AoS 2 - Hosts of Slaanesh Discussion

[Rhargar]

Hallo together, can you compare the new Slaanesh battle tome with the tome from the. DoK? Both armies are very fast, hits hard and have a very limited choice of units in their own battle tome. 

What do you think with your current experience is the "stronger" or more flexible battle tome? 

I think about to start either Daughters or Slaanesh, but I'm not sure which battle tome to choose. 

[NurglesFirstChosen]

10 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

Its the 30 Daemonettes in Epicureans that I don't rate, it plays far too much into the 'run ahead, deal MWs, win' mentality to me. I just don't think Daemonettes can withstand any form of punch to be worth so heavily investing in. I've only played the new army twice but I feel like the first investment has to be in characters and methods to generate DP. Other people may have different experiences with the army obviously but I tried one game with 30 Daemonettes and was disappointed in just how fast they evaporated. 

Tbh I kinda disagree that a unit of 30 (or 2) daemonettes can’t be competitive. Firstly they’re good at capturing objectives (although not holding them for long). Which forces your opponent into combat with them... and that will seriously hurt you opp even if they send a tank in against them. This is even more key when considering the majority of times they’ll fight first. Worse case is your opp wipes out the unit but takes massive loses also.... and we have the opportunity to summon more units. 

How fast they are means you will hit hard with most the unit, and there’s not much that can stand that. Also with well positioned hero’s they can take a charge... Ive played a couple of games with new slaanesh, and in the second one, I took a charge from a VLoZD, and killed it comfortably with 30 nettes before it even got to attack. 

On the other hand, shooting lists will destroy them easily. But then again shooting lists are our bane. 

 

Edited May 6, 2019 by NurglesFirstChosen

[ageofpaddsmar]

Do ungors and gors in a depraved drove count as battle line in a slaanesh army. 

I think they do as it would be the same as slaanesh marked chaos warriors but the azyr app says invalid due to not enough battle line

[Entombet]

Im strugling how to build army with slaanesh. Army mechanic promote large number of heroes, but aos is objective based and they are controled by hordes.

[Enoby]

22 minutes ago, Entombet said:

Im strugling how to build army with slaanesh. Army mechanic promote large number of heroes, but aos is objective based and they are controled by hordes.

I'd suggest a decent number (2-3) KoS with a few chaff battleline, and use depravity points to summon;  the opponent can't hold an objective if they're dead. 

I actually had a game last night against goblin heavy Gloomspite - will do a write up soon.

[Enoby]

The Gloomspite game:

My list:

Godseekers 

Keeper of Secrets (360)

-Thrill Seeker

-Cameo of the Dark Prince

-The healing spell (its name escapes me)

Soulfeaster Keeper of Secrets (360)

-Thredony Voicebox

-Song of Secrets

Shalaxi Helbane (340)

-The spell which stops command abilities and charging 

Contorted Epitome (200)

-Hysterical Frenzy 

5 Hellstriders (100)

5 Hellstriders (100)

1 Seeker chariot (120)

10 Seekers (240)

Supreme Saberites (120)

Chronomatic Cogs (60)

2000/2000

The Gloomspite list:

1 troll hag 

Skragrot 

Fungoid cave shaman 

Mangler Squig with loonboss with doppleganger cloak

60 grots with spears 

40 grots with spears 

20 grots with spears 

5 fanatics 

Gemnids of Ulg-Hysh

Morks Mighty Mushroom

The battleplan was battle for the pass. I let him take first turn and he moved his 40 and 20 man unit of grots onto the centre objectives. He made no charges. 

In my turn, I used the cameo at the beginning of the turn to get a cp and then sacrificed it so my keeper could reroll failed hits for the rest of the battle. The battalion triggered and I got one more CP (putting me on 4). I charged his front lines with my entire army besides Shalaxi. After 2 or three double pile ins on the keepers and the seekers, the unit of 40 grots died and a chunk was taken out of the 20. Due to the position of the 60 man unit, I didn't capture the centre objectives.

I got the double turn, got a cp from the battalion, healed a tiny bit, cast the no charging spell on the mangler, and charged into his 60 man unit with everyone; the fanatics didn't have room to set up in front and so went to the back. The 60 man struck last, but didn't have the chance to strike - they were utterly obliterated under the strength of three KoS with double pile ins. Captured the middle two objectives.

