AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Oreaper84]

52 minutes ago, Xasz said:

None was intended.

Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning then. Why would the results and lists from one of the largest US AOS events be irrelevant.  

[Agent of Chaos]

2 hours ago, Louzi said:

quick question: wrathmongers are killed, I activate bloodfury and chose enemy model to attack itself. Does the enemy model still has +1 attack because of crimson haze or is it gone?

If the enemy model is still in range of a living Wrathmonger then yes it would still get +1 attack.

If it was the last Wrathmonger that died then I would say no extra attack. 

[Reuben Parker]

3 hours ago, Zamik said:

I'd like to see allegiance abilities that give mortal Khorne armies greater mobility, whether it's an across-the-board run and charge buff, or Command Abilities to let more units move or fight in the Hero Phase, even if it's a once-a-game effect.  Our whole thing is the Combat Phase--if we can get there faster, or annex other phases into it, Khorne wins!

(This is my totally unbiased and not game-imbalancing-at-all opinion 😄)

To be fair we kind of have that with violent urgency trait and talisman of burning fury item already but could always have a FEC style +2 move army wide bloodhost (or whatever they will be called). I sort of want a -1 to hit one for ranged weapons group as well same as DoK. 

 

Really hoping the book puts a focus on blood tithe and things triggered when units die. That way Khorne players could run MSU suicide style lists that would be really unique compared to how most AoS armies work. 

[Coyote]

No word yet when the new release may happen?  Been looking online, but likely too soon.  Hoping I missed something.

[Rumblefish]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

No word yet when the new release may happen?  Been looking online, but likely too soon.  Hoping I missed something.

The next 40k box is apparently released or pre-ordered mid march, we might slot in before that as a one week release? I would assume April or later though.

[Killax]

10 hours ago, Oreaper84 said:

Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning then. Why would the results and lists from one of the largest US AOS events be irrelevant.  

I don't think this should be viewed in that way at all. I think it's a cool unortadox list. At the same time, it's a 10th place list, which in itself is a cool result but also shows that there isn't really that much in Khorne that allows you to steamroll your opponent  

Having said that, it's a great result for running with the 1200 points dragon. Which players I know who have it mention as being clearly overcosted. To me this is a good thing however, giving a FW model competitive purpose would really be a repeated mistake if GW would allow that. 

6 hours ago, Rumblefish said:

The next 40k box is apparently released or pre-ordered mid march, we might slot in before that as a one week release? I would assume April or later though.

I think March/April is the best bet. Else they wouldn't have showed it. But May is very possible too. Even I'd say that we shouldn't get top prio at this point. For the simple reason that certain armies need that update much more. Still love that GW did it offcourse.

Having said that, I do wish GW used a different cover for the book. I personally don't think that artwork is the coolest. I still am a massive fan of this piece:



VS

[Xasz]

10 hours ago, Oreaper84 said:

Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning then. Why would the results and lists from one of the largest US AOS events be irrelevant.  

I'll keep it short as this is not the right place.

This was not meant as a jab at the US scene, the event or the players, somehow people always seem to see it that way...

My problem is that internet people tend to become overly giddy with excitement when an unusual army performs in an event. While this is awesome (and congratz to the players!) it can usually be explained with standard deviation (happens a lot with swiss) or other factors, like experience of the player e.g. Dan Ford or competitiveness of the scene.

It's no secret that the UK scene is rather well developed compared to others. In Germany the AoS tournament scene is only starting to form for like half a year now and there has finally been a call for a German ETC team. 40k is the big cheese in Germany and it's been for a while (with some lows), same goes for what is visible from the US scene. All the big events started as 40k tourneys there and just recently added AoS and/or other systems into the fold. These side events often tend to be a bit less competitive than the main course (again, no offense just observation). It's rather likely that linear lists would have a lot more trouble in an overall experienced scene.

