AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion

[Ravinsild]

5 hours ago, Honk said:

I would switch spells around a bit, to secure more healing with Big N. Maybe he should get VT and the vamp the orb. As said before, objective grabbing  will hard, so you have to play pretty aggressive.

portal-hod combo is strong, but I really like necro on vortex better. Casting OD and van hels while having +1 save just feels right to me...

with the morghast I like the fast harbringer more, but if your meta is mw heavy, the extra save may be needed.

Fresh new take, really digging it.

March and cogs makes them bones quick again.

As said above, like the vortex more than the portal, but whatever...

 

Best of luck to both of you!!

 

Yeah, I have heard Death is the ultimate attrition army, but one of the main weaknesses is being so slow. Being able to quickly engage in combat means the attrition can start sooner. 

Between my many heroes, all of whom have Deathly Invocations, Graveyards, Legions Innumerable and even the command trait Endless Legions, getting stuck in ASAP shouldn’t be a problem to start grinding them down whilst constantly replenishing models. 

I mostly included Morghasts because I didn’t want to waste one of the battletraits, and I do think they’re alright. They have the speed to keep up despite not being Deathrattle but they don’t benefit much from the command trait or VHD. 

Overall I am not really sure what it means to be an attrition army, but a much faster than expected hard hitting force should take many people by surprise. 

[Honk]

5 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

a much faster than expected hard hitting force 

Grand Host Morghast with a Vamp lord buddy healing with VT and Command Ability for 5 attacks per halberd, brutal!!! And funny

[Hot Peanut]

57 minutes ago, Honk said:

Grand Host Morghast with a Vamp lord buddy healing with VT and Command Ability for 5 attacks per halberd, brutal!!! And funny

yeah I will try them on my next games, You just have to play them aggressive. 

[Ravinsild]

12 hours ago, Honk said:

Grand Host Morghast with a Vamp lord buddy healing with VT and Command Ability for 5 attacks per halberd, brutal!!! And funny

Yes, there’s 2 ways I could play it. Way #1 is to have the Mortis Engine and Vampire Lord escort and follow my Wight King general everywhere he goes to heal him when needed to keep my ability to use Endless Legions intact as well as keeping my Battalion bonus going. 

The second is to have them escort the Morghast Harbingers and heal them instead whilst buffing their attacks even further. 

The main issue is how to keep my 5 wound Wight King alive. He has a 3+ save with a 6+ FNP, but it’s just a matter of the right artifact to give him that much longer life span. 

Deathforged Chain is an automatic healing of 1 wound every hero phase should he ever be injured. 

Balefire Lanturn causes all enemies attacking him within 6” to be at -1 wound rolls. 

Ossific Diadem gives him a 6+++

Gryph-Feather Charm is a -1 to be hit and a +1 movement speed. 

Ethereal Amulet makes it so his 3+ save cannot be modified by rend, or at the very least ignores rend of -1. 

With only 5 wounds protecting him and keeping him alive is quite important, so what’s the most beneficial choice? Constant healing, less likely to be hit, wounded or an unmodifiable save roll, or three chances to nullify wounds altogether? 

The Morghasts are an elite hammer unit meant to take out the strongest enemy units (like Skullreapers, Brutes or a Megaboss on Maw-Krusha or something) so sending my Wight King in with them is dangerous and puts him at risk but lowers their support, should I keep the escort with the WK. 

I’m not sure what the best way to do it is. Maybe just keep the WK out of combat and supporting from behind with Deathly Invocations and Deathless Minions. 

 

 

[Honk]

Always tricky to protect a low hp general... first, keep him out of melee, so much for the obvious.

If your opponent tries to focus on him (standing within a 40cal skelli block) he has to shoot at him or mortal wound him.

