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AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion


RuneBrush

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8 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

You can only dispell endless spells at the start of the hero phase. So you can only do so before your other casting, not after.

I meant [close and reopen] next turn.  Like, do both next turn.

If you keep doing that, then you don't get to cast other endless spells unless you have other wizards to cast them with though.  Which does put a damper on Nagash's output in terms of shere damage, especially against hordes.

But sitting still with Nagash feels like a waste of Nagash.  He's so expensive, you have to be putting all of his potential to use to justify him, and that includes is maneuverability and melee.  And even if you don't move, your opponent will, and you'll still need to reposition the portals to try for another hand of dust, which you'll probably want to do.

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On 7/4/2018 at 4:35 AM, Sception said:

The new look out sir is -1 to hit for shooting attacks targeting non-monster heroes that are near friendly units of sufficient size.  Not as good as +1 save in many cases, but fully compatible with ethereal.

I absolutely smashed face tonight. Played the mission where you need a wizard or hero with an artefact claiming an objective. Diagonal one. 

The spells worked great - thanks mate. Overwhelming dread and fading vigour were immense. The necromancer got his teeth kicked in half way through though so lost the latter. 

Nagash was unreal. Every turn, open portals, throw merry hell through it, shut them, move forward, and then rinse and repeat the next turn. Managed to HoD Drycha through the portal as well! He dominated the magic phase and ensured nothing went off for my opponent. 

Man of the match has got to be the Wight King though. Him and the Black Knights claimed the furthest marker all game and used 6 hunters as their whipping boys. The ethereal save on the king worked a treat. 

All in, I lost my archai, the necro and the unit of 10 skellies. Exciting times for Death! 

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6 hours ago, Sception said:

Good job!  Remember that endless spells are dispelled only at the start of the hero phase, so you have to leave the doors open for a turn, then close and reopen them next turn.

Just reread my post and it didn't read right. For the portals I meant open them, cast stuff, move forward, then next turn close and then rinse and repeat. 

Edited by lare2
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I'm frankly concerned that the Spellportal will result in either a nerf on the spell itself or Nagash in the near future. I haven't seen it yet in practice (first 2.0 game tomorrow), but the spell takes away Nagash's only real downfall: his limited sphere of influence. Prior, a savvy opponent could limit his effect on the battlefield by committing resources wherever he wasn't. Now, Nagash can sling spells around the battlefield as desired, with his shortest-range spell (Hand of Dust) now reaching out a good 22".  Furthermore, the 30" range unbind allows him to effectively take entire other armies out of the magic phase (taking the new Endless Spells away from less magic-heavy factions). 

We'll see if my fears are unjust, but it feels like he'll just dominate the meta if the Spellportal keeps its current rules.

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24 minutes ago, RoloMcFury said:

I'm frankly concerned that the Spellportal will result in either a nerf on the spell itself or Nagash in the near future. I haven't seen it yet in practice (first 2.0 game tomorrow), but the spell takes away Nagash's only real downfall: his limited sphere of influence. Prior, a savvy opponent could limit his effect on the battlefield by committing resources wherever he wasn't. Now, Nagash can sling spells around the battlefield as desired, with his shortest-range spell (Hand of Dust) now reaching out a good 22".  Furthermore, the 30" range unbind allows him to effectively take entire other armies out of the magic phase (taking the new Endless Spells away from less magic-heavy factions). 

We'll see if my fears are unjust, but it feels like he'll just dominate the meta if the Spellportal keeps its current rules.

My guess is the Spellportal will get nerfed seeing as how almost every faction with magic will be using them. Its popularity isnt just limited to Nagash. For example Tzeentch theorycrafting is having a semi-circle of caster shooting 10-15 spells through the portal and melting anything on the board

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5 hours ago, lare2 said:

It is a bit dominant. Can't speak for Tzeentch but I was expecting Nagash to go back to his original 900pts.

Na they wont nerf individual units for doing really well cuz of the Portal. Look at the Balewind...every faction that could cast took it and now its a shadow of what it once was. It was a huge crutch for list building and now the Portal is

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Yeah, if anything gets nerfed, it will be the portal.  Possible nerfs include: points increase (honestly, portals and purple sun swapping points costs wouldn't be unjustified, imo), shortened range (perhaps only 9" or 12" between gates instead of 18"), only one spell cast through it per turn, etc.

For now, though, it's a dominant force for any magic heavy lists, and spells that would be horrifically overpowered except for their limited range, like hand if dust, are positively silly with it.

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So I’m wanting to run big Nagash with 40 chainrasps , was gonna Chuck in the guardian of souls and spirit torment, however when playing around with list building I guess I need to pick a spell for the guardian, however which lore do I choose from?

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2 hours ago, papary said:

So I’m wanting to run big Nagash with 40 chainrasps , was gonna Chuck in the guardian of souls and spirit torment, however when playing around with list building I guess I need to pick a spell for the guardian, however which lore do I choose from?