Furthermore, #attendees != competitiveness. I've been to events with ~10 people that were absolutely brutal in comparison to >50.

I guess my comment is more a reminder that lists alone rarely mean anything and that there are a lot of factors to consider (how developed is the scene, size, experience, swiss, tables...) and that single results often mean very little.

To make absolutely sure, this was not attack on anyone, the dragon looked awesome and all the top players played probably really well.

[Roark]

Is it greedy to hope for interesting sub-factions? I think I'm going to be a bit disappointed if the sub-factions are just Mortals, Daemons, Mixed. I haven't read all the other armies' tomes, but they all seem to have cool thematic ones with a bit of fluff. That's what I want too eh. 

[Retro]

1 hour ago, Roark said:

Is it greedy to hope for interesting sub-factions? I think I'm going to be a bit disappointed if the sub-factions are just Mortals, Daemons, Mixed. I haven't read all the other armies' tomes, but they all seem to have cool thematic ones with a bit of fluff. That's what I want too eh. 

How would you split it up further? I can't see daemons being turned into multiple sub factions but maybe mortals.

You could probably split them along the lines of "armoured/warrior" vs "non-armoured/tribal"

Reavers, priests, wrathmongers etc one side and bloodwarriors, skull crushers, lords of khorne etc on the other.

[jazman84]

I want to see previously ignored  units become a good option.

Things like:

Skullgrinder

Slaughterbrute of Khorne 

Exalted Deathbringer

[Roark]

49 minutes ago, Retro said:

How would you split it up further? I can't see daemons being turned into multiple sub factions but maybe mortals.

You could probably split them along the lines of "armoured/warrior" vs "non-armoured/tribal"

Reavers, priests, wrathmongers etc one side and bloodwarriors, skull crushers, lords of khorne etc on the other.

Nah, I mean like individual cults, philosophies or houses, like Kharadron and Daughters have. Sub-factions that have some character.

[ledha]

On 2/9/2019 at 12:38 AM, Grimrock said:

I'm guessing the axe is a predatory damage dealer, the giant bronze rune is some sort of anti magic (maybe like a suped up malevolent maelstrom or a once per turn brazen rune?) and the bleeding skull is a blood tithe generator.

For the book I'm hoping they make the generic mortal heroes viable somehow, I've got a couple that have barely ever been on the table. Maybe they'll make the gorechosen battalion something like the gobbapalooza? Let you field 8 heroes without actually taking up any hero slots so you can use it in a regular game. If they can do that, iron out the internal balance a bit, and make unused blood tithe stick around instead of disappearing I'll be pretty happy.

A super cool way to make The Gorechosen playable, fun AND powerful would be to :

1 - bypass the limit number of 6 heroes (obviously)

2- Giving to ALL OF THEM a command trait (like the clawlord from Verminus Clan)

3 - All of them can have a magical item from the khorne battletome, bypassing classic limitations.

It sounds "too good" but if half the points of your army are in 8 models with 5 wounds and save 4+ in average, you need this to make them worthy.  Plus it could make a super cool scenario of some heroes vs an entire army. A grimdark and ironic retelling of the 7 seven samorais (with 8 khornate heroes) and the old Warhammer Fantasy Battle scenario where a few bretonnian heroes were pitted a whole army. Which could be a good hommage to some of Khorne's qualities, like bravery, determination, martial prowess and fighting against the odds.

Edited February 12, 2019 by ledha

[Oreaper84]

12 hours ago, Agent of Chaos said:

If the enemy model is still in range of a living Wrathmonger then yes it would still get +1 attack.

If it was the last Wrathmonger that died then I would say no extra attack. 

quick question as a weird situation came up with wrathmongers the other day.... So an evocator unit was tagged  to attack itself. The question was surronding the celestial lightning arc...The question is, does this proc as the unit has technically attacked? and if so who does it hit?....Thought id ask here 1st before dropping it in the rules chat...

