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AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion

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Posted (edited)
On 3/3/2019 at 5:12 AM, Malakithe said:

These are the things im talking about when it comes to Grims. When a basic battleline like Witches can shred through literally anything they touch. There are fundamental issues that need to be addressed somewhere.

I don't know if the Witches are indicative of any fundamental issues. The problem with Witch Elves specifically is they have access to insane buffs that can't be countered (because they are warscroll abilities, prayers and/or allegiance abilities). So without you being able to do anything about it (except killing their support characters, which is not easy for us) they can get

- immunity to Battleshock
- their 6++ damage save becomes 5++...
- ...re-rollable
- 4 attacks each
- 6s to hit become two hits
- re-rolling all failed to wound rolls
- and from turn 3 onwards, also re-rolling all failed to hit rolls

And on top of all that, the one buff you can counter (because it's a spell) gives them -1 rend and also damage 2 on their weapons if they are higher Bravery than you. Even without that though, they kill anything they touch in one round of combat as you can probably guess.

 

...and you know what else? They can also be made to fight in the Hero Phase :D

They could easily be fixed in a number of ways, for example by making Prayers counterable or harder to cast, making the Witch Brew a Command Ability (so it wasn't free to use), nerfing the Hagg-Nar allegiance abilities, etc. It's not an AoS problem IMO, it's an DoK problem specifically. 

Edited by Nevvermore
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23 hours ago, Honk said:

Maybe Arkhan Spellportal CoY... 

Luckily no Skimpy Clad Witches around here

I have been trying to field test Arkhan recently and relying on CoY to delete witches is a bad idea. Doing the math, even if you cast it, you're looking at an average of 1.6 mortal wounds per cast. 

Witches need to be nerfed. Their rerollable everything by turn 3 is super over-powered. 

One of my groups players has both a squig heavy Gitz list and DoK. When he wants to play one of these lists against my death its a loss before i even set up. It's funny though, he will not play my freeguild gun lines..... 

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1 hour ago, Nevvermore said:

I don't know if the Witches are indicative of any fundamental issues. The problem with Witch Elves specifically is they have access to insane buffs that can't be countered (because they are warscroll abilities, prayers and/or allegiance abilities). So without you being able to do anything about it (except killing their support characters, which is not easy for us) they can get

- immunity to Battleshock
- their 6++ damage save becomes 5++...
- ...re-rollable
- 4 attacks each
- 6s to hit become two hits
- re-rolling all failed to wound rolls
- and from turn 3 onwards, also re-rolling all failed to hit rolls

And on top of all that, the one buff you can counter (because it's a spell) gives them -1 rend and also damage 2 on their weapons if they are higher Bravery than you. Even without that though, they kill anything they touch in one round of combat as you can probably guess.

They could easily be fixed in a number of ways, for example by making Prayers counterable or harder to cast, making the Witch Brew a Command Ability (so it wasn't free to use), nerfing the Hagg-Nar allegiance abilities, etc. It's not an AoS problem IMO, it's an DoK problem specifically. 

I think it is an AOS problem to be honest. Every release seems to bump the meta level up a mile. Gloomspite now generate an insane amount of CP's for nothing which wipes out their major weakness which was bravery. They can now also teleport things with a wizard that can have his spells buffed. Teleporting a mangler squig with a realm artefact giving it +1 to hit will wreck anything it can charge. You can also reroll failed charges with those insane amount of CP's you get.... Comparing boingrot bounderz to something like hexwraiths is a good indicator. Look at what 5 bounderz can do for 120 pts. 

DoK are just unpleasant to play against because they re-roll everything and when you only need a 3 to hit with correct buffs its guaranteed to wreck everything. 

I think we death players need skeleton archers back so we can have a little bit of range. 

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Side note: whoever created the Morghast kit is a ******. I have never been so frustrated trying to build a model haha

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Saxon said:

It's funny though, he will not play my freeguild gun lines..... 

He sounds like a numpty.

9 hours ago, Saxon said:

I think we death players need skeleton archers back so we can have a little bit of range. 

I'd love this so, so much! 

