AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Kharneth]

52 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:

If you are in combat with a shooting unit, they must target a unit that they are in combat with.  It doesn't necessarily mean the *closest* unit, but for example if my unit of blood warriors is 5" away, and there is a unit of reavers 2" away, then they have to shoot the reavers.

Yeah, once they get into combat but they'll have a couple turns of shooting first. How does screening with chaff protect from shooting when you're running across the board? I had my enemy reposition for 2 turns in his deployment zone while he shot me to pieces, bloodreavers are only an inch faster. 

320 - Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster

80 - Bloodstoker

320 - 30 Bloodletters - FC, Gore-drenched Icon

70 - 10 Bloodreavers - Reaverblades, FC

140 - 3 Skullcrushers - Ensorcelled Axes, FC

50 - Command Point

- 980

What command trait and artefact should I take? I was thinking Unrivaled Battlelust and Crimson Crown. 

Also, I did some math crunching and I think the skullcrushers are better with ensorcelled weapons unless they're benefitting from KF. 

Or?:

320 - Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster

80 - Bloodstoker

140 - Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut - Violent Urgency, Talisman of Burning Blood

140 - 3 Skullcrushers - Ensorcelled Axes, FC

140 - 3 Skullcrushers - Ensorcelled Axes, FC

140 - 3 Skullcrushers - Ensorcelled Axes, FC

Edited November 19, 2018 by Kharneth

[Zamik]

1 hour ago, Kharneth said:

Zamik,

I had a slaughterpriest, aspiring deathbringer, bloodstoker, 2x10 blood warriors, and 2x5 skullreapers. All but 3 of my blood warriors died from the first volley and the slaughterpriest wasn't going to be within range until my 3rd hero phase, which would've been far too late to disrupt the shooters. I had the same hope, but I think the slaughterpriest is too slow and he's not even reliable because I can't fit him into a gore pilgrims list in 1k.

True, it does take a few rounds of running down the field to get him in position.

I had a bit of success one time I played him and just Whipped to Fury a pair of Khorgoraths into the gunline. They can shoot and eat up a lot of pain.

I've also been thinking of using the Dark Feast battalion to crash a wave of reavers into the line and see what they can mess up--but it is pricey to field a whole battalion meant to be wiped out (BUT THE TITHES).

[Kharneth]

52 minutes ago, Zamik said:

True, it does take a few rounds of running down the field to get him in position.

I had a bit of success one time I played him and just Whipped to Fury a pair of Khorgoraths into the gunline. They can shoot and eat up a lot of pain.

I've also been thinking of using the Dark Feast battalion to crash a wave of reavers into the line and see what they can mess up--but it is pricey to field a whole battalion meant to be wiped out (BUT THE TITHES).

I only have 1 Khorgorath and 10 Bloodreavers. I'm not sure how useful the khorgorath would be since it seems I'll need either speed or numbers. Idk what you're up against, but 30 crossbowmen have 60 shots and they're dealing 30 wounds with a lot of -1 rend so I really either need to drown him in bodies, which would cost time and money, or I can try for a turn 1 charge or something. His one unit killed almost all of my 20 blood warriors, which was nearly half my army in 1 turn of shooting. 

 

I'm thinking about taking amassing juggernauts to go with WoK Thirster and bloodletters, but I'm not sure if that'll be better than gore pilgrims. I'm not really sure what else to do because he really killed my entire army with a single unit before I could make it to him and I can only see one thing that might work, which is charging with bloodletters on turn 1 with a bloodthirster close behind and whatever else following further back.

[Praecautus]

You are always going to be shoot v a shooting army, which sounds obvious, but it means something will be shot and lost. The trick then is to make the opponent choose so you decide what he shoots eg keep the big guy out of range so he can't be shot or plan for it to be shot. While that is happening get your chaff in.

In my example above I had a scary blood thirster whic was thrown forward, opponent had to deal with it w shooting or it would have blown his genera away.  In that time while they are in 'cover'  the rest of my army moves into to position to claim objectives and score points while reaver chaff is whipped in behind the thirster to then snarl up the bastiladon shooting. Yes expensive to lose a thirster but it paid in that the 3 or 4 turns the reavers were in the bastiladons faces meant the bastiladons could not move or shoot the summoned blood letters or resummoned thirster or the units camping the objectives.

