AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion

[lare2]

7 hours ago, Tiberius501 said:

Now I basically just have to think on whether I want to go better or cooler looking. 🤔

Cooler - always cooler! Spears would still be awesome as well mate.

[Honk]

8 hours ago, Tiberius501 said:

Now I basically just have to think

... will my opponents be ok with proxy?!

 

mine are totally fine with a clear and definite statement up front. Or make a frontline with swords in the units which are using swords...

[Tiberius501]

Yeah I’ll go with cooler

allying them to an Anvils of the Heldenhammer army and Cities of Sigmar force as undead bros living with them.

[WinnerDave]

Hello all, despite the OBR love at the moment I recently went with GHoN.  3 games played so far.  Loving the arcane bolt spam that Nagash and Arkhan can throw out there. 

Anyway I have a question about the Endless Legions command ability.  Let's imagine I lost my big blob of 40 skeletons, I want to bring them back using Endless Legions, so I've got to squeeze all 40 into a 9" bubble (okay that's a big bubble).  However, if I can't fit all 40 in because my opponent has been clever enough to get near my gravesites, can I bring on less than 40 or is it an "all or nothing" ability?

Thanks for your help

[Platypus]

From the Core Rules, page 1: "Sometimes there will not be enough room to set up all of the models from a unit. When this is the case, any models that cannot be set up are considered to have been slain."

So you set up as many as you can fit.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Platypus

[WinnerDave]

2 minutes ago, Platypus said:

From the Core Rules, page 1: "Sometimes there will not be enough room to set up all of the models from a unit. When this is the case, any models that cannot be set up are considered to have been slain."

So you set up as many as you can fit.

Interesting, thanks mate.

I do find it odd that it's spelled out in "The Unquiet Dead" but not so for "Endless Legions"

Good to know I can fall back on the core rules when/if it comes up.

[Dongilles]

With the changes to Nagash, I am reading alot about an Arcane Bolt spam but I cant find the rule that he can cast Arcane Bolt multible times.

Can someone please explain the spam to me? 

[Evil Bob]

37 minutes ago, Dongilles said:

With the changes to Nagash, I am reading alot about an Arcane Bolt spam but I cant find the rule that he can cast Arcane Bolt multible times.

Can someone please explain the spam to me? 

It’s part of the text included with his staff.  In the same manner they justified Arkham saying his staff can repeat the basic spells as well.

Must be some kind of Death phallic thing.

[Honk]

1 hour ago, Evil Bob said:

Must be some kind of Death phallic thing.

Must be the „biggest mightiest ******“ thing... 

after the point increase for Nagash, pretty quickly from 800 to 880, that might be pretty interesting.
But I liked the old 800 point „I know all your spells“ version more. 800 made him kinda easy to fit into lists, he had enough spells to cast 4-7 with endless or just to push your necro into unemployment. Arkhan never had that plight.

but, what I like even more about the new scrolls is the new invocation wording giving him the option to heal themselves. Arkhan and Nagash could Tag-Team heal 6 wounds per round to each other...that will teach your opponent,

should try out the first cohort bodyguard battalion again

[WinnerDave]

28 minutes ago, Honk said:

but, what I like even more about the new scrolls is the new invocation wording giving him the option to heal themselves. Arkhan and Nagash could Tag-Team heal 6 wounds per round to each other...that will teach your opponent,

"At the start of your hero phase, if this model is on the battlefield you can pick up to 5 different friendly Summonable units or friendly Ossiarch Bonereapers units in any combination. For each of those units, you can either heal up to 3 wounds that have been allocated to that unit or, if no wounds have been allocated to it, you can return a number of slain models to that unit with a combined Wounds characteristic of 3 or less."

I don't think they can heal each other unless you're running OBR.

[WinnerDave]

2 hours ago, Dongilles said:

With the changes to Nagash, I am reading alot about an Arcane Bolt spam but I cant find the rule that he can cast Arcane Bolt multible times.

Can someone please explain the spam to me? 

