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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

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11 hours ago, daviseford said:

Hey guys and gals, we just added your favorite blood-drenched maniacs to AoS Reminders!

Give it a whirl!

If you haven't used AoS Reminders yet, it's basically a cheat-sheet for different phases of the game. It originally started when I kept forgetting to do things with my Seraphon army in the hero phase - since then we've added a bunch of armies. Over 5,000 people use it every month - give it a whirl!

This is pretty awesome, going to give it a try! I will say the rules and name for Council of Blood has changed to Tyrants of Blood. 

(edit) Actually it looks like everything is from our old book which pretty much makes this unusable however the idea is awesome.

Edited by twrightii
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5 hours ago, twrightii said:

This is pretty awesome, going to give it a try! I will say the rules and name for Council of Blood has changed to Tyrants of Blood. 

(edit) Actually it looks like everything is from our old book which pretty much makes this unusable however the idea is awesome.

Check it out now! I have updated everything to 2019. If you notice any lingering units/battalions that shouldn't be there, let me know!

Thanks for the feedback!

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3 hours ago, daviseford said:

Check it out now! I have updated everything to 2019. If you notice any lingering units/battalions that shouldn't be there, let me know!

Thanks for the feedback!

Fantastic!
Is it possible to add the Brass Despoilers battalion in there?
MASSIVE bonus for their units (Doombull of Khorne, etc)

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2 minutes ago, Blackspine said:

Fantastic!
Is it possible to add the Brass Despoilers battalion in there?
MASSIVE bonus for their units (Doombull of Khorne, etc)

Can you tell me where to find this battalion's rules? I absolutely can.

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The battalion is in the Beasts of Chaos book. It gives the Khorne keyword to beasts in that battalion. 

PMing you w details shortly
(i meant 'it would be a massive bonus to have their units in the reminder app/site')

 

and there are bonuses. 

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Just came back from a huge 4k vs 4k tag team game. Was teamed with NH and played against Fyreslayers and Idoneth. Well, long story short: We ended the game end of turn 3 as there was nothing we could do beside getting tabled.

While talking after the game we compared some units and rules and gosh, I am just buffed how overcosted Might Skullcrushers are compared to Akhelian units. The MW output can be simply denied by an countercharge, there is no aftersave, no charge bonus on rend and we are forced to play huge units that are a pain to play as any ammount of terrain ends in a quite suboptimal move or charge. Meanwhile, IDK have almost double to speed, fly, have smaller bases, have access to several huge buffs etc. etc.....man, I just feel bad for my army. I really didn´t wanted to agree that the Blades of Khorne are a bad book but compared to other tomes it is really a joke. Also the whole Bloodtithe-System again. I was forced to charge the enemy on their turn due to a double turn that would have ended in a huge strategic disadvantage. That set me back from 6 to 0 BT so I can at least have a chance to compete for another round.

For this evening, I really hate that battletome.

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5 hours ago, Charleston said:

Just came back from a huge 4k vs 4k tag team game. Was teamed with NH and played against Fyreslayers and Idoneth. Well, long story short: We ended the game end of turn 3 as there was nothing we could do beside getting tabled.

While talking after the game we compared some units and rules and gosh, I am just buffed how overcosted Might Skullcrushers are compared to Akhelian units. The MW output can be simply denied by an countercharge, there is no aftersave, no charge bonus on rend and we are forced to play huge units that are a pain to play as any ammount of terrain ends in a quite suboptimal move or charge. Meanwhile, IDK have almost double to speed, fly, have smaller bases, have access to several huge buffs etc. etc.....man, I just feel bad for my army. I really didn´t wanted to agree that the Blades of Khorne are a bad book but compared to other tomes it is really a joke. Also the whole Bloodtithe-System again. I was forced to charge the enemy on their turn due to a double turn that would have ended in a huge strategic disadvantage. That set me back from 6 to 0 BT so I can at least have a chance to compete for another round.

