AoS 2 - Hosts of Slaanesh Discussion

[CB42]

3 hours ago, Rentar said:

On a separate note, how do you guys think a Slaaneshi army should be build in order to take on all comers? Slaanesh is an army that's naturally excellent against elite and character-focused armies because of how depravity works, but how do you cover your other bases?

I'm seeing problems dealing with:

1) Horde armies
2) Armies with a lot of damage nullification, i.e. FNP
3) Heroes with bubble wrap, especially in horde armies
4) Sniper armies (i.e. Stormcast, Seraphon, possible KO if they get an update, Asgorh, Skyre)

The armies that I suspect Slaanesh will struggle against most are: GHoN, DoK, and Nurgle (ones with a Daemon focus), and possibly Skyre. Any opinions on if this'll be an issue, and if so, how do you build a list around it that can still take advantage of Slaanesh's strengths?

1, 2, 3: Throw dice at it. 30 Daemonettes, 30 Bestigors, 30 Daemonettes fighting twice near a Keeper... if you throw enough dice at it with rend -1, it’ll go away, and we can throw a LOT of dice around very cheaply.

4: Turn 1 charge them. Bestigors, Seekers, Hellstriders, or Chronomantic Cogs + Daemonettes.

Our heroes will dominate enemy heroes and monsters. Our hordes will dominate enemy hordes. And our cavalry or speedy hordes will crush shooting. And our locus and screening allows us to beat enemy alpha strikes. The best lists will incorporate enough of these 4 elements to win against any opponent because we do have the tools to do so.

Edited May 2, 2019 by CB42

[azmodan]

Fiends are excelent vs Elite units in large number and giant monsters

If you send fiends vs blight knights and GUO it is like a no brainer win

Vs army like KO they are tragic 

They are too expensive to put in army roster. They also are a specialized unit.

but i can see that you may want to summon them

 

[Rentar]

3 hours ago, CB42 said:

1, 2, 3: Throw dice at it. 30 Daemonettes, 30 Bestigors, 30 Daemonettes fighting twice near a Keeper... if you throw enough dice at it with rend -1, it’ll go away, and we can throw a LOT of dice around very cheaply.

4: Turn 1 charge them. Bestigors, Seekers, Hellstriders, or Chronomantic Cogs + Daemonettes.

Our heroes will dominate enemy heroes and monsters. Our hordes will dominate enemy hordes. And our cavalry or speedy hordes will crush shooting. And our locus and screening allows us to beat enemy alpha strikes. The best lists will incorporate enough of these 4 elements to win against any opponent because we do have the tools to do so.

Problem here is what happens if they wrap the shooters? A bubblewrap of clanrats around Warp Lightning cannons or a layer of Liberators/Sequitors around Longstrikes/Ballistas etc. When you have strong range and good defense... 

I realize you can play the objective game, but what I mean is more along the lines of... What happens if their firepower is sufficent that it hurts enough that ignoring it is almost impossible? e.g. 9 Longstrikes in Anvils can easily dish out 20+ wounds per round. That's not really something you can ignore, especially since once turn 3 rolls around then can push out and try and gain map superiority, especially if you're playing in something like Blood and Glory where you don't accumulate points in each round. 

[Poryague]

3 hours ago, Rentar said:

Problem here is what happens if they wrap the shooters? A bubblewrap of clanrats around Warp Lightning cannons or a layer of Liberators/Sequitors around Longstrikes/Ballistas etc. When you have strong range and good defense... 

I realize you can play the objective game, but what I mean is more along the lines of... What happens if their firepower is sufficent that it hurts enough that ignoring it is almost impossible? e.g. 9 Longstrikes in Anvils can easily dish out 20+ wounds per round. That's not really something you can ignore, especially since once turn 3 rolls around then can push out and try and gain map superiority, especially if you're playing in something like Blood and Glory where you don't accumulate points in each round. 

Enrapturess can help some with that. Proper use of terrain as well. You will have to use a combination of speed and suprerior numbers. Not saying it will be easy or necessarily fun but it can be done.