[Kharneth]

31 minutes ago, Praecautus said:

You are always going to be shoot v a shooting army, which sounds obvious, but it means something will be shot and lost. The trick then is to make the opponent choose so you decide what he shoots eg keep the big guy out of range so he can't be shot or plan for it to be shot. While that is happening get your chaff in.

In my example above I had a scary blood thirster whic was thrown forward, opponent had to deal with it w shooting or it would have blown his genera away.  In that time while they are in 'cover'  the rest of my army moves into to position to claim objectives and score points while reaver chaff is whipped in behind the thirster to then snarl up the bastiladon shooting. Yes expensive to lose a thirster but it paid in that the 3 or 4 turns the reavers were in the bastiladons faces meant the bastiladons could not move or shoot the summoned blood letters or resummoned thirster or the units camping the objectives.

Was that at 1k, though?

[Kazimer]

I've been thinking about using the Khorne Beastmen warscroll. Is it worth it to run? Furthermore, should I get those Khorne Beastigors while they're on made to order? Or would it be better to just run Bulls or stock standard Gors instead?

[Luke1705]

41 minutes ago, Kazimer said:

I've been thinking about using the Khorne Beastmen warscroll. Is it worth it to run? Furthermore, should I get those Khorne Beastigors while they're on made to order? Or would it be better to just run Bulls or stock standard Gors instead?

You mean the khorne battalion? Yes it might be the best thing in that book.

[phizzco]

5 hours ago, Kharneth said:

Retro,

S*** for some reason I thought skullcrushers had 3 wounds each, so they are tougher but they don't have quite as many attacks. 

I see, so it's that extra command point that really makes it work? Because if I roll a 1 or 2 to run I will be out of the 12" charge threat range, assuming there's an enemy unit set up on the frontline of the enemy deployment zone. 

I'm concerned about charging the Bloodthirster alone. The way I see it, I can get a 1st turn charge with one of them and a 2nd turn charge with the other, but something is getting shot up but the crossbowmen either way. If I take these guys, I doubt he'll have his crossbowmen on the frontline, so I probably won't make it into combat with them until after they've shot. 

Praecautus,

I still like gorecleaver on juggerlord because when he charges and wounds on a 5 it's 3 wounds and a 6 is mortal wounds, everything else is still -2 rend so it really eats through armor. 

What do you mean he can only shoot the closest unit?

Zamik,

I had a slaughterpriest, aspiring deathbringer, bloodstoker, 2x10 blood warriors, and 2x5 skullreapers. All but 3 of my blood warriors died from the first volley and the slaughterpriest wasn't going to be within range until my 3rd hero phase, which would've been far too late to disrupt the shooters. I had the same hope, but I think the slaughterpriest is too slow and he's not even reliable because I can't fit him into a gore pilgrims list in 1k.

Honestly sounds like you just learned a lesson here. You'll probably do better even with the same army if you were to face them again.

[Kharneth]

1 minute ago, phizzco said:

Honestly sounds like you just learned a lesson here. You'll probably do better even with the same army if you were to face them again.

I don't think it's possible for my list to beat his list unless I go first on the second turn, that's part of the reason I'm frustrated. I can't see a way to traverse 24" without getting shot up by his crossbowmen without taking the WoK thirster and some whipped bloodletters. 

[Kazimer]

34 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:

You mean the khorne battalion? Yes it might be the best thing in that book.

Would Beastigors be good in that comp? Or would Gors simply be the best choice?

[Luke1705]

1 minute ago, Kazimer said:

Would Beastigors be good in that comp? Or would Gors simply be the best choice?

I actually like bullgors. Sure you need some gors to be cheap screening units and objective holders, but bullgors hit nice and hard

[Kazimer]

I don't think I can physically GET bullgors. My local store has Doombulls for a hero choice, but otherwise Bullgors are out of print on the store page, and not found anywhere around in physical boxes.

[Roark]

I'm blanking out here guys. Which publication was it that formed the death knell for Bloodmarked Warband? (ie: that the Allegiance named at the top of the Battalion warscroll was where the points came from, ie: Everchosen - and therefore allies)

Was it the GHB, an FAQ?? Argh...

[Praecautus]

7 hours ago, Kharneth said:

Was that at 1k, though?

2k but similar concepts apply, although I will admit khorne I find khorne a difficult army at 1k. Obvious things are play on a 4x4 with scenery, also use the open war scenario generator.

one fun trick at 1k could be Sayl the faithless and some khorne marked chaos warriors. Teleport them near the bow men and then whip on your bloodletters while he deals with the warriors

[Retro]

5 hours ago, Kharneth said:

I don't think it's possible for my list to beat his list unless I go first on the second turn, that's part of the reason I'm frustrated. I can't see a way to traverse 24" without getting shot up by his crossbowmen without taking the WoK thirster and some whipped bloodletters. 

