the cogs (for more speed) and the gemnids for a debuff, but I'm unsure whether the gemnids are too dangerous to use as they hurt us loads if they come back on us. 

Cogs I think is essential, it can allow the keeper to make turn 1 charges. Another good one for cacophony and to start racking up depravity is the umbral spell portal. I really think only cogs are needed though.

[Carnith]

I used cogs and geminids in my list. So what Geminids allow is you to snipe out a front line hero with 2d3 mortal wounds. Cogs, I used to actually use another spell, but the problem is you only get the benefit till your next hero phase, so no wizard nearby = no buffs. 

[Rock Lobster]

Hmm, very wierd that the exhaulted keeper is a bohemoth and hero but not a leader. It sucks since it means you can’t make the exhaulted your general. Good news is if you take them you can still cram 6 non bohemoth characters.

[Enoby]

2 hours ago, Rock Lobster said:

Hmm, very wierd that the exhaulted keeper is a bohemoth and hero but not a leader. It sucks since it means you can’t make the exhaulted your general. Good news is if you take them you can still cram 6 non bohemoth characters.

Is there a rule that says you have to take your general as a leader? I know they have to be a hero in matched play, but I couldn't see where it said leader.

Edit: wait, I just found it - unfortunately you have to be a leader to be a general (pg 49 of the GHB 2018)

Edited July 1, 2018 by Enoby

[Jamopower]

On 6/30/2018 at 5:45 PM, Rock Lobster said:

Cogs I think is essential, it can allow the keeper to make turn 1 charges. Another good one for cacophony and to start racking up depravity is the umbral spell portal. I really think only cogs are needed though.

Good luck getting the cogs off on the first turn. Even with supremely vain, the chance is pretty low. Even if you can cast it so that the opponent is not in dispel range, it's just bit over 2/3 chance with the supremely vain and about 50/50 without. On dispel range it's half of that if the opponent doesn't have a bonus to unbind, and bit over half if you have the +1. And even if you get it off, the opponent can just deploy bit further away from you.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Jamopower

[Jamopower]

Additionally, played three games yesterday with my Slaanesh in a small release tournament in our FLGS. We played 1500 point games without endless spells. 

I had Pretenders with:

Keeper with supremely vain and the -1 to hit

Lord on steed with breathtaker (that I wasn't able to use a single time)

Sorcerer lord on horse

2x20 daemonettes

2x5 seekers

5 chaos warriors

5 knights

and a single extra command point.

Two of my games were against complete beginners with Kharadrons and Tomb kings, so there was nothing much to say about those. Lost against Ironjawz in the shifting objectives. Destroyed most of the opponent's army and had quite strong position with the summoned troops, but as the main objective stayed whole game at the same place where most of the orcs were, I lost it. Fun game though.

Some notes:

Seekers are nice for running after the travelling objectives, but very dependent on the amount of available room on board. They are bit expensive to use just for harrasment and baiting.

Depravity points are very easy to get, in the first game against KO got 29 in four turns, in the second against Ironjawz 40 in four turns and in the last against TK about 30 in two turns, even when I was quite light on heroes. In the second game I managed to summon a unit of 20 daemonettes that managed to charge and destroy a big unit of ardboyz. 

Extra command point was very useful. In the first game the combat erupted only at the third turn, so I was able to use the double pile-in command ability on four different units, which was as devastating as it sounds. Essentially I had four extra units on combat for a turn.

Magic was pretty worthless. The few times I got the spell through from the Sorcerer lord it was nice, but overall effect on both sides was very minor. In the ironjawz game we got in total of maybe 3-4 spells through with 3 wizards on table. It's fun how the Oracular visions is essentially a mystic shield that you don't have to cast. However with the bad saves on Slaanesh troops, it's not very useful.

My mortal part was just a speed bump. The list would have been a lot better if I just had more daemonettes and a second keeper instead of them.

If I had the models, I probably would run something like this in 1500 points:

2 Keepers of secrets

Daemon prince

2x30 daemonettes

10 daemonettes

5 hellstriders

extra command point.

