AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Charleston]

29 minutes ago, DestroyerBirb said:

Do you mean the reaver’s ability or the bloodsecrator’s ability  

Both actually. Bloodsecrator can´t be stacked as well as the inherited ability of the reavers triggers only once

[fwlr]

Bloodsecrators don't stack

'add 1 to the attacks of melee weapons used by friendly khorne units wholly within 16" of any model with this ability.'

Not only is 16" a right pig to fit 40 reavers into but it doesn't stack.

Same for the totem ability ;

'add 1 to the attacks characteristics of this units melee weapons whilst this unit is wholly within 16" of any friendly khorne totems'

So they can only get 2 extra attacks each which is insanely difficult to pull off anyway.

Still strong, potential for 4 attacks each, but taking more than 1 bloodsecrator is not worth it (unless you're running all bloodreavers which I don't think is very strong, they're pretty killy however struggle to get in range to attack and if they get hit. They die. They die fast. Then run away.)

But hey, rule of cool. Could Use the warscroll battalion to grant an additional attack to the bloodreavers from the totem which wouldn't be a bad investment, but bloodreavers really shouldn't ever be the backbone of a force imo.

[PivotalCar]

2 hours ago, DestroyerBirb said:

Ok any 1k armies I could use or.................. what

If you want to play a horde army, then maybe Khorne isn't best for you. At 1k, I would recommend, 1 bloodsecrator, 1-2 slaughterpriests, a bloodstoker, and then a melee assassin. For battleline 10 blood warriors are good, maybe some skullreapers or wrathmongers, and 2 units of 10 reavers for objectives. You can also throw in some khorgoraths if you want. 

If you like daemons, then a block of 30 letters, some hounds and a daemon hero plus a priest and a bloodsecrator are very effective. 

but do not. Do not. Ever run more than 40 bloodreavers for any reason whatsoever. 

[swarmofseals]

On 6/27/2019 at 11:56 AM, Battlefury said:

1* Concider the unit size of the Betsigors. It is pretty tough to get 30 into combat vs one unit. But if you intend to get multiple units into combat with them, then you're good with them.

2* Keep an eye to your allied point pool, since 400 points is pretty fast reached.

4* You have a lot of fast units, that are good as chaffing and screening. But atm you lack of real hammers. The Betsigors are good hammers, but will crumble in melee. Maybe bring in some solid Hammers, that do reliable damage. I would not go with Bloodthirsters in your composition. Concider Skullgrinder(s), Khorgoraths ( they can chaff & destroy reliably ). Skullreapers are pretty good as hammers. Bullgors don't do the job too, since they get smashed easily.

5* You could, and that's just a bold idea, go with the BoC allegiance. You can spam Betsigors, coming from the sides. You can summon in more Betsigors for Primodial Callpoints. If you don't have the army for that, you're fine with Khorne then.

6* I don't know if Gore Pilgrims wastes your points here. What is the real purpose of it? I guess to have the Banner in range. Personnally, I would surround the Banner with some cheap units like 3,5", so he can't that easily be caught in combat.
 

Just some thoughts about your thoughts!

1 - I'm not worried about this. Against a single target they will probably destroy it even if I can't get everyone in range, and I do intend to hit multiple units when I can across a broad front

2 - The only ally I am taking is the Gaunt Summoner. The BoC stuff doesn't count as allies when you are using the Brass Despoilers battalion.

4 - Yeah, I'm clearly taking at least one other hammer unit, likely either a second unit of Bestigors or a larger unit of Centigors. I don't really want to use things like Skullreapers or Khorgoraths as they will increase my drops. I'm also not sure why these would be good choices compared to things like Bestigors/Bullgors/Centigors. Khorgoraths are 12.5 points per wound with a 4+ save compared to Bestigors 10 points per wound with a 4+ save and Centigors 8 points per wound with a 5+ save (4+ in melee). Khorgoroths' offensive efficiency is also really mediocre, worse even than plain Gors. 10 Skullreapers has the same 30 wounds and 4+ save that 30 Bestigors have, but costs 60 points more. Skullreapers have modestly better offensive efficiency (.0629 vs. a 5+ model unit) than Khorgoraths, but they are still worse than Bestigors. Even in the worst case scenario (vs a unit between 5 and 9 models, not charging) Bestigors have an offensive efficiency of .105. They also benefit more from extra attacks, can run (at +1) and charge, pile in +1", and have 1" more move to begin with. I just don't see a good reason to take Skullreapers over more Bestigors. 

