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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

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12 minutes ago, Draakur said:

Hmm ok, that’s not nearly as bad a verdict as I’d expected based on what I’ve read in here. Pretty cool to hear - cheers! :)  I guess time will tell whether they end up looking genuinely competitive 👍

I’d say just be open! Our army is not the most competitive, but I think we’ve Got a lot of hidden gems. 

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4 hours ago, Sigwarus said:

Someone asked for a tournament list. Here is my take on it

Unfettered Bloodthirster

General, strikes first item

Priest 

Priest 

BloodSecrator 

30 bloodletters 

10 blood reavers 

5 blood warriors 

6 blood chrushers 

3 skullcannons

5 wrathmongers 

Hexagorger 

Good against FEC meta with cannons, impacts. Blessings and 6" pile in. 

Im trying to make it an alcomers list. Suggestions? Critics? 

It’s interesting... although I’ve got some stuff to say, but my darn phone erased the stuff I wanted to write :( 

but heres a summary: 

I would take Reaper of Vengeance. Bloodlords is good, but I prefer with multiple bloodthirsters. Bloodthirsters make better use of the attack first artifact, and the unfettered fury is arguably weaker than the other 2 in combat. He’s more a support guy with utility abilities. I would replace him a Wrath of Khorne, carrying crimson crown. Free command abilities is excellent, especially because he can buff Cannons with it. In combat, he can use the reapers attack again ability. Furthermore, wrath of Khorne gets extra shots with his flail, thanks to mongers, which gets nuts really quickly. 

 remove Bloodcrushers and Bloodletters and Flesh Hounds. Id bring a LOT more warriors, and spread them out in front. Use them to ensure NO ONE can reach the Cannons. Bring large units of 20-30, and have a priest with Bronzed flesh to buff them. This is your anvil. Try to bring... maybe 5 more mongers? Spread them out behind the warriors, 3 inches behind. If anyone attacks the warriors, you smile, congratulate your opponent and pile in ALL your mongers in retaliation.

Bring some MSU reavers. I’d bring maybe 2 units. Keep them at the back, screen your butt against gavriel surecharge’s evocator party bus, or deepkin eel spam. Maybe a third of you need. No more than that. 

And definitely bring more Cannons. You want to leverage their sheer hitting power. 

Against alpha strike focused lists, you have the advantage. You can wipe out most of their army, before their alpha comes in. Against shooting lists, skull Cannons are decently durable (better in cover), and can actually shoot back. Their 2 rend makes them good against ballista, and they hit and wound easier, and can have better shots. They shoot better than Overlords, which is pretty funny. 

Against DoK, SHOOT THE CAULDRONS AND HAG WITCHES. Those are annoying to face. Hag witches can die relatively easily to your Cannons. Against LoN, I feel that you could actually try sniping enemy heroes, even Nagash might be scared of 4+ cannons shooting at the same time with a WoK Bloodthirster yelling at them to shoot straight. 

The other priest should bring Killing Frenzy. Secrator is good, keep him.

dont bring speedy units. Build up a heavy death brick that has teeth at range but refuses to die up close. I’d bring a banner of rage if possible, but might be hard since Crimson Crown is a must take for me imo. 

In terms of judgements, don’t use skulls. Too unreliable. Reapers is my preferred anti-magic, and I’d bring a wrath axe. Helps your guys survive longer. And while harder to summon, has more immediate impact. 

In terms of Battalions, don’t bring gorethunder. I’d honestly recommend even a Bloodforged would be interesting. Skullgrinder is meh, but he’s self sufficient little beatstick with good range, he can chill at the back with the mongers, and attacking twice with them gets really scary. Even gore Pilgrims is solid for the secrator. 

I’ll write a sample list. 

