AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion

[ZLee Syn]

51 minutes ago, Icefighter said:

So if i go with your list i end up with 930, if i add 10 skeletons i get 1010. Is it better to go with 930 because of 1 command point instead of a unit with 30 skeletons instead of 20?

Well, I take it that 1010 is not legal for 1000 point game but if you are starting I guess that is ok. 

Command point is very important for several reasons. 

1) if your oponent starts he can damage your units and you still dont have command point to ignore battleshock or rerolling saves of 1 (not as important in 1k games)

2) you want to use mannfred command ability each turn. This say you can resurect one dead unit and still be able to use mannfred command ability that turn. 

3) you need to use mannfreds command ability in hero phase. It can happen that you use it but then you roll double 1s to charge. 1 spare command point means you can reroll that charge. 

Usualy first turns are most important so that one charge or crucial resurect while still maintaining mannfreds rerolls can turn the game in your favor.

Imagine that you resurected your skeletons. Without extra cp (command point) your mannfred strikes with his sword at 2+/2+ if you casted a spell. It is a huge diference if you can reroll 1s.

If you want to add 10 skeletons,  throw out one wolfs and increse skeletons to 30.

Edited August 6, 2019 by ZLee Syn

[Betrudo]

Hi guys,

I have two questions. I bought 5 black knight's and i have problem with assembly.

I am new andI want  my army to be legal. 

First Question: My problem is that The HELL KNIGHT is with the sword on paper,  can i give him lance or it's illegal?

Second Question: And unit of 5 models, if i make Hell knight(Sword, shield), HORNBLOWER(horn and  shield), STANDARD BEARER(idk it's count as lance?), then have only 2 guys with lance and others atack with l Steed’s Hooves and Teeth? Or hornblower can be with horn and lance?

I know it could be noob tier question, but i wan't to build good army. If it's wrong place for that sorry.

 

[Grimoriano]

2 hours ago, Betrudo said:

Hi guys,

I have two questions. I bought 5 black knight's and i have problem with assembly.

I am new andI want  my army to be legal. 

First Question: My problem is that The HELL KNIGHT is with the sword on paper,  can i give him lance or it's illegal?

Second Question: And unit of 5 models, if i make Hell knight(Sword, shield), HORNBLOWER(horn and  shield), STANDARD BEARER(idk it's count as lance?), then have only 2 guys with lance and others atack with l Steed’s Hooves and Teeth? Or hornblower can be with horn and lance?

I know it could be noob tier question, but i wan't to build good army. If it's wrong place for that sorry.

 

Build them as you want, they all attack with lance.

[Betrudo]

Strange  that even musician atack with lance, but thx for reply ;)

[Honk]

On 8/6/2019 at 4:27 PM, ZLee Syn said:

Usualy first turns are most important so that one charge or crucial resurect while still maintaining mannfreds rerolls can turn the game in your favor.

I‘m kinda against this overly simplified statement...

while it is very important to have a spare CP in need (battleshock, Manni or crucial charge) it is also extremely important to PREVENT the opponents double turn.

Which can seriously mess up your resurrection protocols and board control. Not to mention charge blocks, objective grabbing and hero screens... this all get highly theoretical pretty fast, but in summary:

if your opponent gets a double turn on 2->3 or 3->4 you’re hard pressed to make a strong comeback. Enemy can choose where to engage, charge into your units fully buffed and then directly afterwards consider further moves, while you are forced to watch  your skellis crumbling in dread (maybe another CP is needed for battleshock), or your suddenly pretty vulnerable support heros getting targeted. Also the missing regeneration phase in a grind for an objective will put you at a serious disadvantage.

 

So while the pure availability of CPs is nice, the whole matter gets pretty messy in detail.

[ZLee Syn]

49 minutes ago, Honk said:

I‘m kinda against this overly simplified statement...

while it is very important to have a spare CP in need (battleshock, Manni or crucial charge) it is also extremely important to PREVENT the opponents double turn.

Which can seriously mess up your resurrection protocols and board control. Not to mention charge blocks, objective grabbing and hero screens... this all get highly theoretical pretty fast, but in summary:

if your opponent gets a double turn on 2->3 or 3->4 you’re hard pressed to make a strong comeback. Enemy can choose where to engage, charge into your units fully buffed and then directly afterwards consider further moves, while you are forced to watch  your skellis crumbling in dread (maybe another CP is needed for battleshock), or your suddenly pretty vulnerable support heros getting targeted. Also the missing regeneration phase in a grind for an objective will put you at a serious disadvantage.

