AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Easytyger]

@Ravinsild nice write up about your Khorne on Khorne violence. 

Quick question. Where exactly did he place his Skull Altar? I don’t seem to have much trouble keeping my SPs within 8” of the altar at least for the first 2-3 turns? 

[Ravinsild]

2 hours ago, Easytyger said:

@Ravinsild nice write up about your Khorne on Khorne violence. 

Quick question. Where exactly did he place his Skull Altar? I don’t seem to have much trouble keeping my SPs within 8” of the altar at least for the first 2-3 turns? 

Well I mean I have pictures if you want me to post them cuz it's hard to describe

[Easytyger]

1 minute ago, Ravinsild said:

Well I mean I have pictures if you want me to post them cuz it's hard to describe

Oh yeah that would be cool. 

[Broken Netcode]

So I've been thinking (dangerous I know🤣), wheres the best place for our skull altar in all 3 deployment types?

 

Personally I like the "as close to the centre of the board as possible" route for all 3. Whats everyone else's opinions?

 

[Ravinsild]

1 hour ago, Easytyger said:

Oh yeah that would be cool. 

My plan was to go left and take center. He deployed right so I thought he would take far right and middle. He decided to go left as well  

[Agent of Chaos]

Had my first game with the new tome on the wknd.

1250 point game vs Dispossessed, playing Relocation Orb.

He had a Warden King, 2 x Runelords, 30 x Warriors, 20 x Ironbreakers, 20 x Thunderers & 3 x Aetherwings.

His basic game plan was for me to come to him and smash off his shields before the Thunderers deleted whatever they turned their attention to while the Aetherwings chased the objective.

He had the ability to teleport one unit with an Ancestral Axe but never used it.

 

I went for a trimmed down variation of the 2000 point chaos knight Skullfiend tribe list I posted a few pages back as I wanted to try some of those concepts out.

Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount with the Skullfiend Tribe Trait and Artifact

Bloodstoker, Aspiring Deathbringer & Slaughterpriest with Blood Sacrifice.

2 x 5 flesh hounds

5 x chaos knights with glaives

5 x skullreapers

5 x wrathmongers

10 x blood reavers

1 x Khorgorath

 

My opponent kindly let me proxy the skull altar with a similar sized terrain piece as I am awaiting my order.

The relocation orb player territories are very small so I was unable to push it into an advanced position meaning it was pretty much only good for rerolling blood sacrifice.

 

I don’t know if we played it right but the Relocation Orb rules don’t specify that the player who finishes deployment determines who goes first.

I was happy to let my opponent choose as he had less units but he insisted we roll off for it with him breaking ties.

I won the roll and gave him first turn however he said he would have taken it anyway as he wanted to get his shield walls and other buffs up ASAP so no harm done.

 

Apart from the Aetherwings taking the orb for 1VP nothing much happened as the Dwarves are slow and their guns were out of range.

My first concept was immediately tested as the priest sacrificed some reavers for a bloodtithe point which I immediately converted into a CP with blood tithe (both events occur at the start of the hero phase so I get to choose the order in which it happens).

The next concept was buffing the knights with the lord’s command ability and bloodstoker and charging them into the Ironbreakers.

As I expected his Runelord was close behind the unit for support and so the Skullfiend ability of rerolling hits of 1 when wholly within 12” of enemy heroes went off and the knights put a bunch of damage through.

Unfortunately the Ironbreakers ignore rend of -1, reroll their 4+ saves and were ignoring damage on 6’s so when the dust cleared I only killed 4.

Some lessons were learned however I’m still convinced the knights can do work, especially when in range of the bloodsecrator in a 2000 point gorepilgrims list and against a less resolute unit.

My flesh hounds charged the Aetherwings, leaving one with 1 wound and took back the objective for 3 VP while the land tank (Skullreapers, Wrathmongers + Deathbringer rumbled forward).

He used a CP to inspiring presence the iron breakers rather than risk it which I thought was an error.

