KhorneySteve Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, ChaosUndivided said: This has been crucial to me. Having a big scarey unit that your opponent over commits to killing has helped me a lot. I usually just resign one of my monsters to be a sacrificial pawn while i move in for the kill with everything else. I like to double down on hammers knowing that my opponent will most likely try to shoot them down turn one. 10 minutes ago, ChaosUndivided said: I've also found this, what's even worse is that if you run multiple Bloodthirsters they struggle choosing which one to commit to! Especially in smaller points games there's very little the armies I've played can do against me. My current 1k list is WoK, IR, 30 Bloodletters and 5 Flesh Hounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosUndivided Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 @KhorneySteve yeah i like to bring warshrine + either Slaughterbrute or Mani-Lord. I have a list with all 3 i havnt tried yet. The brute is actually imho pointed correctly and on par with 5 Reapers. But he looks far more dangerous so often i will place him out front as a decoy to keep my Reapers alive and alternatively I'll put the Warshrine in front of Priest. It usually does the trick and draws the fire away from squishier stuff. All this talk of Archaon has really got me thinking now. He would be insane in a Reapers of Vengeance fight twice list. I'm thinking along side a Thirster or 2. But could also be a ton of fun in mortal list. His large base and flying, along side the fact he can just remove stuff in his way, means he could get some mileage out of Skullfiend CA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman84 Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 C&C please. Allegiance: Khorne Realm: Aqshy Slaughterhost: Reapers of Vengeance Leaders x4 Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster - 320pts General Mage Eater Skullshard Mantle Archaon - 660pts Slaughterpriest - 100pts Blood Bathed Axe Blood Sacrifice Bloodsecrator - 140pts Thermalrider Cloak Battleline x3 Flesh Hounds x10 - 200pts Gorehounds Flesh Hounds x5 - 100pts Gorehounds Flesh Hounds x5 - 100pts Gorehounds Bloodreavers x10 - 70pts Warscroll Battalion x1 Blood Hunt- 120pts Other x1 Karanak - 140pts Judgements of Khorne x1 Hexgorger Skulls - 40pts Total: 1990/2000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosUndivided Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 @jazman84 this list makes me wish i had more daemons. I think there is several completely optional "improvements" you could do. Not sure how much you really need thermal rider cloak. Its not bad choice but the Secrator can move now and his bubble is still decent. I could see taking this with the large base size of Archaon and BT and wholly within clause but idk if its necessary. I would be using the Secrator to buff up all the hounds not the behemoths, pretty sure just more bang for the buck. But giving Archaon an extra attack with slayer of kings and doghar is very tempting. The question is do you really need cloak if not than Banner of Wrath all day. Second, i dont think Blood Sacrifice is a good choice for your only Priest. Bronzed Flesh is gonna make Archaon nigh unstoppable. Sanguination is perhaps better choice too keeping his wounds up so he fights at top chart longer. Also the Reavers, which i assume you plan to sacrifice are just a straight tax. If you drop them then you have 80 points to spend on Stoker and reroll all Archaon's wounds. He is going to be crushing so hard you don't need tithe from sacrifice. Blood Hunt seems kinda meh. At best it gives you a 5 drop list, an extra artifact (which you may not need), and a command point. If you really feel like you must choose priority round 1 (i would prefer to go 2nd) and need that artifact than ok. Otherwise drop it and get 2nd Priest. Also you will have enuff points left over to take Wrath Axe instead of Skulls. I think do what you feel comfortable with but you do have options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmileB4uDieXD Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Currently in a game at the min it is the start of my opponents hero phase and I have said I’m going to spend bloodtithe points to attack in his hero phase but he has stuff that can get summoned that also says at the start of the hero phase. Who’s goes first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosUndivided Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 The player who's turn it in goes first when there is a tie "at start of phase." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmileB4uDieXD Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 But then the bloodtithe points being spent would be at the end of the phase then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosUndivided Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 If its their turn they get to decide any ties. The only things their allowed to do are the things at "start of phase" you would then get to do whatever it is your gonna do as soon thier done then they carry on with other actions until phase is over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOMUS Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 (edited) Just now, SmileB4uDieXD said: But then the bloodtithe points being spent would be at the end of the phase then... No it’s still at the start of the phase, the player who’s turn it is just gets the priority. Edited