 

So while the pure availability of CPs is nice, the whole matter gets pretty messy in detail.

No argunents there. This was just my reasons why I think 1 extra command point is better then 10 skeletons. Especialy in list where you have a command ability that you want to use each turn. 

Easiest way to prevent doubleturn is going second. That means going for a batalion. I feel like batalions are quite expensive in legions for their rules but the advantage of less possible doubleturns is maybe even more important in legions then in other armies.

Edited August 25, 2019 by ZLee Syn

[Grimoriano]

1 hour ago, ZLee Syn said:

No argunents there. This was just my reasons why I think 1 extra command point is better then 10 skeletons. Especialy in list where you have a command ability that you want to use each turn. 

Easiest way to prevent doubleturn is going second. That means going for a batalion. I feel like batalions are quite expensive in legions for their rules but the advantage of less possible doubleturns is maybe even more important in legions then in other armies.

That's why I start every list with an extra CP hahaha.

[Saxon]

On 8/25/2019 at 11:04 PM, Grimoriano said:

That's why I start every list with an extra CP hahaha.

I always run at least 2 10 man skelly units in a 2k point game because they're annoying. They seem to be forgotten a lot and are good for objectives, screening and board control. 

[Ahriman]

Morning guys,

 

After wondering for a few years what kind of LoN army to collect, the arrival of the Ossiarch Bonereapers has inspired me to make a Deathrattle army, comprised entirely of units without a hint of meat on their bones.

I've made a list that I think I like the look of, but have a few questions for those with much more experience than I.

 

First, the list:

Wight with Black Axe (general)

Wight King

2 x Necromancers (converted to be high fantasy skeleton wizards)

40 Skeletons (spears)

2 x 10 Skeletons (swords)

10 Black Knights

5 Black Knights

2 x 2 Morghast Archai (halberds)

20 x Grave Guard.

 

 

Questions:

1. Are there any glaring holes, or things that just won't work in the list? Narrative play is my style of play, so game dominating isn't needed, but I want to be surviving to the mid game against mid-tier armies, and be able to put the hurt on them when I need to.

2. Can the Deathmarch battalion be used in a "Legion of X" allegiance army, or just the Death grand alliance?

3. Are Black Knights as tanky as they were in 1st Edition? I recall a unit of 5 having a fair amount of sustain with their old banners, and wondering if 10 - hopefully fighting near a gravesite - will have a similar effect.

 

Thanks for any help you can give!

 

Ahriman

Edited September 8, 2019 by Ahriman

[Honk]

2 hours ago, Ahriman said:

1. Are there any glaring holes,

Since you’re not aiming for world domination, you should be fine... you could look out for a mounted wight king.

Legion of Sacrament or Grand Host of Nagash has a bunch of interesting options 

2 hours ago, Ahriman said:

2. Can the Deathmarch battalion

To my knowledge it is not explizitly stated somewhere, but Deathmarch and also Castellans have the „death alliance“ requirement. If you play undead, your units will all have the DEATH keyword, so you have the death alliance... kinda impossible to not field it.

2 hours ago, Ahriman said:

Are Black Knights as tanky as they were in 1st Edition?

I think not... the new regeneration from gravesites and models let’s you roll d3 and then „heal“. To get a 2hp model back, you’ll have to roll a 3+ and the dices have to be declared first. So your necro gets two dice, you choose one for the knights and one for the skellis, the skelli one rolls a „6“ getting three back, the knights ones a „2“ therefore not doing anything.

Also their save is not very good, Crypt shields are kinda meh.

they do perform if you get a mighty charge off, with van hels and the Wightkings CA, but then really drop in performance when attacked. If you suicide charge them into things, you can resummon them for only 1CP.

the morghast are pretty good in a grand host list (+1attack) or legions of the night (ambush and 3d6 charge)

the Grave guards can slice up things pretty bad and regenerate pretty quickly.

just try out all the possible lists and see what works for you

[Ahriman]

Thanks for the reply @Honk!

I'm still trying to work out which host I want them to be. I like bits and pieces of them all, so like you say I'll have a play. Narratively one doesn't really fit more than any other so I have some freedom.

 

As for the battalions it caught my attention as the Azyr app won't let you add it as a Legion of Night/Sacrament/Blood. I know better than to take the app as gospel though.

But i was just taking a look at the descriptions on page 88, the allegiance says "it can be included in an army that has the allegiance even". The allegiance rules have never been very clear cut in AoS so still unsure. I'll have a route through the FAQS.

