AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[kozokus]

2 hours ago, DarrinTheOccult said:

About what I've read, why are bloodcrushers not worth it? The +2 for d3 mortal wounds each on charge for units of 6 seems pretty good to me 

It is good on the paper but it is hard tu put in place in the actual game for the following reasons :

-The unit of 6 is absolutely huge and hard to fit between your other models scenery etc.

-All your models have to reach the enemy, which is hard with such large base. (to act at full potential)

-Once in combat, without any buff, you have something like 25 attacks with only seven that can produce mortals and have rend. that is a bit low compared to 20 attacks for a 100 points unit of dogs. Plus with your large base, it means that not all your models can fight.

-You loose your charge bonus the moment you loose one model, which isn't hard with only 4 wounds and a 4+ save.

-You only have 8 movement, it might seems good but there are things much faster in the game, so you are not THAT fast.

Don't misunderstand me, this unit is worth its points, but only because it is cheap enough. Just don't imagine that this unit is an elite tranpler. Like all the Khorne units, it needs heavy support. Sadly, the best support you can give them is the pile in 6" which negate the charge bonus. You have to rely on full rerolls from WOKBT +1 armor and +1 to hit prayer.

Strangely it is one of the few Khorne units that lack the innate reroll charge.

Edited August 22, 2019 by kozokus

[AresX8]

13 hours ago, Troll.exe said:

If you run a murderhost, take a bloodthirster of unfettered fury as one of the two. His command ability lets you pile in and attack from 6”. Then you can run, rather then charge with your +2 from you murderhost, your entire daemon hoard, hounds, bloodletters etc up to between 3 1/2 and 6”.

The 16” bubble on the command ability easily gives you  room to fit everything. Almost like an army wide first strike. You decide what to pile in first and therefore what will be able to retaliate etc. 

 

5 hours ago, DarrinTheOccult said:

I didn't thought about that, it looks interesting to test 🤔 I'll try it thanks!

About what I've read, why are bloodcrushers not worth it? The +2 for d3 mortal wounds each on charge for units of 6 seems pretty good to me 

And that's exactly what I covered in the latest Storm of Blood: 

EDIT:

Also, @kozokus, I played a test Bloodmad Warband list, this time with 2x5 Wrathmongers and deployed them aggressively; they were one of the first units I deployed and then formed the rest of the army around them. This was much, much more noticeable and they were relevant most of the game. I suggest trying that next time you play.

Edited August 22, 2019 by AresX8

[DarrinTheOccult]

6 hours ago, kozokus said:

It is good on the paper but it is hard tu put in place in the actual game for the following reasons :

-The unit of 6 is absolutely huge and hard to fit between your other models scenery etc.

-All your models have to reach the enemy, which is hard with such large base. (to act at full potential)

-Once in combat, without any buff, you have something like 25 attacks with only seven that can produce mortals and have rend. that is a bit low compared to 20 attacks for a 100 points unit of dogs. Plus with your large base, it means that not all your models can fight.

-You loose your charge bonus the moment you loose one model, which isn't hard with only 4 wounds and a 4+ save.

-You only have 8 movement, it might seems good but there are things much faster in the game, so you are not THAT fast.

Don't misunderstand me, this unit is worth its points, but only because it is cheap enough. Just don't imagine that this unit is an elite tranpler. Like all the Khorne units, it needs heavy support. Sadly, the best support you can give them is the pile in 6" which negate the charge bonus. You have to rely on full rerolls from WOKBT +1 armor and +1 to hit prayer.

Strangely it is one of the few Khorne units that lack the innate reroll charge.

I see, that sort of things is what I have to test for the army

 However for 40 pts more than the hounds you're getting +1 to save and 2 wounds more. Maybe in a murderhost could fit as a second wave unit, although they would pile in at 6" (which helps the large base problem), charging something that  other MSU blodletters or flesh hounds have engaged looks good to me.

In my list I was thinking on 2 bloodthirsters so the second one can be de WOKBT to give the bonus to them, as the bloodletters with a slaughterpriest and +1 to hit for having +20 makes them to repeat only the 1s. What do you think?

Edited August 22, 2019 by DarrinTheOccult

[DarrinTheOccult]

1 hour ago, AresX8 said:

 

And that's exactly what I covered in the latest Storm of Blood: 

EDIT:

Also, @kozokus, I played a test Bloodmad Warband list, this time with 2x5 Wrathmongers and deployed them aggressively; they were one of the first units I deployed and then formed the rest of the army around them. This was much, much more noticeable and they were relevant most of the game. I suggest trying that next time you play.

I'm gonna have a look at it, thanks!

[Vaux]

Just out of curiosity.

