TheadTheOgorSlayer Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 2 minutes ago, Mutter said: Most people claim 1000 points is not balanced period. Anything that summons (or re-summons) gets vastly more powerful at that level. Anything that has big beasties is also a lot more powerful than in 2000 points. I only really play that level! And that does make sense... FEC is terrifying at 1000 points 😵 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutter Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 Just now, TheadTheOgorSlayer said: FEC is terrifying at 1000 points Yes, makes sense, because it has re-summons AND powerful big beasties. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Bob Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 On 2/25/2019 at 2:19 AM, Honk said: Same for Castellans in an Soulblight army... good thing somebody finally read that book 😓🤪 It’s a detail in the fine print. On top of the endless FAQs of the main rules we have to be rules-experts to deal with potential rules-lawyers. I’ll give GeeDub credit for having the correct rule inside the book at an appropriate place. Death LON players have to be ubber hard-core. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedraxis Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 I feel Grimghast Reapers really take LoN too far. Without them the book looks really well balanced. They would still do great without being summonable, competing with other elite options like Vargheists and Morghasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Bob Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) I only bought the Soul Wars box because GW decided to add its contents to the LON book. It is too late to backtrack. Other armies are getting solid battle-line options and the LON book doesn’t have a single one from the first printing. Throwing them Chainrasps was a very kind gesture from the Devs. Assuming Grimghast Reapers are breaking Battletomb:LoN then I would suggest a full pass/check done on the “elite” options of the book. Grave Guard and Black Knights aren’t functioning properly. Any efforts to make them work personally feels excessive. I always end up dropping them for more reliable and functional options. Fix them first and I wouldn’t mind GRs being dropped. Aside Morghasts are pretty expensive for their data sheet. Other armies get their comparable big-muscle with better pricing for the relative features. Morghasts also require list building and tactical finesse to function against decent opponents. I’m very interested to hear about Vargiests. They do not seem popular and not something winning tournaments. Six are in my collection but they do not see game play because my forces are either GHoN with Morghasts/Halberds or LoS that uses neither. The Douchebags’ Battalion option has no bacon. Any experiences or insights would greatly be appreciated. Edited March 1, 2019 by Evil Bob Spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soots Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 4 hours ago, Sedraxis said: I feel Grimghast Reapers really take LoN too far. Without them the book looks really well balanced. They would still do great without being summonable, competing with other elite options like Vargheists and Morghasts. I feel like several options in skaven has really taken the heat off Grimghasts. If they change grimghasts theyll have to visit a lot of skaven units as well imo. These 2 new tomes really changed what is "normalized". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 9 minutes ago, soots said: I feel like several options in skaven has really taken the heat off Grimghasts. If they change grimghasts theyll have to visit a lot of skaven units as well imo. These 2 new tomes really changed what is "normalized". Skaven dont really have anything that can laterally compare except for maybe Stormvermin as far as elite goes. And they are 500pts for a full unit. The real issue is LoN dont have any real hammer units that can compare. Grave Guard are too expensive for what they do when you put them side by side. Morghasts need a points reduction as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedraxis Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 But that is the point of the game I believe. LoN shouldn't have a cheap functioning elite unit. There shouldn't be a solid answer to the question: "what is our hammer best unit". Grave Guard and Black Knights and Morghasts and Vargeists all perform fine, Grimghast are just better. If every unit of that powerlevel (Evocators, Eels, DoK infantry/witch etc.) would be normalized, no one would need a unit like that. Everywhere I look people say "no but we need this OP unit because other tomes have X". The grass is always greener and such. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 On 2/27/2019 at 1:50 AM, Sedraxis said: But that is the point of the game I believe. LoN shouldn't have a cheap functioning elite unit. There shouldn't be a solid answer to the question: "what is our hammer best unit". Grave Guard and Black Knights and Morghasts and Vargeists all perform fine, Grimghast are just better. If every unit of that powerlevel (Evocators, Eels, DoK infantry/witch etc.) would be normalized, no one would need a unit like that. Everywhere I look people say "no but we need this OP unit because other tomes have X". The grass is always greener and such. Except people have been saying those units are bad LONG before the new units came out to compare them to. Before the new stuff, LoN lists at the top level were pretty much nothing but Skeleton Warriors, Dire Wolves, Vampire Lords on Zombie Dragons, Necromancers, Arkhan, and Nagash with the old broken First Cohort. Almost everything else in the book has needed a buff/points adjustment/total warscroll rewrite (I would throw Nagash himself into that last one for other reasons though) for awhile now. Also keep in mind that Nighthaunt have Grimghasts as a battleline unit and are a decidedly mid-tier army on the best of days. Any nerf to their warscroll is going to effect them as well. They could give Legions different warscrolls for the NH units like they have with the Black Coach and Terrorghiest/ZD when compared to NH and FEC. Probably a much better solution than trying to make a single unit function well and fairly under two very different rules sets. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lare2 Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Think it's fairly obvious something will come along to nerf LoN. My concern, I just hope whatever they do doesn't damage NH too much (ridiculous points increase for Grimghast) or, more importantly for me, ruin the LoN battletome which (excluding the pervasive inclusion of Grimghasts) is a fairly decent and rounded book. No idea what form it'll take but I'm all for just making NH allies for LoN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 23 minutes ago, lare2 said: Think it's fairly obvious something will come along to nerf LoN. I hope not, I‘m too bad to get nerfed... I don’t play with grimghast, maybe they should just adjust them. Throw them out of LoN or give them dedicated points in LoN. DONE on the other side, DoK and ID have pretty sick options, same goes for my Flesh Eaters (after Bill won LVO, they get even more cheese...) and skaven aren’t quite nice anymore. The real problem is GW balancing to sell models 🥳👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lare2 Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 49 minutes ago, Honk said: I hope not, I‘m too bad to get nerfed... I don’t play with grimghast, maybe they should just adjust them. Throw them out of LoN or give them dedicated points in LoN. DONE Me neither and I wouldn't bat an eye if they did disappear from LoN. On another note, I just picked up 40 more skellies. I'm so tempted to go swords this time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 10 minutes ago, lare2 said: I'm so tempted to go swords this time... Hitting on 3s sounds pretty good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Bob Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 13 hours ago, lare2 said: On another note, I just picked up 40 more skellies. I'm so tempted to go swords this time... On small sized units people should use swords. Especially on unsupported spreed-bumps. Spears are for dice synergies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 The changes im thinking could happen is they swap around what units are 'allies'. Also LoN need some heavy points reductions across a few units in order for LoN players to be tempted to use LoN units and not take NH stuff. Increasing the points for Grims wont solve anything except to further ****** over NH players Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 4 hours ago, Malakithe said: Also LoN need some heavy points reductions Sorry, but totally disagree... while it is true, that skelli spam or wolfpacks are most efficient, while Bloodknights and morghast are tricky to use in a min/max environment. There will always be the hottest 5h!t, the broken combo for the hardcore players. The real problem imo are „integrated“ units from NH who are not balanced against LoN mechanics and then break the fun... put them on ally list, redo the „summonable“ keywords like they did for FEC and suddenly they are not stronger in the wrong army anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Honk said: Sorry, but totally disagree... while it is true, that skelli spam or wolfpacks are most efficient, while Bloodknights and morghast are tricky to use in a min/max environment. There will always be the hottest 5h!t, the broken combo for the hardcore players. The real problem imo are „integrated“ units from NH who are not balanced against LoN mechanics and then break the fun... put them on ally list, redo the „summonable“ keywords like they did for FEC and suddenly they are not stronger in the wrong army anymore. But the main reason people take the NH units is cuz LoN doesnt have any units that even compare. Grave Guard and Morghast and Blood Knights absolutely need points reductions to ever be relevant or comparable to simply spamming Grims. The summonable keyword wont get reworked as its almost ingrained into almost