The goblin player tried to bring back half a unit but unfortunately failed.  He sent the troll hag to deal with the hellstriders sat on the centre objective. It killed a good chunk of them but not enough to capture the objective. The gemnids were summoned and -1 attack really hurts the KoS. 

I won priority, but at this point it was more mopping up the remnants of his army.  Shalaxi and the Soulfeaster died to mortal wounds from spells and the doppleganger mangler (who was killed by seekers), but at that point I had enough DP to summon 2 more KoS within range of the fane. 

Even though my list was not optimal at all, it felt very strong - though I'm worried we may be a bit uninteractive to play against as we tend to kill whatever we get into before it strikes back.

[SwampHeart]

3 hours ago, ageofpaddsmar said:

Do ungors and gors in a depraved drove count as battle line in a slaanesh army. 

I think they do as it would be the same as slaanesh marked chaos warriors but the azyr app says invalid due to not enough battle line

They do, the app doesn't handle BoC in any army other than BoC well at all. Because you have to select the battalion to give them the mark the app can't quite figure out that they're not allies. 

[ageofpaddsmar]

Great thanks 

[Elazar The Glorified]

Enoby, what were your thoughts on the Soulfeaster? I've never been massively keen on my FW Keeper so in my head it's on its way to ebay as I much prefer the new Keeper but does it have a role? 

[Enoby]

3 minutes ago, Elazar The Glorified said:

Enoby, what were your thoughts on the Soulfeaster? I've never been massively keen on my FW Keeper so in my head it's on its way to ebay as I much prefer the new Keeper but does it have a role? 

It was actually much better than I thought; I initially took it because I only have two plastic keepers and the FW one, but its soulfeaster tendrils are a nice addition when fighting heroes (the depravity point generation is a good bonus too). The lack of command ability hurts, but it was always next to my normal KoS anyway so it didn't matter too much. Definitely worse than the plastic one, but not bad.  

[SwampHeart]

6 hours ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

*snip*

The issue I see is if you want speedy bodies BoC offers better options for cheaper. In the battle line slot you can get 40 Ungors for 100 points less than 30 Daemonettes who are just as fast, still fill battle line, and get innate re-rolls 1s and 2s. The only downside is lower bravery but that's easily fixable with Ssyl'eskke or just thrifty CP usage. Or if you just want a fast unit that hits hard Bestigors are unreal - at the same cost as Daemonettes. If you only manage to get 15 Bestigors (of a unit of 30) into a combat on the charge they deal 35 wounds before saves, and even when not charging deal 23. Daemonettes at max strength generate 29 (10 MW/19 if you take Epicureans). This does assume you have access to re-roll 1s to hit for both units but with the prevalence of the buff I don't think that's bad to factor in. Also given the mandatory presence of a Great Bray Shaman all BoC units are faster than Daemonettes. 

I'm all for summoning daemonettes as they're a high value summoning option but the BoC options out perform Daemonettes as far as purchased units go. Now I grant not everyone wants to play like this and if that's the case then I totally understand. However I think when you evaluate the total available options BoC provides two units that out perform either role envisaged for Daemonettes. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Enoby]

While Bestigors are very good, their lack of pile in twice really hurts imo. It costs a command point, but if you compare the given 29 from daemonettes and the 35 from Bestigors, and then add a command point to make it 58 compared to 35. Yeah, you need a KoS, but they're great and 90% of Slaanesh lists will have one anyway. 

[SwampHeart]

14 minutes ago, Enoby said:

While Bestigors are very good, their lack of pile in twice really hurts imo. It costs a command point, but if you compare the given 29 from daemonettes and the 35 from Bestigors, and then add a command point to make it 58 compared to 35. Yeah, you need a KoS, but they're great and 90% of Slaanesh lists will have one anyway. 

Yeah but then you need to re-adjust your math to account for the fact that you've included 360 additional points in equation. That's an additional 30 bestigors, however the more important thing to look at is that's 15 bestigors, if you get 20 charging bestigors in that's 46 wounds, 25 is 58, and 30 is 69. So it takes 30 daemonettes fighting twice to equal 25 Bestigors fighting once. Daemonettes do fare better when not charging however both units will deplete quickly enough that after the first turn of combat neither will be close to optimal. I like Daemonettes but I just don't think they're the most optimal choice. You can certainly play with them and win with them but if you're looking for the cutting edge I think BoC has more to offer. 

