AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Smooth criminal]

3 hours ago, ledha said:

How ? They kept the same damage output as before while going down 40 pts and doing aoe MW when they die.  And no one would have dare before to say they weren't main fighters.

They outlive and outdamage pretty much every other unit of their cost (they hit nearly as hard as brutes/paladins/blightkings), while being easy to use (2" range) and having an incredible support role in addition of this (and not in replacement)

I mean, for 5 wrathmongers, you can get 10 stormvermin, namaarti thralls or grimghast. None of them have the resilience and damage output of the wrathmongers, and bring nothing to the table for the rest of the army.

Yeah. Mongers seem very efficient stat-wise.

I think they are our best unit to use in a big brick. 10 dudes is a 30 wounds for 280pt that attack with long reach.

I think the bloodforged battalion is very underrated. Not for the ability, but for the unit composition.  You slap Skarr (who btw is our best mobility option for objective grabs) on top and run your 2x10 warriors 2x10 mongers forward to sit on objectives and what's opponent gonna do against that? It's a lot of wounds and attacks fighting in 2 rows with rows being independent units and they all do damage on death. It's also pretty cheap compared to our other compositions so you can have some harder hitting hammer units behind that ready to commit whenever.

[Sleboda]

5 hours ago, ChaosLord said:

Why doesn't anyone use Skarbrand?

I used him in about four games. He has the normal bloodthirster problem of bring very squishy, but costs more, can't be customized, and is less mobile.

For 400 points, you can get a lot more out of some flesh hounds, Bloodletters and bloodcrushers.

[Sleboda]

4 hours ago, Smooth criminal said:

I have no GW response, but RAW it's "on 6s to wound" and the "don't make wound roll" after you made the roll already is nonsense rules-wise, so we have to live with "mws on 6 to wound" until they maybe update faq.

That's how I am playing it as well - RAW.

Thanks.

[TheArborealWalrus]

6 hours ago, Kaz said:

However, I’m interested to know: how do you run and charge with him? 

Whoops! Re-roll charges. I remember thinking that it was situationally useful (summons), just the wrong one.  Shows you how often I use my thirster. 😛 

5 hours ago, ChaosLord said:

Why doesn't anyone use Skarbrand?

The other khorne player at the club often uses him in his bloodthirster formation. His biggest problem is that he's slow and susceptible to alpha strikes/ just getting stabbed a bunch.

6 hours ago, Kaz said:

Do you feel Skullfiend Tribe was a little unnecessary? 

Not at all. I use the faction groups (forgot the official label) for the unique artifacts that aren't bound to anything but khorne.  Like I said, it felt like all my units had a natural re-roll 1. Even with armies without a lot of heroes, they typically keep them close enough to the action to proc the ability. It purely helped the blood warriors and wrathmongers, whilst also helping the skullreapers against heroes and smaller units. The command ability things are just extra bonuses to me. I only have used the goretide's ability twice ever with the new book, so I didn't really feel the loss of no khorgies.

6 hours ago, Kaz said:

I feel that the Insensate Rage needs some way of buffing his hit rolls to better fish for sixes

That's fair. This list was all about the ridiculous # of skullreapers and then I decided to use the last 300pts on the thirster. If I had been building it around the thirster then I might have taken a deeper look at the daemon artifacts (I have almost no experience with our daemonic kin), but everything in the list is designed to be reasonably self sufficient if I need to just huck them at something. I figured the most reliable way to do that with the thirster was to just slap additional attacks on the guy. Plus more chances for explosions! More explosions is always best. I'd have liked to boost his hit rolls (man, would that be murderous) with a slaughter priest, but like I said, this one was about the reapers. Thinking about reducing the 10 man reapers into a priest and … something worth 80pts. Not sure how I feel about it. Thoughts?