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Reapers of Vengeance

Wrath of Khorne (340)
General
Skullshard mantle

Bloodsecrator (140)

Slaughterpriest - Killing Frenzy(100)
Slaughterpriest - Bronzed Flesh(100)

3 Skull Cannons (420)

5 Wrathmongers (140) 
5 Wrathmongers (140)

20 Blood Warriors (400)
10 Bloodreavers (70)
10 Bloodreavers (70)

 80 points left. GAH BUILDING THIS LIST IS ANNOYING. I gave up on Battalions, because no matter what, this list is likely never going first. Also the must take artifact is really annoying. You’ve got 80 points left to play with. So you have a few options:

Skullgrinder- cheap beatstick

bleeding icon and hexgorger skulls- judgements for both priests to summon

command point - decent choice  since it’s super hard to fit in crimson crown

Bloodstoker- can buff your warriors reallywell

aspiring Deathbringer - Great Command ability, buffs ALL your mortals, great force multiplier

i’ll admit this list may not be very competitive now that I look at it again .____. But it looks plenty fun!! 

 

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@Kaz

I believe WOK's command ability specifies its used in the combat phase. Which means that only the shooting skull cannons do in that phase would be affected by it. Alternatively just drop a bloodmaster next to them. With killing frenzy they are 2+ rr 1s to hit. If you go back to Bloodlords they are 3+ rr1s to wound heros and monsters

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1 hour ago, Darksteve said:

@Kaz

I believe WOK's command ability specifies its used in the combat phase. Which means that only the shooting skull cannons do in that phase would be affected by it. Alternatively just drop a bloodmaster next to them. With killing frenzy they are 2+ rr 1s to hit. If you go back to Bloodlords they are 3+ rr1s to wound heros and monsters

OH NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! 

-Joseph Joestar

Dang, I forgot about that. My bad! Anyway, nevermind my list, I realized it wasn’t gonna work competitively. I’m still gonna try it just for beer and pretzels though, looks like it’ll be pretty dumb. 

Good point about Bloodlords. I’m just used to shooting cannons at normal units rather than heroes and monsters, since I felt the re-rol ones to hit seemed a bit wasted, but I think we’re onto something here...

To be seriously honest, I do feel that this book has some serious teeth. We just have to shed some old habits and play styles, that may not work like before, and be open to trying new, (possibly insane) things. There’s a ton of hilarious funny combos that can be achieved here, e.g. Tyrants of Blood with 3-4 Insensate Rages+battleshock bomb, I’m gonna proxy a bit to try seeing how fast I can explode someone’s army if they don’t have enough CPs XD  

I do feel Bloodstoker is really good now, since he’s still a superb cheap hero. It’s just that we have to get used to him basically hugging the unit he wants to buff. Also whipping heroes, then running them into position to buff sounds useful. 

 

In terms of Battalions, what do you guys think? I feel that while our bonuses are a little boring, I think GW is doing a good job of moving away from the old one-drop lists. And I like how we actually have options. 

In terms of Daemons, I do feel Blood Host and Charnel Host are good, with Murderhost once again being the best, while gorethunder Cohort actually feels like it might be worthwhile testing. Tyrants of Blood is imo another excellent battalion that would see a lot of use. 

Blood Hunt and Skullseeker Host are a bit niche, but I think they’re Not bad, since almost every army will have a lot of heroes in this Age of Inspiring Presence/Forward to Victory. Big guys with monster keyword are becoming slowly more commonplace, especially gits like VLoZd, etc. 

one thing that should NOT be forgotten is that for Blood Hunt, our wrath of khorne’s Ranged attack gets the buff, which makes him an incredible hero sniper, while skullseeker Host interests me... we can re roll ALL wound rolls, so we can fish even better for  MWs for our Insensate Rage

and both Battalions benefit Bloodcrushers nicely due to the fact that the battalion buffs our jugggernaut attacks too, which is very nice... 

for mortals, I do feel all our Battalions seem solid. Yes, even those relying on a hero. 

Slaughterborn and bloodmad are definitely the best due to their sheer versatility, Gore Pilgrims is still great, helps to solve bloodserator’s biggest problem.  I tried both and they seem incredibly good. Slaughterborn also helps our blood Warriors actually tank alpha strikes quite well, like Morsarr Guard and evocators (it’s just mortal wounds that still hurt though...) 

and for running Skullreapers, I personally prefer Bloodmad to skulltake, because i feel extra attacks allows you to fish for MWs, since skulltake is kinda relying on your no-rend attacks to carry you (of course skulltake is amazing with lots of khorgies)

Bloodforged and Skulltake are good, although i’ll admit I’m not a fan of dark feast due to how squishy reavers are.  