 

The orb moved towards his side of the table before he won the roll off for turn 2.

He used his CP so his Warden King could get on his rock and let all Dwarves within 18” use his Bravery.

The surviving Aetherwing captured the orb again for 1VP while the warriors consolidated their position and kept up their shield wall.

The Ironbreakers were still in combat with the knights so in the shooting phase the thunderers turned my knights into a blood tithe point.

Trading 160 points of knights for 4 x Ironbreakers seemed harsh however they had kept the Dwarves pinned in their corner for 2 turns meaning I had a free run at the objective in my turn.

 

I failed blood sacrifice, even with the reroll, and so cashed in for another CP.

The flesh hounds ran around the left flank and the land tank rumbled forward with the bloodstoker repositioning so that he was wholly within range of the skullreapers for next turn.

The chaos lord killed the aetherwing and capped the objective for 3VP while the Khorgorath charged the ironbreakers, just tagging one end so I could continue pinning them in place.

Unfortunately he was out of range to use the Skullfiend command ability on him but still managed to kill 2 for no wounds in return.

 

Round 3 and the orb moved immediately behind the Ironbreakers and I advised my opponent, and Khorne himself, that I would really like a double turn here.

Khorne obliged J (who says Khorne doesn’t do prayers?)

This round was brutal and surely Khorne was pleased.

First I blood sacrificed for 1 blood tithe.

The Chaos Lord used his movement to skirt around the Ironbreakers and charged the Runelord behind but only did 2 wounds and took none in return however this meant the Dwarves would retain control of the objective.

Then the final concept I wanted to try came into play- the land tank was unleased; The skullreapers, whipped by the stoker and with bonus attacks from the deathbringer and wrathmongers charged and went absolutely nuts on the warriors.

I rolled up 11 mortal wounds and killed another 10 with regular attacks for 21 dead, taking only 2 wounds in return. The Warriors broke and ran for another bloodtithe point.

The flesh hounds charged into the thunderers and second runelord, taking him down to 1 wound.

The khorgorath killed 4 more Ironbreakers, taking a few wounds in return, and a few more Dwarves ran thanks to his bravery debuff and nearby sinister terrain.

 

Things looked grim for the Dwarves.

The Warden King got off his rock and charged the Skullreapers, the thunderers were forced to shoot and delete the flesh hounds that had charged them.

The reapers mortal wounded the king to death and the chaos lord finished off the runelord, giving me a bonus bloodtithe point thanks to the skullfiend command trait.

The khorgorath killed a few more Iron Breakers and the unit broke and ran with a poor battleshock roll.

I finished the round with 8 bloodtithe and the thunderers were out of range to cap the objective.

 

I won the roll off for round 4 and offered to call it there as I was up 6-2 on VP with a clear charge for my skullreapers, flesh hounds and chaos lord into the thunderers which would have tabled him.

It was a pretty convincing win over an admittedly non-battletome army however things would have been tougher without the double turn.

All of the concepts I had came into play and I really want to see what that chaos knight list can do in a 2000 point game.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Agent of Chaos

[phizzco]

1 hour ago, Ravinsild said:

My plan was to go left and take center. He deployed right so I thought he would take far right and middle. He decided to go left as well  

Man that board looks great

[MOMUS]

Wrathmongers? 

What are they good for? -absolutely nuffin!

but seriously, then have lots of attack and rend 1, not that hitty as only on 4s, so potential to fluff attacks is real. 1 mortal wound when they die, 5/6s to do d3 mortal wounds depending on opponent.

is it really worth it? Before they had a solid target and use, now they are just fodder. I'm not sure I would use them if it was a garentee d3 each.

 

People seem to be losing their minds about using this overcosted unit to shepherd around another over costed unit (skull cannon) and then pile on another unit (blood master) just to make the cannon worthwhile.

[Killax]

7 hours ago, Xasz said:

FEC and SCE double activation is a lot easier to pull off.