For this evening, I really hate that battletome.

Can I ask what your lineup was? I’ve been cleaning up with skarbrand and reapers of vengeance. Got a couple more bloodthirsters on the go. With the latest point drops a full tyrants list with reapers of vengeance seems incredibly overpowered.

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3 hours ago, Troll.exe said:

Can I ask what your lineup was? I’ve been cleaning up with skarbrand and reapers of vengeance. Got a couple more bloodthirsters on the go. With the latest point drops a full tyrants list with reapers of vengeance seems incredibly overpowered.

"Overpowered" seems like a stretch considering the current power level of books. More like "reasonable" or "maybe I am not getting slaughtered.

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46 minutes ago, Xasz said:

"Overpowered" seems like a stretch considering the current power level of books. More like "reasonable" or "maybe I am not getting slaughtered.

Yea quiet possibly. I’d be interested to hear from someone who’s run a full tyrants list post points adjustments. My last few games were a breeze, although I’ve only faced stormcast, seraphon  and nighthaunt recently. Regardless I’m really happy with the book and I can only see upside once I’ve finished my next two bloodthirsters.

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5 hours ago, Troll.exe said:

Can I ask what your lineup was? I’ve been cleaning up with skarbrand and reapers of vengeance. Got a couple more bloodthirsters on the go. With the latest point drops a full tyrants list with reapers of vengeance seems incredibly overpowered.

Well, I played Khorne Mortals:

Allegiance: Khorne
- Slaughterhost: The Goretide
Mortal Realm: Ulgu


Bloodsecrator (120)
- Artefact: Thronebreaker's Torc 
Bloodstoker (80)
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Blood Sacrifice
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Bronzed Flesh
Daemon Prince of Khorne (160)
- General
- Trait: Hew the Foe 
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Mighty Lord of Khorne (140)


10 x Blood Warriors (200)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
- 1x Goreglaives
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Reaver Blades
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Reaver Blades
6 x Mighty Skullcrushers (360)
- Ensorcelled Axes
5 x Wrathmongers (140)
5 x Skullreapers (180)
- Goreslick Blades
Gore Pilgrims (140)
Wrath-Axe (60)
Bleeding Icon (40)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 136

The opponent was a Fyreslayer Vostarg List with 2 Magmadroth-Heroes, 2 on foot, 2x10 or 3x10 Vulkites with different weapons and 10 Heartguards. They were sided by a Idoneth/Sylvaneth mix with an Akhelian core (2x offensive Eels, 1x defensive, Volturnos, Drycha, 1 Leviadon, 3 Kurnoths with greatswords, some Reavers and some heroes to teleport them). Well, mistakes were made as my Skullcrushers charged the Hearguard and a Magmadroth and were slayed outright. Also, after turn 1 the Akelians were 6-7" away from my army and got the double turn, which forced me to waste Bloodtithe onto a charge so I could at least bind them so they were not able to charge my core units. He just withdraw in his movement so I was not able to charge him and he could go full in during turn 3 with max buffed units. All in all we were forced to go full in in the attempt to weaken their deathstars and were stomped by thoose nevertheless. I was forced due to the ammount of terrain to move in a pretty bad way. I couldn´t position the Skullcrushers were I needed them because of the Idoneth Terrain, and I couldn´t charge as there were a rock in the middle of out starting zone that costed me several inches of movement.

Yeah, the ammount of salt was high afterwards~

Althrough there were some nice situations in the game, too. Blood Warriors vs 3 Units of Vulkites in an Turn 1 Charge were a highlight as due to the Berserker Ability of the Vulkites there were units fighting in death on both sides, killing more and more of the enemy.

Edited by Charleston

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I have to be honest I'm very confused by Khorne's lack of success. It seems to have all the tools, and when I've played against them only having previous knowledge of the book has let me play against them well. 