Blth Bloodcrysher and Skullcrushers Battalions might be useful... I haven’t actually tried them tbh

 

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22 hours ago, Agent of Chaos said:

Cheers@Killax

Its def a casual to semi-competitive list with a lot of unknowns on how it might perform. Ill be sure to put up some notes/findings on here once Ive had the chance to run it.

I can definitely see a 3rd thirster and a Tyrants list in the future but before I buy any more I want to understand the new way to play.

What Im struggling with at the moment is coming up with viable mortal/daemon mixed lists like I have in the past as there just doesnt seem to be as much interplay between the two as there was. Hence the above almost all daemon list and the all mortal chaos knight list I posted a few pages back. The wrathmonger/skull cannon combo looks decent but I only have 1 cannon which feels hard to justify the wrathmonger engineers/babysitters when there are so many other things to buff.

Are you looking at mixed lists or going down the mono path?

Cheers! Well there are many routes to go this time, much more as before in my opinion. Usually the routes I´d say are the most effective are either focused on Bloodthirsters (hammer), Bloodletters (hammer), Slaughterpriests + Khorne Judgements (support), Blood Warriors (anvil), Skullreapers (hammer), Skullcrusher (anvil) and things with Wrathmongers (support), including the Wrathmonger and Skullcannon combo. 
Most of the time an army will include two of the above mentioned strong units or more, depending how deep you want to go.

Personally I'd say there is much more interplay as before, as certain hosts certainly focus on buffing Mortals or Daemons but the Heroes who gain the Command Abilities don't need to be Mortal or Daemon ******. So the best advice I have for focussing on a host is to focus on one of the above mentioned units and create a synergy army for them to make it all work out. 

I am still looking at mixed lists very much, the only downside I see in Daemon heavy armies is that their Battalions arn't that great by Mortal Battalion comparison. The massive big fat exception there is Tyrants of Blood which is amazing.

As a rule of tumb I'd say try to follow these steps and you will be good:
HOST
- Focus on what units you like. To me there are basically 2 fantastic routes to go. Double time with Daemons or Fast Blood Warriors

LEADERS
- Include 2+ Slaughterpriests, you can always consider Khorne Judgements but I wouldn't say they are mandatory, unless your army is heavier Anvil focused
- Include  Bloodsecrator and support hero of your choice
- Consider Skarr or Valkia if you suddenly find room for it
OR
- Include 3+ Bloodthirsters and go wild with Tyrants of Blood

BATTLELINE
- Include 2x 10 Blood Warriors with Gorefists if you want to go a Mortal route
- Include 1x 30 Bloodletters and likely a unit or 2x 5 Fleshhounds if you want to go a Daemon route
- Bloodreavers can be a mandatory Battalion requirement, I'd focus as less as possible point on them
- Consider Marauders if you want a cheap Battleline filler

OTHER
- So much options here that you can really see the above list to know what to focus upon. Generally speaking I'd say Khorne Judgements are better with Anvil focused armies. Bound to get stuck into things and bound to see more profits from things like the Wrathaxe
- Consider a Soulgrinder if you want to have fun with Wrathmongers

Hope this helps, again many ways to go, much more as the old, Gore Pilgrims OR Murderhost. 

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16 hours ago, Xasz said:

I think that's what most of the last 50 (?) pages boil down to, the book is really great with all the clean-ups and new stuff for casual and probably even semi-competitive players, while being downright depressing for the competitive crowd.

 

I'm probably blind, where does it say that all heroes get this?

Guys... how many of us have played the new book in a Tournament? How many people have actually tried out all the new battalions and combos in a "competitive" setting? I would try not to say things like this because we just don't know. 

For example, no one is talking about Bloodforged. I feel like it could be very powerful. Wrathmongers are cheap and have 2 inch range, making it easier to get 10 guys into combat. 10 guys attacking twice? yes please. I also think a buffed up unit of 10-15 Bloodwarriors in Goretide is very competitive. Khorne lacks movement, but with a bloodstoker and Goretide, woooaahh momma. Also, how many people have played with a Goretide Chaos Lord? With Demionsal Blade he hits super hard, is cheaper than a BT, faster than a BT, and his main weapons don't degrade with damage. 