Edited by lare2

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Meanwhile on every other faction discussion people feel like LoN is unbeatable and unfair. Once again the grass is always greener.

There are plenty of balance changes that could be made to improve the game, but they include stuff we have too. Don't just compare 2 units/abilities and complain, it doesn't work that way.

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10 hours ago, Saxon said:

relying on CoY to delete witches is a bad idea. 

That was not my intention... soulharvest portal bomb the buffing heroes!!!

one of the major issues: sun-tzu

don‘t hit the enemy where he is strongest, kick his weaknesses.

 

The witches sound like the blackknights charge to me...superbuff and off you go

how about 5 poor puppies 🐶 

hexwraith vargheists fly over

LoNight backstabbing

1CP skelli resummoning

soul shackles, palisades, whatever

Fading vigor (only 1d6 charge)

coven throne beguile 😍🥰

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41 minutes ago, Honk said:

That was not my intention... soulharvest portal bomb the buffing heroes!!!

one of the major issues: sun-tzu

don‘t hit the enemy where he is strongest, kick his weaknesses.

 

The witches sound like the blackknights charge to me...superbuff and off you go

how about 5 poor puppies 🐶 

hexwraith vargheists fly over

LoNight backstabbing

1CP skelli resummoning

soul shackles, palisades, whatever

Fading vigor (only 1d6 charge)

coven throne beguile 😍🥰

It's quite amusing seeing fear when i roll those 10 dices for CoY whether it works or not. 

I will have to give the soul-harvest a try i haven't used it yet. D3 mortal units for each unit within 3 could work against a lot of my groups armies. 

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7 hours ago, Saxon said:

D3 mortal units for each unit within 3

Don’t forget to use Arkhans command to buff ranges 😈

hope for 9+ to double cast and watch them buffing heroes fall down shriveled. Amaranthian Orb or magic missiles for finishing touches or if it must be, suicide charge the mortis engine for another d3

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Finally managed to get my death going with a mate playing on my side in another game against our local meta-lord playing Sylvaneth playing a minimum battleline list with Aerielle the Everqueen, Durthu, a branchwych, 3 kurnoth hunters with bows and 2 x 10 dryads for battleline. 

Had the following:

Heroes

Arkhan The Black (320)

Wight King With Baleful Tomb Blade (general) (120)

- Ossific Diadem Artefacts

Necromancer (110)

Necromancer (110)

Units

Morghast Archai with Spirit Halbeards (220)

Skeleton Warriors Spears x 30 (240)

Skeleton Warriors Spears x 10 (80)

Skeleton Warriors Spears x 10 (80)

Grave Guard Wight Blades (160)

Total 1440/1500

Managed to get curse of years off three times in 5 turns and in 2 of those turns doing infinite mortal wounds. Managed to take our the Spirit of Durthu and Aerielle The Everqueen with it as well as bracketing a treelord. Amazing rolling by the mate to do it. 

Moved my big block of skellies up the board bubbling around the wight king and a necro. The 12 inch bubble of Ossific Diamdem is great, it's another deathless minions save and kept the block of 30 skellies going. These boys camped the main objective and the trees couldn't touch them. 

Lost the morghasts turn 2 from the spirit of durthu but kept the objective contested. 

Was able to pass a lot of wounds off from the necromancers so the 4+ to pass off is really helpful for the necro with a terrible save. 

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3 hours ago, Saxon said:

Snip

Managed to get curse of years off three times in 5 turns and in 2 of those turns doing infinite mortal wounds.

Snip

 

Holy smokes, Arkham and two Necromancers at 1.5k!  Was owning the magic phase worth it?  On the down-side battling an elite army the debuffs had to lose some value.  On the up-side facing such an elite army must have been great for your skeletons & Grave Guard.

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3 minutes ago, Evil Bob said:

Holy smokes, Arkham and two Necromancers at 1.5k!  Was owning the magic phase worth it?  On the down-side battling an elite army the debuffs had to lose some value.  On the up-side facing such an elite army must have been great for your skeletons & Grave Guard.