5 - This is totally valid, and I'm not sure that the Khorne framework is at all advantageous vs. a BoC framework. I'm mostly just seeing where I can push chaos-god aligned lists to see if they are worthwhile. I'll likely make a post at some point in the BoC thread covering the comparisons between all four god options and straight BoC.

6 - Yeah, I don't really know either. The advantages are that it reduces the number of drops and allows a second and even third Slaughterpriest plus the increased range on the Bloodsecrator, which potentially a big deal. But it's also forcing me to take Bloodreavers and Blood Warriors and I don't get nearly as much of a benefit out of the extra artefact.

[whispersofblood]

3 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

4 - Yeah, I'm clearly taking at least one other hammer unit, likely either a second unit of Bestigors or a larger unit of Centigors. I don't really want to use things like Skullreapers or Khorgoraths as they will increase my drops. I'm also not sure why these would be good choices compared to things like Bestigors/Bullgors/Centigors. Khorgoraths are 12.5 points per wound with a 4+ save compared to Bestigors 10 points per wound with a 4+ save and Centigors 8 points per wound with a 5+ save (4+ in melee). Khorgoroths' offensive efficiency is also really mediocre, worse even than plain Gors. 10 Skullreapers has the same 30 wounds and 4+ save that 30 Bestigors have, but costs 60 points more. Skullreapers have modestly better offensive efficiency (.0629 vs. a 5+ model unit) than Khorgoraths, but they are still worse than Bestigors. Even in the worst case scenario (vs a unit between 5 and 9 models, not charging) Bestigors have an offensive efficiency of .105. They also benefit more from extra attacks, can run (at +1) and charge, pile in +1", and have 1" more move to begin with. I just don't see a good reason to take Skullreapers over more Bestigors. 

5 - This is totally valid, and I'm not sure that the Khorne framework is at all advantageous vs. a BoC framework. I'm mostly just seeing where I can push chaos-god aligned lists to see if they are worthwhile. I'll likely make a post at some point in the BoC thread covering the comparisons between all four god options and straight BoC.

 

My impression about BoC after drafting them into my HoS is that the BoC units are actually are very good units, they are just lacking the punchy allegiance abilities and keyword hero support that the other Chaos Factions have in spades.

[Skumbaagh]

Hi all, and thanks for a great thread. I am normally lurking in the destruction forums but I have been really into getting myself a khorne dragon to play with.. Just got ghb19 and didn't find any points for vorgaroth in there. Did I miss something or is he no longer viable in matched play? 

[Darksteve]

8 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

4 - Yeah, I'm clearly taking at least one other hammer unit, likely either a second unit of Bestigors or a larger unit of Centigors. I don't really want to use things like Skullreapers or Khorgoraths as they will increase my drops. I'm also not sure why these would be good choices compared to things like Bestigors/Bullgors/Centigors. Khorgoraths are 12.5 points per wound with a 4+ save compared to Bestigors 10 points per wound with a 4+ save and Centigors 8 points per wound with a 5+ save (4+ in melee). Khorgoroths' offensive efficiency is also really mediocre, worse even than plain Gors. 10 Skullreapers has the same 30 wounds and 4+ save that 30 Bestigors have, but costs 60 points more. Skullreapers have modestly better offensive efficiency (.0629 vs. a 5+ model unit) than Khorgoraths, but they are still worse than Bestigors. Even in the worst case scenario (vs a unit between 5 and 9 models, not charging) Bestigors have an offensive efficiency of .105. They also benefit more from extra attacks, can run (at +1) and charge, pile in +1", and have 1" more move to begin with. I just don't see a good reason to take Skullreapers over more Bestigors. 

Just a little clarification here. Bestigors only reach 10 point/model on max squad size and that is discounting the overhead cost of the battalion you are required to pay for. Also at max size 30 32mm bases are difficult to fit in against a variety of units and through terrain which should be addressed as well. I agree bestigors are a great unit but if they do not get the charge the numbers are more even with a 10 man bestigor unit doing 0.04611 damage/point against a 5+ save unit less than 10 models and a khogorath doing 0.037037.

[Azlak the Damned]

5 hours ago, Skumbaagh said:

Hi all, and thanks for a great thread. I am normally lurking in the destruction forums but I have been really into getting myself a khorne dragon to play with.. Just got ghb19 and didn't find any points for vorgaroth in there. Did I miss something or is he no longer viable in matched play? 

Vorgoath is 1200 points. It's matched play profile is on its warscroll.

[Skumbaagh]

Sure but they said all forgeworld models would be included in ghb19.  I guess we have to wait for the FAQ, they may adress it in there.