[Alexonian]

I tested the new rules yesterday against Fec, bloodiest game Ive played

[Poryague]

3 minutes ago, Alexonian said:

I tested the new rules yesterday against Fec, bloodiest game Ive played

Can we get a bit of a game break down. Like builds and what happened turn by turn that you can remember.

[CB42]

3 hours ago, Rentar said:

Problem here is what happens if they wrap the shooters? A bubblewrap of clanrats around Warp Lightning cannons or a layer of Liberators/Sequitors around Longstrikes/Ballistas etc. When you have strong range and good defense... 

I realize you can play the objective game, but what I mean is more along the lines of... What happens if their firepower is sufficent that it hurts enough that ignoring it is almost impossible? e.g. 9 Longstrikes in Anvils can easily dish out 20+ wounds per round. That's not really something you can ignore, especially since once turn 3 rolls around then can push out and try and gain map superiority, especially if you're playing in something like Blood and Glory where you don't accumulate points in each round. 

Sometimes you gotta charge the bubble wrap and accept that it’ll suck so you can charge the archers behind the bubble wrap next turn. It’s a bad situation but that’s what we get for not having Fly.

In my Depraved Drove / Hedonites list, I’m planning on bringing 210 points of Gors who can launch themselves across the field turn 1 and hit a screen and force on average one save per Gor. They’ll be my cheap bubble wrap poppers so that my Bestigors or Daemonettes can hopefully get in turn 2. But one can probably pop screens with 20 Daemonettes (with Cogs to make the charge) or 10 Seekers or 15 Hellstriders or 3 Seeker Chariots or maybe even one Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot.

[Alexonian]

my list was :

Kos, sinistrous hand, strength of godhood + hunter of godbeasts, sliverslash.

Contorted Epitome, sceptre of domination.

infernal enrapturess

Syll’Esske

herald on exalted chariot

Epicurean revellers

30x daemonettes

30x daemonettes

5x hellstriders

his list (from memory)

Hollowmourne

 

AGK on terrorgheist
AGK on Zombie dragon
archregent
varghulf
crypt haunter courtier

6 crypt horrors
10 ghouls
10 ghouls
extra command point

 

not that much to say about the game, he forced me to go first, I didn't go to far forwards but he got double turn and slammed both AGK on mounts into my kos, but my kos forced one to fight last and my contorted epitome forced the other one to go last, keeper killed one and used its command ability to kill the other one before they could activate, he also slammed in his big unit of horrors and varghulf in to the daemonettes  units, killing one entire unit , used the redonkulous feeding frenzy and killed almost the entire second one.

then I went and summoned another Kos , my general keeper slammed in to the big unit of horrors along syll, herald on chariot and hellstriders was battling against his summoned units,  then it all got very messy and cant remember exactly what happened, but in the end I had the summoned Kos and a summoned unit of fiends on the board and he was wiped turn 4

 

[Poryague]

4 minutes ago, Alexonian said:

my list was :

Kos, sinistrous hand, strength of godhood + hunter of godbeasts, sliverslash.

Contorted Epitome, sceptre of domination.

infernal enrapturess

Syll’Esske

herald on exalted chariot

Epicurean revellers

30x daemonettes

30x daemonettes

5x hellstriders

his list (from memory)

Hollowmourne

 

AGK on terrorgheist
AGK on Zombie dragon
archregent
varghulf
crypt haunter courtier

6 crypt horrors
10 ghouls
10 ghouls
extra command point

 

not that much to say about the game, he forced me to go first, I didn't go to far forwards but he got double turn and slammed both AGK on mounts into my kos, but my kos forced one to fight last and my contorted epitome forced the other one to go last, keeper killed one and used its command ability to kill the other one before they could activate, he also slammed in his big unit of horrors and varghulf in to the daemonettes  units, killing one entire unit , used the redonkulous feeding frenzy and killed almost the entire second one.

then I went and summoned another Kos , my general keeper slammed in to the big unit of horrors along syll, herald on chariot and hellstriders was battling against his summoned units,  then it all got very messy and cant remember exactly what happened, but in the end I had the summoned Kos and a summoned unit of fiends on the board and he was wiped turn 4

 

Ok thanks. I dont think I have heard FEC play Hollowmourn. That ones doesnt seem as good as gristlegore or blisterkin. 