[pollo1126]

I don't own the bok battletome and get my info from the 1d4chan page (don't judge I don't have that much money to fling around). The slaughterborn battalion isn't there so could someone explain what it does? Thanks

[Retro]

48 minutes ago, pollo1126 said:

I don't own the bok battletome and get my info from the 1d4chan page (don't judge I don't have that much money to fling around). The slaughterborn battalion isn't there so could someone explain what it does? Thanks

Reduces incoming rend by 1 in melee. It is pretty good, plus has skull reapers (awesome) and bloodwarriors (less awesome but good and we need battleline anyway)

[Zamik]

46 minutes ago, pollo1126 said:

I don't own the bok battletome and get my info from the 1d4chan page (don't judge I don't have that much money to fling around). The slaughterborn battalion isn't there so could someone explain what it does? Thanks

Slaughterborn consists of an Exalted Deathbringer, 2-4 units of Skullreapers, and (I think) 1-3 units of Blood Warriors.  It reduces the rend characteristic of enemy melee weapon attacks against these units by 1 (-2 rend becomes -1, -1 becomes 0). The units do not have to be near each other to maintain this benefit (unlike some other battalions). It's 180 points to take, but very useful if you're running a lot of those units anyway.

[Biboune]

Hi, i would like to play a 2000pts list with 3 Bloodthirsters and Tyrants of blood battalion.

The idea is having the Bloodlords Ost in order to take the Halo of Blood on the Unfettered Fury so the opponent can't disengage to avoid my ability to strike first, the Warth of Khorne would use his command ability to improve the Insansate Rage hit chances.

I don't think that I'll buy new models; I am a slow painter. Painted: I have a slaughter priest, a bloodsecrator, 30 bloodletters, 3 bloodchrushers, 10 flesh hounds, 5 wathmongers, a demon prince, a bloodmaster. Unpainted, I have 5 more Fleshounds, Karanak, 20 (let's say 15 thanks to the shadespire band) bloodereavers, 3 more bloodcrushers.

I have 2 lists in mind:

Allegiance: Khorne
 - Slaughterhost: The Bloodlords
LEADERS
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster (320) - General - Artefact :  The Crimson Crown  
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage (280)
Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury (300) - Artefact :  Halo of Blood  
Bloodsecrator (140)
Slaughterpriest (100)
UNITS
30 x Bloodletters (300) -  Gore Drenched Icon
5 x Flesh Hounds (100)
5 x Flesh Hounds (100)
5 x Flesh Hounds (100)
10 x Bloodreavers (70) - Meatripper Axes
BATTALIONS
Tyrants of Blood (140)
ENDLESS SPELLS
Hexgorger Skulls (40)
TOTAL: 1990/2000     EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1     WOUNDS: 123

 

and

 

- Slaughterhost: The Bloodlords
LEADERS
Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury (300) - General - Command Trait : Slaughterer's Thirst  - Artefact :  Halo of Blood  
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage (280)
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster (320) - Artefact :  The Crimson Crown  
Bloodsecrator (140)
UNITS
30 x Bloodletters (300) -  Gore Drenched Icon
5 x Flesh Hounds (100)
5 x Flesh Hounds (100)
6 x Bloodcrushers (280)
BATTALIONS
Tyrants of Blood (140)
TOTAL: 1960/2000     EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1     WOUNDS: 121

 

I would like to know what would be the best option in order to prioritise my painting.

The first one has more dispells, more units to give Blood tides, the second has better tanking thanks to the bloodcrusher (I love those models, but I can play them in other lists)

Edited May 21, 2019 by Biboune

[ChaosLord]

Second list lacks a priest so no prayers, blood blessings or judgements. Doesn't seem like a great trade-off. In the first list you already have a lot of unbinding so maybe get the Icon judgement instead of Skulls.

Edited May 22, 2019 by ChaosLord

[Kaz]

20 hours ago, Smooth criminal said:

Yeah, I think  dogs and warriors currently make better frontline than letters. Letters are good second line hammer unit and a good summon.

Agree with this. The Bloodletters may not be able to take a charge as well as a blood warrior, but imo, compared to reavers, Bloodletters are far better as a countercharge unit/second line. They’ve still got decent damage, albeit somewhat random. 

20 hours ago, Battlefury said:

@Kaz@ledha

I see I do have a lot to learn

Why do i think Wrathmonger are supporters? Because wqith their 5+ save I won't let them run onto an enemy unit on their own. I would always screen them away, otherwise they will get smashed very easy.
In combination with their abilities, they do support other units pretty well.