From the Warscroll

"Alakanash, the Staff of Power: This staff is capped with gems of purest Shyishan realmstone. Add the Staff of Power value shown on this model’s damage table to casting, dispelling and unbinding rolls for this model. In addition, this model can attempt to cast Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield any number of times in the same hero phase, even if another Wizard has already attempted to cast the spell in that phase."

Best thing for me as a noobie to GHoN, it made the hero phase super quick.  Before that the hero phase took ages as I tried to figure out which combo of spells to attempt.  8 Arcane bolts into a unit of eels, salty tears were shed

[Evil Bob]

2 minutes ago, WinnerDave said:

snip

Best thing for me as a noobie to GHoN, it made the hero phase super quick.  Before that the hero phase took ages as I tried to figure out which combo of spells to attempt.  8 Arcane bolts into a unit of eels, salty tears were shed

I think you meant, “tears of joy.”  That line left me feeling so much joy I can feel Beethoven playing through my very soul.

[Honk]

11 minutes ago, WinnerDave said:

you can pick up to 5 different friendly Summonable

Read before you throw BS out there...

*shame *shame *shame

and a bit of sadness, that’s kinda ruining Nagash for LoN, just too expensive there.

but it still sounds pretty crazy for obr   

[WinnerDave]

1 hour ago, Honk said:

Read before you throw BS out there...

*shame *shame *shame

and a bit of sadness, that’s kinda ruining Nagash for LoN, just too expensive there.

but it still sounds pretty crazy for obr   

I suspect there's already and FAQ in the works to sort that out, as it'd be weird if they can heal each other in OBR but unable to in GHoN.  That said, my limited experience so far, is that if my opponent can get something into combat with Nagash/Arkhan they get squished.  Nagash took a "Bloodthirster" to the face in my first game and Arkhan got wiped off the board by an "Aspect of the Storm" in my most recent game.  I've got to get better at screening to prevent that from happening in future games.

[Honk]

1 hour ago, WinnerDave said:

I've got to get better at screening

True, but even if a long charge gets around your screen or ballistas/hunters/cannons taking potshots... they both start being much more resilient against getting hurt and bracketing

[El Syf]

Does anyone else think the Nagash and Morghasts warscroll changes make them more appealing now?

[phlp]

the morghast warscroll did also change? 

[Platypus]

They got the the Ossiarch Bonereapers keyword, and Nagash’s and Arkhan’s healing ability went from healing only summonable units to healing Ossiarch Bonereapers units as well.

[Sception]

Morghats only changed in that they added the 'Ossiarch Bonereaper' and 'Hekatos' keywords.  The latter means they don't need a nearby hero for death saves in a Bonereaper army, which is nice for harbingers in particular who prefer to reach out with their flying move and extended charge range.  Still, it's relatively minor and doesn't help them much.

...

Nagash and Arkhan changed in a number of ways that make them better in OBR armies than they would have been without those changes.  If those changes are made retroactive to legions it'll be a mixed bag there.  In particular, losing access to other death wizards' spells will be a pretty painful blow in legions armies if their access to the faction spell lists aren't expanded as they are when fielded in OBR armies.  Still waiting on how FAQ pans out, though.  For the moment, LoN armies still use their LoN warscrolls, so no actual changes there yet.

As for whether 'better' means 'good'?  Arkhan is a very good caster, with great mobility and even a decent melee punch as long as you're careful with him, but he's quite fragile for his points cost, which in theory is a fair tradeoff but between cities of sigmar and the bonereaper crawlers you might start to see a lot more shooting from your opponents, which would be pretty bad for him.  Theoretically you can deploy him next to some immortis to tank a few wounds for him, but they're also pretty expensive so now you're looking at enough points that you could have just fielded Katakros instead, who's a fair bit tougher and arguably does even more for your army without having to worry about failed casting rolls or lucky unbinds from the opponent.  So personally I'd rate Arkhan as fine, decent, perfectly playable, but maybe not great in a take all comers, competitive tournament scene kind of sense. 

