swarmofseals Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 @Sception @ianob, I'm in this camp too. While it's nice that Death has an "above the curve" unit or two, it's annoying how much it crowds out. I've got a big block of painted GG, too. The sad thing is that GG were poised to be relevant in the new edition! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 I personally thing gg were still not good enough. 30 guard are 140 points more than 40 skeletons. That's a whole vampire lord. GG are stronger than skeletons, but they're not 10 men and one of our best small heros stronger. Grimghasts just make it so super obvious that it cannot be ignored. GG could be 100 points cheaper for a full unit and they'd still have a hard time comparing to the reapers. I hope and pray for a deathrattle battle tome that dramatically reworks the unit, but given that GW has had baducally six chances at this unit and they've bately been touched... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 5 hours ago, Sception said: hope and pray for a deathrattle battle tome Tomb Kings!!! We have the ghosts, we have the vampyres... now we need the mummies back!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Bob Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 20 hours ago, Sception said: griping start // <snip> And yet every time I look at their rules, 30 grimghasts jusy look more and more like the best unit available to the army by a country mile. Not just grave guard, but morghasts (even in LoN!), vargheists, knights of all varieties... <snip> // griping over Perfect post Sception. 99% of it is factual or feels likely to be right in the future. I just want to jump in a qualifier on Morghasts Harbingers in The Grand Host of Nagash. Four of them with Spirit Halberds is a brutal hammer. The Allegiance buff fixes their low dice count verses point cost. Toss that on the obscene amount of rend and damage. Lastly with their crazy charge rules the only way they can fail is poor tactical decisions or a bad dice role. During our local groups tournament day capping a league they deleted a unit of 20x Blood Letters before the moral phase and on a double turn did the same to a Blood Thirster. In fact about the only unit I wouldn’t want to haphazardly throw them on would be a 30x Grimghast Reaper unit. Hmmm... stupid ethereal saves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 4 hours ago, Honk said: Tomb Kings!!! We have the ghosts, we have the vampyres... now we need the mummies back!!! I dont know. I dont really see a way to do them that is both true to their oldhammer character which would require them to be opposed to Nagash the Traitor, and true to the fluff of age of sigmar, which would require suborning their will to that of Nagash the Deity. Imo better to skirt the issue by expanding deathrattle in a way that allows for a greater portion of the old tomb king range to be run in a counts-as fashion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swarmofseals Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 @Sception I think you are overstating it a bit. Assuming we're going with Great Wight Blades: Grave Guard provide .0807 rend 1 damage per point. Skeleton Warriors provide .108 rend 0 damage per point. Grimghast Reapers provide .0833 rend 1 damage per point against 5+ model targets and .0556 rend 1 damage per point against targets with fewer than 5 models. Against saves of -, rend 1 and 0 are the same. Against saves of 6+, rend 1 is 20% better than rend 0. Against saves of 5+, rend 1 is 25% better than rend 0. Against saves of 4+, rend 1 is 33% better than rend 0. Against saves of 3+, rend 1 is 50% better than rend 0. Against saves of 2+, rend 1 is 100% better than rend 0. So against Armor -, skeletons are clearly better on offense, and they are also slightly better against Armor 6+ and 5+. Against Armor 4+, Grave Guard are better and against 3+ and 2+ Grave Guard are VASTLY better. Grimghasts are better than Grave Guard by a little bit against units of 5+ models, while Grave Guard are vastly better against units under 5 models. It's also worth considering that Grave Guard scale a lot better with extra attacks than skeletons do. Adding an extra attack to a skeleton unit increases the rend 0 damage per point by .0358 while adding an extra attack to Grave Guard increases their rend 1 damage per point by .0397. So with +1 attack the skeletons are at .1438 rend 0 per point and Grave Guard are at .1204 rend 1 per point. That's enough to make Grave Guard better against everything except models with no save at all. Extra attacks scale similarly between Grave Guard and grimghasts, but it's possible to buff GG attacks passively while buffing grimghast attacks requires CP use (as far as I recall). So while I think Grave Guard might have a slight edge over grimghasts on offense, they become clearly better on offense if you are running Grand Host of Nagash with Lord of Nagashizzar. All that being said, I still agree that Grave Guard are hard to imagine fitting in because Grimghast Reapers are vastly better on defense and are twice as fast (with flying, too). But it's not fair to say that grimghasts dominate them in every way. If grimghasts didn't exist, then there would be a legitimate reason to take