AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[ChaosUndivided]

Archaon + Aspiring and Exhalted dbags might work well.

[Reuben Parker]

19 minutes ago, ChaosUndivided said:

Archaon + Aspiring and Exhalted dbags might work well.

But their CA are no longer in the hero phase so not much synergy. As I was noting you only take him in the new book for double pile in (which probably won’t be worth 660 points but will be fun to play). Also some nice combo between him adding 2 to enemy battle shock then causing d3 extra to flee with reapers. 

Archaon

skarbrand 

2 priest

bloodsecrator

stoker

will probably be the 6 heroes for me with Archaon play

[Luke1705]

I love Archaon to death but generally speaking he’s just not worth it unless you have a lot of command abilities you can use his to save CP on.

Skarbrand and friends sounds like a great proposition for reapers of vengeance though

[Xasz]

6 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:

Skarbrand and friends sounds like a great proposition for reapers of vengeance though

A 8" ability is too awkward for my tastes.

Edited March 19, 2019 by Xasz

[ChaosUndivided]

14 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

But their CA are no longer in the hero phase so not much synergy. As I was noting you only take him in the new book for double pile in (which probably won’t be worth 660 points but will be fun to play). Also some nice combo between him adding 2 to enemy battle shock then causing d3 extra to flee with reapers. 

Archaon

skarbrand 

2 priest

bloodsecrator

stoker

will probably be the 6 heroes for me with Archaon play

Ah ok. I didn't understand that fully. I see what you're saying now.

[jazman84]

5 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Now that I think on it, I may drop a unit of Skullreapers and a Khorgorath to add a unit of Wrathmongers and a Warshrine for the 6+ save, another blessing (resanguination?) and of course the ability to pray to re-roll all failed hit rolls to a unit of my choosing (Skullreapers versus any unit of 4 or less I reckon?). 

A fully buffed Skullreaper unit of 5 would be an absolute nightmare. Bloodstoker grants re-rolling all wounds, between the Shrine and 5+ units they are fighting re-rolling all hits, Warshrine 6+ Feel No Pain save, Slaughterpriest +1 to hit blessing, Slaughterpriest +1 to save blessing, Bloodsecrator, Wrathmonger and Aspiring Champion add +3 attacks for 7 attacks per man total for 35 attacks, natural 6's do mortal wounds on hit rolls, natural 6's do double damage on wounds rolls, battleshock immune bloodthirsty berzerkers who do mortal wounds if they die. 

 I imagine they could destroy just about any unit in the game. 

By the time they get there it's turn 3 and you've lost a few to shooting/spells.

We need speed, and we didn't get it...

[Luke1705]

9 minutes ago, Xasz said:

A 8" ability is too awkward for my tastes.

Isn’t it from any daemon hero? I’m assuming I’m using it to proc on the hero itself so range isn’t an issue

[Xasz]

5 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:

Isn’t it from any daemon hero? I’m assuming I’m using it to proc on the hero itself so range isn’t an issue

You are right, checked the wording.

Not sure if I like it that much. If I'm not missing something , it's "just" n + 1 activation where n is the number of BTs in your list (assuming optimal situation without Blood Tithe) as Tyrants of Blood allows only one cycle. If everything is dead around the BT this ability doesn't really matter, feels like 'win more'.

Blood Lords seems more flexible.

[Luke1705]

2 minutes ago, Xasz said:

You are right, checked the wording.

Not sure if I like it that much. If I'm not missing something , it's "just" n + 1 activation where n is the number of BTs in your list (assuming optimal situation without Blood Tithe) as Tyrants of Blood allows only one cycle. If everything is dead around the BT this ability doesn't really matter, feels like 'win more'.

Blood Lords seems more flexible.

Do the reapers of vengeance command ability and the tyrants of blood ability proc simultaneously? Reading them over, it seems like both happen “immediately after one bloodthirster has made its first fight”

If that’s the case, the rules state that the player whose turn it is (the khorne player) should be able to decide which thing happens first. I don’t think it’s an either or. Meaning it should be 2n activations, where the number of bloodthirsters is n, costing n command points.