[Rock Lobster]

16 minutes ago, Enoby said:

While Bestigors are very good, their lack of pile in twice really hurts imo. It costs a command point, but if you compare the given 29 from daemonettes and the 35 from Bestigors, and then add a command point to make it 58 compared to 35. Yeah, you need a KoS, but they're great and 90% of Slaanesh lists will have one anyway. 

Yes that is a pain, I think they work best in a list like pretenders where the bestigor are operating with a lot of power and resilience of their own not sucking up command points and keeping the enemy occupied while all the CP goes into the keepers. If you are invaders with a lot of CP to spare then better to go daemonettes where you can spend the CP to make daemonettes perform (i.e. run 6 or pile in twice)

[AverageBoss]

8 hours ago, Rhargar said:

Hallo together, can you compare the new Slaanesh battle tome with the tome from the. DoK? Both armies are very fast, hits hard and have a very limited choice of units in their own battle tome. 

What do you think with your current experience is the "stronger" or more flexible battle tome? 

I think about to start either Daughters or Slaanesh, but I'm not sure which battle tome to choose. 

With access to marked StD units and battalion Beastmen units, Slaanesh has FAR more options and potential builds than DoK if going mono allegiance.

[Grimrock]

I think the biggest problem with bestigors vs daemonettes is you need to include the BoC battalion. That's 150 points, plus the shaman and 3 units of ungors at least. You could argue that all those units do work as well, but so does a keeper while it provides the command ability. I like the BoC, but you really can't just say they're the best overall when the cost of even getting them in the list is so high. There's definitely some room for discussion still.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Grimrock

[Rock Lobster]

Looking for some list feedback for a game against gloomspite this week.

I want to give some infantry a run to see how I feel about the loss of characters:

Invaders

Keeper - 360 (Ghyran +1 attack blade) (trait undecided)

Keeper - 360 (Ghyran +1 to hit and wound blade)

Contorted epitome - 200 (Invaders artifact that generates CP)

Character battalion - 120

30 daemonettes - 300

30 daemonettes - 300

10 daemonettes - 110

Daemonettes battalion - 180

Cogs - 60

Pretty straightforward concept - 2 wings of attacks, a keeper with 30 daemonettes. Center is just the 10 with the epitome for magic offence / defence, holding objectives, summoning and lending combat support if needed.

List starts turn 1 with minimum of 3 command points, 5/6 chance of getting 1 from the artifact and 50% chance of getting a 5th from the battalion. Average CP over the course of game is like to be 3 per turn factoring in starting CP.

Cogs allows the list to strike fast, and if needed boost daemonettes to run 6". Gives a potential average move and charge with the cogs for daemonettes of 23".

Only 2 drops means I can almost always go second and see if my opponent is foolish enough to move forward even a couple of inches. I think it is a good mix of bodies and characters, command points and magic that doesn't lean too heavily in any 1 direction to make the list 1 dimensional, and the steady trickle of CP gives options to a lot of different think. It lacks compared to other lists in DP generation.

The trade while keeping the list similar would be reducing 1 unit of 30 daemonettes to a unit of helstriders and sticking in the special character herald. This would reduce the combat punch of the list to his combat punch, but provides a greater shot at extra CP, his awesome spell etc. I think it is a fair trade and comes down to preference.

Option 3 is to slack off on CP a little and weaken a keeper, dropping the daemonette battalion and losing one of the weapon artifacts but keeping the CP generating one and this allows you to keep 60 damonettes and get the special character herald. You will have a smaller turn 1 pool of CP but will be rich in CP each turn still. This weakens the dameonettes too, but I think it may actually be the most balance of the 3 lists.

 

[SwampHeart]

15 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

That's 150 points, plus the shaman and 3 units of ungors at least.