You got it backwards with the buffs, we have to go for self-sufficient units because Khorne buffs got weaker and/or buffing range is pretty unforgiving now. 

Huh I can't really agree with that at all, but I would love to know how you came to that conclusion really.

The way I see it, the double activation is easily there for Daemons, just go for the right host. Likewise I do not agree that buffing got weaker or the range being weaker. If anything we have acces to more buffs thanks to the hosts, the only thing that needs to be taken into consideration is the bubbles. Which isn't hard to do as you can pre-meassure all you want. I guess some need to get it into their system, but as someone who played Warmachine aswell it's an easy step to checking 16" from most of your characters.

Skipping on the buffs is a bad plan in general, as there is a massive reward to playing 2 Slaughterpriests and I wouldn't ever leave without thaking a Bloodsecrator unless I'm playing 3-4 Bloodthirsters who buff themselves. 

8 hours ago, Smooth criminal said:

While the previous book felt like it was about stacking buffs onto something to make it ultimate blender this one feels like it's about taking punchy things that are good on their own and just punch with them more often through the various double fight and pseudo double fight abilities.

Like why even buff reapers,  thirsters or crushers when they already do everything from allegiance+battalion alone? The only ones who scale well off buffs are the battleline dudes: warriors and letters.

If only we weren't so damn slow. Feels like either thirsters, goretide warriors or cannons+mongers are mandatory. Maybe use chaos knights?

It's still there though. We indeed got slower and we gained good ranged support. In short this is the only difference.

Don't be mad at including Slaughterpriests, Judgements of Khorne or Skullcannons, if you don't want to, you can include 3-4 Bloodthirsters instead.

[Biboune]

26 minutes ago, MOMUS said:

Wrathmongers? 

What are they good for? -absolutely nuffin!

but seriously, then have lots of attack and rend 1, not that hitty as only on 4s, so potential to fluff attacks is real. 1 mortal wound when they die, 5/6s to do d3 mortal wounds depending on opponent.

is it really worth it? Before they had a solid target and use, now they are just fodder. I'm not sure I would use them if it was a garentee d3 each.

 

People seem to be losing their minds about using this overcosted unit to shepherd around another over costed unit (skull cannon) and then pile on another unit (blood master) just to make the cannon worthwhile.

Well, they just cost 140 points for 5 models with 3 wounds each: it is less than 10 points for each wounds . They have +1 to hit when they charge, +1 attack with the bloodsecrator. Bloodletters are 10 points each, 1 attack, 2 with the bloodsecrator, 4 + to hit, 3+ as long as they are 20+ models. They can attack at 2" so behind bloodletters. They can boost BloodThirsters range attacks.

A Bloodsecrator is 140 points too, is buff affect all unit within 18" . The wrathmongers affect all units within 8" but they are 5 model on 40 mn bases, spread 1" for each others: you can make the buff radius larger than 8". And you can't stack bloodsecrator's buff, so warthmongers can act like  a second one: with more wounds, with less radius...

I think 30 bloodletters, one bloodsectrator, 5 wartwongers can be a good mix.

Skullcannons can try to snip things like skaven jezzails, or shoot at big units.  Skullcanons + warthmonger is not the best combo ever, but it can add some flexibility and variety in an army.

[ledha]

1 hour ago, MOMUS said:

Wrathmongers? 

What are they good for? -absolutely nuffin!

but seriously, then have lots of attack and rend 1, not that hitty as only on 4s, so potential to fluff attacks is real. 1 mortal wound when they die, 5/6s to do d3 mortal wounds depending on opponent.

is it really worth it? Before they had a solid target and use, now they are just fodder. I'm not sure I would use them if it was a garentee d3 each.

 

People seem to be losing their minds about using this overcosted unit to shepherd around another over costed unit (skull cannon) and then pile on another unit (blood master) just to make the cannon worthwhile.

Put simply, there isn't any 140 pts unit as good as them. Compare them to 10 stormvermin or 10 thralls, or 10 grimghast reapers, or 10 arrowboys, or 3 gore-gruntas for example.