Out of curiosity, how much terrain did you guys use and what was the battleplan?

Terrain can make a big difference (cover/break line of site) and sometimes you can win on objectives even if your army gets creamed.

Edit:

I was just browsing the malign sorcery artifacts and found ragged cloak. Not a great artifact for a tournament but might be good on a bloodthirster against this shooting list.

Once per game he can't be targetted by shooting

Edited November 20, 2018 by Retro

[Zamik]

7 hours ago, Retro said:

Out of curiosity, how much terrain did you guys use and what was the battleplan?

Terrain can make a big difference (cover/break line of site) and sometimes you can win on objectives even if your army gets creamed.

Edit:

I was just browsing the malign sorcery artifacts and found ragged cloak. Not a great artifact for a tournament but might be good on a bloodthirster against this shooting list.

Once per game he can't be targetted by shooting

Yes, terrain can really help get heroes up the board and keep them there--slaughterpriests don't have to see the targets of their prayers to hit them!

Also, definitely with Retro on checking out Realm Artefacts. If your army is from Aqshy, you can take the Thermalrider Cloak, which gives the wearer +4" movement and the ability to fly.

Edit: priests have to see the target of their blessings, but not their prayers (blood bind, blood boil).

Edited November 20, 2018 by Zamik
Minor correction

[Kharneth]

We had decent terrain. There were two castle walls that were about 6" long and just as high, so they blocked line of sight but not to my advantage. There was a large rock in the middle that I used to block his cannon's line of sight to my characters and a small house in my deployment zone that I used for the same thing. There was more terrain, like a forest in front of my deployment zone behind one of the castle walls and another forest in front of his deployment zone. His crossbowmen were behind his forest and by his 2nd turn he had his swordsmen in the forest, so that's where the melee was going to happen but I'm sure he was planning to keep my unit out of the forest. The mission we played was First Blood, which turned out to be the worst scenario. 

He had 2x15 swordsmen, 30 crossbowmen, a (dwarven) cannon, a wizard with a -1 to hit debuff (miasma), a mounted general, and a warrior priest that he was hoping I'd let him use in his free guild army (I guess they're a separate faction, now). Because there was no objective he did not move forward at all and just repositioned his swordsmen to cover his cannon and crossbows. He deployed first and gave me first turn. I had, like I said, 2x10 warriors, 2x5 reapers, a bloodstoker, slaughterpriest, and aspiring deathbringer. I ran forward and he shot me. When his shooting was done, his cannon had missed and his crossbows (plus battleshock) left me with 2 blood warrior champions and 1 standard bearer. Then he won initiative on the 2nd turn and moved the rest of his swordsmen so that one unit covered the front in the forest and the other protected the inner flank, cannon, and characters. At this point I conceded because I knew the skullreapers would take wounds as fast as the blood warriors.

I think I could have a chance with my list if I got the initiative on turn 2, but that's too unreliable. I'm pretty confident that the bloodthirster, bloodletters, and bloodstoker could beat him without relying on getting any first turns, I'm just annoyed because I bought all these new khorne models just to replace them with the same units I've been using in 40k. 

 

Ragged Cloak could actually be really nice. If I had 30 bloodletters in combat with 15 or 30 swordsmen and then a bloodthirster standing just shy of charge range waiting for the next turn, who do you think would get hailed by crossbow bolts? Those crossbowmen will inflict 32 wounds with about half of them -1 rend, so they'll reliable kill either the bloodletters or the bloodthirster. 

 

Other than for battalions, what is the benefit/advantage of taking blood warriors over skullcrushers? It has recently occurred to me that skullcrushers have the same defense, but slightly greater wounds, and superior offense compared to blood warriors. In addition, they're faster and don't take up much more space in melee (do you guys fight in 2 ranks with blood warriors?). This question is for people who use Juggerlords or who take blood warriors over skullcrushers in lists that have exceeded the minimum battleline requirements. 

 

Thanks for the responses, I've only been playing against my one friend so my experience has been very limited. 