[THUNDERFISTS]

1 hour ago, Retro said:

How would you split it up further? I can't see daemons being turned into multiple sub factions but maybe mortals.

You could probably split them along the lines of "armoured/warrior" vs "non-armoured/tribal"

Reavers, priests, wrathmongers etc one side and bloodwarriors, skull crushers, lords of khorne etc on the other.

I would bet that the subfactions will be called "Tribes" or something like that. Look at the newest 40k codex for Genestealers Cults, there are six different Cult s as subfactions with their own rules. So each Tribe would have it's own themed focus - demon worshiping, Reavers en masse, monsters, etc. That's the pattern I see coming. Super pumped. 

[Oreaper84]

3 hours ago, Xasz said:

I'll keep it short as this is not the right place.

This was not meant as a jab at the US scene, the event or the players, somehow people always seem to see it that way...

My problem is that internet people tend to become overly giddy with excitement when an unusual army performs in an event. While this is awesome (and congratz to the players!) it can usually be explained with standard deviation (happens a lot with swiss) or other factors, like experience of the player e.g. Dan Ford or competitiveness of the scene.

It's no secret that the UK scene is rather well developed compared to others. In Germany the AoS tournament scene is only starting to form for like half a year now and there has finally been a call for a German ETC team. 40k is the big cheese in Germany and it's been for a while (with some lows), same goes for what is visible from the US scene. All the big events started as 40k tourneys there and just recently added AoS and/or other systems into the fold. These side events often tend to be a bit less competitive than the main course (again, no offense just observation). It's rather likely that linear lists would have a lot more trouble in an overall experienced scene.

Furthermore, #attendees != competitiveness. I've been to events with ~10 people that were absolutely brutal in comparison to >50.

I guess my comment is more a reminder that lists alone rarely mean anything and that there are a lot of factors to consider (how developed is the scene, size, experience, swiss, tables...) and that single results often mean very little.

To make absolutely sure, this was not attack on anyone, the dragon looked awesome and all the top players played probably really well.

Thank you for the explanation. I see the point you are making in regards to the avoidance of knee ****** from large event results. People on the internet do tend to cry foul or unduly laud accomplishment on lists/army's solely based on large event performance. We now DO have a unique responsibility as GW listens to an extent to what its player base says (i stress the phrase "to an extent"). 

I do fundamentally disagree with the importance on the results from a statistical analysis perspective.  Even as an outlier, an oddball list that performs well can be analyzed based on its match-ups, scenarios, players, etc... Meta's shift like the tides and a view into what performs well in a given meta is actually invaluable data. Furthermore i think relative "maturity" of a meta is a false perspective. Ill grant that the UK scene did springboard from launch of AOS, and most of the sharpers of AOS come from the UK, but time does not translate to maturity in that there is not end state. Thoughts and idea's shift and the surrounding environment adapts to combat new threats. There is no meta that is better or worse, they are just different, and to think that one is superior to the other is discrediting to the players who perform in said meta.

 

[Retro]

3 hours ago, Roark said:

Nah, I mean like individual cults, philosophies or houses, like Kharadron and Daughters have. Sub-factions that have some character.

Oh right, I misunderstood. I was thinking along the lines of BoC where depending on keyword you had different allegiance abilities for the units.

That definitely would be a cool addition to the army.

[Grimrock]

4 hours ago, Roark said:

Nah, I mean like individual cults, philosophies or houses, like Kharadron and Daughters have. Sub-factions that have some character.

Based on the Warhammer community post I'm guessing it'll be similar to stormcast where they took the major battalions and just turned them into sub factions. Which I guess could make it exciting if you were already using one... But for me it's not a big deal. I went with a custom scheme and didn't really do a theme, so I'll probably just slot into whatever sounds like fun if I use any at all.