From a pure Rule As Written, your Guardian of Souls could pick from either lore.  However it's pretty widely accepted that the Rule as Intended is neither as he's not a Soulblight Wizard or Deathmage Wizard (and equally isn't a Deathlord) - I fully expect this to be tightened in the next FAQ.  It's one of the small disadvantages with including Nighthaunt wizards in a Legions list.

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30 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

From a pure Rule As Written, your Guardian of Souls could pick from either lore.  However it's pretty widely accepted that the Rule as Intended is neither as he's not a Soulblight Wizard or Deathmage Wizard (and equally isn't a Deathlord) - I fully expect this to be tightened in the next FAQ.  It's one of the small disadvantages with including Nighthaunt wizards in a Legions list.

I suppose the advantage is it gives you access to the nighthaunt endless spells if you don’t wanna run Nagash?

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1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

From a pure Rule As Written, your Guardian of Souls could pick from either lore.  However it's pretty widely accepted that the Rule as Intended is neither as he's not a Soulblight Wizard or Deathmage Wizard (and equally isn't a Deathlord) - I fully expect this to be tightened in the next FAQ.  It's one of the small disadvantages with including Nighthaunt wizards in a Legions list.

Legion of Sacrament Commant Trait:

Dark Acolyte: This general is a WIZARD that knows the Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield spells, as well as a single spell from one of the Lores of the Dead. If this general is already a WIZARD, they may generate an additional spell from one of the Lores of the Dead.

 

All Deathmages, Vampire and Deathlord Heros eligible to take this trait are already Wizards. Tell me the point of the underlined text if this is what they intended ;)

This along with the actual RAW allowing "other" wizards to take from either lore leads me to believe it is also how its intended to work.

 

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6 minutes ago, KoalaSnok said:

Legion of Sacrament Commant Trait:

Dark Acolyte: This general is a WIZARD that knows the Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield spells, as well as a single spell from one of the Lores of the Dead. If this general is already a WIZARD, they may generate an additional spell from one of the Lores of the Dead.

All Deathmages, Vampire and Deathlord Heros eligible to take this trait are already Wizards. Tell me the point of the underlined text if this is what they intended ;)

This along with the actual RAW allowing "other" wizards to take from either lore leads me to believe it is also how its intended to work.

This is why it's always worth sending in the question to the GW FAQ team :)

Intention is always going to be down to somebodies interpretation.  I tend to look at RAI from a narrative angle.  In this case the two lores  are to define differences between Necromancers (Deathmages) and Vampires (Soulblight) casting abilities.  The Deathmage list is largely about enfeebling the opponent and Soulblight about damaging the enemy and healing their thralls.  For me the key point is that Deathlords, as the supreme masters of death magic, know both lores.  If the lore restrictions were only to limit vampires and necromancers then the comment about deathlords wouldn't be needed.  Going back to the Guardian of Souls there's nothing from a background perspective that defines them as being as knowledgeable as a mortarch.  So to my eyes the intention is defined by the narrative.

The bit you've underlined could actually back this up too - without that underlined bit the rules for the lores would mean that your Dark Acolyte Wight King wouldn't be able to pick any lore.  That command trait overrides the normal restrictions - they can chose from an extra spell from either lore because they're *that* good.

 

.  To say that a Nighthaunt Wizard has access to the same knowledge as a mortarch just doesn't make sense and if it were meant like that why have the statement that Deathlords can chose from either lore list?  That could have been left out.

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To add weight to Runebrush's take on the matter when you select the GoS in the warscroll builder from the units from the Legions of Nagash list you do not get the choice of a spell. When you pick him from the Nighthaunt list then he is able to pick from the Lore of the Underworlds. 

I also don't agree with the viewpoint that from a RAW perspective that the GoS would be able to pick from a lore in the first place. Sure it states that all Wizards are able to generate a spell from the Lore of the Dead as per their allegiance ability. However I see the second paragraph as condition two. As the GoS is not a Deathmage, Vampire or Deathlord wizard then there is no lore to choose from, despite having the right to a spell. To clarify I can't see how you can take the RAW viewpoint on paragraph one (detailing that Wizards get to take an additional spell) and disregard the second one (ignoring the keywords).

Agreed this needs clarified by GW and I am sure that they will with the next FAQ. 

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3 hours ago, Teuchter said:

To add weight to Runebrush's take on the matter when you select the GoS in the warscroll builder from the units from the Legions of Nagash list you do not get the choice of a spell. When you pick him from the Nighthaunt list then he is able to pick from the Lore of the Underworlds. 