Not sure how the math goes, but generally I think a „don’t even hit me“-approach is right under most circumstances. Together with the look out sir (-1 to hit) the gryph feather has him at -2 to hit, resulting in 6+ for kurnoth and skyfires (5+ for champ). Together with OD from a necromancer that reliably can save your wightking from most shooting (stupid lobgstrikes). Together with being 30“ away from the frontline.  XD

healing him is not an option imo, because if your opponent decides to shoot at him, the full squad will target him. With the statistics done...12 shots (6kurnoth) 6 should hit (4+), 4should wound (3+) 2 cause damage (3+\4+) for 4 damage (d3~2) without calculating the champ, so very close to one shot...

and I think the hard -2 has a bigger mental impact than -1 to hit and -1 to wound, even if the math might say different. Your opponent will search for easier prey, if you laugh in his face, that the kurnoth hit on 7s, but the champ might as well try his luck.

if they need more than 2 rounds of shooting, all is well, since it’s round 4/5 already. 

Direct mortal wound spam should be manageable with the two necros and vamp to unbind.

Soooo... against heavy shooting, defensive play with feather charm, against melee offensive play with ossific diadem for the skellis 

[Vipoid]

I hope I'm posting this in the right thread, but I'm a returning VC player looking to give Age of Sigmar a go.

I've had a go at making a list and I'm looking for feedback on it, as well as any general advice you'd care to give me. 

Grand Host of Nagash
Vampire Lord w/ Wings, Chalice - 140 (Vile Transference, Terrorgheist Mantle) 
Vampire Lord w/ Chalice - 140 (Spirit Gale) 
Vampire Lord w/ Chalice - 140 (Soul Pike) 
Necromancer - 110 (Soul Harvest, General - Ancient Strategist) 
Necromancer - 110 (Overwhelming Dread) 
30 Grave Guard w/ Shields - 420 (Musician & Banner) 
40 Skeletons w/ swords - 280 (Musician & Banner) 
40 Skeletons w/ swords - 280 (Musician & Banner) 
Corpse Cart w/ Unholy Lodestone - 80 
Terrorgheist - 300 
2000pts 

- I really didn't want to use any special characters in this list, hopefully I'm not crippling myself by not including Nagash. That aside, I wasn't really sure what to do regarding Leaders. Do I have too many or the wrong types? I have a Wight King, some Cairn Wraiths and two Tomb Banshees if they're any use.

- I wanted to give the Terrorgheist Mantle a go, but I thought it would be better on a hero that wasn't my general. Anyone know if it's decent? If not, what about the Deathforged Chain?

- I wanted Vile Transferance on my winged vampire, but otherwise I really wasn't sure which spells to choose. I ended up picking Soul Harvest on my General simply because I'm using a model with a scythe (unless things go badly wrong, he probably won't be casting it very often ?). So, yeah, I really have no idea which spells are the most useful (and whether I should pick multiples of the same spell or try for some variety), so any help here would be appreciated. 

- I thought a backline general might be better (hence my choosing a Necromancer instead of a Vampire Lord), anyone know if this is a wise strategy or not? They don't have a command ability, so does that make them a poor choice for this role?

In terms of strategy, I'd planned to advance the blocks of Grave Guard and Skeletons in front. The Corpse Cart would go behind, ideally close enough to give a couple of them the benefit of its aura. My casters will hopefully all be close enough to gain the benefits of its Lodestone. The Terrorgheist will go wherever it's needed. My casters will all stay back initially, concentrating on supporting the rank&file with spells and hopefully wearing down the enemy. The winged vampire will mostly attempt to contribute at range, using his Terrorgheist Shriek from behind ranks of skeletons or grave guard, along with Vile Transference (which might help heal up the Terrorgheist). Once the enemy has been softened up, the non-winged vampires will join the action, probably against whatever enemies are giving my infantry the most trouble. I'll try to avoid losing them, since they're useful support pieces, but I'm willing to sacrifice one or even both if I think it's worth it.

Anyway, I've got basically no experience with Age of Sigmar, so any advice would be most welcome.

[jobume]

Continuing my tradition of reporting my tournament adventures in this thread. I went to Swedens largest tournament this weekend (40 players) with this list: Nagash (Transference, Pinions, Dread), Necro (Fading vigour, Diadem), 40 Skeletons (spears), 40 Skeletons (swords), 2x5 wolves, 9 spirits, Geminids.