 

Thanks for the Knight feedback, might drop down to 2 units of 5 then spend the points somewhere else. Either the Deathmarch battalion or something else.

 

Cheers again.

[Honk]

2 minutes ago, Ahriman said:

might drop down to 2 units of 5

Only fielded them 2-3 times without mich luck. I would suggest having 10 to make an impact, instead of 5 that are not killing stuff and can’t take a punch either.

the respective legion is kinda „pick your flavor“...

grand host will support the guards and the morghast, with extra regeneration .

Sacrament boosts your casters, has a nice speed command trait and has a resurrection feat, which might be useful.

night gives you 3+\1rr skellis/guards against no rend (shield, the bait, terrain, mystic shield) that is hilarious. 4 ambushing morghast also are a treat as are late game objective grabbers like wolves or bats in ambush.

blood does not fit into your deathrattle approach, one might try out a bravery debuff list, (overwhelming dread, morghast, blackknights and the legion is -4) if you’re interested in mortis engines, banshees or terrorgheists... very fluffy attempt, might be cool, might get stomped

[Evil Bob]

12 hours ago, Ahriman said:

Questions:

1. Are there any glaring holes, or things that just won't work in the list? Narrative play is my style of play, so game dominating isn't needed, but I want to be surviving to the mid game against mid-tier armies, and be able to put the hurt on them when I need to.

With Grandhost that Grave Guard unit is battle line.  Ditch one of the skeletal ten mans units and take the GG unit to thirty without spending a single point.  Larger mobs of bones is very narrative.  The days of small Wight blocks is from over twenty years ago.

 

Personally I have never enjoyed Morghasts outside the Grand Host.  Whereas with spirit halberds inside the legion they are pretty amazing.  The choice of two units of two or one unit of four is important.  Combat sequencing and casualties can get pretty important for these guys.  It depends if they are focusing more as skirmishers or a “hammer.”

The Black Knights can work as a more expensive version of Direwolve Skirmisher/objective-camper and maintain your theme.  Someone once mentioned a small unit makes a great mobile bravery debuff with their banner.  If they hit the same unit as the Morghasts (and survive) that’s a -2 Bravery.

[Saxon]

20 hours ago, Ahriman said:

3. Are Black Knights as tanky as they were in 1st Edition? I recall a unit of 5 having a fair amount of sustain with their old banners, and wondering if 10 - hopefully fighting near a gravesite - will have a similar effect.

Black knights hit like a wet fish. +1 to wound on the charge is meh. They're good for tying up objectives but crypt shields are pointless as nearly everything has rend these days. 

I have 10 of them painted but just cant fit them into my army. 

[Sception]

Black Knights are relatively fast and have a decent amount of wounds.  Offensively they have tons of attacks, but with underwhelming 'to hit' & 'to wound' values and no rend at all.  They can be somewhat threatening on the charge to hordey chaff units with poor armor saves based on quantity of attacks & damage alone, especially if you throw a vanhels on them, but a respectable armor save will stone wall them.  That said, they're reasonably quick, especially in the deathmarch formation, and especially especially in a sacrament army with the extra movement command ability, and if you land a couple debuffs on the enemy units then the opponent can have as hard a time clearing them as you do clearing the enemy, especially with recursion.

Though their recursion is a lot less reliable under the current rules than single wound infantry units.  if there's an injured model in the unit, then an invocation can only heal that one wound, any leftover from the d3 roll is lost.  If there isn't an injured model, then if you roll a 3 then a single two wound model comes back and the third point is wasted, while if you roll a one that's the worst possible outcome as the entire invocation is wasted without restoring anything at all.  If you roll well black knight recursion is fine, but if you roll poorly then it's much worse than skeleton or grave guard or chainrasp or grimghast recursion.  That said endless legions works just fine on them.

They aren't an awful unit if you build around them, but they're not especially good out of the box.  They're certainly better than they were back when they only had a single lance attack per model.  At this point the main thing they're lacking as mounted wights is that point of rend.  With that they'd be a decent if uninspired cavalry unit.  Without it they're less like mounted wights and more like mounted skeleton warriors, which could be fine I guess, but if that's what they're supposed to be then they should probably cost a bit less and fill battleline requirements.  That said, they *look* like mounted wights, so that's really what they should be on the table.