[fwlr]

I guess that a decent list with vorgorath would be the big man and then gore pilgrims. Reduced drops, battleline sorted, his support sorted too.

Vorarath 1200

Pilgrims: secrator, 2 priests, 10 warriors, 2x10 reavers. 820

Then hope that something goes down in the GHB. 

Would be a lot of fun, I'm just doubtful it's better than tyrants. Similar idea but 3>1 imo.

Although again, the dragon is the COOLEST THING EVER AHHH.

 

 

[Revan123]

So after a few months of testing I found the only way to play khorne competatively. 

Scarbrand 

Unfettered fury: artefact that allow you to fight first on 4+

Wrath of Khorne

Insensate rage: General with command trait and artefact of reapers of vengence

30xbloodreavers

Bloodsecrator

Slaughterpriest: blood sacriface

Wrath axe

So you have one command point in the pocket for 50 points. One for batallion. One at the start of your turn. Blood sacrifice will allow you to convert some blood points in command points during first turns.  That allow you to stack more points before actual fight. 

So it works that way: hide behind screen of reavers and then counter attack. Scarbrand will provide 32-64 mortal wonds depends on you rolls. Big axe thirster can spam mortal wound around. Wrath can give rerolls to Insensate rage and Scarbrand (others do not needed them). And Fury will not allow some units to retreat, allow others and himself to pile in one 6 inches (good against Slaanesh) and on 4+ even on enemy's turn you can fight first. And thirsted will hit one by another. 

In some ways it beat: 

Legions of Nagash

Nighthaunts 

Stormcast without shooting

Ghouls

Beasts of Chaos

Scaven

But there are still too many countermatchups and strong bound to 4+ roll and double turns. And everything around here is a glass cannon, mostly expensive one. But I don't know any other way to play Khorne now. 

[Revan123]

So because of this I finally painted these

Edited July 1, 2019 by Revan123

[fwlr]

Looks great! Love the bases man.

[Revan123]

3 hours ago, fwlr said:

Looks great! Love the bases man.

Thanks! They can be painted rather easily

[Azlak the Damned]

6 hours ago, Revan123 said:

So because of this I finally painted these

 

Those models look awesome! Liking the Altar of Khorne. I'm in two minds whether to paint mine like yours or go for the red I was planning on.

[Revan123]

1 minute ago, Azlak the Damned said:

Those models look awesome! Liking the Altar of Khorne. I'm in two minds whether to paint mine like yours or go for the red I was planning on.

Thanks. I am painting Khorne, except daemons, in Everchosen style

[Lord Krungharr]

I also did my Wrathmongers with black armor (red skin), and they really fit in nicely with my Cult of Malal themed Slaves to Darkness units.

But for Khorne I'm in agreement, the Thirster mob is the way to go.  I got Tyranted badly this past Saturday.  He had an Exalted Thirster too for extra good damage output.  I'll probably run Flesh Hounds for battleline, and ally in 30 bestigors with a bray shaman I think. 

Definitely gotta make a Slaughterpriest though.  Not sure I'd do Blood Sacrifice, I'm thinking Killing Frenzy for the Rage-Thirster.  And that would have helped out my Bullgors in my Beasts of Khorne army (used Brass Despoilers) .  Got my butt whooped 3 times, first by Seraphon, then the Tyrants of Blood/Darkfeast, then by a BloodHost/some Khorgoraths.  I think using 3 smaller units of Bullgors would have been much more effective than a unit of 9.  And Gors just stink.  Dragon Ogors were tanky but just don't kill enough and can die as easily as many other units, they need a ward save to reflect their immortality!

I haven't liked regular Beasts of Chaos, and don't much care for Beasts of Khorne either.  I'll go back to my roots and rebuild my Daemons of Khorne instead.  My mortal heroes can buff my mammoth when that's ready

[Towenaar]

Question: What points changes will Khorne see when they get their FAQ?  I've got a feeling we might see more increases than decreases. Maybe slaughterpriests, wrath axe? Lord on juggernaught might go down.

Also anyone want to rate my 2k Khorne list? Gone for mainly mortals:
 

Spoiler

 

Allegiance: Khorne
- Slaughterhost: The Goretide
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Daemon Prince of Khorne (160)
- General
- Trait: Hew the Foe
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike
Bloodsecrator (140)
- Artefact: Thronebreaker's Torc
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Bronzed Flesh
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Killing Frenzy
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Blood Sacrifice
Bloodstoker (80)

Battleline
10 x Blood Warriors (200)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
- 1x Goreglaives
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Meatripper Axes
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Meatripper Axes

Units
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (80)
- Javelin & Shield
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (80)
- Javelin & Shield

9 x Mighty Skullcrushers (540)
- Bloodglaives

Battalions
Gore Pilgrims (140)

Endless Spells / Terrain
Bleeding Icon (40)
Hexgorger Skulls (40)
Wrath-Axe (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 141

 

Considering maybe dropping one of the slaughterpriests and a judgement for x 5 Wrathmongers, but they'd only really be buffing some weaker battline units.