every warscroll and allegiance mechanics for LoN and NH 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, Malakithe said: need points reductions to ever be relevant Totally true, heavy elite like gore-gruntas, bloodcrushers, eels or fulminators are either way cheaper or way more powerful. I fear that GW has an extra elite-tax on our units, because they try to railroad us into a skelli horde... that is kinda fine for me, as a casual player who likes to win, but also appreciates the fluff. the tricky almost impossible part to balance is the high competitiveness parallel to a fluff narrative game. and they are not doing it to build a fun game, but to sell models and make money... or how do you explain that royal terrorgheists ignore behemoth rules in a gristlegore army?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 13 minutes ago, Honk said: Totally true, heavy elite like gore-gruntas, bloodcrushers, eels or fulminators are either way cheaper or way more powerful. I fear that GW has an extra elite-tax on our units, because they try to railroad us into a skelli horde... that is kinda fine for me, as a casual player who likes to win, but also appreciates the fluff. the tricky almost impossible part to balance is the high competitiveness parallel to a fluff narrative game. and they are not doing it to build a fun game, but to sell models and make money... or how do you explain that royal terrorgheists ignore behemoth rules in a gristlegore army?!? Yeah 6 monsters in a list might get out of control lol Fluff wise though ghosts and skellis are all the same. Enslaved to the will of Nagash and his lieutenants. Vamps and Necros raise and control minions to do what they want. Whether those minions are paper thin bed sheets with rusted weapons are walking bones doesnt matter. I like that LoN can include NH stuff but at the same time the NH on paper is so much better and more reliable in a LoN list then actual LoN stuff. I feel not many understand that certain units have certain roles. I love having Morghast in a GHoN list for cracking armor but they are so awkward to include in lists. Its so much easier to spam 2 or 3 units of 30ish Grims to do literally ever role. I would rather include Grave Guard but why would I? They are literally a worse version of Grims or Blades 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, Malakithe said: I love having... Totally true !!! I field 60 zombies just to stir it up sometimes. But when push comes to shove, you‘re looking at the same broken list again... I do admire ianob for his blackknights list, but I‘m lacking the skill to go for solid positioning and tactics and then it’s 40 skellis and puppies again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevvermore Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) Question: How do we beat Daughters of Khaine without Nagash? Even a VLoZD with Ethereal Amulet rerolling save rolls of 1 can't survive fighting Witch Elves. We've got basically nothing that can snipe the Hags or kill the Cauldrons at range. Fighting the Witch Elves themselves is futile until their support is gone since they will nuke anything they touch. What options do we have here? Edited March 2, 2019 by Nevvermore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 28 minutes ago, Nevvermore said: What options do we have here? Maybe Arkhan Spellportal CoY... Luckily no Skimpy Clad Witches around here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 These are the things im talking about when it comes to Grims. When a basic battleline like Witches can shred through literally anything they touch. There are fundamental issues that need to be addressed somewhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 6 hours ago, Malakithe said: There are fundamental issues that need to be addressed somewhere. And then we stumble over the question how competitive game is supposed to function... 🥳 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Bob Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 On 3/2/2019 at 5:04 AM, Malakithe said: Snip I feel not many understand that certain units have certain roles. I love having Morghast in a GHoN list for cracking armor but they are so awkward to include in lists. Its so much easier to spam 2 or 3 units of 30ish Grims to do literally ever role. I would rather include Grave Guard but why would I? They are literally a worse version of Grims or Blades In your example there’s nothing wrong with having a preference of one over the other. Morghast Harbongers with spirit halberds have a much larger threat range (assault flexablitly) and hard alpha option. Grimghast Reapers hold way more tank, sustained combat, and volume of dice. This is a splended example where the option falls on the player preference rather than absolutes like Grims over Grave Guard. I feel the sorrow when looking at other Legions or Undead lists where Morghasts are junk. Leagion of Night being a possible exception. I only own four Morghasts so testing them with ambush hasn’t happened yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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