Is it possible that the demographic that might be drawn to playing Khorne competitively are just too Khorne-like? Or does the faction inherently telegraph it's game plan making it easy to play against? Is there some sort of internal comp prohibiting players from building the true skew list for tournaments?

I'd like a really high level discussion, before jumping into points or warscrolls for a minute if possible. Maybe a discussion like this might help uncover places where you are struggling as opposed to where you have agreed the struggle is. 

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55 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

I have to be honest I'm very confused by Khorne's lack of success. It seems to have all the tools, and when I've played against them only having previous knowledge of the book has let me play against them well. 

Is it possible that the demographic that might be drawn to playing Khorne competitively are just too Khorne-like? Or does the faction inherently telegraph it's game plan making it easy to play against? Is there some sort of internal comp prohibiting players from building the true skew list for tournaments?

I'd like a really high level discussion, before jumping into points or warscrolls for a minute if possible. Maybe a discussion like this might help uncover places where you are struggling as opposed to where you have agreed the struggle is. 

From my understanding of the game, there is a lot about interactions between units and rules.

In general, each faction brings it´s ruleset to the board and then the players try to match their strengths against the enemies weakness on the board to get the advantage that wins the game (-> tactic). This interaction is the funny part of the game, which also most often decides what local group metas look like as they are defined by what units are played. It is a Rock-Scissors-Paper game where your faction decides whenever you are one of the three, and your tactic allows you to shift you choice so you may nevertheless win the game. Khorne is really good at this stage of the game. We have a ton of diverse units and rules. Our strengths are MW´s, the Ability to shut down a lot of Magic and a lot of units which can get into different roles.

But in such a big and complex game, there are also rulesets that allow you to skip the interaction between units. Fighting for example is all balanced around activations from both players (->interaction). Also there are a lot of other factors which actually balance the overall punch of meele damage in the game, like the fact that you can´t activate units more than once. Often you are in a spot whenever the right pattern of activations can really do a lot for your board. Now we have more and more rules that allow your units to fight earlier than the enemy. If this is for one model, it can already be a pretty neat advantage that can decide whenever an importan model can survive or not. In cases where there are several units that fight first, like the IDK, this gets twisted even more, as the IDK Player has the strategical advantage of fightning first, so maybe his opponents won´t be able to fight back anymore.

Such rules, that allow to skip interactions, simply also skip the natural balancing that was established within the game mechanics before. On a small scale, this is what actually every single special rule do, and it is great as it prevents the game from beeing dull. But as soon as an certain threshold is reached, thoose rules are more and more an balancing issue.

That also defines the current meta: Armies that can do their stuff without giving the enemy an chance to stop them. Or just skipping their defences to wreck havoc like DoK do. Or denying the enemy parts of the board, like Skaven Warpstorm does. AA and A Tier is also defined by armies that have a way to skip such interactions. Althrough this is not the only factor, as mobility and defensive capabilities are also quite important. And this is what points out the issues with Khorne and reflects why our strong units are focused around daemons: Daemons can fight first and twice and are fast. Mortals simply lack these important capabilities that are required to break the game, or at least distort it so you can win the game without risking the enemy to do something big against it.

As a player who dislikes to build an army around power and who prefers units by fluff or sympathy, I am really concerned about the current state of the game~

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26 minutes ago, Charleston said:

From my understanding of the game, there is a lot about interactions between units and rules.

In general, each faction brings it´s ruleset to the board and then the players try to match their strengths against the enemies weakness on the board to get the advantage that wins the game (-> tactic). This interaction is the funny part of the game, which also most often decides what local group metas look like as they are defined by what units are played. It is a Rock-Scissors-Paper game where your faction decides whenever you are one of the three, and your tactic allows you to shift you choice so you may nevertheless win the game. Khorne is really good at this stage of the game. We have a ton of diverse units and rules. Our strengths are MW´s, the Ability to shut down a lot of Magic and a lot of units which can get into different roles.