I'm not saying I'm right, because I dont have all the below models to test, but my point is, keep the faith brothers. Keep trying things and don't make big sweeping judgements that others might take the wrong way. I think something like the below could have a lot of potential. 

*Goretide*

Chaos Lord on Manticore (250)
- Flail & Lance
Slaughterpriest (100)
Slaughterpriest (100)
Skullgrinder (80)
Bloodstoker (80)

15 x Blood Warriors (300)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Reaver Blades
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Reaver Blades
10 x Wrathmongers (280)
5 x Wrathmongers (140)
10 x Skullreapers (360)

Bloodforged (120)
TOTAL: 1950/2000

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So I’m curious - of the Bloodthunder Stampede, Brass Stampede and Blood Hunt, what looks like it might be the most useful/viable battalion to build around right now would we say?

Edited by Draakur
Mistyped

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1 hour ago, Warbossironteef said:

 

Guys... how many of us have played the new book in a Tournament? How many people have actually tried out all the new battalions and combos in a "competitive" setting? I would try not to say things like this because we just don't know. 

For example, no one is talking about Bloodforged. I feel like it could be very powerful. Wrathmongers are cheap and have 2 inch range, making it easier to get 10 guys into combat. 10 guys attacking twice? yes please. I also think a buffed up unit of 10-15 Bloodwarriors in Goretide is very competitive. Khorne lacks movement, but with a bloodstoker and Goretide, woooaahh momma. Also, how many people have played with a Goretide Chaos Lord? With Demionsal Blade he hits super hard, is cheaper than a BT, faster than a BT, and his main weapons don't degrade with damage. 

I'm not saying I'm right, because I dont have all the below models to test, but my point is, keep the faith brothers. Keep trying things and don't make big sweeping judgements that others might take the wrong way. I think something like the below could have a lot of potential.

Speaking for me, I don't to discourage anyone to actually play the style they wish to.
I have tested it in competetive environment playing against payers with their tournament lists.

That's where my impression comes from ;)

Combos with Marauder Horsemen, Chaos Lord on Manticore, etc might be powerfull, but the book itself should be designed in a way, that it can provide viable lists on its own.
And imo it fails there in some ways. The minority of the battalions is really good, 2 of the Slaughterhosts are neat. But it lacks of actual potential to have units, that can withstand, or even deal damage to the enemy, exept for some really few units, tbh.

If we now say, we shall always buff the units needed, it will cause a dilemma:

Only one or really few units can have buffs and therefore perform very good. When buffed, the're good, no doubt.
Otherwise the other units are not buffed then, and will crumble. Also we have to always use a lot of heros to have our army buffed.

Than will take points, that could have been used for more units.

I don't really see a chance beside Tyrants to have lists with very few heros, such as different other armies can easily create.

 

Edited by Battlefury

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19 hours ago, Battlefury said:

I agree with you 100%.

The thing is, that beside Tyrants of Blood, wich is a one hit wonder list, there is barely anything that will be viable for tournaments. I am absolutely into tournaments, that's how I do the hobby entirely.

does anyone maybe have an idea for viable lists beside Tyrants? I am afraid, that even that list might be not competetive anymore, as soon as the enemy knows, what that list does. And since it is pretty much the same in its core each time, it would be easy of other players to just figure out how to deal with it.

Seraphon just went 5-0 at Adepticon, so the non-top tier armies can still win. I'm not saying you can't say it's underpowered, but saying things like it's  being downright depressing for the competitive crowd is just such a strong sweeping judgement that seems inaccurate.

I think the issue is, other than Tyrants, there is no "OP" combo that is easy to pull off and jumps off the page, which I think contributes to people thinking the book is weak. It's easy to look at something like Eel spam and Nagash and feel like you can't compete, but there are a lot of other ways to play and I think the army still has strengths. 

Also, I would argue, for their points, Wrathmongers and Skullreapers in Goretide do dmg and are pretty self-sufficient. This frees you up to buff up your Bloodwarrior block with your Priests and Stoker. That's not too unreasonable.