What would be the first three to four still available products (meaning you can still buy them from GW), except the battletome, you would recommend to buy to start a Khorne army at the moment.

[Xasz]

33 minutes ago, Vaux said:

Just out of curiosity.

What would be the first three to four still available products (meaning you can still buy them from GW), except the battletome, you would recommend to buy to start a Khorne army at the moment.

Start Collecting! Khorne Bloodbound Goreblade Warband

Wrath and Rapture (sell/trade Slaanesh)

Skull Altar (maybe with a priest or proxy for now)

Play some games.

Then, priests, Judgements of Khorne, Bloodthirsters or whatever you find interesting and suites your playstyle/tastes.

Trying to get some 2nd hand Khorne stuff from the retired Start Collecting boxes (they had a priest, 10 Blood Warriors, 3 Skullcrushers) or the old starter kit (Khorne vs SCE, which is now the Goreblad Warband but the starter had more Blood Reavers) might be reasonable for a good price.

For what it's worth, competitive Khorne lists all follow the same core build. Mortals for battleline (e.g. chaff) and support (Bloodsecrator, priests...), while daemons are the actual "working parts" of the list (mostly Bloodthirster, sometimes a unit of 30 Bloodletters as well). 

The models in Wrath and Rapture will provide you initially (combined with the Goreblade Warband) with enough models to get about 1k points and later they will often suffice for your summoning needs. Furthermore, with both boxes you get a wide range of models, to practice painting and see how they function on the tabletop.

[Troll.exe]

9 hours ago, AresX8 said:

 

And that's exactly what I covered in the latest Storm of Blood: 

 

 Very nice 👌 much easier then my jumbled explanation

[Smooth criminal]

On 8/22/2019 at 8:07 PM, Vaux said:

Just out of curiosity.

What would be the first three to four still available products (meaning you can still buy them from GW), except the battletome, you would recommend to buy to start a Khorne army at the moment.

Demons:

2x sc demons (build heralds from thrones as separate ones and thrones as cannons)

1x5 doggos (for summons)

1x thirster (magnetize)

This sets you up for pretty much any demon battalion.

It sucks that there is no separate secrator now, but you can probably buy any armored hero and give him icon from blodletter kit, you will have bunch of those.

Mortals:

2x sc goreblade warband (build second secrator and lord as some other armored hero, like aspiring or exalted)

1x5 skullreapers (use bits from this kit to build warriors from sc kit into more skullreapers)

1x5 doggos (for summons)

This sets you up for skulltake or slaughterborn, the ones where you want to be with mortals anyway.

 

I think you can skip on shrine+priest+judgements on 1k points or below. Obviously shrine helps, but it's not important unless you play priests and there are better heroes than priests you must fill out first. 

I think the demons are cheaper to start with (and better competitively, reapers of vengeance, duh), since with mortals you will still need at least 1 sc demons at some point later for summons and a thirster.

[Charleston]

I would go with both SC!-Mortal-Boxes to have all required Support Heroes and Battlelines and add like a box of Skullreapers and Wrathmongers.

This way there would be like a

• Bloodsecrator,
• Bloodstoker
• Mighty Lord of Khorne
• Slaughterpriest
• 15 Bloodwarriors
• 10 Bloodreaver
• 3 Mighty Skullcrushers
• 5 Wrathmongers
• 5 Skullreapers
• and a Khorgorath.

A ton of different options and units which is  lot more fun to play with. It is a solid base to learn the game with different aspects included. Also it would be a nice collection of different units, looking good, and beeing 1410pts.

[Xasz]

I have to point out, that the Start Collecting! Khorne Daemons is bad advice.

There is technically a buck to be saved in contrast to buying each box individually but Bloodcrushers and the cannon/throne are worthless and will stay this way for a long time (maybe 2 years, probably more as their issue is due to having a poor warscroll).

You really need a good reason to buy the SC in this case, like building your collection around a specific battalion or army setup (or reeeaaaaaallly liking those models) .

Otherwise, Wrath and Rapture has way better return value on a single buy as well as multiples.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Xasz

[Agent of Chaos]

I can second this. I have tried to incorporate the bloodcrushers and cannon into my games but they performed as expected (poorly) and for the same 270 points you can take a bloodthirster... thats a no brainer for me. You dont even really want to summon them as Bloodletters, Flesh hounds and obviously bloodthirsters are all better summoning options.  

[Praecautus]

On 8/22/2019 at 4:01 PM, AresX8 said:

 

And that's exactly what I covered in the latest Storm of Blood: 

EDIT:

Also, @kozokus, I played a test Bloodmad Warband list, this time with 2x5 Wrathmongers and deployed them aggressively; they were one of the first units I deployed and then formed the rest of the army around them. This was much, much more noticeable and they were relevant most of the game. I suggest trying that next time you play.