them over Skeleton Warriors if you planned to scale their attacks. The defensive difference between Grave Guard and skeletons is very large, but it matters a lot less when you can fully revive a destroyed unit. Granted this isn't 100% reliable, but it does go a long way toward making Grave Guard potentially viable. Their offense has always been great, but their defense was so bad that it didn't matter. Now the ability to bring them back means the defense is much less of an issue. @Evil Bob halberd harbingers are indeed nasty. They do about .048 rend 2 damage per point on average. Rend 2 is equivalent to rend 1 and rend 0 against a save of -. Against a save of 6+ rend 2 and rend 1 are equivalent, and both are 20% better than rend 1. Against a save of 5+, rend 2 is 20% better than rend 1 and 50% better than rend 0. Against a save of 4+, rend 2 is 25% better than rend 1 and 66% better than rend 0. Against a save of 3+, rend 2 is 33% better than rend 1 and 100% better than rend 0. Against a save of 2+, rend 2 is 50% better than rend 1 and 200% better than rend 0. So basically the skeletons do more damage per point except against 2+ save units. Grave Guard do more damage per point even against 2+ saves. Defensively they are pretty much worse than Grave Guard, performing a hair better against rend 0 but worse against anything with rend or mortal wounds, and quite a bit worse if the Ossific Diadem is in play. The main advantage that they have is, of course, greater speed. They have a better move, fly, and charge 3d6 (which is only marginally better than run and charge). But that comes at the cost of not being able to return models, return the unit if destroyed, or benefit from Vanhel's. 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 5 hours ago, Sception said: I dont really see a way to do them... Well all of the new nighthaunt baselines are forced to serve in agony the wishes of our great master... and there were factions and cities who allied and served Nagash (Lhamia comes to mind) although not really enthusiastic (what’d you say Mannfred?!)... and the model line is fantastic. But I guess we had our share now, time for all the other chaps to get some love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Bob Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Death is the only Grand Allaince in the AP that GW had to repost the Warscrolls left and right to cover up how patchy the model line is. Like some cheap combover. They should have just gone with a proud shaved head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thostos Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 My AoS 1.0 Nagash list - Nagash Necromancer VloZD 40 Spear Skellies 5 Direwolves 5 Direwolves 10 Black Knights 5 wins/2 losses with this list,,one loss to getting double turned from Tzeench skyfire,,other one was a similar LoN list. New AoS 2.0 Nagash list,,ill be running this in our regional event next month- Nagash VloZD 40 Spear Skellies 5 Direwolves 10 Chainghasts 20 Grimghast Reapers Portals With the speed and consistant hitting power of the Grimghasts they were a must fit for me to replace the BKs,,,even though my BKs were doing fine.I had to also replace at least one unit of wolves with our new battleline unit of Chainghasts.Dropped the Necro as he was too situational.I see the Reapers as being a real gem for LoN now,,,they beat Morghasts in every way except perhaps the added mobility,,the biggest difference I think between the two is in a Nagash list with Morghasts,,they are almost always the first target to get alpha`d down assuming Nagash isint an option..high rend alpha ruins them easily.20 Grimghasts certainly costs a bit more but are night impossible to alpha down,and since they can be regrown they are a much better choice.Finally,having the min unit wolves and chainghasts give the option of bringing them in out of the grave reliably,,usually to throw them out as to screen out an objective early on,,and now with the no points summoning,the small size units should be easy to bring back late for possible object grabs if needed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 will going crazy with Nagash in a 1500 list, either I crush him or I´ll hit a brickwall Nagash Necromancer - Ossidified Diadem Vampirelord on Horse 30 Skellis 10 Wolves 5 Wolves or I throw out all strategic approaches and go for Necromancer, 2x2 Harbringers and 10 wolves... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou_Cypher Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Portals have just been FAQed so that only one spell can be used through it per turn. Might put a damper on plans if people are relying too much on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swarmofseals Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Yep, very big changes from the FAQ. Most of the broken stuff has been nerfed. Spellportal nerf should hit Nagash lists hard, although being able to Hand of Dust through the portal is still pretty nice. Lens getting nerfed probably helps us more than it hurts us, particularly for Arkhan lists. It also makes Reikenor a more attractive option for an ally choice as his signature spell is actually good. Guardian of Souls in a Legions of Nagash list officially can't take a lore of the dead spell