But in such a big and complex game, there are also rulesets that allow you to skip the interaction between units. Fighting for example is all balanced around activations from both players (->interaction). Also there are a lot of other factors which actually balance the overall punch of meele damage in the game, like the fact that you can´t activate units more than once. Often you are in a spot whenever the right pattern of activations can really do a lot for your board. Now we have more and more rules that allow your units to fight earlier than the enemy. If this is for one model, it can already be a pretty neat advantage that can decide whenever an importan model can survive or not. In cases where there are several units that fight first, like the IDK, this gets twisted even more, as the IDK Player has the strategical advantage of fightning first, so maybe his opponents won´t be able to fight back anymore.

Such rules, that allow to skip interactions, simply also skip the natural balancing that was established within the game mechanics before. On a small scale, this is what actually every single special rule do, and it is great as it prevents the game from beeing dull. But as soon as an certain threshold is reached, thoose rules are more and more an balancing issue.

That also defines the current meta: Armies that can do their stuff without giving the enemy an chance to stop them. Or just skipping their defences to wreck havoc like DoK do. Or denying the enemy parts of the board, like Skaven Warpstorm does. AA and A Tier is also defined by armies that have a way to skip such interactions. Althrough this is not the only factor, as mobility and defensive capabilities are also quite important. And this is what points out the issues with Khorne and reflects why our strong units are focused around daemons: Daemons can fight first and twice and are fast. Mortals simply lack these important capabilities that are required to break the game, or at least distort it so you can win the game without risking the enemy to do something big against it.

As a player who dislikes to build an army around power and who prefers units by fluff or sympathy, I am really concerned about the current state of the game~

Very well put. Totally agree that the mortals have not been shown any love in this regard. I’ve got around 4K points to pick from and I’m fond of my mortals for sure but they just don’t get the work done.

I typically bring 2 priests, 1 bloodsecrator, 5 wrathmongers and 3 sets of 5 blood warriors as my mortal side of my army. The warriors are a meat shield exclusively and the wrathmongers I spend the whole game running towards the action in a line perpendicular to the enemy. I’ve settled on reapers of vengeance and double attack with skarbrand with every chance I get. I’ve two more bloodthirsters I’m working on currently to take advantage of tyrants. It feels like tyrants of blood is this books equivalent of gore pilgrims from the previous tome. You almost have to take it.

 

Edited by Troll.exe

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1 hour ago, Charleston said:

Snip

For me though Khorne has a lot of solutions for these things built in. 

The Blood tithe table is one of the largest tool boxes in the game. The ability to use it in your turn in a similar fashion to endless spells to make the priority role less important or the result of that role less important is huge. 

One thing I have noticed is players treating chaff like blood tithe and I believe that is the wrong attitude. Because Blood Tithe is a one shot type resource hording is a poor choice. You should be generating it according to your plan, and have some ability to generate it in as many phases as possible. If you can chaff a target successfully without losing the unit you should. And if you lose the chaff unit it should be on your own highly informed terms. Not just a chaff target + BTP = win basis. 

Personally I have the belief that you should have 6 BTP going into the priority roll for turn 3 as often as possible. Simple to activate relentless fury. 

Perhaps we could have a conversation about Khorne and start with its Battle Traits, how to maximize those traits and how they should affect army building?

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4 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

I have to be honest I'm very confused by Khorne's lack of success. It seems to have all the tools, and when I've played against them only having previous knowledge of the book has let me play against them well. 

Is it possible that the demographic that might be drawn to playing Khorne competitively are just too Khorne-like? Or does the faction inherently telegraph it's game plan making it easy to play against? Is there some sort of internal comp prohibiting players from building the true skew list for tournaments?

I'd like a really high level discussion, before jumping into points or warscrolls for a minute if possible. Maybe a discussion like this might help uncover places where you are struggling as opposed to where you have agreed the struggle is. 