Well i was up against Aerielle, Durthu and a Tree-lord so i needed something. I got Curse of Years off 3 times and Van Hels off only twice in 5 turns from 2 necros...... Getting magic off is great, particularly curse of years. But Van Hels on a block of 30 skellies is just nasty also. 

The opponent plays only meta armies so seeing his face when Durthu died and then Aerielle 2 rounds later was great. We are trying to train him to play nicer armies rather than his usual nonsense so we have fun games not hero-fests.

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Posted (edited)

Hello everyone! 

Quick question, if  my Vampire lord on zombie dragon with ancient shield and give him the Ethereal amulet artifact. 

Will he have a +3 ethereal save or a +4?

Edited by MrRoff

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34 minutes ago, MrRoff said:

Hello everyone! 

Quick question, if  my Vampire lord on zombie dragon with ancient shield and give him the Ethereal amulet artifact. 

Will he have a +3 ethereal save or a +4?

Save on more +3.

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16 hours ago, Sartxac said:

Save on more +3.

Cast Mystic Shield on him as well for a permanent 3+ save and rerolling 1s. He's an absolute beast to say the least. 

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Hail to the great Necromancer!

 

I have a small tournament with friends coming up later this year and right now I am not quite sure hwich army I want to play, as I have several semi-finished ones standing around. Right now I am painting the Supreme Lord of Undeath, so GHoN would be one option.

Perhaps some Background Information to make my Goal clear: The Tournament will be Friends only, and no super cheesy lists will be around, so I also want to take a "style over substance" apporach, while not building a low power list. This leads to the point that I do not want to play any bedsheets, not even the really good ones with the big scythes. Apart from this I am open for almost anything. ;)

So here is the list I am thinking about right now and where I would be really happy about some feedback/ideas for improvement:

 

Leaders:

Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead - General - 800pts

Necromancer - 110pts

Vampire Lord - 140pts

 

Units:

Skeleton Warriors x40 - 280pts

Grave Guard x20 - 320pts

Morghast Harbingers - 220pts

 

Endless Spells:

Umbral Spellportal - 60pts

 

Total: 1930 pts

 

I think the idea is quite Basic: Use Skellies to screen for Big N, throw spells around, buff you skellies/gg with the Necromancer and the Vampire and try to grind your enemies to dust. ;)

 

I hope for some nice tips/suggestions. 

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55 minutes ago, Craze said:

I hope for some nice tips/suggestions

That’s a nice fluffy Nagash list...

Beware of strong shooting, 2 ballistas or other filth can focus fire him down pretty easy, same goes for skimpy clad wenches.

give the necro the diadem and maybe also take shackles for 20 points just to have some area denial.

And also keep in mind, that although Nagashs profile looks tempting, he is not really meant for battle. Spirit of Durthu or a Bloodthirster will put him down...

Good luck, have fun!!!

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Which weapon option would you choose for the GG in the above list?

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10 hours ago, Craze said:

Which weapon option would you choose for the GG in the above list?

Speak softly and carry a big stick...

great swords 3+\3+ is just better than 3+\4+ and a stupid save

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Total noob here looking into starting my first army at some point this summer. Goal would be to have a solid list that i can expect to win with vs most lists, except counters and min-maxed lists. Anyway, I've done some basic research and I'd like input on the following list:

Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (440)
- Deathlance & Shield & Chalice
- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference
Necromancer (110)
- General
- Trait: Master of Death 
- Artefact: Grave-sand Timeglass 
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
20 x Zombies (120)
20 x Zombies (120)
1 x Corpse Cart (80)

Total: 990 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 85
I'm doing 2x 20 zombies because I read somewhere that they can be merged together later on, so this way I'd get to do more heals before merging for action, right? Beyond that I'm aware zombies are probably the worst of the chaff units, but again I don't need this list to be a tournament winner ya know? I feel like they'd be serviceable in big numbers with buffs from van hels and corpse cart, and it sounds like I got plenty of stuff to keep the unit topped off or summoned back(If i start with 2x 20, merge, then lose 20 models, can i then summon a 20 model unit from the grave?). Mainly want zombies for the whole necromancy theme. Besides, I don't know if its justified to roll a corpse cart with just dire wolves, and corpse cart + dire wolves sounds like a lot of staying power for their cost.