Watched both videos last night while I painted some blood warriors up. Very interesting and got me thinking about building such a list. Just need the models now, being a mortal player I don’t own as many daemons as needed to create a starting 2k daemon list yet. But you certainly made me want to give it a go

[MOMUS]

Played a 2000pt tournament practice game against FEC (1king on ghiest), to switch things up a bit I took out both my usual bloodthirsters which allowed me , MLoK, karanak, 5dogs, mongers and a DP. 

Game was relocation orb, very close thing. Think I could’ve had it with better movement, managed to axe of reality the ghiest. Really enjoy playing against ‘normal’ FEC lists, the extra summons they have make for some good tactical objective play.

I was really impressed by karanak and the DP, using the reapers CA on them to attack twice allowed them to check through flayers multiple times. 

Now working on a list with tyrants + karanak + something 

[Smooth criminal]

On 8/26/2019 at 2:45 AM, Xasz said:

I have to point out, that the Start Collecting! Khorne Daemons is bad advice.

There is technically a buck to be saved in contrast to buying each box individually but Bloodcrushers and the cannon/throne are worthless and will stay this way for a long time (maybe 2 years, probably more as their issue is due to having a poor warscroll).

You really need a good reason to buy the SC in this case, like building your collection around a specific battalion or army setup (or reeeaaaaaallly liking those models) .

Otherwise, Wrath and Rapture has way better return value on a single buy as well as multiples.

Well, crushers and cannons are better than big letter bricks and the only other elite demon option are thirsters. So you either pigeonhole yourself into thirster spam or take those.

I agree that wrath&rapture is probably a better deal, but you'll need to sell slaanesh half for that to be true.

[Warhammer Mace]

I have a question regarding blood tithe abilities 

 

Firstly I have tried searching but it kept bringing up skaventide discussions etc

 

The 4th Ability apocolyptic frenzy it says pick a khorne unit within 3" of an enemy unit and pile in and attack with that unit 

 

So if I charge with something and attack with it can I immediately spend 4 blood tithe and pile in and attach again or is this stopped as I'm in base to base contact,

 

Looked through the core rules on pile ins etc and nothing says you cant pile in if your in base to base just you have to end your move no further away than the closest enemy model 

 

Can someone help clarify?

[Impa]

3 hours ago, Warhammer Mace said:

I have a question regarding blood tithe abilities 

 

Firstly I have tried searching but it kept bringing up skaventide discussions etc

 

The 4th Ability apocolyptic frenzy it says pick a khorne unit within 3" of an enemy unit and pile in and attack with that unit 

 

So if I charge with something and attack with it can I immediately spend 4 blood tithe and pile in and attach again or is this stopped as I'm in base to base contact,

 

Looked through the core rules on pile ins etc and nothing says you cant pile in if your in base to base just you have to end your move no further away than the closest enemy model 

 

Can someone help clarify?

You use the blood tithe table at the start of your hero phase. So you’d attack in your hero phase if you chose that option for 4 bloodtithe. So no, you couldn’t use it in the combat phase to attack again. You’d need an eligible unit within 3” of an enemy unit in the Hero phase to attack. But this doesn’t stop you from attacking in the combat phase with the same unit after using the Bloodtithe in Hero phase.. As far as I am aware. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Impa

[MOMUS]

Can’t remember if I saw it on this forum or another but I saw it stated that you can build a second bloodthirster from the skarbrand kit providing you have a spare thirster body? Is this right?

[Darksteve]

15 hours ago, Impa said:

You use the blood tithe table at the start of your hero phase. So you’d attack in your hero phase if you chose that option for 4 bloodtithe. So no, you couldn’t use it in the combat phase to attack again. You’d need an eligible unit within 3” of an enemy unit in the Hero phase to attack. But this doesn’t stop you from attacking in the combat phase with the same unit after using the Bloodtithe in Hero phase.. As far as I am aware. 

Just wanted to point out. You can use bloodtitie abilities at the start of either player's Hero phase. Not just yours. Except entry 2 which you use when you want to unbind a spell

Edited August 29, 2019 by Darksteve

[Xasz]

8 hours ago, MOMUS said:

Can’t remember if I saw it on this forum or another but I saw it stated that you can build a second bloodthirster from the skarbrand kit providing you have a spare thirster body? Is this right?

Hardly.

Skarbrand has the weapon sprue from vanilla Bloodthristers alongside his very own.

So you end up with a couple extra weapons and some meh bitz when you build Skarbrand normally.

