AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Smooth criminal]

3 hours ago, Blisterfeet said:

So buying a bloodthirster today and wondering which of one would go best into mortal themed list as a stand alone model for a local tourny.

If there is no real benefit I'll just go rule of cool!

**When I finish my army mentioned previously in this thread it will most likely be used as summons. 

List for the tourney

  Reveal hidden contents

++ Chaos - Khorne ++

+ Leader +

Bloodsecrator [120pts]

Bloodstoker [80pts]

Chaos Lord on Manticore [250pts]

<Insert any bloodthirster> which would most likely be general

+ Battleline +

Chaos Warriors [180pts]: 2x 5 Chaos Warriors, Chaos Hand Weapons and Chaos Runeshields, Hornblower, Khorne, Standard Bearer

+ Other +

Chaos Knights [160pts]: 5 Chaos Knights, Ensorcelled Weapon, Hornblower, Khorne, Standard Bearer

Chaos Knights [160pts]: 5 Chaos Knights, Ensorcelled Weapon, Hornblower, Khorne, Standard Bearer

Battalion: Gore Pilgrims 
. Blood Warriors: 5 Blood Warriors, Goreaxe and Gorefist, Icon Bearer
. Bloodreavers: 10 Bloodreavers, Hornblowers, Icon Bearers, Reaver Blades
. Bloodsecrator
. Slaughterpriest: Hackblade & Wrath-hammer
. Slaughterpriest: Hackblade & Wrath-hammer

 

 

Magnetize the right hand into whip/chain/big axe.

[Smooth criminal]

1 hour ago, Kaldanesh said:

Thank you!  That was the way I read it.  So why do people hate on this guy so much?  Granted I don't really play competitively but he always seems to perform well for me.

Weak attack profile. Skullgrinders and exalteds are way better for merely 80pt.

[Kaldanesh]

27 minutes ago, Smooth criminal said:

Weak attack profile. Skullgrinders and exalteds are way better for merely 80pt.

Agree.  Which weapon loadout for exalted?

[Troll.exe]

5 hours ago, Blisterfeet said:

So buying a bloodthirster today and wondering which of one would go best into mortal themed list as a stand alone model for a local tourny.

If there is no real benefit I'll just go rule of cool!

**When I finish my army mentioned previously in this thread it will most likely be used as summons. 

List for the tourney

  Reveal hidden contents

++ Chaos - Khorne ++

+ Leader +

Bloodsecrator [120pts]

Bloodstoker [80pts]

Chaos Lord on Manticore [250pts]

<Insert any bloodthirster> which would most likely be general

+ Battleline +

Chaos Warriors [180pts]: 2x 5 Chaos Warriors, Chaos Hand Weapons and Chaos Runeshields, Hornblower, Khorne, Standard Bearer

+ Other +

Chaos Knights [160pts]: 5 Chaos Knights, Ensorcelled Weapon, Hornblower, Khorne, Standard Bearer

Chaos Knights [160pts]: 5 Chaos Knights, Ensorcelled Weapon, Hornblower, Khorne, Standard Bearer

Battalion: Gore Pilgrims 
. Blood Warriors: 5 Blood Warriors, Goreaxe and Gorefist, Icon Bearer
. Bloodreavers: 10 Bloodreavers, Hornblowers, Icon Bearers, Reaver Blades
. Bloodsecrator
. Slaughterpriest: Hackblade & Wrath-hammer
. Slaughterpriest: Hackblade & Wrath-hammer

 

 

I’d be leaning towards a BoIR or WoKB with that lineup.

Slap an amberglave on a BoIR and he’ll do some damage, especially if you’re double attacking with Reapers.

If you have a lot of issues with magic the WoKB will sort that out, once again especially if he’s your general and you use Reapers. Then you get two unbinds at +2 to unbind plus one unbind with the vanilla 8 Reapers fluff.

