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Yep, thats an option. Im still team Karanak though. Free unit of Fleshhounds I cant dismiss.

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What if we started drowning opponents in bodies (and blood) with MSU's?   It would rack up BTs fast, and could give us board control with positioning (sure our enemy wants to move a unit but first they have to chew through multiple ranks of our MSUs).    

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Well you get BT but boardcontrol and MSU dont gel too well in my experience with the previous editon. Going through 10 lads doesnt usually thake too long. Even when we are immume to Battleshock.

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19 minutes ago, Killax said:

Well you get BT but boardcontrol and MSU dont gel too well in my experience with the previous editon. Going through 10 lads doesnt usually thake too long. Even when we are immume to Battleshock.

Sorry I meant board control in terms of placement of your opponents summoned/deep striking units.  since most have to stay 9" or greater away from you

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8 hours ago, Killax said:

 

Tzeentch and Nurgle as we speak outthreat and outpace us. On top of having a way more solid Allegiance ability.

In retrospect the cost increases on key units hurt harder too as we can summon but cant do anything on top of it. Unlike the rest of the allegiances basically.

And the cost is ridiculous.

A slann can basically summon freely 20 skinks per turn, while a khorne player need to see two units wyped out to summon 5 bloodletters... instead of using those points to dispell a key spells! 

Edited by ledha
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double post, sorry

Edited by ledha

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56 minutes ago, Killax said:

Yep, thats an option. Im still team Karanak though. Free unit of Fleshhounds I cant dismiss.

Yeah Karanak is another great unit now, just not a fan of the flesh hound models.

Looking for advice on my updated Gore Pilgrims list with the new points adjusted:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Khorne

Leaders
Mighty Lord Of Khorne (120)
- General
- Trait: Slaughterborn
- Artefact: Mark of the Destroyer
Bloodsecrator (140)
- Artefact: The Brazen Rune
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Bronzed Flesh
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Blood Sacrifice
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Killing Frenzy
Skarr Bloodwrath (80)

Battleline
10 x Blood Warriors (200)
- Goreaxes
- 1x Goreglaives
5 x Blood Warriors (100)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
5 x Blood Warriors (100)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
40 x Bloodreavers (240)
- Meatripper Axes

Units
5 x Wrathmongers (180)
1 x Chaos Warshrine (160)
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
- Blood Blessing: Resanguination
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (90)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (90)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Battalions
Gore Pilgrims (200)

Might drop one of the Slaughterpriests for Karanak, if I can find alternative models maybe. Not much mortal wound output but the Slaughterpriests can do a bit with some good rolls.

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44 minutes ago, chord said:

Sorry I meant board control in terms of placement of your opponents summoned/deep striking units.  since most have to stay 9" or greater away from you

While I do get that I think there are MANY reasons to include Karnak first.

Karanak & Fleshhounds
Afbeeldingsresultaat voor karanak
Pros:
- 90 points, decent life, speed and attacks.
- Can Unbind spells, when succesful Wizard suffers D3 Mortal Wounds.
- Summons 5 Flesh Hounds, equivelant of "free 3 Blood Tithe points" he and unit are equivelant of 2 Blood Tithe points.
- RAW can Prey of the Blood God our own HERO.
- Flesh Hounds can Unbind spells, re-rolling if failed when within 8" of a DAEMON HERO of KHORNE.
- Free 25 attacks *including Bloodsecrator buff.
- Flesh Hounds can protect our HERO with Look Out Sir benifits.


Cons:
- Thakes up Leader slot.
- Isn't a (keyword) DAEMON HERO.

Meta:
- If Magic is going to be potent, better bring potent defences, I think 2 unbinders for 90 points is a deal.

So basically anyone who's willing to go into a BT stack, think free units who add it and cheap effectiveness. I don't think it gets any cheaper than this for us whilst being effective in many ways. 

 

33 minutes ago, ledha said:

And the cost is ridiculous.