+1 attack to units wholly within 8" is something any other army would love to have, even for 160 pts on a 5 wound heroes. Except those guys have 15 wounds, and launch, at base 21 attacks with rend and a 2" range. Sure, they have only 4+ to hit, but we are khorne, the army with so many bonus and reroll to hit that we don't know what to do with it . 

In goretide, with a bloodsecrator around, in charge, they make 26 attacks 3+/3+ (rr1)/-1/1. With a 2" range. That's absolutely ridiculous. It's rivalring evocators in the damage department (one of the most cost-effective unit of the game), while having an incredible support capacity alongside it.

Even without the +1 attack for friendly units, they would be a fine unit.

Plus aoe mortal wounds at death is very, very, very nasty. They have a better damage output than elites units like brutes or stormcast paladins but cost only 20 more points than freaking clanrats. I've used them many time and if the opponent can't immediatly deal with them, they make the army very hard to stop.

Edited April 8, 2019 by ledha

[medivouk]

Especially as the Wrathmongers can buff 2-3 units at once, and still fight in over the frontline. I plan on making a wrathmonger sandwich, with bloodletters to the front and skull cannons to the rear.

[Mikeymajq]

Wrathmongers look absolutley terrifying. And with Skarr Bloodwrath giving them No respite for a commans point they can really make someone pay for attacking them. It's too bad their battalion relies on a rather squishy leader. Because effectively doubling their attacks should blend almost anything into a fine mist

[Sleboda]

Bloodsecretor vs Tyrants of Blood (Also, skullcannons)

So, yeah.  Same points cost, but one seems more useful more times.

I played a game this weekend (one!) with the Tyrants.   Skarbrand, Rage, and Wrath. Skarbrand was never in combat and the other two were only in combat at the same time once. I felt like I was 140 points down most of the game.

Then I see the Bloodsecrator. Two attacks each on my Bloodletter horde?  Yes please!

So, opinions? Right now I am leaning toward dropping the Wrath Bloodthirster and the Tyrants, and adding the Bloodsecrator and some other stuff.

Is the Tyant thing really proving to be that big a deal for most people?

 

Also, at one shot each and variable damage, skullcannons seem very dicey. Yeah? I was thinking of picking up three, but the models are awful and their rules seem ... meh.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Sleboda

[Mikeymajq]

Skullcannons are meh. A bit better now since you can give them extra shots and rerolls. But 3 of them would be hellova costly and, I think, hard pressed to get their value back. Unless your rolls are hot I guess. 

[Warbossironteef]

Stupid question, but do multiple units of Wrathmongers stack? Is that part of the SkullCannon "tech"? I hate the Skull Cannon models so much but they seem like they feel a big void in Goretide lists.

[Zamik]

20 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

Stupid question, but do multiple units of Wrathmongers stack?

They don't. The Crimson Haze ability gives +1 attack to units wholly within ANY units with this ability.

[Battlefury]

Did you see the previous preview of Fyreslayer Battletome?

I would like to ask a question, that is really on my mind, now as I saw the Battletome review.
Please note, that my question is not meant to be offending, harsh, unnessecary negative or as a rant, but:

Is Khorne designed to loose?

Might it be, because they're concidered the "evil opponent of shiny golden boys", that they're actually designed that way?

#nooffend

Edited April 8, 2019 by Battlefury

[Broken Netcode]

10 minutes ago, Battlefury said:

Did you see the previous preview of Fyreslayer Battletome?

I would like to ask a question, that is really on my mind, now as I saw the Battletome review.
Please note, that my question is not meant to be offending, harsh, unnessecary negative or as a rant, but:

Is Khorne designed to loose?

Might it be, because they're concidered the "evil opponent of shiny golden boys", that they're actually designed that way?

#nooffend

Absolutely not in my opinion. We have a lot of tools including StD, its just about finding something that works.