BoUF performs best with a more daemon heavy army, combine him with a murder host for best results. Unless you’re facing armies with alpha strike regularly and you need to spam the 6” pile in I’d avoid him for now.

 

[chord]

What does everyone think of the Slaughterbrute? I love the look of the model, but I just noticed the Slaughterbrute of Khorne isn't in the AoS app anymore. 

[Troll.exe]

2 hours ago, chord said:

What does everyone think of the Slaughterbrute? I love the look of the model, but I just noticed the Slaughterbrute of Khorne isn't in the AoS app anymore. 

There’s a good discussion of the slaughterbrute on page 219. I believe since then they have removed the Khorne keyword and tagged the master as Slaves to darkness. Might have to give the master the Khorne keyword and take the slaughterbrute as an ally if you want to use it now.

[chord]

9 hours ago, Troll.exe said:

There’s a good discussion of the slaughterbrute on page 219. I believe since then they have removed the Khorne keyword and tagged the master as Slaves to darkness. Might have to give the master the Khorne keyword and take the slaughterbrute as an ally if you want to use it now.

There is a Slaughter brute of khorne warscroll in the PDF File. 

[AresX8]

23 hours ago, NoLifeKing said:

8 wounds

 

22 hours ago, Kaldanesh said:

Thank you!  That was the way I read it.  So why do people hate on this guy so much?  Granted I don't really play competitively but he always seems to perform well for me.

He does 7, not 8.  Copy pasting from: 

pg 8 of the Core Rules Designer's Commentary ( https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/age_of_sigmar_core_rules_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf ) states:

"ABILITIES

1. Q: If two abilities affect a value, and one adds a modifier to the value and the other either multiplies or divides the value, do you apply the modifiers before or after multiplying or dividing the value?

A: Apply the modifiers after multiplying or dividing the value."

And also on the same page:

2. "Q: If several abilities are triggered at the same time (at the start of a hero phase, for example), how do you determine the order in which they are used?

A: If several abilities can be used at the same time, the player whose turn is taking place uses their abilities first, one after the other, in any order they desire; then the player whose turn is not taking place uses their abilities, one after another, in any order they desire. The same principle applies to any other things – such as command traits or artefacts of power – that can be used simultaneously. Note that abilities used at the start or the end of a phase still count as being used in the phase in question."

The second question here is the key one as Daemonforged Axe and Gorecleaver proc at the same time.

So you can choose to have Daemonforged Axe go off first, which sets the damage value of that attack to 3. Gorecleaver then goes off, which doubles the damage value to 6. You then finally add 1 to this damage as following the first question.

[Smooth criminal]

23 hours ago, Kaldanesh said:

Agree.  Which weapon loadout for exalted?

For gorecleaver axe probably. Otherwise spear, can't go wrong with mortal wounds.

[Kaldanesh]

4 minutes ago, Smooth criminal said:

For gorecleaver axe probably. Otherwise spear, can't go wrong with mortal wounds.

Thanks again!  I have both built just trying to figure out which to paint first. 😜

[Lord Krungharr]

Looking to try out my Beasts of Khorne again with the Brass Despoilers, backed by 2 Slaughterpriests (all the Judgements too) and 2 Bloodsecrators.  Should I plop the 3x10 Bestigors in the battalion, or should I take a unit of 4 Khorgoraths instead?  

I like the bodies for objectives with the Bestigors, but I'll have the Doombull, 3x3 Bullgors and 3x10 Gors already.  They won't all get to activate or be in range to attack like a unit of 4 Khorgoraths would.  But that will increase my drops from 5 to 6, if that matters much at that amount of drops.

[Smooth criminal]

Can't say about khorgoraths vs. bestigors, depends on your host I think. If you have a thirster you obviously take bestigors and host that allows to attack twice. If it's just bestigors vs. khorgoraths then you can take khorgorath host.