[ColsBols]

So I have an absurd idea for a list I want to try and I'd like some feedback. Do you think this could work at all or am I an idiot? The idea is to keep Dark Mist on Nagash and have him be an attacking powerhouse with immunity to rend, rerolling saves of one, with -1 to hit.

GRAND HOST OF NAGASH

Extra Command Point

Leaders:

Nagash 850

Neferata 380

Cairn Wraith (Aetherquartz Brooch)

UNITS

Chainrasp 40x 280

Dire Wolves 70

Dire Wolves 70

Dreadscythe Harridans 15x 240

TOTAL 2000/2000

 

[Honk]

7 hours ago, ColsBols said:

Do you think this could work at all

For a casual game you should just try it...

1. I don’t think you’ll have enough CPs for Nagash and Neffis CA.

2. On top Nagash might fling around a bunch of spells, but otherwise will not put out a lot of damage.

3. Neffi will be quite exposed right behind Nagash and pretty open to attack.

4. 1200 points in two models, objective control might get tricky.

but that are just my couchpotato thoughts, never fielded neffi before.

[Evil Bob]

On 9/24/2019 at 1:33 AM, Honk said:

For a casual game you should just try it...

ColsBols gets kudos from me for putting out a list I’ve never scene nor expect to see anything like it.  Witnessing it on the table alone would feel like some rare planetary alignment.  Haven’t felt something like that since a 40k league game were a buddy for lulz threw out a list mostly filled with named eldar characters.

[Kimbo]

With the updated points, what do you (more experienced) players think about Nagash lists for competitive play? what have you played that you liked?

Always loved the model and i'm looking to make a death army  the next chapter in my book. 

 

 

[Sception]

I'm no expert on competitive play, but significant point hikes have hit nearly every element of what was the typical Nagash list (nagash, necromancers, dire wolves, grimghasts, mirrors), seemingly for no other reason than that they were part of that list (mirrors were never used in any other list after their initial nerf, yet still got hit with the Nagash Tax).  As such, that particular list seems to be in a pretty untenable place right now, and I haven't heard of any alternative Nagash list rising to take its place, especially with some of the newer factions having greater ability to handle the big guy regardless.

If your format uses the full realm rules & spells Nagash can still be intimidating in and of himself.  950 is too much, but a list could make up the difference if you had some underpriced staples to buy you some slack.  Problem is, from where I'm sitting Grand Host simply doesn't have any underpriced staples.  There are units arguably worth their points, but nothing with the kind of extra efficiency that would let you field the big guy at 2k points with enough supporting strength to still be functional across a variety of missions.

..

Hopeful future possibilities:  Nagash seems to be part of the new bonereaper faction, & if that's true, or if some of the bonereaper units get added to legion lists the way some of the nighthaunt stuff did, then you might see a new Nagash list emerge out of that.

The main thing to look for is a staple block unit.  Something similar to the pre-price-hike grimghasts in that it is 1. versatile (not much room for units after nearly 1000 points of nagash, so what units you do field need to be all purpose) and 2. underpriced (Nagash is impressive but unarguably inefficient at current points - your main block unit is going to be the biggest remaining chunk of points & as such needs to be where you make up that difference).

...

Long Shot Possibilities:

Nagash, Arkhan, and Morghasts look to appear in the new book.  From what I could see of arkhan he looked identical to his current warscroll, though that's hard to say for sure as the leaks weren't in English and, dumb american that I am, I don't speak anything else.

But still, based on what little I could tell from Arkhan, it looks like any Legions units that make their way into the bonereapers book will simply be copy & pasted.  However, while it's unlikely, it is still technically possible that the warscroll and/or points values of Nagash or Morghasts might change dramatically, and such changes might retroactively apply to the same units in grand host lists.  If so, that could certainly make a new Nagash list possible even without a new version of the old Grimghasts, maybe even a workable First Cohort.  That would be cool.

...

On a more sobering note: While there are a number of ways that the bonereaper list *could* bring Nagash back to the competitive scene, I wouldn't hold my breath for any of them.  After all, we are still only a couple months removed from a points revision where the devs pretty clearly signaled that they wanted Nagash off of tournament tables altogether, and I doubt they'll have turned around on that opinion so quickly.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Sception

[El Syf]

I second what @Sception said. Unless Nagash gets an updated warscroll (which doesn't Nerf him) I'm not sure he's of much use in competitive play.

It really irked me when GW asked what people would like to see in GHB 2019 and so many people said Nagash to go up in points. Yes umbral spell portal and hand of dust can wipe out your prized model, but that tactic was very situational.  Did it really justify both going up in points?!