April 21, 2019 by MOMUS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth criminal Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 On 4/18/2019 at 9:02 PM, Ravinsild said: Would it be useful if we talked about what we see as the roles for our units? What is our tank unit, your chaff killers, the chaff, the hero killers and objective takers, support, and all these hammers, anvils, and so forth? I have some ideas, would you like me to list them? Do you think a unit can serve 2 roles at once? Would that help with army list building? Is there a certain recipe for having a certain amount of roles in any army? Like in MTG you want about 20% land in your deck, so you want 20% chaff, 20% anvil, 20% support, etc? Is it okay to have nothing of a particular role? What do you think makes a Khorne list strong? Good internal synergy with buffs? Strong hammers? Strong anvils? How much chaff is desired, or do we need it? Here are some numbers on units I did when trying to figure out the army composition and best buffs for everyone. Our best damage dealers: 1. Reapers 2. Letters, Reavers (need bloodsecrator buff and get a whole brick in combat) 4. Skullcrushers/bloodcrushers (on charge), dogs 5. Mongers/chaos knights (on charge) 6. Blood warriors/chaos warriors Our tankiest units: 1. Skullcrushers/big chaos warriors. 2. Chaos knights, 3. Blood warriors/reapers 4. Letter/dogs/bloodcrushers/reavers/mongers Haven't done the math on Thirsters/Manticore lord, supposedly you can safely use them as damage dealers. StD units are pretty much useless outside of big blob of chaos warriors camping an objective. So if we go with hammer+anvil approach and taking in account battleline requirements and battalions we arrive to following setups: -warriors + reapers in slaughterborn/bloodmad -warriors + mongers in bloodforged -warriors/reavers (gore pilgrims) + reapers (skulltake)/crushers(stampede)/mongers (bloodforged) -reavers (dark feast) + reapers (skulltake)/crushers(stampede)/mongers (bloodforged) -skullcrushers battleline with lord (stampede) + reapers (skulltake) -skullcrushers (stampede) + letters (murderhost) -dogs/letters + bloodcrushers (murderhost/blood host) -any battleline battalion + thirster battalion -blood host is an easy 1 drop demon army. I don't think any other 1 drop is realistic, you either get no proper support or no hammer units. I really like gore pilgrims as a start for mortal army. You pack all the support and battleline in 1 drop, just add some hammer units in their respective battalion and you're done. In terms of support payoffs: 1. Bloodsecrator is the best support boy as long as he buffs more than 1 unit. Gives additional 20-50% damage to a unit, for reavers he triples the damage if you can manage to keep him in totem range. 2. Frenzy priest and bloodstoker are about the same in terms of damage buff, decide based on context. They give 25-30% more damage with the following exceptions: frenzy priest does close to nothing for reapers and stoker buffs warriors/reavers by 50%, he's their bestest bud in Goretide really. 3. All reroll 1s are around 15% more damage. Which means hosts are 15% more free damage with conditions so take hosts. Also keep locus enablers around. Also this means Korghos Khul can have a priest/stoker-tier payoff if you ever manage to fit multiple units in his bubble. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth criminal Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 6 19 hours ago, Ravinsild said: Sorry for the negativity but I don’t think Khorne or maybe even AoS is for me. Did a 1,000 point game versus a completely new AoS player who hadn’t even played since AoS 1 and he was using Fireslayers and completely ****** on me in victory points. By top of turn 4 it was 15 to 3. I guess I’m just literally terrible at this game and at this point I guess it’s just not for me. Dude barely had any idea of what he was going but his Runefather on Magmadroth 1 shots my Daemon Prince by spewing mortal wounds on death turn 1, it took 3 turns for my Blood Warriors to kill 1 single Auric Runemaster. I pump 46 attacks into Grimwrath Berzerkers with 10 Bloodreavers and he survives and 1 shots my entire unit. At this point I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. I’m just going to stop putting input in because I have literally nothing of value to add except how to lose super hard every game. It’s clearly not Khorne because everyone else is winning. Well, if you weren't tabled early and by turn 4 score was 15 to 3 you clearly don't play objectives properly. As a rule of thumb you should score as much objectives every turn as physically possible and only after that try to do other things. If it's a choice between killing things and scoring you should score. Don't pick fights that you can't win, like the 10 reavers vs. berserkers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosUndivided Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 7 minutes ago, Smooth criminal said: Frenzy priest and bloodstoker are about the same in terms of damage buff, decide based on context. They give 25-30% more damage with the following exceptions: frenzy priest does close to nothing for reapers and stoker buffs warriors/reavers by 50%, he's their bestest bud in Goretide really. Im glad someone did math on this. I felt Stoker is just the better of the 2 buffs but there is a lot to unpack here. First the range difference. Stoker is buffing 10 man squads at best and only if you play him