A slann can basically summon freely 20 skinks per turn, while a khorne player need to see two units wyped out to summon 5 bloodletters... instead of using those points to dispell a key spells! 

Yeah... yeah as before, I think we can have some potent fun with Khorne but as neat as this new edition is as silly as some of the internal Faction balance is.

What can I say? I think someone at the AoS designteam stepped in around 2017 and REALLY likes Seraphon. I mean they were amongst the best factions in Gh2017 and I think it's save to say they still are now with the new edition.

20 minutes ago, Towenaar said:

Yeah Karanak is another great unit now, just not a fan of the flesh hound models.

Looking for advice on my updated Gore Pilgrims list with the new points adjusted:

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Khorne

Leaders
Mighty Lord Of Khorne (120)
- General
- Trait: Slaughterborn
- Artefact: Mark of the Destroyer
Bloodsecrator (140)
- Artefact: The Brazen Rune
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Bronzed Flesh
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Blood Sacrifice
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Killing Frenzy
Skarr Bloodwrath (80)

Battleline
10 x Blood Warriors (200)
- Goreaxes
- 1x Goreglaives
5 x Blood Warriors (100)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
5 x Blood Warriors (100)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
40 x Bloodreavers (240)
- Meatripper Axes

Units
5 x Wrathmongers (180)
1 x Chaos Warshrine (160)
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
- Blood Blessing: Resanguination
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (90)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (90)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Battalions
Gore Pilgrims (200)

Might drop one of the Slaughterpriests for Karanak, if I can find alternative models maybe. Not much mortal wound output but the Slaughterpriests can do a bit with some good rolls.

I do get that but still, I think they look okay-ish. I have them all and I like them more as their WFB 5th ed counterpart and WFB 6th ed counterpart for sure. Even within the range we have now they arn't the worst. They just look a little bit too much like lizards basically. 

I like your list but would simply combine the Blood Warrior units into 1 unit of 10. I feel the Goreglaive makes the difference.

Lastly I do think that these can make cool proxies:
Afbeeldingsresultaat voor netherhound

657-2368-thickbox.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Killax said:

While I do get that I think there are MANY reasons to include Karnak first.

Karanak & Fleshhounds
Afbeeldingsresultaat voor karanak
[...]
Lastly I do think that these can make cool proxies: [...]

(Other con: the model is horrible. :( )

Those proxies don't work at a GW store or Warhammer World or GW sponsored event.

GW ‘friendly’ Alternatives:

50mm round base and one of :

- Dire Wolves

- Chaos Warhounds

- Fenrissian Wolves (with an appropriate paintjob.)

Something like this:

07B6D307-8FAA-41E3-891A-DB1A53DFFC1D.jpeg.8734c26077ca1c412d8ef8f55cb7dc8d.jpeg659B7CDD-A0F3-44B8-8011-E7A17B65A3DB.jpeg.e160ebee8bb17d20222b6d9d753f29c3.jpeg

 

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8 minutes ago, Killax said:



- RAW can Prey of the Blood God our own HERO.

 

 

Didn't realise this, he's pretty much an auto include on that basis alone. Literally a free unit of Flesh Hounds. Better learn to love the model I guess! Though the Barghest Fiends you posted look like cool alternatives. Also didnt realise he lacked the Daemon Hero keyword though, that's pretty strange. Does this mean he cannot benefit from Look out Sir!?

Modelling question - I noticed flesh hound seem to come with 50mm round bases, are they supposed to be on Cavalry bases like Dire Wolves or is this their correct base size?

 

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4 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

(Other con: the model is horrible. :( )

Those proxies don't work at a GW store or Warhammer World or GW sponsored event.

GW ‘friendly’ Alternatives:

50mm round base and one of :

- Dire Wolves

- Chaos Warhounds

- Fenrissian Wolves (with an appropriate paintjob.)