now, which is unsurprising but a little sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) Big Daddy N had a nice clash against durthu playing falling stars. Glad my opponent never got the double turn, and after a round of slapping and namecalling Nagash vile transfered himself back to reasonable health and gave him the final deadly eyebrow... Nagash, a Vamp Lord, 2x2 harbringers and 10 puppies resulting in 1,5k points. The doggies really performed, the list was kinda fast, everybody flying with 9“ but he also brought a pretty elite list (durthu, 2 branchwitches, 2x3 now-hunter, 3 scythe-hunter, 20 dryads and 10 revenants) and he rolled **** ? Edited July 23, 2018 by Honk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Time to tool Nagash up with Soulstealer and get stuck in, I think! If only I wasn’t so bad at successfully rolling.... anything in melee with Nagash. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 14 minutes ago, ianob said: melee with Nagash He did consistent 5 dmg per melee... so kinda underwhelming. but the fireworks really brought the pain. Especially when the dice are hot and you double vile transferance and big arcane bolt... for soul stealer I messed up the bravery roll and I really felt stupid casting mystic shield on Nagash, after proudly declaring mastery over the undead reroll hit&save of 1... but he endured, wiped 3scythe kurnoth with the bravery help of the morghast, he eyeballed durthu to death and b-slapped a branchwraith taking 7 dmg in total, dominating the mid-field. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creatalis Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 There's a league coming up soon and this is the list I was thinking of bringing. I'm not terribly good at the game (Still learning), and don't want to get destroyed. If anyone has advice, I'd very much welcome it. Nagash Supreme Lord Of The Undead (800) - General - Lores of the Dead Spell 1 : Decrepify (Deathmages) - Lores of the Dead Spell 2 : Vile Transference (Vampires) - Lores of the Dead Spell 3 : Spectral Grasp (Deathmages) Shirevan the Dread (110) Necromancer - Lore of the Deathmages : Fading Vigour Imphrech Pale-Heart (110) Necromancer - Artefact : Grave-sand Timeglass - Lore of the Deathmages : Overwhelming Dread Khoraseph Beastcleaver (120) Wight King with Baleful Tomb Blade - Artefact : Ossific Diadem UNITS 2 x Morghast Archai (220) -Spirit Halberds 30 x Skeleton Warriors (240) -Ancient Spears Khorasephs Oathsworn (80) 10 x Skeleton Warriors -Ancient Blades 5 x Hexwraiths (160) BATTALIONS The First Cohort (160) I was thinking of using the hexwraiths to harass ranged units and the wight king to anchor my spear skellie blob. I have 20GG but they only really perform well with the vanhel+lord of bones combo going off. I don't have more skellies unfortunately but I wouldn't be opposed to more morghasts. My hexwraiths are magnetized and can be black knights too; but I'm not sure they're as mobile without flying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soots Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 On 7/22/2018 at 2:57 PM, swarmofseals said: @Sception I think you are overstating it a bit. Assuming we're going with Great Wight Blades: Grave Guard provide .0807 rend 1 damage per point. Skeleton Warriors provide .108 rend 0 damage per point. I just want to add my 2c about the GG v SKello v GrimGh comparison. I havent tried this, but i have a feeling that Glaivewraith Stalkers are a viable option too. They are somewhat similar in the offensive department. The key to this is the minimum unit size. Glaivewraith Stalkers (GS) can be taken in units of 4. This makes it a very difficult proposition against deathstars. who do they attack? how many attacks on each unit? they have 4w with 4+ save and if you dont kill the unit, it will be back full strength - if i get lucky with saves, they would have wasted attacks. If its just 40 skellos, a deathstar will clean up this unit with a massive pile of attacks and battleshock. Against MSU GS, they are going to have to find "enough" attacks to destroy each unit. Add to this the ability to slip in and out of combat and reroll attacks against any unit and they are flexible too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanHammer-darren Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 played a game last night using grimghast reapers, unit of 30. They absorbed a whole ironjaqz army worth of close combat. thats 20 brutes, and a megaboss, and a megaboss on foot, all with 2 extra attacks and all the usual buffs. Whole army killed that unit, then i ressed the unit next turn haha...was kinda of gross.. oh and then hand of dusted the full wounds mawkrusha.