smart. Priest buff range is better but relies on a dice roll... Not dependable. Priest has an extra wound, maybe is better in combat? Realisticly you're not trying to get in a fist fight with either these guys but thats where Stokers whip range comes in as he can hide behind other units and pretend to do damage. So really is Blood Boil worth 20 extra points? Imho yes without doubt, however, there is tactics (long bomb charges/murder blobs) you just need the Stoker for. So objectively Priest is better but Stoker adds something unique that nobody else really does, or as well. Its often i can find room to squeeze a Stoker in but Priest would force me to make a hard choice. With all that said i fear any GHB 19 point increases, unless across the board things go down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth criminal Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 1 2 hours ago, jazman84 said: C&C please. Bloodreavers seem off. Do you plan to use them for sacrifice? I don't think you need a special unit for that, just ping anything near that's not very valuable. Isn't there a better use for 80pt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 @Smooth criminal I didn’t pick that fight. My Bloodreavers (10 of them) were camped on my home objective for the sole purpose of scoring. ONE Dwarf Hero (The Grimwrath Berzerker) charged into them by running across the board and survived 2 rounds of their attacks (46 in total, his 5+ FNP shrugged off so many potential wounds and hitting on 4’s wounding on 4’s is just terrible) and killed all 10 in a single round of fighting, then fighting again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmileB4uDieXD Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Does archaons command ability set off all command abilities or just the ones that stat they can be used in the hero phase Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaz Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 7 hours ago, Darksteve said: That's a fair point. I've only used them in conjunction with our buffs and Brass Despoilers. Yep! This is what I meant, sorry if I didn’t seem clear earlier! In boC, they are compared a LOT with Tzaangor disc Enlightened, and usually found wanting. Their 4+ to hit, their 2 attacks are actually huge drawbacks, and we actually solve it with killing frenzy AND attack buffs, allowing them to punch WAY above their weight class Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaz Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Ravinsild said: @Smooth criminal I didn’t pick that fight. My Bloodreavers (10 of them) were camped on my home objective for the sole purpose of scoring. ONE Dwarf Hero (The Grimwrath Berzerker) charged into them by running across the board and survived 2 rounds of their attacks (46 in total, his 5+ FNP shrugged off so many potential wounds and hitting on 4’s wounding on 4’s is just terrible) and killed all 10 in a single round of fighting, then fighting again. Let me explain: Its a Grimwrath Berserker. ‘Nuff said. He’s legitimately built for combat. He’s piling in and attacking twice, with effective 8 attacks at 3+ 3+ 2 rend and 2 damage. To put it simply, your reavers were gonna die no matter what in that scenario. in fact, your choice was correct: Against Blood warriors, the Berserker earns his keep easily, but against reavers ? His powerful attacks are wasted, you get Blood a Tithe, and he suffers opportunity cost because he can’t attack your stronger heroes and units. Hes also extremely durable. His 5+ FNP is very good. and remember: Reavers are NOT good for Damage, like @Mikeymajqsaid, I feel reavers DPS requires too much buffing to be good. What we do get, is a relatively cheap suicide unit that we can use for buff missile, or for screening. Blood warriors and letters imho respond far better to buffs, being more inherently durable and damaging. Reavers are a solid unit, being similar to ungors for beasts of Chaos. Sure, ungors are a teeny bit more tanks with shields, but reavers are meant to be a suicide screen, with decent damage, seriously that rend is great, and they contribute Blood Tithe. I love them for that reason. I’ve only got 20, but I’m looking to grab 5, and add garrek’s Reavers for another 10. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaz Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 3 hours ago, ChaosUndivided said: Im glad someone did math on this. I felt Stoker is just the better of the 2 buffs but there is a lot to unpack here. First the range difference. Stoker is buffing 10 man squads at best and only if you play him smart. Priest buff range is better but relies on a dice roll... Not dependable. Priest has an extra wound, maybe is better in combat? Realisticly you're not trying to get in a fist fight with either these guys but thats where Stokers whip range comes in as he can hide behind other units and pretend to do damage. So really is Blood Boil worth 20 extra points? Imho yes without doubt, however, there is tactics (long bomb charges/murder blobs) you just need the Stoker for. So objectively Priest is better but Stoker adds something unique that nobody else really does, or as well. Its often i can find room to squeeze a Stoker in but Priest would force me to make a hard choice. With all that said i fear any GHB 19 point increases, unless across the board things go down. To be extremely honest, I’m not too much a fan of killing frenzy anymore. The wholly within buff is a pain