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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

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The cannon change really really blows. Not because I liked the look  but from a competitive stand point it is a huge nerf. The thing about the cannons are that they fill a giant gap that the rest of th army has. They provided a some what fast, ranged threat and made your opponent come to you to do something about it. Now we lost that and the army really suffers from it.

I get people being happy that Khorne is more Khorne, but winning competitive games with Khorne is just as fun and it is a huge nerf. At least I only proxyed mine. I literally had plans to buy 3 this weekend, glad I waited, but still super salty.......

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People acting like the cannons are gone now xD

They can still be buffed to hit and be used as a threat at range, and still be decent at melee.  Sorry they're not the cheese you were hoping for. This is shaping up to be a pretty balanced book I think. :)

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I think they are dead.  But I'm talking about being salty as an ultra competitive player, not as the guy looking to sling some models around at the local store (both are fun).

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57 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

The cannon change really really blows. Not because I liked the look  but from a competitive stand point it is a huge nerf. The thing about the cannons are that they fill a giant gap that the rest of th army has. They provided a some what fast, ranged threat and made your opponent come to you to do something about it. Now we lost that and the army really suffers from it.

I get people being happy that Khorne is more Khorne, but winning competitive games with Khorne is just as fun and it is a huge nerf. At least I only proxyed mine. I literally had plans to buy 3 this weekend, glad I waited, but still super salty.......

I agree. The list I posted earlier seemed strong if I tweaked it a bit. I just didn't like the feel of it. I really didn't like the mongers just sunning themselves on the turf while the cannons shot twice.

However I do think it had potential to be very strong and I may actually be really getting cocatrices to pack into my army now.

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Posted (edited)

Mathhammer warning:

With the locus active you have about a 50/50 chance of hitting and wounding with each skull cannon shot. Assuming your opponent never makes a save, that gives them an average damage of about 1.75 per shot. You can increase the average damage to about 2.2 if you have a +1 to hit, but that's about it.

So the question is whether or not 140 points, plus whatever you've taken to trigger locus, is worth about 2 damage per turn at range. Sure, there's more to the  cannon than the gun, but having  that ranged attack is the big draw and the only unique thing with the model. Everything else it does can be done better by something else.  Personally I don't think it's worth the cost, but your mileage may vary. 

Edited by Grimrock
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16 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Mathhammer warning:

With the locus active you have about a 50/50 chance of hitting and wounding with each skull cannon shot. Assuming your opponent never makes a save, that gives them an average damage of about 1.75 per shot. You can increase the average damage to about 2.2 if you have a +1 to hit, but that's about it.

So the question is whether or not 140 points, plus whatever you've taken to trigger locus, is worth about 2 damage per turn at range. Sure, there's more to the  cannon than the gun, but having  that ranged attack is the big draw and the only unique thing with the model. Everything else it does can be done better by something else.  Personally I don't think it's worth the cost, but your mileage may vary. 

Yeah the math per point is pretty bad. If you do play them, you will need to be super aggro with them so you can get into combat. But the idea of using them as a ranged support unit is gone. They now need to get into combat to make the 420 points worth it.

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3 hours ago, Darksteve said:

I wonder why they walked back their claim after one of the rules designers claimed it was intentional. 

Because they wanted to sell at least some stock of the model and decided enough was enough I guess.
I'm not dissapointed at the change, I am dissapointed that this is the third Khorne book, where minor changes are made and some hat at GW manages to make a Warscroll mistake. 

It is what it is, guess we just thake a Bloodthirster into every list now, shooting away a small chaff screen isn't an option anymore. It does make you wonder though, why did we lose this many speed buffs then? 

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Lost speed because khorne is slow, slaanesh is fast bro. 

I personally think the designer absolutely intended for the mongers to affect all weapons.Like bone tentacles and fire breath and stuff. I think that maybe someone higher up on the team saw that the whole community pooped themselves at the chance of 2 shot cannons and killed it.  