I finished in second place on four major wins and a minor loss. I won major wins against Seraphon Temple guard, Stormcast Cavalry, Khorne MSU and Mixed order with Alarielle and Phoenix. Took a minor loss on Duality against Tzeench. The nine spirit hosts were supposed to be Grimghasts, but I didn't get time to paint them. They were pretty okay and actually won me the game against 2+ ignore rend Saurus guards. I will replace them later on though. I liked the list, but I was missing portal. Geminids is absurdly good however, and now I think I will have to try to fit them both in.

/ JOB

[Honk]

11 hours ago, Vipoid said:

I hope I'm posting this in the right thread, 

Who cares?! Welcome back!!!

 

11 hours ago, Vipoid said:

Deathforged Chain?

Please no... +1hp will not do anything once your hero is in trouble, maybe for your necro-general

 

11 hours ago, Vipoid said:

They don't have a command ability,

No problem, the basic have greater range if used by your general 12“/6“ but everybody use cp. only your general resummons destroyed unit, so keep him save.

11 hours ago, Vipoid said:

Anyway, I've got basically no experience with Age of Sigmar, so any advice would be most welcome.

Sooo... now to my 2ct: (irony/sarcasm/ humorous attempt on)

prepare to get crushed! Your list s^cks! Burn it, how dare you?! Your the worst general ever, how can you put your pieces like that on the board? What a blunder...

get good noob!

...

now btt

your list is pretty decent for a friendly game, grab somebody who plays that way with a newcomer. When I started AoS '15 I bumped into the local undefeated with his ironjawz list, who lawnmowered me like 3-4 times, before I started to understand AoS. Very nice guy though...but highly competitive.

that was the social tip, now strategy:

AoS is totally different from WHF! Fast and objective oriented. You can loose all your models round 3 but still win on points, because you killed his scoring heroes or held 3/4 objectives for three rounds leading 15:3 and he can score 13 max...

your units are slow, and that was nicely put, move them right to max deployment and push right for objectives. ( Pro-Tip: running vampire summoning unit from gravesites is advanced tactical might, try when fielding this list a second time...)

graveguard are blender units, supported and buffed they mince everything, just have to get somewhere, except when fighting beastclaws, moohcow stampede will come for you.

talking of which, your heroes are essential carry huge bullseyes on their forehead and are not protected from within a unit... learn from skaven champions and hide behind buildings and stuff, line of sight is a thing. But also stay close to your units, for -1 to hit, and the buffs they need.  Tricky, but such is life ?

oh, and skellis are good now... high amount of attacks and good staying power. Bravery is differently from back then.

the terrogheist should maybe tag-team with the vile transference vamp(stay near, no fighting for you my lord). Opponent might focus on big bad first, then realize the buff and try to reach your vamp. 

And beware of the 3“ no-go-Zone while piling in, don’t want to pull extra units into combat, or maybe you do, but beware... happily piling in your dudes and suddenly thinking, why is my opponent smiling so evilly?!

everything can kill everything now, casualties are removed as wished, so fe your blender vamp can’t just charge into a big unit, kill the first rank and say tough luck. The non-comparing approach makes it, his 5 hp are gone after... calculating... more calculating... raging calculations

5           6           12            24       48

 Hp   6+ DM  4+Save  4+w   4+h

So 48 attacks on 4+ will turn into 24 hits on 4+ will turn into 12 wounds will turn into 6 damage, one deathless minion... -5 hp dead... sounds a lot, but 20 skellis will do that to you in two turns of fighting even without support. All your (opponents) characters or monsters can be statisticallinated, providing you get enough attacks in...

Gravesite placement... depends on scenario, since your pretty slow, I would suggest a flat diamond shape at the 40% line

that should be enough rambling for now, wish you a lot of fun, print out all your rules and unit scrolls and spells as ref. sheets rummaging through the book is tiresome, especially as a new player, you have to look up a lot.

 

may Nagash be with you...

 

 

[Vipoid]

@Honk

Thanks a lot for your feedback and advice. I'll have the flying Vampire stick next to his Terrorgheist buddy as you suggest, and push the rest of my army towards the objectives.

I'll admit that I find my heroes' stats concerning. Can they not hide behind other units like they can in Warmachine or 40k? It seems a bit demeaning that Vampire Lords are reduced to cowering behind trees.  Did they all just forget how armour works? ?