That's why I would consider them support, and not main fighters. Of course they do solid damage, so therefore they are good supporters

Yep, agreed. Wrathmongers are a dedicated glass cannon that buffs your guys. You pretty much HAVE to protect them, but they are definitely meant to get stuck in. While Sneaky snufflers for Gitz sit around sniffing and getting high on mushrooms, Wrathmongers want to get in the thick of it. I like them because MSUs provide blood Tithe, make amazing support, and are incredible suicide units. Sure, they only deal MWs now, unlike their previous incarnation, but that means quite a lot in Age of Ethereal Amulet VLOZD, and heck, this means that the solution to mongers isn’t as easy as “Throw cheap chaff at them”, unlike last time. 

As far as main damage is concerned, it’s same with reapers. While reapers are tougher, you’re still gonna screen and protect them. Same with mongers. 

Hence why I can foresee lists that use Bloodforged monger lists could do some work. Skullreapers are amazing, but we don’t always have to use them. 

16 hours ago, TheArborealWalrus said:

Whoops! Re-roll charges. I remember thinking that it was situationally useful (summons), just the wrong one.  Shows you how often I use my thirster. 😛 

The other khorne player at the club often uses him in his bloodthirster formation. His biggest problem is that he's slow and susceptible to alpha strikes/ just getting stabbed a bunch.

Not at all. I use the faction groups (forgot the official label) for the unique artifacts that aren't bound to anything but khorne.  Like I said, it felt like all my units had a natural re-roll 1. Even with armies without a lot of heroes, they typically keep them close enough to the action to proc the ability. It purely helped the blood warriors and wrathmongers, whilst also helping the skullreapers against heroes and smaller units. The command ability things are just extra bonuses to me. I only have used the goretide's ability twice ever with the new book, so I didn't really feel the loss of no khorgies.

That's fair. This list was all about the ridiculous # of skullreapers and then I decided to use the last 300pts on the thirster. If I had been building it around the thirster then I might have taken a deeper look at the daemon artifacts (I have almost no experience with our daemonic kin), but everything in the list is designed to be reasonably self sufficient if I need to just huck them at something. I figured the most reliable way to do that with the thirster was to just slap additional attacks on the guy. Plus more chances for explosions! More explosions is always best. I'd have liked to boost his hit rolls (man, would that be murderous) with a slaughter priest, but like I said, this one was about the reapers. Thinking about reducing the 10 man reapers into a priest and … something worth 80pts. Not sure how I feel about it. Thoughts?

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage imo is an amazing boi because firstly, his model is amazing. Secondly, he’s really nice to fit comfortably into a list, esp at 280. 

My only problem about stacking attacks on the Bloodthirster is that hitting on 4s is a pain, imo. Personally I feel that the more hits you can push through, the more chances for more explosions. If you want, you could keep crowncleaver and master decapitator on the Bloodthirster, just buff him with killing frenzy and voila, 7–9 attacks at 3+ to hit rerolling ones!

I like your mentality about Skullfiend tribe! it’s very interesting now that I think about it. 

As far as Skullreapers go, I’d say the sweet spot is 10-15. For 80 point models, there are quite a few nice ones. I really like the Exalted Deathbringer or Skullgrinder, but out of all of them, I’d grab a Bloodstoker to fill 80. This is because your list has got natural re-roll hits, but no natural re-roll wounds. The stoker can help with that actually. Plus w/o Goretide, the stoker helps with threat extension which is very helpful

[Smooth criminal]

12 hours ago, Biboune said:

I would like to know what would be the best option in order to prioritise my painting.

The first one has more dispells, more units to give Blood tides, the second has better tanking thanks to the bloodcrusher (I love those models, but I can play them in other lists)

Personally I think priest is a must have, even more so than bloodsecrator in general (of course you also need bloodsecrator because of letter brick). That is if you have a shrine model. Without shrine you may drop him.

Out of those 2 lists I would pick the first one (provided you have shrine), but swap reavers+10pt for a bloodmaster. Your letter brick needs a hero near it all the time for locus and battleshock ignore CP ability.

 

I would try to go for Tyrants + Murderhost so you have an artifact for all you thirsters and a low drop count. Don't see how it's possible to fit it here without dropping either priest or letters to 20 though.

[Battlefury]

Played vs Slaanesh today.