[Fireymonkeyboy]

14 hours ago, Roark said:

I'm blanking out here guys. Which publication was it that formed the death knell for Bloodmarked Warband? (ie: that the Allegiance named at the top of the Battalion warscroll was where the points came from, ie: Everchosen - and therefore allies)

Was it the GHB, an FAQ?? Argh...

Wait, what?  I thought as long as everything in the battalion had a keyword, the battalion was treated as having it as well?

[Retro]

2 hours ago, Kharneth said:

Thanks for the responses, I've only been playing against my one friend so my experience has been very limited. 

Ok fair enough, I was just making sure you played with terrain and objectives. When I first started out playing 40k (15 years or so ago) we only ever played till the last man standing and often without terrain. Made for very bad battles (I was Orks and almost always was turned into pink mist before ever reaching them).

What I was thinking was just the bloodthirster, not bloodletters too (trying to keep in mind you using some of those new models). If you give him the ragged cloak, whip him, command ability and possibly the run 6" command ability too he should manage to hit the enemy lines turn 1. If you hit the crossbows they wont be buffed so their stand and shoot will only be 4+/4+ and rend on 6s and I imagine you'll kill a few.

In his turn when he tries shooting with them you pop the cloak ability so he can't be targeted. If he's in combat with them they can't shoot at all. You could also try to keep the rest of your units just outside of their range until your next turn so they have to shoot the thirsters but can't because of the artifact.

If you have bloodletters as well then you can use his command ability and whip and fling them across the table to engage someone else (turn one keep them out of range). If he moves the crossbows to get into range, makes your charge easier and he can't use the command ability to give them +1 hit and wound so they will be a bit more pillow fisted.

Wrath of khorne - 320

Bloodstoker - 80

Jugger lord - 140

Blood warriors - 100

Skullreaper - 170

Skull crushers - 140

950 points

Or

Wrath of khorne - 320

Stoker - 80

Jugger - 140

Bloodletters -320

Skullcrushers - 140

1000 points - no extra command point but probably a better list overall. You could swap the skull crushers for reavers if you want the extra command point.

[Retro]

3 hours ago, Kharneth said:

Other than for battalions, what is the benefit/advantage of taking blood warriors over skullcrushers? It has recently occurred to me that skullcrushers have the same defense, but slightly greater wounds, and superior offense compared to blood warriors. In addition, they're faster and don't take up much more space in melee (do you guys fight in 2 ranks with blood warriors?). This question is for people who use Juggerlords or who take blood warriors over skullcrushers in lists that have exceeded the minimum battleline requirements. 

Personally I find bloodwarriors middling at best. I mostly use them because they are a requirement in a battalion and cover off battle line at the same time.

That said, bloodletters are also battleline so you often don't need many bloodwarriors.

If you have a bloodsecrator in the army to provide immunity to battleshock, and extra attacks, bloodreavers actually come out more cost effective for both offence and staying power so I normally plump out my lists with them instead.

[Kharneth]

17 minutes ago, Retro said:

Ok fair enough, I was just making sure you played with terrain and objectives. When I first started out playing 40k (15 years or so ago) we only ever played till the last man standing and often without terrain. Made for very bad battles (I was Orks and almost always was turned into pink mist before ever reaching them).

What I was thinking was just the bloodthirster, not bloodletters too (trying to keep in mind you using some of those new models). If you give him the ragged cloak, whip him, command ability and possibly the run 6" command ability too he should manage to hit the enemy lines turn 1. If you hit the crossbows they wont be buffed so their stand and shoot will only be 4+/4+ and rend on 6s and I imagine you'll kill a few.

In his turn when he tries shooting with them you pop the cloak ability so he can't be targeted. If he's in combat with them they can't shoot at all. You could also try to keep the rest of your units just outside of their range until your next turn so they have to shoot the thirsters but can't because of the artifact.

If you have bloodletters as well then you can use his command ability and whip and fling them across the table to engage someone else (turn one keep them out of range). If he moves the crossbows to get into range, makes your charge easier and he can't use the command ability to give them +1 hit and wound so they will be a bit more pillow fisted.

 

I expect to be unable to charge the crossbowmen with any unit I send across the board because that relies on my enemy placing them without any screens and even if my friend did this, he'd only do it once lol. So, whether it's a bloodletter bomb or a bloodthirster, I think it's likely that it'll be in combat with the swordsmen. The bloodthirster could get a good charge roll and with the right set-up might be able to fly-charge the crossbowmen (right?). If I took only the bloodthirster I'd probably be better off going for a turn 2 charge and using the 1st turn to avoid being shot up as he'd definitely be the prime target. 