[PivotalCar]

@Towenaar

For your list, I agree with you that 3 slaughterpriests is a bit much, a unit of wrathmongers would probably be better than a priest and the icon/skulls. I am also concerned with your damage potential. The only unit that can do damage in your list is the daemon prince. If I were you, I would switch 3 skullcrushers for a unit of skullreapers. Still looks like a fun list though!

[Agent of Chaos]

Second what @PivotalCar said. 9 Crushers are really unwieldy so dropping to 6 and taking some Skullreapers would work nicely, especially if you replace a priest for some Wrathmongers. 3 Priests isn't necessarily a bad thing though.

[fwlr]

I reckon going even further on the skullreapers wouldn't be a bad thing. Drop a priest, the skulls+icon, and the crushers down to 6 and take a big blob of 10 reapers. These guys can then take buffs if your crushers are out of range/are tied up so charge ability redundant and can act as the main hammer of the list. This imo would be better than some wrathmongers and skullreapers as the mongers won't be providing much to the weaker slower units and the reapers already have enough attacks themselves. 

The icon is extra for you really, so it's a toss up between axe/skulls for what you want. Maybe skulls would help more, but the damage of the axe is tooooo tasty to pass up.

However, it doesn't look an awful list and you could have plenty of casual fun with it- I just wouldn't want to take it to a tournament.

[Smooth criminal]

On 6/27/2019 at 7:42 PM, swarmofseals said:

@Grimrock + @Smooth criminal -- thanks for the responses and advice!

Perhaps I should provide some more context. I've got a lot of Beasts of Chaos and have been thinking about doing some chaos god specific armies. In each case the bulk of the force would be in the BoC battalion with god-specific units to support. I am approaching this primarily with a competitive mindset, fwiw. 

For Khorne, I arrived at this basic framework:

Beastlord (90)

Bloodsecrator (140)

Slaughterpriest (100)

Gaunt Summoner w/ Familiars (160 - ally) 

3 x 10 Gors (210)

30 Bestigors (300)

5 Centigors (80)

Lauchon the Soulseeker (60)

Brass Despoilers (190)

 

That's 1330 points right there and forms the core of the list. It's 4 drops at the moment. I know the Gaunt Summoner is heresy, but it seems like by far the best way of getting Lauchon into the build so as to be able to hit the opponent on turn 1 with the Bestigors if desired. 

Beyond this, there are a couple of possible directions to go in:

• I'd like to add another main combat unit if possible, either a second set of 30 Bestigors or a set of 20 Centigors (+300-320 points). Another possibility would be to swap the Beastlord for a Doombull and add in a unit of Bullgors, but I'm not sure it'd be worth the loss of mobility.
• Bulking up one of the sets of Gors to 30 would be nice as well (+130 points)
• Adding further small units is an interesting possibility. I think units of 5 Centigors are ideal as they are efficient, work well in the context of the battalion ability and add a huge amount of mobility to the army. Tuskgor Chariots are also possible. They are slower and weaker but only cost 60 points. The idea with these units would be to harass the opponent, contest unexpected objectives, keep the battalion buffs active on units that matter, and just generally get in the opponent's way in order to slow them down and eventually convert into a relatively cheap blood tithe point.
• Add in Gore Pilgrims (+410 minimum, but would allow removing 1-2 units of Gors) - this would allow me to cut drops down to 3 while fitting in a second Slaughterpriest (and perhaps even a third). Having 2-3 Slaughterpriests is quite attractive and the extra range on the Bloodsecrator is quite welcome.
• Add in some sort of combat monster. The most annoying thing about this list is that it feels like I'm wasting the Slaughterhost benefits as well as most artefact benefits as I don't have any heroes that I really want fighting. That said, I'm not sure the benefits of taking a combat monster (likely a Bloodthirster) really justify the points outlay (not to mention going up to 5 drops, which is a big deal). 

Any thoughts?