Here are the lists:

1 Masque
1 Concorted Epi
20 Demonettes
20 Demonettes
6 Fiends

vs

1 Skullgrinder as General with Slaughterborn and Mark of the Destroyer
1 Slaughterpriest with Killing Frenzy
1 Bloodstoker
1 Exalted DB

5 Blood Warriors
5 Blood Warriors
5 Flesh Hounds
5 Skullreapers
5 Skullreaper
1 Khorgorath
1 Khorgorath

Thoughts:

1. Locus sucks.
2. Exploding dice at demonettes, rend weapons, run & charge for 110 points...
3. Fiends do dmg based on hp of the enemy models, letting you substr. 1 from hit & wound if 4 or more ( as it seems )
4. Concorted epi got 2+ save after save vs MW
5. Masque does a lot of hits...
6. in generell the buffs are pretty hardcore

My fazit:

Just.No.

Sry for being that pesimistic right now, but the more comparisons I get, the more BoK sucks.

Models, that i do own in generell:

1 Blood Thirster of insensate rage
1 Bloodsecrator
1 Bloodstoker
1 Slaughterpriest
1 Skullgrinder
1 Skarr Bloodwrath
1 Aspiring DB
1 Exalted DB
1 Mighty Lord of Khorne / Khorghos Khul
1 Chaos Lord on manticore / Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore
1 Karanak

10 Bloodletters
3 Bloodcrushers
5 Flesh Hounds
40 Blood Warriors, 35 there with Gore Fists
20 Skullreapers
5 Wrathmongers
10 Marauder Horsemen
6 Khorgorath

Questio, asked today ( cynical )  :"When exactly did Slaanesh turn into everything that would be Khorne plus magic?"

[Reuben Parker]

Slaanesh have massive weaknesses I just think people need to play vs them more. They normally have a very low wound count generally around 110 in a 2k game with a lot of those being 5+.

10 wrathmongers with Skarr Bloodwrath is 400 points and will do unbuffed 10 MW and circa 14 -1 wounds when your opponent kills them. This can be made a lot more scary once they get bonuses (if you charged with killing frenzy now 2+ to hit and stoker can give full re roll on wounds it’s suddenly 10MW and around 30 -1 wounds). To the point where in death they will easily kill as many points of slaanesh as they cost just when they die. Or when buffed you can kill 2 KoS just on your death blows.

Big units of blood warriors although less good will do similar things (although not as good dmg and scream for a blood stoker re roll). 

Then I think Khorne needs to add some flying into its lists either through allies or the hero slots. In general this is needed for playing the objectives game but also against slaanesh so you can hunt down the smaller backfield heroes to shut down summoning. 

[Impa]

12 minutes ago, Battlefury said:

Played vs Slaanesh today.

Here are the lists:

1 Masque
1 Concorted Epi
20 Demonettes
20 Demonettes
6 Fiends

vs

1 Skullgrinder as General with Slaughterborn and Mark of the Destroyer
1 Slaughterpriest with Killing Frenzy
1 Bloodstoker
1 Exalted DB

5 Blood Warriors
5 Blood Warriors
5 Flesh Hounds
5 Skullreapers
5 Skullreaper
1 Khorgorath
1 Khorgorath

Thoughts:

1. Locus sucks.
2. Exploding dice at demonettes, rend weapons, run & charge for 110 points...
3. Fiends do dmg based on hp of the enemy models, letting you substr. 1 from hit & wound if 4 or more ( as it seems )
4. Concorted epi got 2+ save after save vs MW
5. Masque does a lot of hits...
6. in generell the buffs are pretty hardcore

My fazit:

Just.No.

Sry for being that pesimistic right now, but the more comparisons I get, the more BoK sucks.

Models, that i do own in generell:

1 Blood Thirster of insensate rage
1 Bloodsecrator
1 Bloodstoker
1 Slaughterpriest
1 Skullgrinder
1 Skarr Bloodwrath
1 Aspiring DB
1 Exalted DB
1 Mighty Lord of Khorne / Khorghos Khul
1 Chaos Lord on manticore / Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore
1 Karanak

10 Bloodletters
3 Bloodcrushers
5 Flesh Hounds
40 Blood Warriors, 35 there with Gore Fists
20 Skullreapers
5 Wrathmongers
10 Marauder Horsemen
6 Khorgorath

Questio, asked today ( cynical )  :"When exactly did Slaanesh turn into everything that would be Khorne plus magic?"