Anyway before I go full blown sour grapes he is a list I use casually, that almost certainly will not win any tournaments but can be good fun...

 Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash

Leaders
Nagash Supreme Lord of the Undead (850)
- General
- Lores of the Dead Spell 1: Vile Transference (Vampires)
- Lores of the Dead Spell 2: Overwhelming Dread (Deathmages)
- Lores of the Dead Spell 3: Fading Vigour (Deathmages)
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (440)
- Deathlance & Shield & Chalice
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb

Battleline
5 x Dire Wolves (70)
20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)
2 x Morghast Archai (200)
- Spirit Halberds
20 x Skeleton Warriors (160)
- Ancient Blades

Endless Spells / Terrain
Umbral Spellportal (70)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 92

[SevenXes]

Hey there,

 

I'm new to AoS (only played one match so far) and while I think that the Maggotkin got the better models, it's Nagash I feel more comfortable playing with. Simply because I feel like it's easier for me to build a list.  That beeing said, there are a few questions I have regarding my list/LoN:

 

1. Are the Bat Swarms worth taking? I feel like they're kinda like the Nurglings, which can be pretty good/annoying. At least that's what I got from watching Nurgle play.

2. I'm going to play in a beginners tournament in a couple of weeks. And right now it's probably going to be 1000 pts. So here is this list I came up with:

Leaders
Vampire Lord (140)
- General
- Mount: Nightmare
Necromancer (130)

Battleline
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spears
5 x Dire Wolves (70)
5 x Dire Wolves (70)

Units
2 x Morghast Harbingers (200)
- Spirit Halberds
1 x Corpse Cart (80)

Total: 970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 88 

 

I'm not sure if the Corpse Cart is worth taking. I thought about switching it for the Bats just to keep my Skellies alive a little longer just in case I'm dealing with lots of shooting.

In case the tournament ist going to 1250 pts I thought about adding Black Knights.

So what do you think about this list?

 

3. Are there any cool (alternative) models out there I could use? Because, unfortunately most of the models in the LoN are pretty dated.  At least the Vampires and the Knights on Horses. 

 

 

[Grimoriano]

6 hours ago, SevenXes said:

Hey there,

 

I'm new to AoS (only played one match so far) and while I think that the Maggotkin got the better models, it's Nagash I feel more comfortable playing with. Simply because I feel like it's easier for me to build a list.  That beeing said, there are a few questions I have regarding my list/LoN:

 

1. Are the Bat Swarms worth taking? I feel like they're kinda like the Nurglings, which can be pretty good/annoying. At least that's what I got from watching Nurgle play.

2. I'm going to play in a beginners tournament in a couple of weeks. And right now it's probably going to be 1000 pts. So here is this list I came up with:

Leaders
Vampire Lord (140)
- General
- Mount: Nightmare
Necromancer (130)

Battleline
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spears
5 x Dire Wolves (70)
5 x Dire Wolves (70)

Units
2 x Morghast Harbingers (200)
- Spirit Halberds
1 x Corpse Cart (80)

Total: 970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 88 

 

I'm not sure if the Corpse Cart is worth taking. I thought about switching it for the Bats just to keep my Skellies alive a little longer just in case I'm dealing with lots of shooting.

In case the tournament ist going to 1250 pts I thought about adding Black Knights.

So what do you think about this list?

 

3. Are there any cool (alternative) models out there I could use? Because, unfortunately most of the models in the LoN are pretty dated.  At least the Vampires and the Knights on Horses. 

 

 

Change the morghasts, corpse cart and vampire lord for a Vampire lord on zombie dragon with ethereal amulet. XD

[Grimoriano]

Just a question, can I equip to my vampire a ring of inmortality in the Grand host of nagash? Or it is exclusive for a grand alliance army? Ty

[Sception]

nope.  If you play Grand Host of Nagash you don't get access to grand alliance artifacts and command traits, just those of the grand host itself.  If you're playing with the realm of battle rules from malign sorcery, you also have access to the artifacts of whatever realm you choose for your army to be based in.  If you're looking for additional durability, the realm of death's ethereal amulet is pretty good on a vampire lord on zombie dragon.  For a regular vampire lord the grand host's deathforged chain and balefire lantern are ok, but mostly you want to use your relatively smaller size and flying or mounted movement to skirt line of sight blocking terrain while presenting larger centerpiece threats to distract enemy attention from your infantry heroes, because even with defensive artifacts they're not terribly survivable.