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3 hours ago, Mikeymajq said:

People acting like the cannons are gone now xD

They can still be buffed to hit and be used as a threat at range, and still be decent at melee.  Sorry they're not the cheese you were hoping for. This is shaping up to be a pretty balanced book I think. :)

I'll try and be as thorough as I can be here. Before the faq you had a modelthat put out roughly 4.4 damage a turn per phase it got to shoot at 30" At 140 points that is in line with most other played artilleryand gave khorne an interesting tactical option. I would hardly call 4.4 damage "cheese", its not like it was a 72ish mortal wound turn 1 bloodletter bomb. Now its half that damage for the same cost, putting it outof line with other artillery in the game. This seemed to be a unnecessary nerf to a new playstyle.

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3 hours ago, Mayple said:

Hm. 

By using the battalion to it's full effect, you'd then be firing essentially 4 shots per cannon, right? I don't know how the wrathmonger buff worked for them, so there's the element of doubt. If my presumption is correct, then you're looking at 32 shots at 3+, 3+, -2, d6 damage every round, at range. Pretty much what qualifies as bonkers by my definition ;)

If that is not the case, then it's less so, and I agree, but you'd still be able to spam cannons that were then far superior to any other cannon in the game, while also being able to ignore the normal 4 maximum artillery limitation that normal cannons abide by. 

The key here is context. The cannons alone there are 1120 points, then you need at least a bloodthrone and at least 3 battleline plus whatever the battalion costs. 32 shots predicates that you get 8 skullcannons in combat every turn and suffer 0 losses between combats and then assuming average rolls you wind up with 64ish damage a turn from shooting from your whole army. Not bad, but not game breaking by any means. And thats assuming your opponent makes 0 saves. At 2.2 damage average per shot per cannon you really need to have that 2nd shot to be worth 140 ppm.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Darksteve said:

The key here is context. The cannons alone there are 1120 points, then you need at least a bloodthrone and at least 3 battleline plus whatever the battalion costs. 32 shots predicates that you get 8 skullcannons in combat every turn and suffer 0 losses between combats and then assuming average rolls you wind up with 64ish damage a turn from shooting from your whole army. Not bad, but not game breaking by any means. And thats assuming your opponent makes 0 saves. At 2.2 damage average per shot per cannon you really need to have that 2nd shot to be worth 140 ppm.

I'm with you, but I'll have to clarify:

"32 shots predicates that you get 8 skullcannons in combat every turn and suffer 0 losses between combats" -- We're talking about shooting here, not close combat. At 30" range you can shoot whatever the heck you feel like, and assuming your super tanky (for a cannon) cannons (at 7 wounds +4 save) don't get wiped out turn one to enemy shooting, which they really shouldn't, or get slapped into close combat, which you'd have plenty of opportunity to prevent with cheap bubblewrapping -- you'd be earning blood points back in droves. 64 damage a turn is a -lot- of damage to drop on just about any opponent. People get tabled by far less. The -2 rend doesn't hurt either.

Yes, you'd have to build your whole list around it, but some lists just build like that. Can't always have your cake and eat it too ;) Overwhelming firepower would absolutely make it worth it. The heavy cost doesn't invalidate suddently turning your close-combat focused army, which tends to be much better than other armies at just that, into one of the best gunlines in the game, which we've learned in the past doesn't lend itself well to great gameplay (the overwhelming gunline damage output, that is)

Not that it matters, since we're now looking at 16 shots at the most instead of 32, and that is a much less overwhelming sum ;) So purely talking hypothetically here. 

Edited by Mayple

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Q: Some abilities can be used when a model or unit has ‘fought for the first time’ to allow that unit to fight again. Does this only apply if the unit fought for the first time during the phase, or does it also apply if the unit fought for the first time at the start or end of the phase?

A: It always applies, even if the first time it fought was at the start or end of the phase. Note that if several abilities allow a unit to fight again after it has fought for the first time, each of those abilities must be carried out one after the other. This means that only the first of those abilities would qualify as happening after the unit has fought for the first time, because after the first of those abilities is used the unit will already have fought more than once. Therefore the remaining abilities could not be used.

 

So no Tyrants of Blood in Reapers of Vengeance? Can't both attack twice and with next Bloodthirster as I read it

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5 minutes ago, Silchas_Ruin said:

So no Tyrants of Blood in Reapers of Vengeance? Can't both attack twice and with next Bloodthirster as I read it

As far as my understanding goes, this was added so you cannot stack those activations more than once on one unit and clarify what counts has having fought.