Have you tried bloodforged? I had great fun running 2x skull grinders. 2x5 wrathmongers. 1x10 skullreapers 1x5 skullreapers. 10 x bw 5xbw 10xreavers. 2xpriests. 1x stoker (dedicated to 10x reapers) 1xbloodsecrator. Wrath axe and skulls. I essentially just screen my front line with reavers and warriors. Let them get charged or charge them in to hold up what I want to hit with my reapers. Wrathmongers are support until you can get them positioned to double attack with the battalion if you can fit the grinders within range. The grinders are a pretty sweet hammer for 80 points. Making one the general with hew the foe and amberglaive gives them 2/2/-1/3inch range/4 damage... and if you have a hero or whatever in range of his ability for another D3 damage. it’s quite hilarious.  And I tuck him in with the bloodsecrator and unit of mongers behind skull reapers and a screen of whatever battleline. You can’t always keep things wholly within but when it works it works... this of course if your hero’s dont get picked off. I literally go into every game expecting to be crushed but things have just been clicking for me lately. Especially against my nemesis evocators. My opponent can’t quite do what he wants to anymore as I’ve learned to just screen my heroes and elite troops as best as possible. Sacrificing the screen. Skullreapers tear them to shreds once they get the chance. Every table top set up. Scenario. Opponent is different. But I’ve personally been enjoying my Khorne lists lately. Skullreapers are the best thing outside of bloodthirsters. I’ve been loving my tyrants list. But it’s nice to change things up. 10x reapers and 10x mongers I put in every list I’ve been successful with thus far. I think they are an auto include as well as at least one priest. Bloodsecrator and stoker I also just can’t seem to drop outside of a tyrants list. They offer too much to the mortal lists not to bring along. And if your going to try bloodforged I’d recommend 2 grinders.  if your opponent knows what’s going on with your battalions they’ll just pick that dude off. Same with gorepilgrims. I don’t bother anymore as the bloodsecrator just gets focused on. And it’s a waste of points once he’s gone... so i stepped away from that personally. Tyrants of blood though. You can spread your damage dealers out with the right list. Same with bloodforged I find. Slaughterborn is nice which I may try here shortly as it offers a passive ability army wide and I’d love to try a huge skullreaper list. Anyways best of luck on your future games. You have a lot of models to play around with! 

[ChaosLord]

1 hour ago, Impa said:

Have you tried bloodforged? I had great fun running 2x skull grinders. 2x5 wrathmongers. 1x10 skullreapers 1x5 skullreapers. 10 x bw 5xbw 10xreavers. 2xpriests. 1x stoker (dedicated to 10x reapers) 1xbloodsecrator. Wrath axe and skulls. I essentially just screen my front line with reavers and warriors. Let them get charged or charge them in to hold up what I want to hit with my reapers. Wrathmongers are support until you can get them positioned to double attack with the battalion if you can fit the grinders within range. The grinders are a pretty sweet hammer for 80 points. Making one the general with hew the foe and amberglaive gives them 2/2/-1/3inch range/4 damage... and if you have a hero or whatever in range of his ability for another D3 damage. it’s quite hilarious.  And I tuck him in with the bloodsecrator and unit of mongers behind skull reapers and a screen of whatever battleline. You can’t always keep things wholly within but when it works it works... this of course if your hero’s dont get picked off. I literally go into every game expecting to be crushed but things have just been clicking for me lately. Especially against my nemesis evocators. My opponent can’t quite do what he wants to anymore as I’ve learned to just screen my heroes and elite troops as best as possible. Sacrificing the screen. Skullreapers tear them to shreds once they get the chance. Every table top set up. Scenario. Opponent is different. But I’ve personally been enjoying my Khorne lists lately. Skullreapers are the best thing outside of bloodthirsters. I’ve been loving my tyrants list. But it’s nice to change things up. 10x reapers and 10x mongers I put in every list I’ve been successful with thus far. I think they are an auto include as well as at least one priest. Bloodsecrator and stoker I also just can’t seem to drop outside of a tyrants list. They offer too much to the mortal lists not to bring along. And if your going to try bloodforged I’d recommend 2 grinders.  if your opponent knows what’s going on with your battalions they’ll just pick that dude off. Same with gorepilgrims. I don’t bother anymore as the bloodsecrator just gets focused on. And it’s a waste of points once he’s gone... so i stepped away from that personally. Tyrants of blood though. You can spread your damage dealers out with the right list. Same with bloodforged I find. Slaughterborn is nice which I may try here shortly as it offers a passive ability army wide and I’d love to try a huge skullreaper list. Anyways best of luck on your future games. You have a lot of models to play around with! 