[Alexonian]

6 minutes ago, Poryague said:

Ok thanks. I dont think I have heard FEC play Hollowmourn. That ones doesnt seem as good as gristlegore or blisterkin. 

its not, he likes there fluff and horrors as battleline (we don't really play super competitive at our Lgs)

Edited May 2, 2019 by Alexonian

[SwampHeart]

54 minutes ago, CB42 said:

In my Depraved Drove / Hedonites list, I’m planning on bringing 210 points of Gors who can launch themselves across the field turn 1 and hit a screen and force on average one save per Gor.

I know we've discussed this already but I've been doing some math on it, the only time Gors out perform Ungors is if you get 25+ Gors to swing. Assuming less than 25 Gors, 40 Ungors with Spears (far more likely to get all 40 attacks by virtue of reach and base size) generate 19 wounds versus 20 gors doing also 19 (but obviously Ungors are cheaper per model). 

Gors with all 60 attacks are fantastic with 29 wounds, and still solid at 50 attacks with 24 wounds, However Gors steeply fall off and in to the range of Ungors after that and suffer from losing an attack once they lose 11 models (where the math even more highly favors Ungors). 

Gors hit as hard with 60 attacks as daemonettes (however Daemonettes have 1 better rend and are on 25mm bases making the likelihood of getting all 30 models into combat higher). Additionally when factoring in the Epicureans Battalion for Daemonettes they now generate 10 MWs and 19 rend 1 wounds per unit at maximum capacity and outpacing Gors. 

I cannot find a mathematically sound scenario where Gors are not outclassed either by Ungors (cheaper for similar wound generation) or daemonettes (more expensive but more effective wound generation) when evaluating battle line selections. 

Edited May 2, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Rock Lobster]

I think he following list is really strong - tempted to pick up the beasts of chaos necessary for it, it is hero hammer:

Beastman shaman

3 x 10 ungor raiders (battleline)

depraved drove

3 x keeper of secrets

Epitome

Enrapturess

Slaanesh hero battalion

(30 points spare)

I havn't finalized my pick for items, but tempted by the ghyran items for +1 attack and +1 to hit and wound and then a 3rd item for the 3rd keeper. I think it needs to be seekers or invaders so the 5 characters can sit in the battalion.

Benefits of the list are:

2 drops

start with 2 command points - every turn gain normal command point and a 5/6 chance for a 2nd so plenty to get on with.

54 depravity is a nice little pool in wounds alone. Enough that even if I killed nothing I could summon 3 exalted seeker charriots.

The ungor are a great sacrifice, only 60 points each and within 12" of the beast lord can move 10" - 15" a turn to capture objectives, particularly central objectives and force the enemy to the middle of the board.

The shamans devolve spell is useful for potentially pulling screens out of position and allowing space for characters to slip by.

Magic defence is solid, force opponent to reroll successful casts within 24" of enrapturess and reroll fail unbinds from Epitome, it is a pain for an opponent hoping for magical dominance.

3 keepers all with artifacts - lot of potential options here, offensive and defensive - the redundancy makes it likely to keep command ability on the table against shooty lists.

You potentially start turn 1 with 4 command points and gain potentially 2 a turn - that is a lot of double attacking, enough for 2 turns with all 3 keepers.

[SwampHeart]

10 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

3 x 10 ungor raiders (battleline)

Based on your post I assume these are Ungors and not Ungor Raiders right? Ungors have spears or hand weapons, Raiders have bows, and raiders aren't battle line. However you described them as costing 60 points so I'm guessing you meant Ungors?

Edited May 2, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Rock Lobster]

56 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Based on your post I assume these are Ungors and not Ungor Raiders right? Ungors have spears or hand weapons, Raiders have bows, and raiders aren't battle line. However you described them as costing 60 points so I'm guessing you meant Ungors?