 

[Carnith]

So on warscroll builder which was updated today, the exalted keeper of secrets is under leaders. So who knows? Maybe a misprint on FW or a lazy intern who didn't move the monster to where it should be based on FW. 

So under malign sorcery, the lord on mount with a rend 3 artefact is kinda spicy. Probably not triple daemon prince, exalted keeper good, but he does move 16 base, so cogs or going seekers for cogs x 2, he will get in, and he comes with his own -1 to hit in combat. 

 

For a particularly nasty list,

exalted keeper, 

Chaos Sorc

triple daemon prince

Hellstrider x 3. 

2 10 man seeker squads

Geminids and Cogs.

 

I'm iffy on seekers but if they have a ranged unit, a good run and charge could get your engaging them. Seekers in this list move atleast 16+2d6 with a 2d6+2 charge. Even if roll average, you should see seekers move 23 with a 9" charge. Just tying up a bunch of junk with 10 bodies will be nice. 

If I go first, I will cast cogs first, to get a +4 move and +4 charge. Assuming I get this, this gives most things in the army a 16"+ move.  Should allow for many turn 1 charges. If I go second, geminids will be a great choice. as you can use the geminids to snipe heroes and help soften up counter attack. Opponents will seek to go first, espcially if they have any summoning or ways to bring units out, so that they don't fall further behind, and you swing through their lines again with Geminids.  If they go second, make sure you ended geminids over their units, so if they try to harm your guys, you are more insulated as they will have to hurt their own squads. Also note, MW caused to your heroes, gives depravity to start the herald summoning game.

[Jamopower]

You need to get bit lucky to win in the trade-off if you're using 240 points of troops for tying up enemies. That list also looks like it will have hard time keeping any objectives for longer than one turn. Which is the main problem for me when I play with Slaanesh. Many of the scenarios are such that you need to take the objectives early and keep them to be able to win. All of the games I had on Sunday ended up on turn three to a situation where the other player couldn't anymore win because of the early lead in victory points.

I also don't think that getting to combat on turn one is not so useful as it sounds, as most often you're only able to charge some screening units and the chargers die on counter charge. You might get some depravity on the go, but the big guys are so important for the longer game, that you don't want to lose them on turn one. Getting most of your stuff on the objecties and using small seeker units to block the enemy movement, should be nice, and should be easy to achieve, as even without any bonuses they have 14+4d6" (+2 if within 12" of daemon hero) range for charging, and the new scenarios have shorter distance between the armies (some have even just 9" from the opponent). Thus I don't see the cogs have much of a use for Slaanesh. The movement is nice for the summoned units, but you start to see them around turn three and the ability to cast two spells is worthless for Slaanesh as we don't have any good spells to cast. Especially if you have to babysit the cogs somewhere in the corner to be out of the unbind range. The geminids look much nicer, but they are still pretty hard to cast on 7+ as you'll also be inside the unbind range for sure when doing that. If the opponent has any bonuses to unbind, it might be tricky to get them on the table at all. I would prefer to use those points on extra command points as the Slaanesh command abilities are so good. Also comparing 9" charge for summoned unit with +2" from cogs to re-roll from command point, there is only 10% difference in the probability. Both are close to 50/50. Of course with both it's even better.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Jamopower

[Jamopower]

Now that I think it, ability to first harrass the enemy with seekers and then later in the game to replace them with summoned daemonettes feels pretty nice. I wish the seekers were a battleline unit though

[Enoby]

3 hours ago, Jamopower said:

Now that I think it, ability to first harrass the enemy with seekers and then later in the game to replace them with summoned daemonettes feels pretty nice. I wish the seekers were a battleline unit though

Me too Also kind of wish they were 100 points rather than 120; they're very fast, but don't quite have the punch or staying power to make them feel worth it. It'd be quite nice if they got something to make them do more on a charge. Their distraction abilities are top notch, though. 

