AoS 2 - Hosts of Slaanesh Discussion

[Waiyuren]

I think in terms of versatilty, Daemon Princes and Sorcerer Lords on Manticores are going to be serious contenders for best dp generator. Good speed, good wounds, good potential damage output, and native flying.

Admittedly i have zero experience with daemons though, so heralds and keepers are a mystery to me, but i think flying is going to be the linchpin of generating points in excess (ha!) of our heroes' basic wounds.

Does anyone have numbers on average damage output for the other heroes?

Edit; Heralds look like the best wounds/depravity points ratio at a glance. All they have to do is put 2 wounds on something to earn their points back and respawn on death.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Waiyuren

[Enoby]

47 minutes ago, Waiyuren said:

Does anyone have numbers on average damage output for the other heroes?

 

So, not including spells, command abilities, command traits, or artefacts and against a base 4+ save:

Exalted Greater Daemon of Slaanesh: 10 (HA = 17, LA = 5)

Keeper of Secrets: 6 (HA = 10, LA = 2)

Herald of Slaanesh: 1 (HA = 3, LA = 0)

Herald on Exalted Seeker Chariot: 3 (HA = 6, LA = 0)

Daemon Prince of Slaanesh with Axe: 4 (HA = 6, LA = 0)

Daemon Prince of Slaanesh with Sword: 4 (HA = 6, LA = 0)

Chaos Lord of Slaanesh: 2 (HA = 4, LA = 1)

Lord of Chaos with Mark of Slaanesh: 2 (HA = 5, LA = 0)

Chaos Lord on Manticore with Mark of Slaanesh (with lance, but not charging): 3 (6 when charging) (HA = 9, LA = 0) (Charge HA = 13, LA = 0)

Chaos Lord on Manticore with Mark of Slaanesh (with flail): 4 (HA = 9, LA = 0)

Chaos Lord of Slaanesh on Boobsnek: 2 (HA = 5, LA = 0)

Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount with Mark of Slaanesh: 2 (HA = 5, LA = 0) 

 

Note: this is average damage across the entire game when they are in combat; in reality it is much more swingy per turn. Also, the 0 LA that appears for many attacks should be taken with a grain of salt - when a model has many attacks, like the Manticore, it's unlikely to do 0 damage. In addition, some of these numbers variate considerably when the enemy has a base 5+ save as a -2 rend would prevent a save, whereas a -1 would not. Finally, I should note that monster damage was taken at full health. 

HA = High Average

LA = Low Average 

[Carnith]

8 hours ago, Jamopower said:

I don't believe getting heroes just for their ability to generate depravity points (i. e. Die) is very valid strategy as it's like in a casino. The house always wins. You'll lose more points than you're able to summon. Daemon princes on the other hand look good as do kippers. I wish I had a second of them. 

The way I view it, if I take mortal slaanesh and take chaos lords and other 5 wound heroes, they are unlikely to see combat to generate depravity, and only gain me 4 depravity in return. I typically take a few chariots and a keeper anyways, so for me, it's a bigger boon as they will generate half of their points in depravity, plus whatever wounds they do.  Now, I will agree, Daemon Princes may be better overall for being to strike first at whoever, gaurenteeing a chance to do more depravity than a single herald on chariot. 

[Carnith]

8 hours ago, Jamopower said:

 

Edited June 25, 2018 by carnith
Accidental double post

[Carnith]

so i noticed Khorne and Tzeentch got rules added to their army that says "on a role of 1 for battleshock, add d6 and no models flee" but nothing to slaanesh. Think it was implied. 

[Enoby]

3 hours ago, carnith said:

so i noticed Khorne and Tzeentch got rules added to their army that says "on a role of 1 for battleshock, add d6 and no models flee" but nothing to slaanesh. Think it was implied. 

Yeah, it would make sense that we have the same rule. I guess they'll update ours when we get a Battletome.

On a related note, I'm glad that Daemonettes are sticking on 25mm bases; gives them the edge over the other daemons as, not only are they cheaper, they get double the number of models in range for an attack. 

[Carnith]

Im really excited for that. Makes our daemons better and even if you summon in a 10 man squad, they'll still get their damage out. Running Seekers with cogs gives them a 6 inch charge, or 7 inch if you run pretenders. Going to be a great time for Slaanesh. 

[Enoby]

Do you reckon we'll see any top tables, or do you think that we still lack too much in other areas to quite make it? 