Something like this:

I suppose many don't like him huh? I mean I agree he isn't the best but I do assure it's a whole lot better still as 5th and 6th Flesh Hounds in my opinion :P 

But yeah if you want to go GW friendly alternatives those are some good ones. My personal gripe with the wolf approach is that it just looks to Chaos Warhoundy to me. Plus I think this can look cool too:


99800112019_KhymeraeNEW_01.jpg

I guess I'm one of the few who can handle their sculpts? :/ 

2 minutes ago, Towenaar said:

 

Didn't realise this, he's pretty much an auto include on that basis alone. Literally a free unit of Flesh Hounds. Better learn to love the model I guess! Though the Barghest Fiends you posted look like cool alternatives. Also didnt realise he lacked the Daemon Hero keyword though, that's pretty strange. Does this mean he cannot benefit from Look out Sir!?

Modelling question - I noticed flesh hound seem to come with 50mm round bases, are they supposed to be on Cavalry bases like Dire Wolves or is this their correct base size?

 

No worries, I get it because a lot of stuff for this edition suddenly matters where before it didn't at all. I think the models look allright. But I get why some dislike them. As before I am not a huge fan on their lizard like design also.

RAW he can't use the Look Out Sir rule, not that it matters though, if opponents want to thake them out they are free to do so as long as the Flesh Hounds dropped ;) 

50mm bases are their correct base size, more or less also confirmed again for Age of Sigmar with the Shadespire unit that also had a seperate Flesh Hound (Riptooth) on a 50mm base.

Fleshhounds in 40k also still are used with those bases and such. They are a whole lot bigger as your regular Warhound too, which is why GW friendly proxies are hard to come up with. Or at least ones I like. The above 'fleshy hounds' for example are smaller too. 

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As for Mortal Khorne, i think however that a full Brass Stampede, even with the point increase, will still be a force to reckon with

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59 minutes ago, Killax said:

I guess I'm one of the few who can handle their sculpts? :/ 

Khymerae are awesome looking models ... they’re also finecast and $20usd for 2 (+base costs) and are more expensive than the generic finecast fleshhounds. The finecast fleshhounds are okay sculpts ... but at $50usd for 5 they’re not money efficient. Fenrissian Wolves are $25 for 5 (plus costs for the 50mm bases) and Chaos Wolfhounds are $25 for 10 (plus base costs) and some sculpting time to give them collars. Direwolves are similarly $25 for 10 (plus costs for 50mm bases)So $10 (or more) USD a model vs ~$2.50(+base) a model...

The Direwolves are also NOT in the standard CHAOS model range. Which means that you can use Chaos wolfhounds ... and Direwolves (counts as Fleshhounds) in the same list as they’re visually distinct.

Karanak is just a really old ... frumpy looking sculpt that doesn’t fit well with the new aesthetic. I’d probably do one of the plastic Fleshhounds, and use a Bloodthirster Head... maybe on a 75x42mm base?

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21 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Karanak is just a really old ... frumpy looking sculpt that doesn’t fit well with the new aesthetic. I’d probably do one of the plastic Fleshhounds, and use a Bloodthirster Head... maybe on a 75x42mm base?

I'm just going to be honest and say I wouldn't jump to any more additional hoops as I need to. Karanak and the Flesh Hounds have a very simple reason to excist and that's to stop painful magic to occur throughout the game basically, protect Heroes and ideally grab objectives. Small stuff that gets in their way still needs to watch out and else they will just die. Which is okay too. More than okay even.

But hey go with whatever aesthetic you prefer. A Bloodthirster head is somewhat on the massive side but if you want a massive Karanak, why not. Thing is that with a decent save and such it can still all be quite easily removed. But again their purpose isn't to survive anyway.

My prime reason to run Karanak is low cost, simple and effective functionality whilst actually being one of the very few pieces with optimized BT synergy. As it's the only unit who gives us a unit for free that is more/equal it's cost. As such it can work as a 'buffer' to the cost increase found on Bloodletters. 

I don't really believe in MSU approaches but small units can and should be in the army. Karnak is two small units for 90 points. That's just 10 points more as a Bloodstoker, who's functionality by comparison is much lower. 