Correct

[Rock Lobster]

1 hour ago, SwampHeart said:

I know we've discussed this already but I've been doing some math on it, the only time Gors out perform Ungors is if you get 25+ Gors to swing. Assuming less than 25 Gors, 40 Ungors with Spears (far more likely to get all 40 attacks by virtue of reach and base size) generate 19 wounds versus 20 gors doing also 19 (but obviously Ungors are cheaper per model). 

Gors with all 60 attacks are fantastic with 29 wounds, and still solid at 50 attacks with 24 wounds, However Gors steeply fall off and in to the range of Ungors after that and suffer from losing an attack once they lose 11 models (where the math even more highly favors Ungors). 

Gors hit as hard with 60 attacks as daemonettes (however Daemonettes have 1 better rend and are on 25mm bases making the likelihood of getting all 30 models into combat higher). Additionally when factoring in the Epicureans Battalion for Daemonettes they now generate 10 MWs and 19 rend 1 wounds per unit at maximum capacity and outpacing Gors. 

I cannot find a mathematically sound scenario where Gors are not outclassed either by Ungors (cheaper for similar wound generation) or daemonettes (more expensive but more effective wound generation) when evaluating battle line selections. 

The Gors base size is the killer for me, if they were 25mm I think they would be a super solid choice - the 4+ save in combat is very handy and getting 3 max size units on the battlefield for 630 points is great. As it is, ungor seem like a really solid choice for board control sacrificial units etc.

My only concern with the big units is they can actually get in the way of your characters which dont really need to be screened because of the always strikes last ability. It might be better to have 3-6 10 man units to just run around jumping on objectives and forcing your opponent to deal with them and draw them towards your killy units.

[SugarMaple82]

1 hour ago, Rock Lobster said:

I think he following list is really strong - tempted to pick up the beasts of chaos necessary for it, it is hero hammer:

Beastman shaman

3 x 10 ungor raiders (battleline)

depraved drove

3 x keeper of secrets

Epitome

Enrapturess

Slaanesh hero battalion

(30 points spare)

 

I was looking at a very similar list but replacing some heroes with 30 bestigors - they seem crazy strong with the exploding 6s for only 300 pts

 It would look something like:

3x Keeper

hero battalion (1200)

3x10 ungors 

30 bestigors

beastman shaman

depraved drove (730)

 

or alternatively

2x Keeper

Infernal enrapturess

hero battalion (960)

3x 10 ungors 

2x30 bestigors

beastman shaman

depraved drone (1030)

 

4 casters, items on 2 keepers and 2 (3  in the first list) command points off the bat for the keepers with a  backup of cheap, fast, heavy hitting blocks of guys 

[Rock Lobster]

18 minutes ago, SugarMaple82 said:

I was looking at a very similar list but replacing some heroes with 30 bestigors - they seem crazy strong with the exploding 6s for only 300 pts

 It would look something like:

3x Keeper

hero battalion (1200)

3x10 ungors 

30 bestigors

beastman shaman

depraved drove (730)

 

or alternatively

2x Keeper

Infernal enrapturess

hero battalion (960)

3x 10 ungors 

2x30 bestigors

beastman shaman

depraved drone (1030)

 

4 casters, items on 2 keepers and 2 (3  in the first list) command points off the bat for the keepers with a  backup of cheap, fast, heavy hitting blocks of guys 

I think those are both potentially solid lists, a lot of bodies that pack a punch. Those bestigor are mean in a pretenders army, the only downside is again the 32mm base size and poor morale which requires command points potentially to fix. They hit like a truck though if you charge a horde. Even if only 12 of your 30 men connect that is a shocking 28 wounds at rend -1, and with 2 bites at the apple and a 4" pile in the reality is that any horde gets deleted in a single combat phase.

If they get charged by a small but powerful unit or character they are lot less powerful though, their damage output reduces by 50%. If you can get cogs off though and you roll high or burn a command point though, those bestigor average 26" move run and charge with the shaman nearby which is pretty crazy.