Additionally, you can take the blood hungerer relic to get the good part of Bloodlords (fighting first) on a roll of a 4+. So half the time, seems like reapers is just exclusively better. And that d3 extra models is not nothing

[Xasz]

4 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:

Do the reapers of vengeance command ability and the tyrants of blood ability proc simultaneously? Reading them over, it seems like both happen “immediately after one bloodthirster has made its first fight”

If that’s the case, the rules state that the player whose turn it is (the khorne player) should be able to decide which thing happens first. I don’t think it’s an either or. Meaning it should be 2n activations, where the number of bloodthirsters is n, costing n command points.

Additionally, you can take the blood hungerer relic to get the good part of Bloodlords (fighting first) on a roll of a 4+. So half the time, seems like reapers is just exclusively better. And that d3 extra models is not nothing

Nvm, I thought you wanted to activate Tyrants of Blood's rules multiple times. 

[Ravinsild]

One thing to note is what compliments Bloodthirsters best? Which troops to bring? Bloodletters, Hounds, Warriors, or Reavers? Other daemon HQs or mortals? What synergises best with Bloodthirsters as far as "other' units goes, battalions, battleline, etc? This is something I've been looking at by reading the warscrolls over multiple times. I can't see that running other/more demons has anymore benefit except by virtue of existing in say a Reapers of Vengeance list. Mortals get nothing but c'est la vie. 

[Luke1705]

No I’m content with 4 bloodthirsters fighting 8 times before the opponent fights back if I spend 4 CP 😂

[ledha]

i'm still not a fan of the gorefist. For doing like 3 mortal wounds, you need to roll around 18/20 saves, and that usually mean your unit is going to be kicked in the ass. The axes REALLY buff the damage output of the bloodwarriors (3+ rerolling 1 is a world of difference with 3+), and it's useful both when attacking AND when you are being killed.

I think gorefists are better for a unit of 5 (they won't do damages anyway, so at least use them to eat a big charge and do mortal wounds) or units of 25/30 (because you have so many wounds that you'll roll ton of saves roll and do many more MW). But for units of 10/15/20, i think axes are better

[kenshin620]

1 hour ago, Reuben Parker said:

But their CA are no longer in the hero phase so not much synergy.

Hopefully they change Archaon's wording when the undivided update comes out.

Or FAQ it so that it lasts the entire turn.

[Bjornas]

8 minutes ago, ledha said:

i'm still not a fan of the gorefist. For doing like 3 mortal wounds, you need to roll around 18/20 saves, and that usually mean your unit is going to be kicked in the ass. The axes REALLY buff the damage output of the bloodwarriors (3+ rerolling 1 is a world of difference with 3+), and it's useful both when attacking AND when you are being killed.

I think gorefists are better for a unit of 5 (they won't do damages anyway, so at least use them to eat a big charge and do mortal wounds) or units of 25/30 (because you have so many wounds that you'll roll ton of saves roll and do many more MW). But for units of 10/15/20, i think axes are better

There's solid truth in this. I think you just spared me from hours of painful re-modeling.

[ledha]

3 minutes ago, Bjornas said:

There's solid truth in this. I think you just spared me from hours of painful re-modeling.

Plus gorefist only work in melee. It won't help you against shooting or mortal wounds. I don't think going from like 86% chance to hit to 66% just for  your save roll having 16% chance of doing a MW is worth it.

[Choombatta]

Keep in mind though in relation to gorefists.......

The re-roll ones you can get from other sources easily on the Blood Warriors.

The gorefist ability can only come from choosing that load out.

[Xasz]

19 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:

No I’m content with 4 bloodthirsters fighting 8 times before the opponent fights back if I spend 4 CP

Tempting, although I'd still take the wound rerolls, charge reroll + extra move for general, guaranteed first activation and some healing over that. Just seems more generally useful and distributes the power more equally among BTs.

Except the trait, Reapers of Vengeance doesn't appeal to me personally. Unless, if I had to play against magic reliant lists on a regular basis. I'd probably take Reapers without a second thought.

[ChaosUndivided]

5 minutes ago, Choombatta said:

Keep in mind though in relation to gorefists.......