The drop count most important jumps are 3->4, 4->5 and 8+, the rest don't matter as much. I.e. 6 drop list will get to choose about as much as 5 drop because majority of people play either 4- or 8+.

[Malfean]

Some armies have Command Abilities that give a model/unit a 6" attack range and a 6" pile-in move.  People have told me this is how you can avoid having your Bloodthirsters, etc, destroyed by things like zombie dragons and the like. How does this work exactly? 

Specifically the Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury's command ability. My understanding is that a lot if tournament armies use this with the Halo of Blood artefact and the Tyrants battalion to have triple Bloodthirsters attacking first and piling it safely from 6" away. 

[Malfean]

Edit: duplucate post, sorry!

Edited October 4, 2019 by Malfean
Duplicate post.

[Charleston]

Had yesterday a second game with the list mentioned earlier. This time a 3 way against Tzeentch and LoN with Nagash. It was a fun game and once again the Lord of Chaos with a Reaperblade and "Hew the Foe" was an total nightmare in meele.

[Smooth criminal]

18 hours ago, Malfean said:

Some armies have Command Abilities that give a model/unit a 6" attack range and a 6" pile-in move.  People have told me this is how you can avoid having your Bloodthirsters, etc, destroyed by things like zombie dragons and the like. How does this work exactly? 

Specifically the Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury's command ability. My understanding is that a lot if tournament armies use this with the Halo of Blood artefact and the Tyrants battalion to have triple Bloodthirsters attacking first and piling it safely from 6" away. 

You move your stuff  3-6" away from them, all the strike first/last stuff fizzles against you because it can't reach you, then you you start fighting, they will still retaliate. Much harder to do on opponent's turn, you need to practice the proper positioning of screen.

Take note Tyrants ability and Reapers ability require you to be within 3" to activate, so it gets even trickier there.

[Blisterfeet]

Hi again does anyone have any math hammer for Khorne units? I'm trying to compare which of these units is 'better' Vs 4+ save units for my goretide list. Any help appreciated.

(not looking for any other suggestions just these below)

10 Flesh hounds

20 Blood warriors

10 Wrathmongers 

3 Varanguard (allied in)

20 Splinterfang (allied in)

[AresX8]

I have a feeling I might have been playing Reapers of Vengeance wrong this entire time. Specifically, with Leave None Alive and it not requiring to measure from a Hero in order to use it.  Here's my reasoning:
 

• There is no restriction that only Heroes can use command abilities, only where you check the source of the command ability.  This is covered with:
  •  Designer's Commentary, pg 4, right column, first question.
    • Q: Some command abilities refer to a model ‘using’ a command ability. What does this mean exactly?
      A: It means that when you use the command ability, you must pick that model as the one that the command ability is measured from. In the core rules, the model that a command ability is measured from is the model that is using that command ability
  • pg 228 of the core rules. Under Command Abilities, first sentence.
    • "If you have any HEROES in your army, you can use command abilities."
    • What are considered the "core command abilities" are also all listed and clearly state they must be measured from a HERO.
• Leave None Alive has no condition that you measure from a HERO,  only a DAEMON model.
  • pg 80 of the Blades of Khorne battletome, under Command Ability.
    • Leave None Alive:  Fluff text removed
      "You can use this command ability at the start of the combat phase. If you do so, pick 1 friendly REAPERS OF VENGEANCE DAEMON unit wholly within 8" of a friendly DAEMON model with this command ability. After that unit has fought in the combat phase for the first time, if it is within 3" of an enemy unit it can immediately make a pile-in move and then attack with all of the melee weapons it is armed with for a second time."

 

Please help me find a restriction because if it's legal, this is absolutely game changing for us.

EDIT: Added clarification written after @Troll.exe's post.

Edited October 9, 2019 by AresX8

[Troll.exe]

1 hour ago, AresX8 said:

I have a feeling I might have been playing Reapers of Vengeance wrong this entire time. Specifically, with Leave None Alive and it not requiring a Hero in order to use it.  Here's my reasoning:
 

Please help me find a restriction because if it's legal, this is absolutely game changing for us.