When I look at the leaked/spoiled info I see a quite a lot of cost/balance oddities, as always we should thake it to our advantage if we can (applies to all armies) and this time Karanak is the one.

41 minutes ago, ledha said:

As for Mortal Khorne, i think however that a full Brass Stampede, even with the point increase, will still be a force to reckon with

If you can muster the willpower to build that many Skullcrushers than more power to you! 

I do agree that it can be a possible functional army. However due to base sizes it can still run into the odd trouble of terrain being on tables. For example they can hassle with a simple Blight Tree... It's this small experience that kept me off from it.

I do like Skullcrushers though, obviously even more this edition as they can interact well with shooting units and have that nice magical protection. However they still (in my mind) have a more supportive role. Brass Stampede changes this but that base size is a real thing still.

Edited by Killax

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I think its worth saying that the option to summon in the hero phase still exists, from my reading if we do hit 8 Blood Tithe points we can summon a Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster, who can then use its command ability on itself for 1 command point. Gives him an 8 inch charge to get straight into the fight, rerollable with another command point... if you've got a few saved it could be a good play. Pretty situational though. But if you get lucky with some Blood Boils to finish off some weak enemy units and a Blood Sacrifice you can generate quite a few Blood Tithe points in one hero phase.

In the defense of Flesh Hounds, they do look pretty good in this art, maybe with a different paint job they might look better.

1bf9354b0a2257978b27f96835c92727.jpg

Edited by Towenaar
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51 minutes ago, ledha said:

As for Mortal Khorne, i think however that a full Brass Stampede, even with the point increase, will still be a force to reckon with

I've use the brass stampede quite often, at a small local tournament I crushed my first two opponents and managed to tie my last game vs daughters of khaine. The points increase will make me rethink the non brass stampede part of my list which I was planning on anyway. I have not had too many issues with terrain when using min size skullcrusher units but I also play in a casual setting where we tend to play a little loose with terrain rules. I am really tempted to break my self imposed rules and ally in a wizard for the cronomantic cogs for even more speed.  

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9 hours ago, Towenaar said:

Looking for advice on my updated Gore Pilgrims list with the new points adjusted:

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Khorne

Leaders
Mighty Lord Of Khorne (120)
- General
- Trait: Slaughterborn
- Artefact: Mark of the Destroyer
Bloodsecrator (140)
- Artefact: The Brazen Rune
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Bronzed Flesh
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Blood Sacrifice
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Killing Frenzy
Skarr Bloodwrath (80)

Battleline
10 x Blood Warriors (200)
- Goreaxes
- 1x Goreglaives
5 x Blood Warriors (100)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
5 x Blood Warriors (100)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
40 x Bloodreavers (240)
- Meatripper Axes

Units
5 x Wrathmongers (180)
1 x Chaos Warshrine (160)
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
- Blood Blessing: Resanguination
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (90)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (90)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Battalions
Gore Pilgrims (200)

Might drop one of the Slaughterpriests for Karanak, if I can find alternative models maybe. Not much mortal wound output but the Slaughterpriests can do a bit with some good rolls.

I would min max the troops you have, you could get away with having just 5 Bwarriors and 2x10 reavers. This would save some points to get some reapers who would benefit from the priests buffs. If you switched to kill frenzy on 2 priests you'd really be able to ramp up the damage. I wouldn't lose a priest for Karanak most players will just gun him down, I would play a few games swapping out the MLoK or skar to see the best fit

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9 hours ago, ledha said:

As for Mortal Khorne, i think however that a full Brass Stampede, even with the point increase, will still be a force to reckon with

I was mad enough to play several 2000 pts games with Brass Stampede being the whole army. That's 36 Skullcrushers (5 units by 6 and 2 units by 3) and a LoKoJ.

I should say that I slightly regret assembling so many Skullcrushers, because this list has a lot of problems.