The re-roll ones you can get from other sources easily on the Blood Warriors.

The gorefist ability can only come from choosing that load out.

I believe you're right, the gorefist are unique and the rerolls can be obtained elsewhere. This makes a lot of difference.

Also if the warriors are attacked by a MSU like ghouls the amount of saves you're rolling is insane. Sure the unit is dead beyond a shadow of doubt but you still get to attempt dozens of saves first. This has crushed hords before in my games.

[ledha]

12 minutes ago, Choombatta said:

Keep in mind though in relation to gorefists.......

The re-roll ones you can get from other sources easily on the Blood Warriors.

The gorefist ability can only come from choosing that load out.

True, but i'd prefer use those others sources of bonus/reroll to hits on units such as the wrathmongers/chaos knights who REALLY benefit from it rather than spending it on bloodwarriors.

3+rr1 mean that we don't have to allocate such ressources to them. They are self sufficient and that is what i want

Edited March 19, 2019 by ledha

[Luke1705]

2 minutes ago, Xasz said:

Tempting, although I'd still take the wound rerolls, charge reroll + extra move for general, guaranteed first activation and some healing over that. Just seems more generally useful and distributes the power more equally among BTs.

Except the trait, Reapers of Vengeance doesn't appeal to me personally. Unless, if I had to play against magic reliant lists on a regular basis. I'd probably take Reapers without a second thought.

Tbh the always fight first, while nice, only matters if your opponent has something that happens at the start of the charge phase on your turn (and I don’t roll the 4+ with the other artifact).

Re-roll wounds of 1 is good but it’s only vs heroes and monsters, and definitely not as good as extra models dying to battleshock always.

That healing is 100% never going to get used. If it was a free ability sure. But a command ability? Pass

[Choombatta]

7 minutes ago, ledha said:

True, but i'd prefer use those others sources of bonus/reroll to hits on units such as the wrathmongers/chaos knights who REALLY benefit from it rather than spending it on bloodwarriors.

3+rr1 mean that we don't have to allocate such ressources to them. They are self sufficient and that is what i want

In a lot of my games, I tend to find myself with multiple re-rolls to hit to throw around, so throwing it from say the Warshrine on some blood warriors nearby happens a lot for me.

The gorefists have always done well for me, but YMMV.

[Grimrock]

Keep in mind that a few extra axe hits really won't do much either. Let's say you have 18 attacks (everyone except the unit leader fighting). You'll usually roll 3 1s, so rerolling 1s nets you 2 extra hits, 1 extra wound, and 0.5 extra damage against a 4+ save. Essentially next to 0 improvement for a round of combat. Not saying gorefists are much better, but don't expect the axes to make a difference either.

[Easytyger]

30 minutes ago, ledha said:

Plus gorefist only work in melee. It won't help you against shooting or mortal wounds. I don't think going from like 86% chance to hit to 66% just for  your save roll having 16% chance of doing a MW is worth it.

86%? My rough math may be wrong but isn't it more like 71-72%. I don't think there is a 20% difference from rerolling 1s to hit. Or are you calculating if you are rerolling all misses?

[ledha]

6 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Keep in mind that a few extra axe hits really won't do much either. Let's say you have 18 attacks (everyone except the unit leader fighting). You'll usually roll 3 1s, so rerolling 1s nets you 2 extra hits, 1 extra wound, and 0.5 extra damage against a 4+ save. Essentially next to 0 improvement for a round of combat. Not saying gorefists are much better, but don't expect the axes to make a difference either.

it's a small amelioration, but it scale A LOT with attacks buffs and the no respite rule.

In the case of a unit of 10 (with 9 normals bloodwarriors being killed) being wyped out, your 18 attacks are 27 attacks becoming 54 attacks when everyone die and attack again. The rerolls become very noticeable because the bloodwarriors are one of the unit who throw the most dices in the army. If you have wrathmongers or aspiring deathbringers around it become more and more impactful. Having your attacks nearly always hitting is a huge boon

edit : you are right about the calculation, my excuses ! i mixed it up with a 2+ to hit

Edited March 19, 2019 by ledha