 

Even if the book were designed to lose, thats a good thing! It makes us a challenging army to play and if you play it right, you become a stronger player in general.

[Zamik]

16 minutes ago, Battlefury said:

Is Khorne designed to loose?

 

I think that true to the lore, and the unlimited contempt and hatred of our beloved god, Khorne is an army of tremendous tactical depth that punishes failure harshly. Mistakes tend to cascade in a Khorne army, true.

As the "protagonists" of the main AoS narrative, Stormcasts have to be forgiving, easier to play, able to withstand small errors and recover from them.

[kahadin]

Finally got some games in with the new book!

I'm feeling like I have an idea on how to roll with mortals now, at least at the level l play. It looks like the mortal warscrolls are more consistent without buffs now. They don't really need them to be effective and I don't feel like they gain a huge amount for having them. 

For example my skull reapers did about the same with +1 to hit as they do with -1 to hit so long as they are fighting a 5+ unit. I know the math will tell you this is a lie, but it has been consistent for me over all the games I've played. 

Instead of the old buff heroes I really feel like blood boil is the new black. I really feel like every non slaughterpreist hero has to be a star to make up for not having blood boil. It feels like the only decent way to take out heros and monsters. Skullreapers suck at it because they lose their rerolls (in my games it seemed to cripple them) and nothing else seems that good at it. I brought along an exalted Db with spear and he is an ok duelist, but he is no blood boil. 

I used to like mixing in slaves to darkness, but besides maybe marauders they seem to lag behind blood boil and skull reapers.

Blood warriors still are meh for me and for me wrathmongers never seemed worth it. I could give a unit +1 attack, or I could just ha e a whole extra unit. The extra unit of skullreapers seemed better than +1 a in the games I played and it was not too hard to scrape up 40 points. 

I still take marauder horsemen to snatch objectives or screen for me, but I'm going to try to put together an "optimal" list of mainly priests and reapers and see how it goes. Also I have been using slaughterborn, and it rocks hard.

[Warbossironteef]

Has anyone, with the models, had a chance to play with 3 Skullcannons buffed up by Wrathmongers and Secator? It puts an even bigger target on the Secator's head (this is always the case) but the dice math with 9 shots from 3 Skullcannons is scary. Very scary. I hate these models so much but it seems like ranged/mobile  big "look at me threat" that a lot of mortal armies need.

[Nokrah]

7 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

Has anyone, with the models, had a chance to play with 3 Skullcannons buffed up by Wrathmongers and Secator? It puts an even bigger target on the Secator's head (this is always the case) but the dice math with 9 shots from 3 Skullcannons is scary. Very scary. I hate these models so much but it seems like ranged/mobile  big "look at me threat" that a lot of mortal armies need.

Hum, blood secrator indicates " Add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of melee weapons used by friendly KHORNEunits" contrary to wrathmongers

thus I don't think bloodsecrator provide a buff to skullcannon ranged attacks (only wrathmongers do)

[Darksteve]

20 minutes ago, Nokrah said:

Hum, blood secrator indicates " Add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of melee weapons used by friendly KHORNEunits" contrary to wrathmongers

thus I don't think bloodsecrator provide a buff to skullcannon ranged attacks (only wrathmongers do)

Correct. Currently the only way to buff the skullcannons number of ranged attacks in the army is wrathmongers. 

Editting to avoid double post.

Mathmatically, with the same buffs, 2x skullcannons at 280 points average ~30 damage against 5+ models compared to 30 Bloodletters at 300 averaging ~43 damage against the same.

Keep in mind cannons are much easier to buff and get in as well.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Darksteve

[kahadin]

I think you can hit the cannons with killing frenzy to hit on 2+. 

I feel lime more of a gunline army every day... Why not ally in some cocatrices while we are at it. 

What chaff do you think is best to protect our cannons and priests?

Edit: What do you think the wrathmongers do while standing still in the back line? Do they pose? Do they yell at the cannons?

Edited April 8, 2019 by kahadin