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So with the tyrants of blood list, there's the core of 1340 points of skarbrand, WoK, IR, +2 slaughterpriests. From there, what support and battleline options are the best?

It will depend on the host chosen obviously as the reapers of vengeance rely far more on the hammer of the bloodthirsters without needing to worry about supporting them. Bloodlords need the bloodthirsters to be supported a little more, but it's easier to support say with a secrator because of the +4 move.

You'll probably want to run flesh hounds to give them the locus buffs but blood warriors may be just as good in larger squads.

Now is the more difficult question of the toss up between bloodsecrator wrathmongers big battleline units and judgements. So let's say you bring 2x5 flesh hounds (or 2x5 blood warriors), that puts you up to 1540. Now there's 460 points left that needs another battleline squad in it. Plus support, with a single hero slot left. So: wrathmongers? Secrator? Big blob of battleline or a small squad to do some superficial screening?

Thoughts?

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49 minutes ago, fwlr said:

So with the tyrants of blood list, there's the core of 1340 points of skarbrand, WoK, IR, +2 slaughterpriests. From there, what support and battleline options are the best?

It will depend on the host chosen obviously as the reapers of vengeance rely far more on the hammer of the bloodthirsters without needing to worry about supporting them. Bloodlords need the bloodthirsters to be supported a little more, but it's easier to support say with a secrator because of the +4 move.

You'll probably want to run flesh hounds to give them the locus buffs but blood warriors may be just as good in larger squads.

Now is the more difficult question of the toss up between bloodsecrator wrathmongers big battleline units and judgements. So let's say you bring 2x5 flesh hounds (or 2x5 blood warriors), that puts you up to 1540. Now there's 460 points left that needs another battleline squad in it. Plus support, with a single hero slot left. So: wrathmongers? Secrator? Big blob of battleline or a small squad to do some superficial screening?

Thoughts?

They are more expensive, and not battleline, but Skullreapers are one of the most self-sufficient units we have. Rerolls built in and fearless. They also mow through chaff.  You will want some chaff of your own, so the cheapest is Reavers.  I do think Reapers, althought slow, can fit the bill because they will be on that objective to the very last wound. 

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Surely if you take skullreapers you will just want wrathmongers instead because of how good they can buff up the thirsters?

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13 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

Guys... how many of us have played the new book in a Tournament? How many people have actually tried out all the new battalions and combos in a "competitive" setting? I would try not to say things like this because we just don't know. 

No, but if you play against other competitive players and/or strong lists you get an understanding for what an army has to bring to the table to compete (in that exact setting).

A concept that is often forgotten in tabletops and the primary motivation in card games when building a list/deck is having a win condition. Murderhost won through getting into combat and killing stuff, Tyrants of blood will do something similar but more combo'ish. Other armies win through killing all enemy key pieces, having more or bigger units to score, having recursive units/creatures and/or win through a war of attrition, high density of mortal wounds... if your army does not have any (realistic) win cons, you are gonna have a bad time (against strong lists/players).

Another thing, when there is talk about tournaments and being "in the meta", it is a lot about consistency, i.e. how likely will you achieve your win con and therefore win a tournament or a game. Many lists are capable of winning a tournament, especially thanks to swiss, but how often or how likely is it to occur in consideration of other armies and time? That's why I always have to smile when I see the list from CanCon reposted, with the statement that Khorne can win major tournaments... not ****** Sherlock, that was to be expected at some point but it didn't happen a long time before that and hasn't happened after that (not to mention that the player seemingly played exclusively Khorne and damn do I applaud is showing and commitment!).

Concerning your list, thought about something similar when the book came out. Bloodforged puts too much focus on a single 5 wound model for my tastes, therefore it is very likely to be inconsistent in what it wants to do. I think Bloodforged is a trap and the concept might be better off with another battalion or none. Furthermore, I'm not convinced that Wrathmongers can really work in carrying a list, they die rather fast and are susceptible against shooting especially. Although, you present a good amount of (slow) threats... it's a potent list but that can be said for many.

That being said, no one should be discouraged by the ramblings of some random internet people. Play what you like or what you have, it rarely matters as long as you having fun. Tournament/competitive play is something rather specific, not for everyone and certainly not the holy grail.