With the bloodletters I was thinking after their initial charge they'll have slain a lot of the enemy unit. With the bloodthirster immune to shooting for the turn, the bloodletters will be shot at or the skullcrushers will be targeted (they should be in position to move/charge at this point). So, he shoots the bloodletters and probably kills all/most of them, but the skullcrushers and bloodthirster will be charging. 

[Xasz]

Darn, I recently finished "Warqueen" and the difference in Battletome-Khorne to book-Khorne is just infuriating. In short, brainless frat-bros who cannot hold a single thought for more than 5 seconds vs knights with a certain battle-lust, a twisted sense of honor, some form of low infrastructure (dread holds, prisons, forges...) while being able to play the long game mentally. (Eight Lamentations is another good and depressing example of what Mortal Khorne should be...)

Got really hyped up to continue painting my Blood Warriors instead of my Nurgle force but then I realized again why I shelved my mortal forces in the first place...

[Roark]

20 hours ago, Fireymonkeyboy said:

Wait, what?  I thought as long as everything in the battalion had a keyword, the battalion was treated as having it as well?

I finally found it. Check out page 7 of the core rules designers' commentary:

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/age_of_sigmar_core_rules_designers_commentary_Basesizes_en.pdf

Everchosen battalions and the units they contain count towards a Khorne army's allied points. Bloodmarked Warband is dead man... :-(

 

[Fireymonkeyboy]

2 hours ago, Roark said:

I finally found it. Check out page 7 of the core rules designers' commentary:

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/age_of_sigmar_core_rules_designers_commentary_Basesizes_en.pdf

Everchosen battalions and the units they contain count towards a Khorne army's allied points. Bloodmarked Warband is dead man... 😞

 

 

Okay, but does this trump the thing about "if all units in a battalion have a keyword, the battalion has that keyword as well" thing?  I mean, I get that a battalion from, say, Beasts (not the Khorne one, one of the others) means it's allies, but if everything has Khorne, it's still a Khorne battalion, no?

 

[Xasz]

11 minutes ago, Fireymonkeyboy said:

Okay, but does this trump the thing about "if all units in a battalion have a keyword, the battalion has that keyword as well" thing?  I mean, I get that a battalion from, say, Beasts (not the Khorne one, one of the others) means it's allies, but if everything has Khorne, it's still a Khorne battalion, no?

 

It's within the FAQ/Designers Commentary, which beats anything that is written in a battletome.

As this was discussed several times and even GW was forced to make  a definite statement, here are some quotes:

Quote

Q: Many older battletomes have a page of rules for warscrolls, warscroll battalions and allegiance abilities. Are these rules replaced by the new core rules for warscrolls, warscroll battalions and allegiance abilities?

A: Yes.

Quote

Q: The rules say that a warscroll battalion can include allies and that they don’t count against the number of allies in the army. Does this rule only apply to battalions that share the same allegiance as the army, but that have units from two different factions (a battalion in a Daughters of Khaine army that has Daughters of Khaine and Stormcast Eternals units, for example)?

A: Yes. The faction a warscroll battalion belongs to is shown on its warscroll, above the title of the battalion. In addition, the battalion is assumed to belong to the Grand Alliance that its faction is a part of. Warscroll battalions that share the same allegiance as an army can always be taken as part of the army, and if they include any allied units, these units do not count against the limits on the number of allies the army can have (or against the points limit that can be spent on allies in a Pitched Battle). An army can include a warscroll battalion of a different allegiance to the rest of the army, but if it does so the units in it do count against the limits on the number of allies the army can have (and the points for the battalion and the units in it count against the points limit that can be spent on allies in a Pitched Battle).

Quote

Q: Some warscroll battalions included in battletomes do not have a faction listed above their title. How do I determine which faction they belong to for the purposes of allegiance abilities?

A: The battalion belongs to the battletome’s faction. For example, the warscroll battalions in Battletome: Stormcast Eternals are part of the Stormcast Eternals faction.

Quote

Q: Can the battalions in this book be used in Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh or Tzeentch armies?

A: Yes, but the battalion and all of the units in it would be allies.

There are no loopholes and this issue has been discussed to death as several players enjoyed the Everchosen battalions... there seems to be a distinct hate for them on GW's side as they've made an exception with Beasts of Chaos to this rule recently.

It's feasible that GW wants them out of the way until they've (re)done a Everchosen/StD/Darkoath book.