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I'm a little bit confused forgive me... But does a model always fight for the "first time" in each new combat phase or am I expected to keep track of models that have fought at least once during the entire battle? 

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9 minutes ago, Reezark_SP said:

I'm a little bit confused forgive me... But does a model always fight for the "first time" in each new combat phase or am I expected to keep track of models that have fought at least once during the entire battle? 

For each combat phase.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/12/2019 at 5:13 PM, Reezark_SP said:

I'm a little bit confused forgive me... But does a model always fight for the "first time" in each new combat phase or am I expected to keep track of models that have fought at least once during the entire battle? 

Yeah, actually that was my biggest disappointment with the FAQ (which, don't get me wrong, I am glad to have). They could have addressed the "first time" vs "first time this combat phase" and didn't. Not well, anyway. They have made it sort of clear about "always applies" within a phase, but didn't touch on overall. It sure looks like yes, you will need to track your very first fight for each eligible model.

Incidentally, this makes my already flagging view of Bloodthirsters even less enthusiastic.  I've played against them once now and with them twice (not a huge sample size, I know), and I did not fear to play against them and my opponents shrugged off and/or killed them when I fielded them. They are really just so easy to kill, and their attacks are just so all-or-nothing.

I mean, I got the Rage Bloodthirster bumped up to 8 attacks and even then managed only one round of combat with it, inflicting six wound total before the game was over. Skarbrand has been killed rather simply twice now as well.

Then we have Bloodletters. You really do sort of need to start with 30 just to ensure you have 20 when fight time comes (if you are lucky), and moving that many models around individually is not only tedious, but difficult to make work on a table with any decent terrain.

I've tried two battalions so far, and neither were effective enough to justify their points at all.

Dunno. At this point, I'm losing steam for the army quickly. I do still like my 12 bloodcrushers and 15 flesh hounds, so maybe I'll just go all in on those for a few games and see if the fun can be found (though, man, there really needs to be a plastic (or even re-released metal) Skullmaster.

Lastly, I did just get a cannon as part of a start collecting. The "loss" of wrathmonger perks is no loss for me since I have zero intention to use wrathmongers. The bothersome part for me is the single shot. I'm just not the sort of player who puts faith in anything that makes a single shot. By the time you go all the way to the variable damage, you've just put too much trust into luck (I know, I know, no such thing as luck - agreed - but you take my meaning) for little chance at meaningful payoff. If there were some way to either guarantee a hit or to give them, say, three shots each, then I'd be inclined to overlook the dreadful appearance of the model and add a few more, but for now, I think I'll try my one cannon in the occasional basement game, but it won't make the cut to outside games.

Edited by Sleboda
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1 hour ago, Mayple said:

I'm with you, but I'll have to clarify:

"32 shots predicates that you get 8 skullcannons in combat every turn and suffer 0 losses between combats" -- We're talking about shooting here, not close combat. At 30" range you can shoot whatever the heck you feel like, and assuming your super tanky (for a cannon) cannons (at 7 wounds +4 save) don't get wiped out turn one to enemy shooting, which they really shouldn't, or get slapped into close combat, which you'd have plenty of opportunity to prevent with cheap bubblewrapping -- you'd be earning blood points back in droves. 64 damage a turn is a -lot- of damage to drop on just about any opponent. People get tabled by far less. The -2 rend doesn't hurt either.

Yes, you'd have to build your whole list around it, but some lists just build like that. Can't always have your cake and eat it too ;) Overwhelming firepower would absolutely make it worth it. The heavy cost doesn't invalidate suddently turning your close-combat focused army, which tends to be much better than other armies at just that, into one of the best gunlines in the game, which we've learned in the past doesn't lend itself well to great gameplay (the overwhelming gunline damage output, that is)

Not that it matters, since we're now looking at 16 shots at the most instead of 32, and that is a much less overwhelming sum ;) So purely talking hypothetically here. 

Sorry, but in order to get 32 shots with 8 skullcannons pre nerf you needed to be in close combat. 8 skullcannons at 2 shots a piece pre-nerf is 16 shots. 32 comes from shooting again in the combat phase after you killed a model. If you have 32 shots in the shooting phase you needed 16 skullcannons which is 2240 points alone.