[Carnith]

4 hours ago, Jamopower said:

You need to get bit lucky to win in the trade-off if you're using 240 points of troops for tying up enemies. That list also looks like it will have hard time keeping any objectives for longer than one turn. Which is the main problem for me when I play with Slaanesh. Many of the scenarios are such that you need to take the objectives early and keep them to be able to win. All of the games I had on Sunday ended up on turn three to a situation where the other player couldn't anymore win because of the early lead in victory points.

I also don't think that getting to combat on turn one is not so useful as it sounds, as most often you're only able to charge some screening units and the chargers die on counter charge. You might get some depravity on the go, but the big guys are so important for the longer game, that you don't want to lose them on turn one. Getting most of your stuff on the objecties and using small seeker units to block the enemy movement, should be nice, and should be easy to achieve, as even without any bonuses they have 14+4d6" (+2 if within 12" of daemon hero) range for charging, and the new scenarios have shorter distance between the armies (some have even just 9" from the opponent). Thus I don't see the cogs have much of a use for Slaanesh. The movement is nice for the summoned units, but you start to see them around turn three and the ability to cast two spells is worthless for Slaanesh as we don't have any good spells to cast. Especially if you have to babysit the cogs somewhere in the corner to be out of the unbind range. The geminids look much nicer, but they are still pretty hard to cast on 7+ as you'll also be inside the unbind range for sure when doing that. If the opponent has any bonuses to unbind, it might be tricky to get them on the table at all. I would prefer to use those points on extra command points as the Slaanesh command abilities are so good. Also comparing 9" charge for summoned unit with +2" from cogs to re-roll from command point, there is only 10% difference in the probability. Both are close to 50/50. Of course with both it's even better.

While I agree, getting cogs off may not be as important, the ability to help dictate where the flow of battle is very important. Slaanesh doesn't care much where the battlelines are drawn since we are fast enough to get wherever we need to. A lot of armies do not have this benefit and will get stuck. Also the idea of the turn one charge shenanigans was getting enough move and charge to move over front lines to get to more vulnerable targets, or elite units that do not want to get struck first. 

At the very least, it's a list I want to try out. It might be a good list, or just a bully list that if unless you counter it, it wins. My slaanesh games usually go with 2 big blocks of daemonettes dictating where battle occurs with the keeper of secrets help dominating one side before I sweep over the other side. I'll lose about 30 daemonettes, while my hellstriders just stick around for fun and debuffs. 

[Edgecoc]

Pleasure Bound Battalion worth it for the extra cp and artefact?

[Carnith]

3 hours ago, Edgecoc said:

Pleasure Bound Battalion worth it for the extra cp and artefact?

It's an everchosen battalion, so all the units would be considered everchosen if I recall the whole issue maggotkin of nurgle players have. Though some people are trying to claim that in their book, some rule exists to let them have it. It's reaching imo.

[Edgecoc]

19 hours ago, carnith said:

It's an everchosen battalion, so all the units would be considered everchosen if I recall the whole issue maggotkin of nurgle players have. Though some people are trying to claim that in their book, some rule exists to let them have it. It's reaching imo.

There is no rule that says the Allegiance has to be the same as the battalion’s, just if the correct units are there.

[kenshin620]

1 hour ago, Edgecoc said:

There is no rule that says the Allegiance has to be the same as the battalion’s, just if the correct units are there.

The issue is the new 2.0 Battalion rules/FAQ that can go either way depending on how you interpret it.

 

This rule has been posted a number of times around the chaos forums.

 

Edited July 5, 2018 by kenshin620

[Enoby]

I've played 4 games so far (each at 2000 points), and have found depravity points to be very easy to get:

Vs Sylvaneth: 73 by turn 3

Vs Moonclan: 74 by turn 3

Vs Sylvaneth: 104 by turn 4

Vs Chaos Dwarves: 62 by turn 3 

 

I lost the two last games, the first due to getting greedy with depravity points and forgetting about the minor victory condition that my opponent triggered - this was entirely  preventable and I had the upper hand model-wise. The second game was strange - my army was shot with 6d6 mortal wounds at range + some more shooting with -2 rend, and there was very little left of it by turn two; next time, I should try play around the warmachines first.