If I change my mind and want to optimize the list, or want to change it later on when I've got it all assembled, the best thing would probably be to trade the zombies and even the corpse cart for 40x skeletons with spears or 20 tomb guard, right? then also switch to ossific diadem.

Continuing this theme and building it into a 2k points list with even more zombies sounds like a meme list so im probably leaving them out if i ever push for 2k anyway

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5 minutes ago, Ardor said:

somewhere that they can be merged together later on

That’s really old school and not legal anymore... 60 zombies in fluff lists or use something else.

I really like them, in a regeneration list with 2 necros, a vamp and the corpse cart (wolves 4+ save, 3+ in cover is also very funny). My 1.5k sacrament list was vamp, 4necros, cart, 3x5 wolves, 40skellis, 0.60cal zomber +extra CP. kinda slow but crazy regeneration and can hit pretty hard too. Positioning and the objective game can be tricky. Mastery of death gave me the extra 3“ movement, shroud of darkness gave -1/-2 for shooting to my necromancer. With the legion and the cart +2 to cast, all the debuffs.... turned out pretty strong

Charging Bloodthirster still hurts

for smaller units stupid bedsheets seems to perform very well in 20s. Skellis are also best served in a maximized menu.

Dogs are imba, I love them, dirt cheap and fast

guards might also be an option, but a bit fragile. I never used them yet...

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3 hours ago, Honk said:

That’s really old school and not legal anymore... 60 zombies in fluff lists or use something else.

I really like them, in a regeneration list with 2 necros, a vamp and the corpse cart (wolves 4+ save, 3+ in cover is also very funny). My 1.5k sacrament list was vamp, 4necros, cart, 3x5 wolves, 40skellis, 0.60cal zomber +extra CP. kinda slow but crazy regeneration and can hit pretty hard too. Positioning and the objective game can be tricky. Mastery of death gave me the extra 3“ movement, shroud of darkness gave -1/-2 for shooting to my necromancer. With the legion and the cart +2 to cast, all the debuffs.... turned out pretty strong

Charging Bloodthirster still hurts

for smaller units stupid bedsheets seems to perform very well in 20s. Skellis are also best served in a maximized menu.

Dogs are imba, I love them, dirt cheap and fast

guards might also be an option, but a bit fragile. I never used them yet...

I've used small units of Grave Guard simply because my opponents will typically ignore my skellies and focus on grave guard. If they do get to attack cool, they're killy but if not, usually my opponent then has to face fully buffed skellies. 

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So when people play Nagash does he usually get stuck-in? Or is he purely there to throw mortal wounds around with his insane spellpower?

Is there a viable build/ combo of spells where you use his awesome combat stats too? Maybe people do already and I'm just not with it!

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Enemy units piling in can really do him in.

My regular opponent tends to throw every unit they can at him, because of how dominant Nagash is with magic.  Which has led to me winning a few games by keeping the objectives in mind and just sacrificing Nagash really, not what ideal but it works occasionally.

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23 hours ago, Charlo said:

where you use his awesome combat stats too?

His what?!? We are talking about Nagash, THE GREAT NECROMANCER?! 😅

You could use CAs on him from the vamp, vhordrai, dragonlord, mannfred or the coven throne.

but it’s costly CP wise and points in heros...

I would have a screen of dogs before him, the you can use his reach. He can dish out, but his magic suffers most and that’s why you field him.

Just do the quick&dirty math 

16hp -> 18,6 deathless -> 28 3+ saves -> 56 4+ wounds -> 112 4+  hits... 112 attacks from skellis/ghouls will do him in one go, he is not worth his 800 points (Arkhan as option) when you’re in 3. bracket (<10hp) that’s -7hp -> 8,2 deathless -> 12 3+ saves -> 24 4+ to wound -> 48 4+ to hit... 

just 48 attacks from grunts, like 10 reavers near a banner, 20 ghouls, etc.

yes, CA says reroll save of 1; regeneration through vile transference, soul harvest and soul steal is possible, good screening minimizes attacks, but something like durthu and a bit of bad luck and he is back on his throne in shyish contemplating revenge

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