Also, is The Hunger on Vampires just a trap ability? It seems like they'll take far more damage from being in combat than the measly 1 wound they'll heal with it.

[Honk]

4 hours ago, Vipoid said:

Also, is The Hunger on Vampires

Yes it is... as I tried to calculate for you, a bunch of guys will kill you. The chalice brings you back, but one hp regen every turn kinda meeeh. Please don’t quote me on that, when it wins you a game ?

And no, no hiding from shooting in AoS. if your within range, you are a viable target, for artillery. If they have LoS the rest bowslingers join the sharpshooter contests. Nearby units with 3+ models gives -1 to hit if target is not a monster aaaand you can bind enemy shooters in combat. They have to fire against the unit attacking them...

[AverageBoss]

Best thing to do with a Vampire Lord to keep him alive, is to hide him in a forest, since 1" blocks line of sight. Wont protect him if he or the unit targeting him has fly though.

[Diemer84]

Hot Peanut... How did you tournament go? I liked your lists and am curious...

[Vipoid]

5 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

Best thing to do with a Vampire Lord to keep him alive, is to hide him in a forest, since 1" blocks line of sight. Wont protect him if he or the unit targeting him has fly though.

So if I give my Vampire Flying Horror, he's completely screwed as a result?

[Honk]

23 minutes ago, Vipoid said:

he's completely screwed as a result?

Not the way we play it here...?

flying models ignore terrain while moving and 1“ of forest denies line of sight (better talk with your opponent about that, wildwoods vs forest). Since after your move you have to place your model somewhere legal, at least the way I played it (till maybe in a few responses ?), he is on the ground and benefits from cover/denial los.

otherwise I‘ll say first he flies 4“ high and then 6“ horizontal and hovers over your army 

[AverageBoss]

2 hours ago, Honk said:

Not the way we play it here...?

flying models ignore terrain while moving and 1“ of forest denies line of sight (better talk with your opponent about that, wildwoods vs forest). Since after your move you have to place your model somewhere legal, at least the way I played it (till maybe in a few responses ?), he is on the ground and benefits from cover/denial los.

otherwise I‘ll say first he flies 4“ high and then 6“ horizontal and hovers over your army 

The warscroll for forests says "Models are not visible to each other if an imaginary straight line 1mm wide drawn between the closest points of the two models crosses over more than 1"of the base of a Citadel Wood. This scenery rule does not apply if either model can fly."

And the Sylvaneth FAQ states that wildwoods also have citadel woods rules:

"Q: Does the Overgrown Wilderness scenery rule apply to the Citadel Woods that make up a Sylvaneth Wyldwood?
A: Yes."

[Vipoid]

Just now, AverageBoss said:

The warscroll for forests says "Models are not visible to each other if an imaginary straight line 1mm wide drawn between the closest points of the two models crosses over more than 1"of the base of a Citadel Wood. This scenery rule does not apply if either model can fly."

And the Sylvaneth FAQ states that wildwoods also have citadel woods rules:

"Q: Does the Overgrown Wilderness scenery rule apply to the Citadel Woods that make up a Sylvaneth Wyldwood?
A: Yes."

I guess vampires, in addition to now suffering from brittle bone disease, are also too stupid to use a forest as cover. Wonderful.

I have to say, my enthusiasm for AoS is already starting to wane. 

[AverageBoss]

Just now, Vipoid said:

I guess vampires, in addition to now suffering from brittle bone disease, are also too stupid to use a forest as cover. Wonderful.

I have to say, my enthusiasm for AoS is already starting to wane. 

You can always go with an on foot or nightmare mounted vampire (my personal choice).

[Vipoid]

Just now, AverageBoss said:

You can always go with an on foot or nightmare mounted vampire (my personal choice).

Surely he'd already be on foot? He'd just have a pair of wings or something.

But, yeah, this is looking to be the pattern for AoS. Would you like a fun/flavourful option or a good option, because the two are mutually exclusive?

[AverageBoss]

1 minute ago, Vipoid said:

Surely he'd already be on foot? He'd just have a pair of wings or something.