So I’ve been scrolling through core rules, GHB19, erratas and designers commentary thinking “oh yea that’d be nice, I’ll find that restriction soon though”. I’ve drawn a blank. I’ve had page 57 of GHB19 referenced to me but that doesn’t actually work and at this point it’s too much of a can of worms to take any further with that group so I’ve left it at that. 

Feels like it could be something that might need to be addressed in a designers commentary. 

 

[AresX8]

22 minutes ago, Troll.exe said:

So I’ve been scrolling through core rules, GHB19, erratas and designers commentary thinking “oh yea that’d be nice, I’ll find that restriction soon though”. I’ve drawn a blank. I’ve had page 57 of GHB19 referenced to me but that doesn’t actually work and at this point it’s too much of a can of worms to take any further with that group so I’ve left it at that. 

Feels like it could be something that might need to be addressed in a designers commentary. 

 

Let me make a clarification: 

I am not suggesting that you don't need a Hero in your list period to use command abilities, that's very clear cut (besides, that'd be a rather weak list). What I'm saying is that you don't need to measure Leave None Alive from a Daemon Hero, only a Daemon model.

[Troll.exe]

27 minutes ago, AresX8 said:

Let me make a clarification: 

I am not suggesting that you don't need a Hero in your list period to use command abilities, that's very clear cut (besides, that'd be a rather weak list). What I'm saying is that you don't need to measure Leave None Alive from a Daemon Hero, only a Daemon model.

Yes that was my interpretation of your original post. (60 bloodletters sitting on my shelf would love this). 

I might look into it from a different angle. See if there’s any clarification around the command ability only being given to daemon heroes within the slaughterhost. Rather then looking for “Only heroes can use command abilities”.

 

[Troll.exe]

@AresX8 I think it might actually be legal. I found a similar discussion where an email was sent to GW faq on the topic and we’ve had two erratas since then.

 

[Smooth criminal]

On 10/9/2019 at 3:08 PM, Blisterfeet said:

Hi again does anyone have any math hammer for Khorne units? I'm trying to compare which of these units is 'better' Vs 4+ save units for my goretide list. Any help appreciated.

(not looking for any other suggestions just these below)

10 Flesh hounds

20 Blood warriors

10 Wrathmongers 

3 Varanguard (allied in)

20 Splinterfang (allied in)

Unbuffed against 4+
10 dogs ~6-7w
20 warriors ~8w
10 mongers ~8-9w, ~12w with charge
Each buff adds 15-50% depending on buff and unit

Varanguard have terrible combat math and you can't mark them for buffs.
Same for splinterfangs.

[Blisterfeet]

20 minutes ago, Smooth criminal said:

Unbuffed against 4+
10 dogs ~6-7w
20 warriors ~8w
10 mongers ~8-9w, ~12w with charge
Each buff adds 15-50% depending on buff and unit

Varanguard have terrible combat math and you can't mark them for buffs.
Same for splinterfangs.

Thanks for this, between dogs and mongers then. 

Does this maths include likely mortal wound output of the mongers/warriors?

[AresX8]

@Troll.exe I've been digging through other battletomes and I found that Beasts of Chaos Gavespawn and Sylvaneth Ironbark have command abilities tied to their equivalent of Slaughterhosts with the same exact wording as how our Slaughterhosts work (ie all units gain the associated keyword and therefore gain all the abilities tied to the Slaughterhost). I'm comfortable with saying this is legal."

EDIT:
 

16 minutes ago, Blisterfeet said:

Thanks for this, between dogs and mongers then. 

Does this maths include likely mortal wound output of the mongers/warriors?

Also keep in mind that Blood Warriors do damage when they die too (well, only in the combat phase), which will definitely skew the math in their favor.

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by AresX8