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Don't flame me for asking this as its almost certainly be asked and answered already but I'm poor at searching! 

Has the community reached an answer to the Tyrants of Blood Battalion ability and the Leave None Alive command ability? If I had 3 Bloodthirsters who have just successfully charged the enemy, how many additional Bloodthirster models would attack after the first and before the enemy gets to retaliate?

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1 hour ago, Xasz said:

No, but if you play against other competitive players and/or strong lists you get an understanding for what an army has to bring to the table to compete (in that exact setting).

A concept that is often forgotten in tabletops and the primary motivation in card games when building a list/deck is having a win condition. Murderhost won through getting into combat and killing stuff, Tyrants of blood will do something similar but more combo'ish. Other armies win through killing all enemy key pieces, having more or bigger units to score, having recursive units/creatures and/or win through a war of attrition, high density of mortal wounds... if your army does not have any (realistic) win cons, you are gonna have a bad time (against strong lists/players).

Another thing, when there is talk about tournaments and being "in the meta", it is a lot about consistency, i.e. how likely will you achieve your win con and therefore win a tournament or a game. Many lists are capable of winning a tournament, especially thanks to swiss, but how often or how likely is it to occur in consideration of other armies and time? That's why I always have to smile when I see the list from CanCon reposted, with the statement that Khorne can win major tournaments... not ****** Sherlock, that was to be expected at some point but it didn't happen a long time before that and hasn't happened after that (not to mention that the player seemingly played exclusively Khorne and damn do I applaud is showing and commitment!).

Concerning your list, thought about something similar when the book came out. Bloodforged puts too much focus on a single 5 wound model for my tastes, therefore it is very likely to be inconsistent in what it wants to do. I think Bloodforged is a trap and the concept might be better off with another battalion or none. Furthermore, I'm not convinced that Wrathmongers can really work in carrying a list, they die rather fast and are susceptible against shooting especially. Although, you present a good amount of (slow) threats... it's a potent list but that can be said for many.

That being said, no one should be discouraged by the ramblings of some random internet people. Play what you like or what you have, it rarely matters as long as you having fun. Tournament/competitive play is something rather specific, not for everyone and certainly not the holy grail.

I'm not arguing that Khorne is super top tier, I was just pointing out to people who think they can’t be "competitive" that they can be. But no sh** Sherlock lol. I also don't get your point about the CanCon list? I don't think anyone would say look, Khorne has the best list ever! I think the point is to say that Khorne is good enough to win, even in the literal most competitive tournaments out there.  

I think you are assuming I'm arguing that Khorne is super good, I'm just arguing they aren’t bad like everyone keeps harping on. 

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1 hour ago, fwlr said:

Surely if you take skullreapers you will just want wrathmongers instead because of how good they can buff up the thirsters?

It would be hard to keep the Wrathmongers with the BTs. Good on paper, but hard to pull off. 

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1 minute ago, Warbossironteef said:

I'm not arguing that Khorne is super top tier, I was just pointing out to people who think they can’t be "competitive" that they can be. But no sh** Sherlock lol. I also don't get your point about the CanCon list? I don't think anyone would say look, Khorne has the best list ever! I think the point is to say that Khorne is good enough to win, even in the literal most competitive tournaments out there.  

I think you are assuming I'm arguing that Khorne is super good, I'm just arguing they aren’t bad like everyone keeps harping on. 

It's the internet, there is only "good" (top tier) and "bad" (not top tier), middle ground has never been found. :D 

I think you are reading too much into comments and other peoples views.

As a reminder, I am not attacking you or anyone  personally. In the end, everyone is entitled to his own opinion.

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3 hours ago, Xasz said:

It's the internet, there is only "good" (top tier) and "bad" (not top tier), middle ground has never been found

Ha! Indeed.

Maybe a step further: on the internet there is only

UberOTKOnlyTheBestObviouslyDuh

and

GoHomeNoobLoserYourChoiceSux

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I'd like to agree, that the book itself is pretty ok.

My perspective comes from the competetive point of view.
For free play and narrative games the book offers a lot of good possibilities I guess. That's not what I am playing, but I get, that people will enjoy it, and thats absolutely nice!