 

4 hours ago, ledha said:

A super cool way to make The Gorechosen playable, fun AND powerful would be to :

1 - bypass the limit number of 6 heroes (obviously)

2- Giving to ALL OF THEM a command trait (like the clawlord from Verminus Clan)

3 - All of them can have a magical item from the khorne battletome, bypassing classic limitations.

It sounds "too good" but if half the points of your army are in 8 models with 5 wounds and save 4+ in average, you need this to make them worthy.  Plus it could make a super cool scenario of some heroes vs an entire army. A grimdark and ironic retelling of the 7 seven samorais (with 8 khornate heroes) and the old Warhammer Fantasy Battle scenario where a few bretonnian heroes were pitted a whole army. Which could be a good hommage to some of Khorne's qualities, like bravery, determination, martial prowess and fighting against the odds.

Cool ideas, and yeah I think for what most of the heroes are now it might actually work. Honestly I just want a good excuse to put all those heroes I got in the board game on the table haha.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Grimrock

[Xasz]

It will "just" be Stormhosts/Temples for Khorne, meaning Goretide, Skullfiend Tribe, Iron Horde, Eight-blooded, Brazen Butchers, Axes of Skarbrand... to name a few.

Personally I'm fine with that.

Maybe there is more but I would just wait, it's not unlikely that we'll get the first real teaser this or next week.

[Retro]

3 minutes ago, Xasz said:

It will "just" be Stormhosts/Temples for Khorne, meaning Goretide, Skullfiend Tribe, Iron Horde, Eight-blooded, Brazen Butchers, Axes of Skarbrand... to name a few.

Personally I'm fine with that.

Maybe there is more but I would just wait, it's not unlikely that we'll get the first real teaser this or next week.

That sounds awesome, as long as there aren't 7 ****** ones and 1 good one

[Bjornas]

3 hours ago, Xasz said:

It will "just" be Stormhosts/Temples for Khorne, meaning Goretide, Skullfiend Tribe, Iron Horde, Eight-blooded, Brazen Butchers, Axes of Skarbrand... to name a few.

Personally I'm fine with that.

Maybe there is more but I would just wait, it's not unlikely that we'll get the first real teaser this or next week.

Being unfamiliar with how the stormhosts/temples work, could you elaborate a little on them and what it could mean for us?

[Xasz]

1 minute ago, Bjornas said:

Being unfamiliar with how the stormhosts/temples work, could you elaborate a little on them and what it could mean for us?

You choose them at the same time you write your list.

They come with some restrictions or preset stuff, like first artifact must be X or you have to take command trait Y but for that you get some additional rules, sometimes a special command trait and/or some battalions have different conditions.

It's a bit like a keywordless subfaction.

[123lac]

12 hours ago, jazman84 said:

I want to see previously ignored  units become a good option.

Things like:

Skullgrinder

Slaughterbrute of Khorne 

Exalted Deathbringer

Yeah, this.

We have a lot of cool heroes. How awesome would it be if the Exalted Deathbringers suddenly became viable?

As much as I like the Slaughter Priest sculpts, I'd rather see some diversity instead of just Gore Pilgrims + Bloodthirster.

[Beulettor]

19 hours ago, Oreaper84 said:

quick question as a weird situation came up with wrathmongers the other day.... So an evocator unit was tagged  to attack itself. The question was surronding the celestial lightning arc...The question is, does this proc as the unit has technically attacked? and if so who does it hit?....Thought id ask here 1st before dropping it in the rules chat...

Wrathmonger ability doesn't make a UNIT attack, it makes a MODEL attack. So it doesn't proc the Celestial lightning arc, that is an ability when the UNIT attacks ;).

[Killax]

21 hours ago, Roark said:

Is it greedy to hope for interesting sub-factions? I think I'm going to be a bit disappointed if the sub-factions are just Mortals, Daemons, Mixed. I haven't read all the other armies' tomes, but they all seem to have cool thematic ones with a bit of fluff. That's what I want too eh. 

No I don't think that's greedy at all. It was even mentioned in the article.