[Enoby]

This is something people may find interesting:

I'm back with some more depravity points maths. I went over how much damage each hero did a turn on average, but didn't account for its points. This time I've taken a ratio (depravity points : points) and converted it to percentage so it can be more easily compared. This is flawed slightly as it assumes they die the first turn, which isn't always the case (especially for the exalted greater daemon), but it's difficult to estimate how many turns a hero would be alive for because it really depends what they're up against. I considered doing a ratio just using damage done vs points, but that misses out half of the equation for depravity points so isn't really a valid measure (it makes things like the herald on exalted chariot look much worse than it is). 

The higher the percentage, the more DP per point. 

Exalted greater daemon = 4.8%*

Keeper of secrets = 5.8%*

Herald of Slaanesh = 8.3%

Herald of Slaanesh on Exalted Seeker Chariot = 6.9% (not charging)

Daemon prince = 6.9%

Chaos Lord of Slaanesh = 6%

Lord of Chaos with mark of Slaanesh = 5% 

Lord of Chaos on Manticore = 5.6% or 6.8% when charging*

Lord on Boobsnek = 5.7%

Masque of Slaanesh = 8.8% 

I've starred the models that I'd expect to last more than a turn in combat most of the time, so note that their percentage should be higher than given, but it's difficult to calculate how much higher. 

 

[Waiyuren]

Nice. I actually did something similar, but I've been holding back on it until Saturday because it lists all of the points and depravity points costs. What i got out of my effort was that the exalted greater daemon, Archaon, and the cheaper heralds; the vanilla herald, and the masque, were the most efficient at earning back their own cost by quickly facilitating the summoning of something comparable in power to themselves.

I used your numbers where i could, and some quick averages for the other 6 heroes you haven't listed, but my math won't be as good.

One thing that caught my eye, is what you might be able to achieve when running some of the cheaper heroes in groups. Take the basic heralds for example; run 3 together and give them all free licky chickens to ride. Thats 15 wounds, 18+6 attacks, and a fast cav move speed for 180pts... they'll make a lot of their points back the first hero or monster they hit, which you can then use to summon more heralds on licky chickens. If not all of them die and you can keep bouncing to new targets, it becomes a race to see how many you can have by turn 5...  ?

Edited June 28, 2018 by Waiyuren

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, Waiyuren said:

One thing that caught my eye, is what you might be able to achieve when running some of the cheaper heroes in groups. Take the basic heralds for example; run 3 together and give them all free licky chickens to ride. Thats 15 wounds, 18+6 attacks, and a fast cav move speed for 180pts... they'll make a lot of their points back the first hero or monster they hit, which you can then use to summon more heralds on licky chickens. If not all of them die and you can keep bouncing to new targets, it becomes a race to see how many you can have by turn 5...  ?

That's a good point about the heralds; the only thing that stops me making a herald on licky chicken (great name btw) is that I'm worried it'll be removed in the battletome. That said, until then it sounds like a solid strategy.

 

I agree that the Masque sounds really good, and it's even better that she has a great debuff. I wonder if we'll ever see a new model for her; I somehow think not, but she's the only named Slaanesh daemon with a model and she has some pretty cool lore (like posing as Morathi to trick the Idoneth king and cut his eye out). 

[Waiyuren]

I wonder too, but if the warscrolls don't change then I'm seriously considering picking up a SC! box and upgrading all those seekers to heralds. If the battletome removes the mount option, they'll just be fancy seekers... Maybe that's not so bad. It's really tempting!

I wish The Masque's Unnatural Reflexes ability worked in the shooting phase, though. A 4+ save only gets you so far on 5 wounds... ?

[Enoby]

2 hours ago, Waiyuren said:

I wonder too, but if the warscrolls don't change then I'm seriously considering picking up a SC! box and upgrading all those seekers to heralds. If the battletome removes the mount option, they'll just be fancy seekers... Maybe that's not so bad. It's really tempting!

I wish The Masque's Unnatural Reflexes ability worked in the shooting phase, though. A 4+ save only gets you so far on 5 wounds... ?

That's actually a really good idea with the Seeker/herald conversion. In the end, you lose nothing even if they do change it.

 

Speaking of seekers, I think they'll be much better this edition. Previously they lacked the punch to use their speed - they could get there, but they just flailed about (doing about 1 or 2 wounds usually) - but now they can block of shooting. Combined with the Masque, this means we can have a lot of control over what the opponent can do with their turn. Block off their shooting, slow down their movement, and funnel/lock in units with the seekers. I think the only issue is that Seekers are expensive so you can't use them as totally expendable chaff. 

[Carnith]

Maybe ya'll can help me figure out the last 200 points of my army. 