But, yeah, this is looking to be the pattern for AoS. Would you like a fun/flavourful option or a good option, because the two are mutually exclusive?

Each of the 3 options has its own ups and downs.

On foot and flying both have smaller profiles, so are easier to block.

Flying and on horse are the faster options.

Flying is the only version that can fly other models and terrain. And while things specifically ignore forests when tracing line of sight to him, as a double edged sword, he ignores the forest too.

[Sception]

Before the new forest rules, the flying vamp was the obvious best vamp to the point that using either of the others was just dumb.  Now it's only /arguably/ still the best vamp, since it's still the fastest, and can move over models, and is still small and easier to hide behind LOS blocking terrain.  That there is /even one/ thing that the on foot or mounted vamps can do better doesn't strike me as a problem.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Sception

[Vipoid]

1 hour ago, AverageBoss said:

Each of the 3 options has its own ups and downs.

On foot and flying both have smaller profiles, so are easier to block.

Flying and on horse are the faster options.

Flying is the only version that can fly other models and terrain. And while things specifically ignore forests when tracing line of sight to him, as a double edged sword, he ignores the forest too.

'Easier to block' is irrelevant because AoS uses the godawful TloS system whereby if an opponent can see even a square nanometer of a vampire's cloak, then every bow and piece of artillery can shoot at him with basically no penalty.

Get the Vlad von Carsten model (just a normal Vampire Lord now, but still) and place him behind, say, 40 Grave in tight formation. You try getting it such that no part of him, his sword or his elaborate cloak can be seen.

Also, given that Vampires don't have ranged weapons, ignoring LoS over forests in return for the enemy being able to freely shoot you back is an absolutely terrible trade-off. And that's before we get into the fact that Vampires are fragile but highly important support pieces. Sorry but this isn't a double-edged sword, it's a crossbow that only works when you're pointing it up your own nose.  

[AverageBoss]

1 minute ago, Vipoid said:

'Easier to block' is irrelevant because AoS uses the godawful TloS system whereby if an opponent can see even a square nanometer of a vampire's cloak, then every bow and piece of artillery can shoot at him with basically no penalty.

Get the Vlad von Carsten model (just a normal Vampire Lord now, but still) and place him behind, say, 40 Grave in tight formation. You try getting it such that no part of him, his sword or his elaborate cloak can be seen.

Also, given that Vampires don't have ranged weapons, ignoring LoS over forests in return for the enemy being able to freely shoot you back is an absolutely terrible trade-off. And that's before we get into the fact that Vampires are fragile but highly important support pieces. Sorry but this isn't a double-edged sword, it's a crossbow that only works when you're pointing it up your own nose.  

The foot and flying models are almost half the size of the mounted one, same for base size. I agree that true line of sight is terrible, but they are easier to hide, factually. You can also hide them behind terrain features.

Los also matters for charges and some spells, that's where it come into play for the vampire.

[Honk]

2 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

This scenery rule does not apply if either model can fly."

Maybe you only can ignore it if you are able to fly... like prosecutors or the knight-venator. they see you, because they look from above?!

Still get your cover bonus... ??‍♀️

[Hot Peanut]

7 hours ago, Diemer84 said:

 

Hot Peanut... How did you tournament go? I liked your lists and am curious...

 

Hi, yeah it was amazing, had some real fun and it was quite cool to play with all matched rules and realms.

I have to say Nagash is a beast and, in my opinion, overpowered. This Hand of Dust spell is not only way out of a matched mind, it is also very frustrating for enemies, at least that is my opinion, but I will kepp playing with him and hope that GW will nerv that spell. I had a match against Skaven and in my first turn, beforte my opponent could do anything, I casted a Spellportal and then dusted his Thanquol and Boneripper.  So 400pts removed... this is just too much with a 3+ on casting.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Hot Peanut

[AverageBoss]

I would do 3 things to hit Nagash personally.

*Change Hand of Dust (too swingy imo, and most certainly an NPE when it goes off).
*Make it so the 2nd spell portal must be placed further than 9" from enemy models (mostly to stop the portal/HoD combo).
*When casting realm spells, all wizards ignore bonuses to casting rolls (this is for more than just Nagash).