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobume Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 I finished 3-2 at BOBO this weekend with Nagash using this list: Nagash (Dread,pinions,transference), Necro(fading vigor,diadem), 40 skellies, 40 skellies, 10 skellies, 2 harbingers, portal, First Cohort. I lost to a Dragonhost and a really cool DoK-list with an ally Eidolon. Won against BCR, DoK and Maggotkin blight cyst. The list felt decent but would have been better without First Cohort. I managed one Portal Hand over five games, and that was in the last turn of the last game against a GUO. Thinking of dropping the portal and going Geminids instead. / JOB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smucreo Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 What about Soulsnare as an endless spell? With how fast the meta seems to be anything to stop charges seems really valuable to me. Would you still play First Cohort? I'm not really liking the Morghast to be honest, I'd much rather have something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolwut Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 On 7/21/2018 at 9:57 PM, swarmofseals said: @Sception I think you are overstating it a bit. Assuming we're going with Great Wight Blades: Grimghast Reapers provide .0833 rend 1 damage per point against 5+ model targets and .0556 rend 1 damage per point against targets with fewer than 5 models. Against saves of -, rend 1 and 0 are the same. Against saves of 6+, rend 1 is 20% better than rend 0. Against saves of 5+, rend 1 is 25% better than rend 0. Against saves of 4+, rend 1 is 33% better than rend 0. Against saves of 3+, rend 1 is 50% better than rend 0. Against saves of 2+, rend 1 is 100% better than rend 0. So against Armor -, skeletons are clearly better on offense, and they are also slightly better against Armor 6+ and 5+. Against Armor 4+, Grave Guard are better and against 3+ and 2+ Grave Guard are VASTLY better. Remember, too, that some units get a passive bonus to their save if the attack has 0 rend. Grave Guard having Rend -1 instead of Rend 0 means Skeleton Warriors go from 5+ to 7+ against Grave Guard. Also some models proc abilities on a save roll of 6. Rend -1 makes this impossible. In regards to Grimghast versus Grave Guard - correct me if i'm wrong, but if you're running anything but a Nighthaunt army, Grimghast can't be a battle line, but Grave Guard can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swarmofseals Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 1 minute ago, lolwut said: Remember, too, that some units get a passive bonus to their save if the attack has 0 rend. Grave Guard having Rend -1 instead of Rend 0 means Skeleton Warriors go from 5+ to 7+ against Grave Guard. Also some models proc abilities on a save roll of 6. Rend -1 makes this impossible. In regards to Grimghast versus Grave Guard - correct me if i'm wrong, but if you're running anything but a Nighthaunt army, Grimghast can't be a battle line, but Grave Guard can. Right, of course. My analysis doesn't factor in every possible target. Generally speaking abilities that allow for rerolls on saves, grant bonuses against rend - attacks or abilities that proc on a save roll of 6 all favor rend. Similarly, some targets ignore rend 1 or ignore rend entirely, and some targets have additional "ward" saves on top of their regular save. Those situations tend to favor rend -. It would take far too long to account for every possible combination of these factors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted August 7, 2018 Author Share Posted August 7, 2018 I was using a unit of 30 Grimghast Reapers last weekend and did ponder if Grave Guard would have served better. The answer I came to was that it was 50/50. In a couple of games the smaller base size would have been very useful - the models tessellate better (no overhanging bits) and double damage would have meant they kicked out more wounds into my opponent. In other games that better move and save meant the Reapers had a lot more impact on the tabletop - and I mean a lot. 8" and bringing back with gravesites & DI meant that I could sweep from one side of the board over to the other more easily than Grave Guard would have allowed. What I would say though is that anything like the Geminoids that can rattle out a -1 attack hampers Reapers a lot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClockworkGeo91 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 23 minutes ago, RuneBrush said: I was using a unit of 30 Grimghast Reapers last weekend and did ponder if Grave Guard would have served better. The answer I came to was that it was 50/50. In a couple of games the smaller base size would have been very useful - the models tessellate better (no overhanging bits) and double damage would have meant they kicked out more wounds into my opponent. In other games that better move and save meant the Reapers had a lot more impact on the tabletop - and I mean a lot. 8" and bringing back with gravesites & DI meant that I could sweep from one side of the board over to the other more easily than Grave Guard would have allowed. What I would say though is that anything like the Geminoids that can rattle out a -1 attack hampers Reapers a lot. Overall can you give us a run down of how your Nighthaunt played? Strengths, weaknesses? Surprising units/or synergies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted August 7, 2018 Author Share Posted August 7, 2018 1 minute ago, ClockworkGeo91 said: Overall can you give us a run down of how your Nighthaunt played? Strengths, weaknesses? Surprising units/or synergies. I've half-written a debrief of my games (doing it from a very dodgy memory!) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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