 

15 hours ago, Xasz said:

It will "just" be Stormhosts/Temples for Khorne, meaning Goretide, Skullfiend Tribe, Iron Horde, Eight-blooded, Brazen Butchers, Axes of Skarbrand... to name a few.

Personally I'm fine with that.

Maybe there is more but I would just wait, it's not unlikely that we'll get the first real teaser this or next week.

Yeah that sounds about right to me aswell. I think they will mentioned these all but will pick out 4 with specific alternate rules. Based on what they did for other armies so far and based on what they promoted in the initial Blades of Khorne book. So If I´d had to thake a guess these would have some specific benifits and restrictions:

Daemon: 
- The Reapers of Vengeance (Daemon only maby) basically a movement buff to all Daemons. So I'd expect a more incorporate Murder host. But at the downside of being Daemon force. Easy to pick up, straight forward and very effective for Bloodthirster fans.
- The Blood Lords (Daemon only maby) additional pile in and combat for Bloodletter heroes. Khorne Heralds have always been poor Heroes and this force could change that, especially if it would also apply to summonned Heralds. Which basically would make our little heroes nice and finally have a chance to interract well in terms of design vs the game. But again the downside being Daemon force. It will be a great sellingpoint for the new Skulltaker too. Perhaps they will even update it to be effective for Fleshhound Heroes aswell so Karanak can be incorporated into this aswell.

Mortal:
- The Goretide (Mortal only maby) basically a movement buff to all Mortals. The Battalion used to be very cool, has a great concept but due to costs really has become quite unplayable for 2K. What's likely also going to happen is that the 'Khul appointment' would be able to dissapear and have Khul with updated rules that link to this, instead of the odd mix we're in now.
- The Skullfiend Tribe (Mortal only maby) basically hero and monster hunters. The concept again is very cool but never really played out.

Reasons:
The prime reason I believe this will be the focused sub-factions is that GW understands and sees how these 'massive Battalions' never really worked out and can't really work out at 2K points. In addition to that, it would allow you to mix and match still but give a great reason to do not do so. I believe it's better to not represent sub-factions in a massive Battalion but instead make them more limited but more unique. 

I also hope that Games Workshop will make a mixed Battalion or two, however considering how Maggotkin of Nurgle doesn't have any either, it might be possible that we won't see this at all, as is the case in the current state of Blades of Khorne. Probably not because GW doesn't want to, but likely because the products they sell don't offer that either. The main reason to then not go into one of these sub-factions would be to mix and match, which then likely will support other tribes in a form of a Battalion. 

 

[Beulettor]

I realised something about the new book... Bad news for BT of Insensate Rage...

Abilities on 6+ to hit/wound are all being replaced by unmodified 6, in every new battletome since v2 is out. That way, lot of people already knew that Bloodletters would be "nerfed".

Here is a first list of other Khorne units that will, pretty sure, be nerfed :

• Juggerlord : Daemonic Axe will inflict 3 wounds on a 6. No more combo with his own ability. So, point reduction or abilities modifications ares expected.
• All deamons with bloodletters in it (Throne, Canon, BL heroes) will have decapitating blow on a unmodified 6.
•  Skulltaker : 3 MW on a 6+ to hit... Full rework of the warscroll, with rework of the model (pretty one).
• Blood Thirster of Insensate Rage : Outrageous Carnage on a flat 6, no more combo with Juggerlord or Ghyrstrike
• Skullreapers' Daemonforged Waepons : supposed to do MW on 6+ and get 1 MW on a 1.  Considering Trial of Skulls can allow rerolls...
• Skulltake battalion : add 1 damage on a flat 6. So, point reduction on battalion and/or abilities change
• Some others I haven't in mind ringht now...

Lot of nerfs are coming, so a lot of bonuses may come too... Or a total rework.

We can imagine some abilities will become "wholly within" too, but that's harder to know, since not every abilities are rewritten this way.