Allegiance: Chaos Chaos Sorcerer Lord On Manticore (200)

Herald Of Slaanesh on Exalted Seeker Chariot (160)

Herald Of Slaanesh on Exalted Seeker Chariot (160)

Keeper Of Secrets (280)

30 x Daemonettes Of Slaanesh (270)

30 x Daemonettes Of Slaanesh (270)

5 x Hellstriders Of Slaanesh (100) - Claw spear

5 x Hellstriders Of Slaanesh (100) - Claw spear

Jabberslythe (120)

Jabberslythe (120)

Total: 1780 / 2000 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 140

this is an 1800 point list (jabbers went up 20 and keeper down 20)

with 280/400 in allies

what goes in the last 200 points

option 1: hellstriders + cogs + geminids

Option 2: Brayshamn + cogs + geminids

it's another caster so I can cast other ****** or dispell

option 3 :Chaos Sorc on Mount + Geminids

[Enoby]

I'd suggest the hellstriders, the cogs, and the gemnids - the more -1s to hit, the better. 

Also, our exalted keeper has been changed! She's now 440 points. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Enoby

[Emor]

Huh, interesting changes. The loss of the 3+ save is going to hurt (and no rerolling 1s to wound), but atleast she costs 60 points less. And the new command ability lets us fight again immediately rather than letting the enemy fighting in between. An extra unbind is also nice. Not sure what to think about the changes.

[Render]

At first read, it seems like the change to the Command Ability means she can't  use it on herself anymore.  Do others agree?

[Waiyuren]

That is really weirdly worded... they have to use it on someone else, unless there is another exalted near, in which case they can then use it on themselves? ?

[Jamopower]

It's same as many others and answered somewhere in the faq, that within includes also the one where it is measured from. There are plenty of similar rules in the game.

 

[Render]

11 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

It's same as many others and answered somewhere in the faq, that within includes also the one where it is measured from. There are plenty of similar rules in the game.

 

If I'm thinking of the same question as you, it was something like "does a unit count as being in range of itself?" to which the answer is yes. But the old wording for the ability was simply "select a slaanesh daemon within 18."" 

Now it's changed to include a "friendly model." So I guess my question is does a unit count as a friendly model for itself?

Let me know if I've missed a more recent FAQ where this wording was addressed - I haven't caught fully up to speed with all the new rules and FAQs so certainly could have missed it. I tried to scan the most recent FAQ for clarification but didn't spot anything.

 

[Jamopower]

Ah, I see, but I thought it was so obvious that a model is friendly if it's your own that didn't even think there would be anything strange.

[Render]

Gotcha, yeah I'd personally like some clarification on this one. I'm aware that Exalted KoS with Devotee of Torment (pile in from 6"), plus double pile-in from command ability was really strong. 

My suspicion is that the wording change may undo that combo (while also changing some other things for the better). The wording also now explicitly calls out that if the unit is within 3" it can pile in and attack again, whereas before it just said the unit could pile in and attack twice.

Anyway, the fact that the ability is now an immediate second attack following the first seems cool.

[Rock Lobster]

The loss of the 3+ save hurts, and the loss of reroll 1s to wound. However on balance I think there are 3 great benefits, 60 points cheaper means another herald and essentially +4 depravity points as well as making it a cheaper caster per spell then the keeper of secrets, the command ability is MUCH MUCH MUCH better, by a lot, by a ton. Think about the faction bonus which allows you to have 3 commanders using command abilities (I am assuming this is changed to 1 command point for all three to activate). You send 3 exhaulted demons into the enemy and double attack with each of them. Thats 22 attacks each - high quality attacks. That'll earn some good depravity points. And of course with the new scroll you can have more than 1, so you can have as many as 3 of these monsters in a 2000 point army. Very cool I think.

[Rock Lobster]

Also lets not forget, if you had 3 of these and they earn 2 depravity points on any enemy and they were killed you can use depravity points for 7 heralds, if they are killed you can summon 5 heralds, and when they are killed you get 3 more heralds, and from them 2 more heralds and then 1.  Thats 18 heralds spitting out even if all is going really wrong, thats 1080 points of free stuff from 1,320 points of stuff. That seems amusingly broken. And that is assuming these guys dont go on a killing rampage racking up their own points besides the 2 points I listed above.

[Carnith]

I was a little disheartened at the changes, but thanks for making me see how much better it can be. The exalted keeper's best friend is still the chaos sorc for all the rerolls she will now need. Losing a flat 3 mortal wounds on her spell hurts, and she used to be able to cast 2 spells as opposed to 1, so thats also a nerf, but atleast kept the double unbind, which will be helpful to try to stop endless spells.

I think the exalted keeper can use it on herself following faqs saying that a model is always in range of itself. Playing this bad girl in pretenders with +1 to hit and cast/unbind with a weapon like blade of ending will make her terrifying as she slices down enemy heroes in a swing swing, and even makes mounted heroes nervous.

Edited June 29, 2018 by carnith