Also khorne is argueably not really that good at cc compared to other armies like stormcast, daughters, etc.

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LOL 2 replies from my question one says its per combat phase the other says gonna have to keep track of what already fought for the entire battle. Glad the FAQ was so helpful hahaha.

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3 minutes ago, Darksteve said:

Sorry, but in order to get 32 shots with 8 skullcannons pre nerf you needed to be in close combat. 8 skullcannons at 2 shots a piece pre-nerf is 16 shots. 32 comes from shooting again in the combat phase after you killed a model. If you have 32 shots in the shooting phase you needed 16 skullcannons which is 2240 points alone.

There's the misunderstanding right there :)  I'm talking about using the battalion in coordination with the extra attacks, which I was unsure about how would work, because I don't know how exactly their extra attacks from the pre-nerf effect was worded. Counting the attacks by getting them into close combat is way too much of a wishful thinking, I agree. 

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49 minutes ago, Silchas_Ruin said:

Q: Some abilities can be used when a model or unit has ‘fought for the first time’ to allow that unit to fight again. Does this only apply if the unit fought for the first time during the phase, or does it also apply if the unit fought for the first time at the start or end of the phase?

A: It always applies, even if the first time it fought was at the start or end of the phase. Note that if several abilities allow a unit to fight again after it has fought for the first time, each of those abilities must be carried out one after the other. This means that only the first of those abilities would qualify as happening after the unit has fought for the first time, because after the first of those abilities is used the unit will already have fought more than once. Therefore the remaining abilities could not be used.

 

So no Tyrants of Blood in Reapers of Vengeance? Can't both attack twice and with next Bloodthirster as I read it

So I believe you can, but you have to order them in a very specific way. You have two abilities that let something happen after you first fight. 1 lets another BT fight and the other lets you fight again. If you let the next BT fight immediately then you will still qualify for the other fight again ability as you have not fought again before the ability is resolved, which is what they addressed.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Silchas_Ruin said:

Q: Some abilities can be used when a model or unit has ‘fought for the first time’ to allow that unit to fight again. Does this only apply if the unit fought for the first time during the phase, or does it also apply if the unit fought for the first time at the start or end of the phase?

A: It always applies, even if the first time it fought was at the start or end of the phase. Note that if several abilities allow a unit to fight again after it has fought for the first time, each of those abilities must be carried out one after the other. This means that only the first of those abilities would qualify as happening after the unit has fought for the first time, because after the first of those abilities is used the unit will already have fought more than once. Therefore the remaining abilities could not be used.

 

So no Tyrants of Blood in Reapers of Vengeance? Can't both attack twice and with next Bloodthirster as I read it

No this is not the conclusion to draw.

The Question references a single unit. Let’s make that clear. Then it asks if that unit has an ability that allows it to fight after it has fought the first time, does it matter if it fought for the first time at the start, during, or at the end of the combat phase. The answer to this is no it does not matter. 

Then in the Answer they elaborate. Again this references only a single unit.  If this unit has multiple abilities that let it fight again after it has fought the first time do you get to fight another time for each ability. So if a. Bloodthirster has two abilities had allowed it to fight again after the first time does it get to fight a second and a third time. And the answer is no, the BT only gets to fight twice. 

This Question and Answer does not have any application to the interaction between Tyrants of Blood and the CA Leave None Alive. 

The Tyrants ability lets BTs in the battalion fight for the first time after the first BT in the battalion has fought. 

The Command Ability from Reapers of Vengeance gives the ability to fight for a second time after the first time a Daemon unit has fought. 

The Q and A references a situation that does come up with this interaction.

Also these example clearly reference fighting in that specific turn’s combat phase not all prior combat phases.  

Edited by Easytyger
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Is there any real reason to take the Skullmaster (herald on juggernaut) over the throne herald? Same points, worse profile

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Posted (edited)

This book and this FAQ really, really highlight the need for consistency and clarity in the words used for rules.

Edited by Sleboda
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25 minutes ago, Kazimer said:

Is there any real reason to take the Skullmaster (herald on juggernaut) over the throne herald? Same points, worse profile

Bloodcrushers as battleline.

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Just now, Smooth criminal said:

Bloodcrushers as battleline.

Ah, forgot about that! A small boon, but still a thing.

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