Ignoring shifting playerbases due to newer releases for now...

Khorne has a rather high amount of players/collectors due to them being one of two armies with which AoS started. 

There is hardly a player that's been with AoS since the beginning that does not have some Khorne models or even an army.

While popularity ebbs and flows with releases, Khorne usually has a good and constant representation in tournaments (just look through the open lists of a couple tournaments on aosshorts or honestwargamer). There were some good performances when BoK2.0 dropped (mostly revolving around Archaon) but it has been rather quite recently (FEC, Skaven, Slaanesh taking the limelight).

To answer the main question, except Gloomspite the powerlevel of the recent books is just beyond what BoK can produce reliably

Personally, I feel that all our possible setups are mostly okayish but have at least one popular army that will almost auto-win against it (which denies 5-0s, 4-1s and over all good results in tournaments).

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4 hours ago, Charleston said:

 I am really concerned about the current state of the game~

No offense but isn't that kind of the entire history of warhammer? People find best army X then exploit the every living heck out of it.

 

I mean I still remember 7th edition Chaos Daemons, that was like what 10 years ago?

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1 hour ago, kenshin620 said:

No offense but isn't that kind of the entire history of warhammer? People find best army X then exploit the every living heck out of it.

 

I mean I still remember 7th edition Chaos Daemons, that was like what 10 years ago?

Haha yeah, I guess you are right.

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2 hours ago, Charleston said:

Haha yeah, I guess you are right.

Though that being said I can understand it seems strange that GW should be more attentive and responsive to this kind of stuff.

Like old GW I get it, they really hated any criticism (I think I remember they tried to have a facebook or twitter but everyone used it to attack them so they deleted all the comments) but new GW appears to be more open minded with things like "the big faq" and yearly point changes. Yet there are very odd decisions with not much explanation, like how Rockgut Troggoths went to 140pts but Chaos Bullgors are still sitting at 160.

(I still love you bullgors)

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@Charleston idoneth and Fryeslayers are two strong armies, mortals are the weaker part of the BoK book, change up your list.

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15 hours ago, Troll.exe said:

Yea quiet possibly. I’d be interested to hear from someone who’s run a full tyrants list post points adjustments. My last few games were a breeze, although I’ve only faced stormcast, seraphon  and nighthaunt recently. Regardless I’m really happy with the book and I can only see upside once I’ve finished my next two bloodthirsters.

What list are you currently playing with and against?

i had a game today of shifting objectives against gristlegore FEC, game was a major win to me but it was a close match.

my list:

BoUF, WoKB (reapers), skarr 

Minimum gore pilgrims

10 skullreapers

2x5 dogs

hexblah skulls

 

With the new FAQ I’m getting 90pts which is enough to add 5 blood warriors to the minimum gore pilgrims,  id say the list is capable but I’m regularly facing death, FEC and slaanesh- which can all bring back or bring on more models faster than I can and who’s key attack units outstrip anything we have. Gristlegore ghoul king with feeding frenzy, 2x30 reaper units raised back for 1cp or slaanesh BS summoning.

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4 hours ago, MOMUS said:

What list are you currently playing with and against?

i had a game today of shifting objectives against gristlegore FEC, game was a major win to me but it was a close match.

my list:

BoUF, WoKB (reapers), skarr 

Minimum gore pilgrims

10 skullreapers

2x5 dogs

hexblah skulls

 

My last game I ran reapers,

bloodsecrator, bloodstoker, 2x priests, skarr, bloodmaster(General)

2x 5 blood warriors

20x bloodletters 

5x wrathmongers

5x skullreapers 

6x mighty skullcrushers

skulls

Im still a little bit restricted with what I have available but managed to make do with the bloodmaster general just to get reapers and the bloodletters run with the wrathmongers and bloodsecrator to make them viable.

My opponent was Stormcast. He ran ballistas, evocators, sequitors, lord castellant and staunch defender etc. Formed up and I ran through him with ease in 3 battle rounds.