I would like to point out, that Skaven made it to 2nd place at Adepticon. Those placements should not be an accurate measurement, because it always depends on the list we gonna face. But it was interesting to see, that Skaven went from barely playable to competetively relevant with the new book. So did the FEC, as the Best list in their alliance. So those books where particularly good designed, if people would like to play competetive games.

In Chaos, and that might only my opinion, Khorne will not be that good. There will for sure be people, that get good results, that's good! But in the long term it will become a little redundant, just as the old book did. Why is that?
@Xaszpointed it out pretty good.

The issues are, that there are just too many inconsitencies, that will be an issue within competetive environment.
Battalions are mostly not that good to use, in terms of what they offer. Or what they offer is not that big of a deal, tbh.
A lot of units are not reliable, such as Wrathmongers and the cannons. As we pointed out, Reavers are kind of useless. Blood Warriors might be good, but they're always few to chaff units or camp objectives. Therefore they're ok.

Biggest issue, imo are just some points, that maybe not everyone can comprehend.
The army is toooooo restricted in the one thing it really needed, and that's movement. Run & Charge one unit at a time is ok, but not enough to bring the deals.
Buffs can not reliantly come up to units needed. I especially mean the Priests. Within lists, that will use judgements, they will stay at the altar. The more the army moves away within the game, the less buffs will be available.
Random Damage is a dealbreaker, imo. Bloodthirsters are cool beasticks, but unreliable due to that D6 damage characteristic.

As long as people like to play the army normally, for having a nice game with friends, it is absolutely ok! A Thirster engaging twice and just dealing one damage each time he hit the enemy will be amssively fun in those games, that's for sure. But it will not in tournaments.

That's what @Xaszmeant, when he saied:

5 hours ago, Xasz said:

Another thing, when there is talk about tournaments and being "in the meta", it is a lot about consistency, i.e. how likely will you achieve your win con and therefore win a tournament or a game. Many lists are capable of winning a tournament, especially thanks to swiss, but how often or how likely is it to occur in consideration of other armies and time? That's why I always have to smile when I see the list from CanCon reposted, with the statement that Khorne can win major tournaments... not ****** Sherlock, that was to be expected at some point but it didn't happen a long time before that and hasn't happened after that (not to mention that the player seemingly played exclusively Khorne and damn do I applaud is showing and commitment!).

The consistency is, what makes an army competetive.
We could argue, that GW maybe hasn't't intend the Battletomes to be for tournaments. But they support Adepticon & other grant tournaments themselves.

Actually I see just a little few combos, that are playable in the manner to actually grant a victory. Whether to use judgements...I am not sure. They're just random damage value again. To roll after each round to see if those stay is another random factor.

But maybe, even us competetive "freaks" can find ways in the book ;)

So alao, when I appear to be a pretty arging character, I don't want to further discourgae anyone, or offend anyone. When I ramble, I am pretty mich just offending GW for poor business practice ;)

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On 4/3/2019 at 10:49 PM, Battlefury said:

does anyone maybe have an idea for viable lists beside Tyrants? I am afraid, that even that list might be not competetive anymore, as soon as the enemy knows, what that list does. And since it is pretty much the same in its core each time, it would be easy of other players to just figure out how to deal with it.

I'm pretty sure anything demons is competitive.  Double fight for CP is just that good.

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To be honest my friends, I do agree that our army isn’t incredibly competitive. Buff stacking is difficult to achieve, especially with wholly within buffs. 

And like @Xasz said, we don’t have a proper win condition. Other than kill stuff. We can’t Alpha Strike like Deepkin. We can’t play objectives like Seeaphon. We don’t have the replenishment of LoN, or the sheer ridiculous cheese that can be doK (basically do our job better, but with magic, seriously GW...) . All we can do, is deny magic pretty well, pray for things to happen, and stack buffs in the right situation.

The first thing that jumps out at me is mobility. Beasts of chaos are very bad at killing at stuff, but I’ve seen players win on objectives alone. Idoneth has insane mobility, same with Nighthaunt. We’re slow. Extremely so. Unless we leverage Goretide and Murderhost, which I do feel helps a bit. 