 

22 hours ago, Smooth criminal said:

Well, crushers and cannons are better than big letter bricks and the only other elite demon option are thirsters. So you either pigeonhole yourself into thirster spam or take those.

I agree that wrath&rapture is probably a better deal, but you'll need to sell slaanesh half for that to be true.

The premise was not, "what you like" but where someone should start if he wants to start with Khorne.

Ergo, getting enough models to field 1000+ and being able to expand the collection however one sees fit while already providing the basis for later lists.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Xasz

[Praecautus]

Come and have a go if you think your hard enough 😀 the boys get ready to take on 2 k BCR in knife to the heart. 

Won in turn 2 with most of the opponent army destroyed. 

This was an experimental list with some unit set ups I would not use eg MSU warriors with fists.

what I learnt, this castle / collapsing bag worked a dream. 3 layers of msu warriors, wrathmongers and skull reapers was very resilient. While individual units were getting overkilled opponent was not advancing  as each line was 3 inch apart so the second wave would fill the shoes of their dead mates.

MSU blood warriors w fists is a great strategy against armies which want to get. For the reason above and damage after death.

The tight set up favoured me, several units were getting +2 attacks due to mongers and secrator

Skarr was a threat all game with his potential deepstrike. Opponent tried not attacking him to stop that happening. 

Skullreapers are amazing. 25 -27 attacks with secrator wiped his genera

Fury thirster w torc combined with a prince w hew the foe and sword of judgment is a nasty surprise. 6 inch pile in for the prince over the line to snipe a stone horn. Great ability.

Finished turn 2 with over 8 tithe ( missed oops to spend it) but it meant I could be reckless with the thirster

Onwards to the next battle

[Battlefury]

3 hours ago, Praecautus said:

Come and have a go if you think your hard enough 😀 the boys get ready to take on 2 k BCR in knife to the heart. 

Won in turn 2 with most of the opponent army destroyed. 

This was an experimental list with some unit set ups I would not use eg MSU warriors with fists.

what I learnt, this castle / collapsing bag worked a dream. 3 layers of msu warriors, wrathmongers and skull reapers was very resilient. While individual units were getting overkilled opponent was not advancing  as each line was 3 inch apart so the second wave would fill the shoes of their dead mates.

MSU blood warriors w fists is a great strategy against armies which want to get. For the reason above and damage after death.

The tight set up favoured me, several units were getting +2 attacks due to mongers and secrator

Skarr was a threat all game with his potential deepstrike. Opponent tried not attacking him to stop that happening. 

Skullreapers are amazing. 25 -27 attacks with secrator wiped his genera

Fury thirster w torc combined with a prince w hew the foe and sword of judgment is a nasty surprise. 6 inch pile in for the prince over the line to snipe a stone horn. Great ability.

Finished turn 2 with over 8 tithe ( missed oops to spend it) but it meant I could be reckless with the thirster

Onwards to the next battle

Awesome!

I am really encouraged atam, since a few players now seem to find the sneak peeks of our army!

[MOMUS]

14 hours ago, Xasz said:

Hardly.

Skarbrand has the weapon sprue from vanilla Bloodthristers alongside his very own.

So you end up with a couple extra weapons and some meh bitz when you build Skarbrand normally.

Actually looking closer at the sprue I think you can :)

skarbrand comes with his own legs/arms/wings, so if you made him with no wings (can’t fly) you could build a whole bloodthirster providing you had the torso pieces (front/back/neck).

[Xasz]

25 minutes ago, MOMUS said:

Actually looking closer at the sprue I think you can

skarbrand comes with his own legs/arms/wings, so if you made him with no wings (can’t fly) you could build a whole bloodthirster providing you had the torso pieces (front/back/neck).

I applaud your optimism but except the weapons and a pair of hooves there is not much left after building Skarbrand.

You'd have to improvise the whole torso (Skarbrand uses the generic one as base), wings and a good portion of the leg area.

(I've build him recently and have the remaining sprue sitting in front of me...)

Edited August 30, 2019 by Xasz

[MOMUS]

1 hour ago, Xasz said:

I applaud your optimism but except the weapons and a pair of hooves there is not much left after building Skarbrand.

You'd have to improvise the whole torso (Skarbrand uses the generic one as base), wings and a good portion of the leg area.

(I've build him recently and have the remaining sprue sitting in front of me...)

Ah forgot about the abdomen, can’t remember how it goes together is it part of the basic legs or skarbrand has his own on his own legs?

[Xasz]

41 minutes ago, MOMUS said:

Ah forgot about the abdomen, can’t remember how it goes together is it part of the basic legs or skarbrand has his own on his own legs?

It's part of the basic model if I remember correctly.