Nagash is a special case in that he doesn't so much support your army as he is your army, and your other models are there support him.  He's so expensive that your army is bound to have problems with both fielding enough bodies to cap objectives and generating enough discipline points for the non-nagash units to perform at the level that they do in more typical OBR lists.  As such, after Nagash has already taking about half your points in a normal 2k point game, most of the rest of your points will probably want to go into battleline and support characters rather than specialist units like crawlers and harvesters and stalkers and the like.  Once he gets going, Nagash should be nigh unkillable in the list, assuming you're running petrifex and keep his CA and Protection of Nagash up, but his offense, while impressive for one model, isn't really all that impressive for 800+ points, and he's only a single model for objectives, so you can run into games that feel hopelessly one sided in your favor as your opponent struggles to even scratch this towering monstrosity in the middle of the board, and then you get to the end and tally victory points and realize that it was you who never had a chance of victory.

Which is not to say a Nagash list isn't viable or can't win games, it is and it can, but those games tend to be rather lopsided one way or the other, and can be frustrating for casual opponents who are more about having fun trading blows rather than playing to scenario objectives, so he isn't necessarily ideal for regular use in casual beer & pretzels games.  On the other hand, in a tournament setting there are going to be more players who know how to effectively play around him.  Nagash OBR isn't *all that* different from Nagash LoN, which was a common list that everyone had to be familiar with and have a plan for only a few short months ago, so while Nagash is valid and viable and you shouldn't be surprised if he wins a few events he's probably not the best option there either.

 

I want to stress that neither Arkhan nor Nagash is bad exactly.  They're quite playable, they do enough to justify their points even with the price hikes in OBR.  They're just maybe not the tippity top end of tournament viability, and Nagash in particular sucks up a lot of the air on any table you deploy him on, which maybe isn't ideally appropriate for casual pick up games.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Sception

[CentralKarma]

Sorry if this has already been asked/ discussed, but are morghast still battleline with Nagash as general?  I haven't seen any changes that would say they aren't but they are no longer shown as a batteline option in the app or on the warscroll builder on warhammer community.  Was there an FAQ that i missed making them no longer battle line or is this just a glitch?

[Sleboda]

11 hours ago, El Syf said:

Does anyone else think the Nagash and Morghasts warscroll changes make them more appealing now?

Not morghasts. They look so darn cool, but really, really fail hard for the points.

[Sleboda]

8 hours ago, Sception said:

For the moment, LoN armies still use their LoN warscrolls, so no actual changes there yet.

I haven't compared yet, but has the name of Nagash's warscroll changed with the Bonereapers? If not, it's the most current version of his scroll and must be used (baring opponent permission, of course).

[Death1942]

So it seems like Nagash outside of bone reapers can't heal himself (nice cash grab GW).  Does that tip him into the too expensive category for you?  I like the spam arcane bolts and he isn't too bad offensively if you keep using the command ability.

[Grimoriano]

1 hour ago, Death1942 said:

So it seems like Nagash outside of bone reapers can't heal himself (nice cash grab GW).  Does that tip him into the too expensive category for you?  I like the spam arcane bolts and he isn't too bad offensively if you keep using the command ability.

For me, legion of Nagash have to change the name to "legions of....mmm...hello?"

Edited November 18, 2019 by Grimoriano

[Thostos]

1 hour ago, Death1942 said:

So it seems like Nagash outside of bone reapers can't heal himself (nice cash grab GW).  Does that tip him into the too expensive category for you?  I like the spam arcane bolts and he isn't too bad offensively if you keep using the command ability.

 I always look at his command ability alone being on par with  a battalion ability that would cost around 300 pts.So really,,with his high spell count and his new ability to spam AB..I think hes actually more effective now than ever.I say this after playing him in tournaments and events for about 9 mos a couple years back in 1st ed.I had a solid win rate,,though my list had issues with actually scoring a good amount of kill points in events,the new Mortal wound spam goes along ways to solving that issue,,especially as I think back to all the hero phases I had were I simply couldn't  use all of his spell casts he had available.