A depraved drove with 30 Ungors, a Bray Shaman, and 30 Bestigors is cheaper than 60 Daemonettes in Epicureans. (730 v. 780). You're getting access to a character (4 DP worth), all of your core and a hard hitting unit for 50 points (1 CP) less than Epicurean 'Nettes. I don't think the cost is all that high when you look at what you're paying to get Daemonettes into effective territory. You also then have access to the points efficient Shaggoth for a 9 DP character with a self heal if you go that route, but even if you don't the cost of a Drove is actually lower than the cost of a similar set up of Daemonettes. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Carnith]

My thought is that now the nettes can help punch through high toughness targets. The 20 hearthguard with a 3+/4++ will be hurt more by the daemonettes. And if you don’t spend the command point on the nettes to pile in, you can use it on the keeper to help push through elsewhere. Being able to push down an incredibly strong unit to take less retaliation is always good. But at this point I feel we are arguing flavour. I value the mortal wound capability to push out sequitors or other high save units allowing daemonettes to hurt a stardrake or some other 2+ save model

[SwampHeart]

22 minutes ago, carnith said:

I value the mortal wound capability to push out sequitors or other high save units allowing daemonettes to hurt a stardrake or some other 2+ save model

Against HBs with a 3+/4++ 30 Daemonettes (in Epicureans) do 9.75 wounds. 15 Bestigors do 8.75, 20 Bestigors do 11.5. Against a 2+ save with no mortal wounds Daemonettes do 16.27 v. 15 Bestigors do 11.55, 20 Bestigors do 15.18. I am trying to be reasonable regarding the game applications of 32mm bases vs. 25mm bases (an obvious strength of 'Nettes). I think its fair to conclude from the above that against 2+ save targets Daemonettes out perform a similar number of practical bestigors (but obviously lose out in a pure math vacuum of 30 v. 30) where against saves of a 3+ or worse Bestigors peform at the same level as Daemonettes if not slightly better depending on the exact number of models you can get in to combat.

Assuming you play in a meta with lots of 2+ saves (I don't) then I can see the value in Daemonettes. I think given the scope of the meta at large (FEC, DoK, and Skaven being your top tier) the math still favors Bestigors. 

I'm not saying don't use Daemonettes, I'm just saying I don't think 60 Daemonettes in Epicurean is the best option available. I'd rather spend about 480 of those points on more characters to generate more DP. 

**Note the above math does not reflect the additional bonus Bestigors would receive against any unit being an ORDER unit because I already factored in a re-roll 1s to hit for both units. Also Daemonettes do see a boost when fighting units of less than 10 models because Bestigors hit on 4s at that point rather than 3s. This does mean though that Bestigors do better against armies with negatives to hit than Daemonettes do. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Poryague]

16 minutes ago, carnith said:

My thought is that now the nettes can help punch through high toughness targets. The 20 hearthguard with a 3+/4++ will be hurt more by the daemonettes. And if you don’t spend the command point on the nettes to pile in, you can use it on the keeper to help push through elsewhere. Being able to push down an incredibly strong unit to take less retaliation is always good. But at this point I feel we are arguing flavour. I value the mortal wound capability to push out sequitors or other high save units allowing daemonettes to hurt a stardrake or some other 2+ save model

I agree with the flavor. The fact that we can bring BoC into the army and they work good. I would argue BoC works with hedonites better then the other gods . the fact they are viable this speeks volumes about the book design that we can bring them in and they even work so well even if they cant benefit from everything. 

We can build an elite army or horde army with the book. I think its interesting that more stuff was wanted on the mortal side for more options and yet without it we have options that are being argued about.

[SwampHeart]

2 minutes ago, Poryague said:

I would argue BoC works with hedonites better then the other gods .

This is 100% true, I primarily play BoC but have been itching to shift them to a god specific allegiance and HoS is a godsend (no pun intended). I also think people are overlooking the value of Chaos Knights in HoS. 

[Grimrock]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

I'm not saying don't use Daemonettes, I'm just saying I don't think 60 Daemonettes in Epicurean is the best option available. I'd rather spend about 480 of those points on more characters to generate more DP. 

I can definitely agree with that. Unless you really need the extra mortal wounds I don't think Epicurean is worth the cost, heroes really seem to be where it's at with hedonites. I'm pretty comfortable shooting for 6 heroes and minimal battleline at this point, but I do think that having one unit of daemonettes in that battleline is worth considering. 

[Hebroseph]

6 hours ago, Entombet said:

Im strugling how to build army with slaanesh. Army mechanic promote large number of heroes, but aos is objective based and they are controled by hordes.

Use your heros to generate depravity points to summon blocks of daemonettes to hold objectives. 

[Carnith]

It is nice that I can make a slake fray that follows my couple keepers as they spread their influence in my narrative. I’m working at converting enlightened. Even though they can’t go in a depraved drove, they fit a snake theme I want.