[SugarMaple82]

46 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

I think those are both potentially solid lists, a lot of bodies that pack a punch. Those bestigor are mean in a pretenders army, the only downside is again the 32mm base size and poor morale which requires command points potentially to fix. They hit like a truck though if you charge a horde. Even if only 12 of your 30 men connect that is a shocking 28 wounds at rend -1, and with 2 bites at the apple and a 4" pile in the reality is that any horde gets deleted in a single combat phase.

If they get charged by a small but powerful unit or character they are lot less powerful though, their damage output reduces by 50%. If you can get cogs off though and you roll high or burn a command point though, those bestigor average 26" move run and charge with the shaman nearby which is pretty crazy.

Would this make Shallaxi an option instead of a second Keeper then? May be necessary to counter the smaller hero units but losing the command ability would hurt

[Rock Lobster]

4 minutes ago, SugarMaple82 said:

Would this make Shallaxi an option instead of a second Keeper then? May be necessary to counter the smaller hero units but losing the command ability would hurt

I think you need the redundancy in the command ability. if you face 3 warp lightning cannons with 1 overcharging (pretty standard skaven list) and any other spells, losing 10-18 mortal wounds of characters in a turn is pretty standard. You woundnt want to lose your command ability turn 1, at least you get a turn to hopefully charge in with your units striking twice and the 2nd keeper surviving. Same goes for any shooty list we fight, 2 is 1 and 1 is none - almost all shooting heavy lists will drop a keeper in 1 turn easy so you need at least 2. I personally like the lists with 3 keepers as you can weather a few turns with the command ability intact and the useful greater demon spells and it gives no obvious target priority if you are not pretenders - you can spread out valuable spells and artifacts 3 ways to make it not really a huge deal if they kill 1-2 keepers, and of course you can summon more characters back.

[themortalgod]

2 hours ago, Rock Lobster said:

I think he following list is really strong - tempted to pick up the beasts of chaos necessary for it, it is hero hammer:

Beastman shaman

3 x 10 ungor raiders (battleline)

depraved drove

3 x keeper of secrets

Epitome

Enrapturess

Slaanesh hero battalion

(30 points spare)

I havn't finalized my pick for items, but tempted by the ghyran items for +1 attack and +1 to hit and wound and then a 3rd item for the 3rd keeper. I think it needs to be seekers or invaders so the 5 characters can sit in the battalion.

Benefits of the list are:

2 drops

start with 2 command points - every turn gain normal command point and a 5/6 chance for a 2nd so plenty to get on with.

54 depravity is a nice little pool in wounds alone. Enough that even if I killed nothing I could summon 3 exalted seeker charriots.

The ungor are a great sacrifice, only 60 points each and within 12" of the beast lord can move 10" - 15" a turn to capture objectives, particularly central objectives and force the enemy to the middle of the board.

The shamans devolve spell is useful for potentially pulling screens out of position and allowing space for characters to slip by.

Magic defence is solid, force opponent to reroll successful casts within 24" of enrapturess and reroll fail unbinds from Epitome, it is a pain for an opponent hoping for magical dominance.

3 keepers all with artifacts - lot of potential options here, offensive and defensive - the redundancy makes it likely to keep command ability on the table against shooty lists.

You potentially start turn 1 with 4 command points and gain potentially 2 a turn - that is a lot of double attacking, enough for 2 turns with all 3 keepers.

Personally, I don't really see the value fo Depraved Drove unless you are taking more stuff. Ungors are great at 60pts per 10 but given that you are taking the minimum of everything it is much less of a "deal" when you factor in the 150pts for the battalion.

Consider it this way, you are paying 430 for your depraved drove. It contains 30 Ungor and a Shaman. For the 450pts you could buy a herald + 30 Daemonettes. The latter is simply better than the former for similar pts. Where Depraved Drove becomes insanely good is when you start spamming ungor or bestigor or both so you can really maximize the value of the triple hit on 6s.