Our reliance on our heroes is another problem: In every game there’s gonna be someone who’s gonna snipe them. 3 Celestars to the face, the usual. You rarely get the chance to get the full potential of your characters. 

At least we (hopefully) won’t get hated as much as before. For some reason, whenever I see a reddit or thread about Khorne, I see a LOT of people pissing on his name, and the Bloodbound, with lots of unflattering names, ESPECIALLY when we got a new battletome. 

At the end of the day, it sucks for us, and I do admit that we’ll likely to be below the other chaos gods, especially our greatest rival Slaanesh... 

HOWEVER, I’m still sticking with this army. Khorne has always resonated with me on a very personal level, and I’m not gonna sell my boys just cuz the dark prince got some shiny new toys. I stay loyal to Khorne, as I’ve always had all these years. 

As such, i’ll Admit much of my optimism earlier in this thread was idealistic and misleading, because I generally came up with a LOT of really dumb ideas that sounded great in theory, but were pretty bad in practice. 

Im just gonna keep testing, and i’m Gonna basically just play tournaments. I’m basically just gonna throw enough poop at the wall until it finally sticks. 

I’ll just keep trying to make this book work.

If this book doesn’t work, i’ll Make it work. 

Blood For The Blood God, brothers. At least even if we fail and die horribly, we know the Khorne welcomes our blood too... and hopefully in every loss, we’ll learn from it and have a fun time even when losing. 

Edited by Kaz
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12 minutes ago, Kaz said:

To be honest my friends, I do agree that our army isn’t incredibly competitive. Buff stacking is difficult to achieve, especially with wholly within buffs. 

And like @Xasz said, we don’t have a proper win condition. Other than kill stuff. We can’t Alpha Strike like Deepkin. We can’t play objectives like Seeaphon. We don’t have the replenishment of LoN, or the sheer ridiculous cheese that can be doK (basically do our job better, but with magic, seriously GW...) . All we can do, is deny magic pretty well, pray for things to happen, and stack buffs in the right situation.

The first thing that jumps out at me is mobility. Beasts of chaos are very bad at killing at stuff, but I’ve seen players win on objectives alone. Idoneth has insane mobility, same with Nighthaunt. We’re slow. Extremely so. Unless we leverage Goretide and Murderhost, which I do feel helps a bit. 

Our reliance on our heroes is another problem: In every game there’s gonna be someone who’s gonna snipe them. 3 Celestars to the face, the usual. You rarely get the chance to get the full potential of your characters. 

At least we (hopefully) won’t get hated as much as before. For some reason, whenever I see a reddit or thread about Khorne, I see a LOT of people pissing on his name, and the Bloodbound, with lots of unflattering names, ESPECIALLY when we got a new battletome. 

At the end of the day, it sucks for us, and I do admit that we’ll likely to be below the other chaos gods, especially our greatest rival Slaanesh... 

HOWEVER, I’m still sticking with this army. Khorne has always resonated with me on a very personal level, and I’m not gonna sell my boys just cuz the dark prince got some shiny new toys. I stay loyal to Khorne, as I’ve always had all these years. 

Im glad youre sticking with the best god! Solidarity through bloodshed and all ;)

One thing we all have to remember is the more we all play with our armies, the better we will become at playing khorne in general. After about 3 months of play eventually youll understand what tactics you can use in game to mitigate weaknesses from the book.

 

Overall, from a semi-competitive standpoint, I feel the tome is exactly where it needs to be. Nothing is blatantly overpowered and nothing is totally bad (except reavers... those can just go in the bin in my opinion XD). With enough hard work we can make our enemies tremble for this is our path of skulls!

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Anyone else experience the long period of the site being down?

I haven't been able to get on for days, just had 'community not available'

Most of the posts on this page are from Thursday, and considering how active this thread has been recently I assume lots of others got it too.

I've missed this forum😝

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So now that we're back on! If anyone's got the time to read this, I've got two games tomorrow against Beastmen and Death (Arkhan, Zombie Dragon, Skeletons), using a Skullfiend Tribe mortals list. Any advice you can give me against these armies will be much appreciated. 

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