I also don't agree with the viewpoint that from a RAW perspective that the GoS would be able to pick from a lore in the first place. Sure it states that all Wizards are able to generate a spell from the Lore of the Dead as per their allegiance ability. However I see the second paragraph as condition two. As the GoS is not a Deathmage, Vampire or Deathlord wizard then there is no lore to choose from, despite having the right to a spell. To clarify I can't see how you can take the RAW viewpoint on paragraph one (detailing that Wizards get to take an additional spell) and disregard the second one (ignoring the keywords).

Agreed this needs clarified by GW and I am sure that they will with the next FAQ. 

Actually the second paragraph only tells you that deathmages cannot use lore of the vampires and vice versa. Although i do actually agree with Runebrush that the artefact i mentioned is probably just overriding the other rule. 

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11 minutes ago, KoalaSnok said:

Actually the second paragraph only tells you that deathmages cannot use lore of the vampires and vice versa. Although i do actually agree with Runebrush that the artefact i mentioned is probably just overriding the other rule. 

In that case my mistake. I have miss read it. 

If that is the case then i guess RAW you can pick either option, however I do think that the warscroll builder's omission clearly shows RAI. Which to be fair we are not playing too as matched play gamers.  

FAQ me please GW :)

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2 hours ago, Teuchter said:

In that case my mistake. I have miss read it. 

If that is the case then i guess RAW you can pick either option, however I do think that the warscroll builder's omission clearly shows RAI. Which to be fair we are not playing too as matched play gamers.  

FAQ me please GW :)

Warscroll Builder is largely a fan project and makes mistakes/misses things.

Even Azyr, the official GW app can't be trusted (what with 20" melee range Ironguts and hits on 44+ goblins earlier this week).

Neither are good references to make a rules statement on.

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13 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

Warscroll Builder is largely a fan project and makes mistakes/misses things.

Even Azyr, the official GW app can't be trusted (what with 20" melee range Ironguts and hits on 44+ goblins earlier this week).

Neither are good references to make a rules statement on.

Okay well that's fair enough. To be fair in my original post I used the term "to add weight to Runebrush's take", not that it was a matter of fact. I have found that it is largely accurate. Given that it doesn't allow you to choose a spell lore for the GoS in LoN, and I have seen this question asked a number of times on the forums, i think it is worth pointing out.

My point is it is not something to make "rules statements" on... I agree with you, however it is an observation that I thought was interesting and helps paint a picture. i.e x,y,z leads us to think this, while a,b,c, makes us think the opposite. I would be surprised if the warscroll builder is not also proofed by their team, even if it is largely user created. I wouldn't dismiss it so easily. 

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At a tournament today. Played the exact list I posted above. Won 2 out of 3. Absolutely smashed it and only got beat in the first game by... A First Cohort army! His Nagash took out mine with HoD - ha ha! 

I'm now 3 wins and 1 loss in the new edition and I've gotta say, we are definitely in a good position at the minute. Super pumped for the future. 

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Reflecting on the above, the biggest issue I had with keeping Nagash going was heavy rend. Only lost him to HoD but in another he took a pounding to some pretty neat artillery. With this in mind, I might try out the following: 

Nagash (vile transference, soul pike, amaranthine orb)

Neferata (soul harvest)

Necromancer (grave-sand, overwhelming dread) 

Morghast Archai

Skelly 3x10

Portals 

First Cohort 

Comes in at 1990.

The pros: Nagash is a permanent 3+, rerolling 1s on his save (thanks to Nef's spell) and even when you roll the 2s (I hate 2s) or fail a MW save, you still have the bodyguard to absorb as well as healing spells. Plonk him in the center of the board, pack him full of damage dealing spells and unleash merry hell. With 3 drops you're likely to go first and having a spare CP for Nef's ability will help her out if she gets cornered. 

The cons: If Nef falls you're in trouble. Board control is minimum and this could easily work against you with missions such as Jumping Around Orb Hooha. Think this last one is the biggest pitfall. 

The way I see it, have Nagash and the morghast doing whatever you want. Then have Nef, the skellies and the necro focusing on the mission. 

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tbh if nef dies then your just back to what you had before. 

 

Only issue is whether or not morghasts tax and battallion tax is worth it. And yes you literally won’t win objective game. So your trying for tablings basically.

nagash with nef is pretty hard to kill already.  I just wonder if first cohort is too much. Effectively first cohort gives nagash another 12-18 wounds itself so maybe you don’t need nef then and run more skellies

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4 minutes ago, CanHammer-darren said:

tbh if nef dies then your just back to what you had before. 

 

Only issue is whether or not morghasts tax and battallion tax is worth it. And yes you literally won’t win objective game. So your trying for tablings basically.

nagash with nef is pretty hard to kill already.  I just wonder if first cohort is too much. Effectively first cohort gives nagash another 12-18 wounds itself so maybe you don’t need nef then and run more skellies

Just had my lunch and was thinking exactly the same thing. Think I'll spend the afternoon pretending to work but dwelling on this...  

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