Imo a better option would be to drop one keeper to take 30 Bestigore and 10 more Ungor. This puts you in a situation where you have this mega fast and powerful hammer unit. that has the numbers to hold objectives for you. I'd even consider figuring out how to drop the enrapturess to fit in a Shaggoth as for 180pts he is a depravity machine given that he has multiple self heal effects. 
 

[Rock Lobster]

2 minutes ago, themortalgod said:

Personally, I don't really see the value fo Depraved Drove unless you are taking more stuff. Ungors are great at 60pts per 10 but given that you are taking the minimum of everything it is much less of a "deal" when you factor in the 150pts for the battalion.

Consider it this way, you are paying 430 for your depraved drove. It contains 30 Ungor and a Shaman. For the 450pts you could buy a herald + 30 Daemonettes. The latter is simply better than the former for similar pts. Where Depraved Drove becomes insanely good is when you start spamming ungor or bestigor or both so you can really maximize the value of the triple hit on 6s.

Imo a better option would be to drop one keeper to take 30 Bestigore and 10 more Ungor. This puts you in a situation where you have this mega fast and powerful hammer unit. that has the numbers to hold objectives for you. I'd even consider figuring out how to drop the enrapturess to fit in a Shaggoth as for 180pts he is a depravity machine given that he has multiple self heal effects. 
 

I like both suggestions of getting more out of the battalion. Although it is certainly not poor on its own merits. Think of what you get for 430 points which bear in mind is one 130 points more than you would pay minimum battleline tax if you took Hellstriders as battleline.

• Battleline tax paid
• 3 very fast and cheap units for capturing objectives and screening - being under 200 points for all 3 is great for tournaments which award victory points per 200 points of units killed (like the tournaments around here)
• A wizard with a great spell with utility that does something nothing else in the army can do to help mitigate screens and surprise opponent - also cheapest access to the mortal wizard spell for +1 to hit which is very useful
• 4 depravity points built into the character
• an artifact
• a command point
• A single drop for 4 units, allows for a 2 drop for whole army with the hero battalion.

It really is an a bargain for all that. The spell utility alone is a great asset and the cheapness of the units that can be thrown away.

You say the enrapturess and 30 damonettes is better for the same cost, however you still need 200 points of battleline minimum on top of that - thats 200 points not going to depravity generating characters. You have the same depravity points but lose access to the 2 great spells for a shooting attack and some interesting magic defence. You lose 1 cp and an artifact. In fact to catchup in batteline tax and to catchup in CP costs 250points minimum (and you wont get the artifact) which is only 50 points away from 30 bestigor, 30 damonettes or 110 points from another keeper.

I think the best way to go is with that 430 point drop and build from there, gives the artifacts and command points your characters needs, keeps drops low, adds utility and allows you to go in any direction you want after that, increasing beastmen contingent, hero hammer or slaanesh demon units.

The only time I would stray from this as an ideal list base would be the mortal wounds battalion, then its go pretenders and 60-90 damonettes, cogs and shove them in peoples faces with a couple of keepers and cp - no beastmen required.

 

[Carnith]

THe shaman isn’t a mortal so he will only have devolve. You would use them as buffers for your beast units and can cast endless spells. Making one the keeper of the rod of misuse can work as he’s small enough to run away and stay hidden. 

[Rock Lobster]

1 hour ago, carnith said:

THe shaman isn’t a mortal so he will only have devolve. You would use them as buffers for your beast units and can cast endless spells. Making one the keeper of the rod of misuse can work as he’s small enough to run away and stay hidden. 

The rod of misrule is certainly an interesting option, very good chance with the hero battalion you can generate 3 cp a turn including the normal 1, that enough to power all keepers to strike twice.

[Alexonian]

I currently own 18 (new) fiends , thinking of trying to sell 9-12 of them, never going to use them all now

[Enoby]

Just now, Alexonian said:

I currently own 18 (new) fiends , thinking of trying to sell 9-12 of them, never going to use them all now

While they're not as good, they are still very much usable in a list themed around fiends. Maybe not the most competitive, but definitely not a terrible choice for a gimmick.