To begin with it's hard to control the charge distance and unit positioning, since your opponent will do everything to deny your charges. The best way to inflict damage with Brass Stampede is to charge your opponent before he charges you, but it's not always possible. There is no way to get to the enemy units in the first turn.  Getting a double turn helps a lot but it's unreliable.

In order to inflict those sweet D6 mortal wounds on charge the unit most contain at least 6 models. Your opponent needs to kill just one model and your unit becomes almost as bad as it is with 3 models.

Skullcrushers' huge base size in combination with low attack count results in a rather low damage. On average I could manage to get 3-4 Skullcrushers from a single unit into the actual fight, but they didn't perform very well. Sometimes the dice were so bad, they didn't inflict any wounds at all.

D3 mortal wounds on a roll of 2+ in your hero phase happen only once for each enemy units. It's a nice addition but it didn't feel powerful enough to force your opponent to retreat. I am not sure that taking full Brass Stampede is worth it at this point.

Skullcrushers seem to be good at engaging the enemy units and holding them in a fight. They have 5 wounds per model with 4+ save which makes them really tanky. I wish they could swing those glaives a little better, though.

I'd rather take 3 units of Skullcrushers, a LoKoJ and something to buff them up. Brass Stampede is not good on it's own in my opinion.

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15 minutes ago, BloodGodWorshipper said:

 

I was mad enough to play several 2000 pts games with Brass Stampede being the whole army. That's 36 Skullcrushers (5 units by 6 and 2 units by 3) and a LoKoJ.

I should say that I slightly regret assembling so many Skullcrushers, because this list has a lot of problems.

To begin with it's hard to control the charge distance and unit positioning, since your opponent will do everything to deny your charges. The best way to inflict damage with Brass Stampede is to charge your opponent before he charges you, but it's not always possible. There is no way to get to the enemy units in the first turn.  Getting a double turn helps a lot but it's unreliable.

In order to inflict those sweet D6 mortal wounds on charge the unit most contain at least 6 models. Your opponent needs to kill just one model and your unit becomes almost as bad as it is with 3 models.

Skullcrushers' huge base size in combination with low attack count results in a rather low damage. On average I could manage to get 3-4 Skullcrushers from a single unit into the actual fight, but they didn't perform very well. Sometimes the dice were so bad, they didn't inflict any wounds at all.

D3 mortal wounds on a roll of 2+ in your hero phase happen only once for each enemy units. It's a nice addition but it didn't feel powerful enough to force your opponent to retreat. I am not sure that taking full Brass Stampede is worth it at this point.

Skullcrushers seem to be good at engaging the enemy units and holding them in a fight. They have 5 wounds per model with 4+ save which makes them really tanky. I wish they could swing those glaives a little better, though.

I'd rather take 3 units of Skullcrushers, a LoKoJ and something to buff them up. Brass Stampede is not good on it's own in my opinion.

Yeah, i know those issues. However, the new shooting rules and the biggest presence of magic, for a list which is very good against magic and can quickly tie-up shooting unit (forcing the ennemy to have chaff or automatically loose) will make them better than before.

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Well I don't think that will make them better than before. It just means that your opponent is more forced to deal with them, but if your whole army is Skullcrushers it doesn't really matter.

I think many seem to invalidate shooting a little bit too much. Even the -1 to hit on characters isn't the end of the world for good shooting. But if you're running the Brass Stampede not too much space is left for a massive slew of support characters anyway. 
One of the reasons why I like Karanak despite lacking the Hero keyword is that I frankly speaking don't care if my opponent will try to focus onto him. I mean worst comes worst it's a lost 90 point model that gave me 5 Flesh Hounds to protect key support heroes.

Lastly I do think Brass Stampede is an option. But from most reviews Ive seen and seeing it all in play, it isn't easy to manage and otherwise allround succesful. The big bases are really a thing for those models. It's still good offcourse but rend -1 only still gets you so far. There are offcourse additional Mortal Wounds involved but it's dicey and often not nearly enough to secure/suggest an important kill. This is why Bloodletters have been so essential to our succeses so far.