for me. Bloodstoker has excellent buffs imo, so I use my priest for other things. Blood sacrifice, whack my own priest (he can stab himself). It GIVES BLOOD TITHE, which can seriously surprise your opponent or give yourself a better reward. I’ve had success bringing a second priest with resanguinarion to keep him healthy. My first always has blood sacrifice Occasionally, I’ve used Magebane Hex for the second priest I bring To eat endless Spells, which has proven useful. Sometimes my second priest carries killingfrenzy, because my opponent can deep strike, so I keep a reaver bubble wrap, whack them with killing frenzy and use them to defend, they’ll die, but tjey’ll kill some stuff before going down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosUndivided Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 @Kaz Hmm thats interesting. I like the Blood Sacrifice + Resanguination combo... Never considered it because killing your own stuff with Sacrifice generates even more Blood Tithe but i could see how this could be good because instead of devoting units to Sacrifice your devoting 2x Prayers. I prefer Bronzed Flesh over all of them to help keep my behemoths in the fight and basically any other unit hammer or anvil can benifit from it meaning there is never a bad target in range. I use Blood Sacrifice probably more than Killing Frenzy because the Blood Tithe table is just so good. Especially when i know i wont get many BT throughout the match. But im usually looking to pull off Murderlust or Apocalyptic Frenzy as many times as possible and i have a tendency to go overboard and waste Blood Tithe when im using Sacrifice. I really like Resanguination on the Warshrine it can turn him into a tarpit for far longer than it should and if there is any Korgoraths or monsters nearby even better. I run a lot of list with 3 Priest (usually 2 Slaughter and 1 Warshrine) so Killing Frenzy usually makes it in there but its one of those things i don't count on... If i get it off then good but if not oh well doesnt change my plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoutenraku Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 Gentleman, I have a upcoming 1k point tournament. for C&C please. Allegiance: Khorne Realm: None Goretide Leaders x3 Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut - 160pts General Hew the foe Thronebreaker's Torc Bloodsecrator - 140pts Bloodstoker - 80pts Battleline x2 Bloodwarriors x5 - 100pts Goreaxe & fist Mighty Skullcrushers x6 - 360pts Bloodglaives Other x1 Warshrine - 160pts Blood Blessing: Killing Frenzy Total: 1000/1000 General Strat: Cannon Bloodwarriors for screen/tie up, aim to rush the army up and keep the enemy grounded in their territory. Warshrine and stoker to buff hit/wound for skullcrushers. The main force can get across the field fast and hit the opponent before they can react. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth criminal Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 Blood sacrifice does seem interesting. At worst it's a "get 1 CP" prayer in a CP hungry army, at best it gets you to a move/fight again faster which can be clutch. Also it's always on no matter how you position the priest. Other prayer give you more of what you already have, but only sacrifice provides new options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth criminal Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 1 hour ago, shoutenraku said: Gentleman, I have a upcoming 1k point tournament. for C&C please. 160pt for shrine can buy you a sleughterpriest with an axe judgement, think about that. Bronzed flesh is probably better for crushers and definitely better on a shrine (it already buffs hit). Generally I think you are too low unit and model count, opponent can just tarpit the crushers and you're suddenly out of punching options. I'd drop at least 1 hero and add 1 unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoutenraku Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Smooth criminal said: 160pt for shrine can buy you a sleughterpriest with an axe judgement, think about that. Bronzed flesh is probably better for crushers and definitely better on a shrine (it already buffs hit). Generally I think you are too low unit and model count, opponent can just tarpit the crushers and you're suddenly out of punching options. I'd drop at least 1 hero and add 1 unit. Thanks, Smooth Criminal. I was actually weighing between a warshrine and a slaughter priest and axe but decided to go with warshrine because of the movement as it matches the juggernauts and the lord. I intend to double buff crushers on hit bring it to 3+ rerollable and -1 rend to make sure it punches through hard. For hammers, I intend for the juggerlord to be my backup puncher. If you are to drop a hero which will you drop and which unit will you add? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chocolate Obturator Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 (edited) So I went to the second of a series of 8 tournaments across the year at my local gaming store. I viewed it as a good benchmark as the first was just before the new Tome and this one the first with the new Tome. Old Tome list was Gore Pilgrims, 10 fleshounds, 3 khorgraths, Wrath of Khorne and a BTIR with Ghyrstrike. New list I will post later as post is getting too long Both tournies had the same format with predefined realms and features , missions and secondary objectives of slay the general, line-breaker and a player chosen hidden agenda that had to be different each game. Its always well planned and has freebies given out during the course of the day for such things as rolling all ones for hits or first to slay the opponents general. First match I was drawn against Daughters of Khaine in realm of fire with feature being steam clouds and mission focal points. Morathi , Hag, Altar, big block of witch elves and 4 squads of snakes most of which were in a battalion that rebounded hits of 1's as mortal wounds. He set up 2 bow snakesunits on my left, 2 spear snake units on my right with everything else in the center. I set up fleshounds way out on my right but in range of my right hand objective, bloodreavers on my home objective and knights as far forward on the left but out of LOS. warriors screened the centre where all my heroes were. I went first to get into a better position in the centre and then in his turn he edged round terrain to get his units line of sight and some reavers and bloodwarriors died to shooting and spells. My second turn the dice gods smiled and I reached his Snakes with the BTIR and the Khorgraths and the Knights on the other flank, Knights tarpitted but lost 3 to mortal wounds from my own rolls. Khorgraths were close enough to drop the skullfiend command ability on them and both squads of snakes disappeared. He won priority Morathi had to pop as the banner of wrath had taken 3 wounds off her last turn. Bloodthirster died to Morathi and last of the warriors died to Witchelves but they in turn died to Khorgraths and the Knights killed the last remaining snakes to leave me in range of all his objectives bar one. I had enough Bloodtithe to bring a BTIR on and chased the Cauldron, Morathi and Hag until I cornered them with the Knights , allowing me to kill them all in the last turn and win on objectives. A great fun game against a good opponent. This left me at the top of the list , 2nd and 3rd were FEC and the other BOK player 4th playing four Bloodthirsters Second game was a perfect storm of mission, realmscape feature, and opponents army. It was artifact only heroes and wizards scoring with 6 on a run or 10 on a charge causing mortal wounds to you, against 4 Zombie dragons with three wizards. It was pointless trying for the win so went for secondaries and kill points. End of turn one I realised due to other reasons I really didn't want to play for another 2 hours so conceded for no score but was able to relax and watch the other games. Second BOK player also conceded turn two. There was a bonus to that last match as it meant I finally got a game against someone I had met many times at tournaments but never been drawn against ( to the point its become a standing joke that we never would) with his Nagash list block of 40 block skeletons, knights, necromancer, 2 morghasts and a few more skeletons along with the portal endless spell. Mission was battle for the pass which helped me a lot due to the short table edges. Long story short due to where the objectives were he had to bring Nagash into range of the Alter, Fleshounds, Bloodscrator and Slaughterpreists second turn. Each turn my bloodtithe just went on auto unbind but I did manage to dodge the hand of dust through the portal on Nagashs first turn. BTIR killed the Morghasts and carnage put some wounds on Nagash . Knights with brazen flesh charged his home objective held by the necromancer and the 40 skeletons and stayed there for four turns. His Knights charged the Khorgraths on the other flank holding an objective but after causing 15 wounds I got to fight back with the three survivors with command ability active which killed them all. Nagash finaly died to a six wound bloodboil when he rolled 4 ones and 2 twos for his invun. The resanguition Priest was invaluable healing the reflected mortal wounds throughout the match. What was funny several times the reroll successful spells attribute from the bloodscrator helped Nagash get his 9+ cast bonus to the point I nearly ran him out of range. Again a great fun game against a good opponent which gave me a second win. So despite only winning two I came 5th overall compared to 3rd with the old tome. Most of the players had been to both tournaments but this one had more entries so I came away with a good feeling about the new Tome. Edited April 23, 2019 by Chocolate Obturator 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chocolate Obturator Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 (edited) List for the above post Allegiance: Khorne - Slaughterhost: The Skullfiend Tribe LEADERS Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage (280) - General - Command Trait : Master Decapitator - Artefact : Crowncleaver Bloodsecrator (140) - Banner of Khorne (Artefact) : Banner of Wrath Slaughterpriest (100) - Blood Blessing : Bronzed Flesh Slaughterpriest (100) - Blood Blessing : Killing Frenzy Slaughterpriest (100) - Blood Blessing : Resanguination UNITS 5 x Blood Warriors (100) - Gorefists 10 x Bloodreavers (70) - Reaver Blades 10 x Flesh Hounds (200) 10 x Chaos Knights (320) - Ensorcelled Weapons 4 x Khorgoraths (400) BATTALIONS Gore Pilgrims (140) ENDLESS SPELLS Bleeding Icon (40) TOTAL: 1990/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 WOUNDS: 139 LEADERS: 5/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 2/2 ALLIES: 0/400 Edited April 22, 2019 by Chocolate Obturator 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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