I think, that:

- Lauchon isn't a good idea. Having to cast a spell is anti-synergy with shrine and you want to have a shrine. Also Khorne is very bad at alpha striking not because it's relatively slow, but because we need to stretch our auras for maximum effect and that is only doable in Gore pilgrims and only for Bloodsecrator aura. Not to mention Khorne doesn't provide bonuses to cast and if you fail the Lauchon cast you just got a 200 points of do nothing in your army.

- the biggest advantage of playing BoC is access to solid brick units because normally Khorne warscrolls are kinda bad at bricking up. I would consider 2 bricks of bestigors (at 300 they are a steal and better than anything in Khorne book) with a priest each and small screening Gor units.

- you either take Gore pilgrims or don't take Bloodsecrator at all since he will hard time catching both bricks in his aura

- BoC doesn't have flyers, so I'd take a thirster. The default one is UF, but you will need CPs for battleshock and you don't care about mortal hosts really, so  WoK with strike first artifact in Bloodlords makes more sense.

- I would pick a demon buffing host so summoned demons are buffed for free.

So that would put us at:

WoK, general, first strike

Beastlord

Bloodsecrator, 2+ save against magic

2x priests, frenzy, bronze flesh

2x30 bestigors

1x10 gors

1x10 reavers

1x5 warriors

1x Despoilers

1x Gore pilgrims

Totalling 1780, 3 drops

A case can be made for sacrifice instead of brinze flesh so you get faster to 4 BP and make your bricks fight more. On the other hand giving Bestigors +1 to save and reroll 1s on save for CP also seems great.

The rest can be filled with anything though I would prioritize judgements, fast units and small units for BPs. Like 2x5 centigors and an axe.

[Smooth criminal]

17 hours ago, Towenaar said:

Question: What points changes will Khorne see when they get their FAQ?  I've got a feeling we might see more increases than decreases. Maybe slaughterpriests, wrath axe? Lord on juggernaught might go down.

 

GW's modus operandi so far is "increase costs for popular things and decrease for unpopular ones".

I would totally expect an increase on dogs and priests and decrease on warriors, reavers.

Thirsters, reapers, crushers, letters, etc. already got adjustements in the book, I don't expect them to be changed this soon.

I really hope they dial lords back and reduce cannons to apologize for the wrathmonger fiasco, but that probably won't happen.

[Darksteve]

1 hour ago, Smooth criminal said:

I think, that:

- Lauchon isn't a good idea. Having to cast a spell is anti-synergy with shrine and you want to have a shrine. Also Khorne is very bad at alpha striking not because it's relatively slow, but because we need to stretch our auras for maximum effect and that is only doable in Gore pilgrims and only for Bloodsecrator aura. Not to mention Khorne doesn't provide bonuses to cast and if you fail the Lauchon cast you just got a 200 points of do nothing in your army.

- the biggest advantage of playing BoC is access to solid brick units because normally Khorne warscrolls are kinda bad at bricking up. I would consider 2 bricks of bestigors (at 300 they are a steal and better than anything in Khorne book) with a priest each and small screening Gor units.

- you either take Gore pilgrims or don't take Bloodsecrator at all since he will hard time catching both bricks in his aura

- BoC doesn't have flyers, so I'd take a thirster. The default one is UF, but you will need CPs for battleshock and you don't care about mortal hosts really, so  WoK with strike first artifact in Bloodlords makes more sense.

- I would pick a demon buffing host so summoned demons are buffed for free.

So that would put us at:

WoK, general, first strike

Beastlord

Bloodsecrator, 2+ save against magic

2x priests, frenzy, bronze flesh

2x30 bestigors

1x10 gors

1x10 reavers

1x5 warriors

1x Despoilers

1x Gore pilgrims

Totalling 1780, 3 drops

A case can be made for sacrifice instead of brinze flesh so you get faster to 4 BP and make your bricks fight more. On the other hand giving Bestigors +1 to save and reroll 1s on save for CP also seems great.

The rest can be filled with anything though I would prioritize judgements, fast units and small units for BPs. Like 2x5 centigors and an axe.

Isnt the 2+ save against artefact in reapers and the guarunteed first strike one in Bloodlords? Unless you mean the 4+ first strike one. Also you have 1 more artefact to choose 

[Darksteve]

1 hour ago, Smooth criminal said:

GW's modus operandi so far is "increase costs for popular things and decrease for unpopular ones".

I would totally expect an increase on dogs and priests and decrease on warriors, reavers.

Thirsters, reapers, crushers, letters, etc. already got adjustements in the book, I don't expect them to be changed this soon.

I really hope they dial lords back and reduce cannons to apologize for the wrathmonger fiasco, but that probably won't happen.

I really dont think khorne needs any increases or dialing back tbh.