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Guys do you think an infantry based mortal list, that uses BT for buffs and dispels and not summoning is going to be playable in second edition?

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16 hours ago, Killax said:

While I do get that I think there are MANY reasons to include Karnak first.

 

I never said not to take Karnak,  In fact if his sculpt wasn't so ugly (or the flesh hounds I would own them)

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I'm about to improve my khorne mortal army (1000) to 2000 points for this second edition and i'm wandering what to buy, as i see, karanak and flesh hounds are a good option, anyways, what do you recommend me to improve it?

 I currently own:

- 1 Mighty Lord

- 2 SLaughterpriest

-1 Bloodsecrator

-1 Bloodstoker

- 20 Bloodreavers

- 15 BloodWarriors

- 3 Mighty SkullCrushers

- 10 Bloodletters

- 1 Korgorath

Thankyou!

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4 hours ago, BloodGodWorshipper said:

 

I was mad enough to play several 2000 pts games with Brass Stampede being the whole army. That's 36 Skullcrushers (5 units by 6 and 2 units by 3) and a LoKoJ.

I should say that I slightly regret assembling so many Skullcrushers, because this list has a lot of problems.

To begin with it's hard to control the charge distance and unit positioning, since your opponent will do everything to deny your charges. The best way to inflict damage with Brass Stampede is to charge your opponent before he charges you, but it's not always possible. There is no way to get to the enemy units in the first turn.  Getting a double turn helps a lot but it's unreliable.

In order to inflict those sweet D6 mortal wounds on charge the unit most contain at least 6 models. Your opponent needs to kill just one model and your unit becomes almost as bad as it is with 3 models.

Skullcrushers' huge base size in combination with low attack count results in a rather low damage. On average I could manage to get 3-4 Skullcrushers from a single unit into the actual fight, but they didn't perform very well. Sometimes the dice were so bad, they didn't inflict any wounds at all.

D3 mortal wounds on a roll of 2+ in your hero phase happen only once for each enemy units. It's a nice addition but it didn't feel powerful enough to force your opponent to retreat. I am not sure that taking full Brass Stampede is worth it at this point.

Skullcrushers seem to be good at engaging the enemy units and holding them in a fight. They have 5 wounds per model with 4+ save which makes them really tanky. I wish they could swing those glaives a little better, though.

I'd rather take 3 units of Skullcrushers, a LoKoJ and something to buff them up. Brass Stampede is not good on it's own in my opinion.

That's why I plan to stick with 7x3 skullcrushers max, maybe try out 6x3 and 1x6 units because I have 24 skullcrushers total. I had enough points to also have 2 slaughterpriests, 2x10 bloodreavers, and 2x5 wrathmongers. Typically the bloodreavers run up ahead of my skullcrushers fo eat the enemy's charge and die to trigger the charge bonus. With units of 3 I usually don't have an issue getting them all into combat.  Even with the extra units I still have difficulty protecting objectives when there is more than 1 or 2. So far I have faced armies that the skullcrushers can tie up in combat so I don't have to leave too much behind but I would imagine armies that can teleport or otherwise get past the skullcrushers would easily take objectives from my list.

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I'm giving the new edition a go tonight vs a friend's stormcast.

im taking:

Allegiance: Khorne
Aspiring Deathbringer (80)
- General
- Bloodaxe and Wrath Hammer
- Trait: Violent Urgency
Bloodsecrator (140)
Bloodstoker (80)
Skarr Bloodwrath (80)
10 x Blood Warriors (200)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
- 1x Goreglaives
40 x Chaos Marauders (200)
- Axes & Shields
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
10 x Chaos Warriors (180)
- Halberd & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Skullreapers (170)
- Daemonblades
- 1x Soultearers
5 x Wrathmongers (180)
5 x Chaos Knights (160)
- Chaos Glaives
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Total: 1470 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 145

 

im hoping it's gonna be fun!
 

 

Edited by medivouk
new points
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