The game before that was 3k against nighthaunt. Chainrasps, grimghasts Lady Olynder, kurdoss, blackcoach, vampire lord allied in for the grimghasts. Guardian of souls etc, all the standard stuff. Nothing too scary.

I used much the same lineup, added more bloodletters, 20dogs, another bloodsecrator etc. Held the middle easily with all the anti magic. Almost tabled him, close on victory points though. 

 

I dont have any FEC, skaven, Slaanesh in my area so I’m yet to face them. Definitely going to be some painful lessons at some stage in the future lol. 

Looking at dropping the blood stoker, skullcrushers, bloodletters, bloodmaster for BoIR and WoKB that I’m working on currently.

 

 

 

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@Troll.exe This sounds quite familiar to what I play /what my models allow me to play. Can you tell me a bit more about how you utilize you units? Especially Skullcrushers seems hard to field for me

 

@MOMUS Yeah I am afraid so. I actually prefer mortals due to their aesthethic, and the price spot for 3 Bloodthirster is not low for me but I guess I will have to look into them to keep up~

I will get a kit of Skullreapers/Wrathmongers today. I already have 1 of each and therefore with the new kit I can either play the Bloodforged or the Skulltake and Slaughterborn. Which of them is better in your opinion?
->Bloodforged seems like a nice way to get the maximum out of Wrathmongers, spamming a ton of -1 Rend attacks twice. Also two units of Wrathmongers mean a bigger radius of the +1A bubble

->Skulltake seems a bit....lackluster. I mean, yes, I find Khorne lacks multiwound damage, but a random +1 Damage is really not spicy in my eyes. Or do I overlook something?

->Slaughterborn on the other side looks fantastic to me. Two Skullreaper Units reap twice the skulls, and having them a better save against Rend is really something usefull 😮

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19 minutes ago, Charleston said:

->Skulltake seems a bit....lackluster. I mean, yes, I find Khorne lacks multiwound damage, but a random +1 Damage is really not spicy in my eyes. Or do I overlook something?

->Slaughterborn on the other side looks fantastic to me. Two Skullreaper Units reap twice the skulls, and having them a better save against Rend is really something usefull 😮

Skulltake was OK in the last book if you wanted to play mortals and not Gore Pilgrims, but in this book it doesn't cut it anymore when compared to other batallions. IMO.

As a mortal player I like Slaughterborn a lot. Not just that it helps the Skullreapers survive, it also helps weathering the charges that come at us and is great for setting up huge anvils. I myself like to run a 15 man BW unit with Gorefists as an anvil, they become quite an obstacle when they ignore -1 rend in CC. Especially if you whip them and/or cast Bronzed flesh on them. 

Edited by Bjornas
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33 minutes ago, Charleston said:

@Troll.exe This sounds quite familiar to what I play /what my models allow me to play. Can you tell me a bit more about how you utilize you units? Especially Skullcrushers seems hard to field for me

 

 

Blood warriors as chaff. Wrathmongers and bloodsecrator up the middle. Wrathmongers long ways so I can run them up without them getting in the way. Bloodletters on one side with the bloodmaster, skarbrand on the other. Skullcrushers on the side with the bloodstoker and skullreapers in behind.

i whipped the skullcrushers for +4 to charge including the hornblower and suicide charged them in to take out 5 sequitors and a couple of evocators. Lost 5 out of 6 to the evocators retaliation. But I’d opened them up and next turn was able to charge skarbrand in with a double attack within both wrathmongers and bloodsecrator. Game was pretty much over at that point. Bloodletters were in the double bubble too but we’re not needed. Skullreapers were ready to be whipped and charge if needed.

skullcrushers don’t really do much once they’ve charged, so I like to whip them to make so they make it in. They took out the 5 sequitors on the charge then did like 4-5 wounds with their actual attacks lol.

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