I don't have my book in front of me, but I thought Bloodforged specified one Skullgrinder. I didn't think you could include more than one in the battalion. Of course you could have an extra Skullgrinder not in the battalion, but it couldn't trigger the Wrathmongers 2nd pile in attacks. I could be wrong here, but that's my interpretation of RAW. I'd love to hear that I'm wrong here though.

[Impa]

46 minutes ago, ChaosLord said:

I don't have my book in front of me, but I thought Bloodforged specified one Skullgrinder. I didn't think you could include more than one in the battalion. Of course you could have an extra Skullgrinder not in the battalion, but it couldn't trigger the Wrathmongers 2nd pile in attacks. I could be wrong here, but that's my interpretation of RAW. I'd love to hear that I'm wrong here though.

Hmmm yes you are correct. Says from the same battalion. Well that blows! I didn’t get to try it with both grinders I brought in the games I played on the weekend. I couldnt seem to get them both where I wanted them to keep everything wholly within. I had high hopes for it though! They’re still a great utility I think for the 80 points as general. But not worth it now that you point that out maybe. I guess I’ll swap in an aspiring DB or another stoker to support the reapers. Thanks for that. Really glad this thread is here to keep correcting my stupidity! 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Impa

[ChaosLord]

2 minutes ago, Impa said:

Hmmm yes you are correct. Says from the same battalion. Well that blows! I didn’t get to try it with both grinders I brought in the games I played on the weekend. I couldnt seem to get them both where I wanted them to keep everything wholly within. I had high hopes for it though! They’re still a great utility I think for the 80 points as general. But not worth it now that you point that out maybe. I guess I’ll swap in an aspiring DB or another stoker to support the reapers. Thanks for that. Really glad this thread is here to keep correcting my stupidity! 

Ha, glad to help. It's a complicated game so don't be too hard on yourself. I have a lot to learn...

[Impa]

1 hour ago, ChaosLord said:

Ha, glad to help. It's a complicated game so don't be too hard on yourself. I have a lot to learn...

Well thanks I appreciate it! I think I’m  going to throw in an Exalted DB in there keep him by the skullgrinder general. See what kind of shenanigans the pair can get up to. 

[Gibs]

BoK are not the only ones having trouble with our new Slaanesh overlords haha....

Its early days and I am sure the meta will evolve. However, if there was a culprit it feels like depravity is slightly over tuned.

Depravity

"Each time a friendly SLAANESH HERO inflicts a wound or mortal wound by an attack or spell (and is not negated) on an enemy model, but that model is not slain by that wound you receive 1 depravity point. Also, every time a wound or mortal wound is inflicted on a friendly SLAANESH HERO but that model are not slain by that wound (and is not negated) you receive 1 depravity point. Depending on which host you belong to, you can generate more through other means."

If you are playing Slannesh why would you not run as many multi-wound heroes as possible in a competitive list? They not only gain depravity from dealing damage they also get it for basically every wound they lose minus the last one as wound are allocated one at a time.

Example:

Keeper of Secrets (14 wounds), to summon a Keeper of Secrets (30 depravity)

Assumption: you don't have access to abilities that can instantly remove the model without them taking wounds (obviously this is the best case scenario nuff said)

Best case scenario

Snipe the Keeper from range inflicting 14 wounds before it can get into combat. Depravity = 13 = 43%  value

Note: this also assume the Slaanesh player does not get a chance to heal any wounds

Tie the Keeper up with single wound models. Depravity = wounds lost = 0-13 = 0-43% depravity value (easier said than done as they output a huge number of wounds per turn)

Conservative scenario

Keeper is going to get into combat against a multiple wound unit and attack first......its very hard to stop this happening with your average army. Even when wounded the Keeper is still going to output some damage before eventually going down:

Deals 5 wounds (4 depravity) + wounds taken (13 depravity) = 17 = 57% value

In this scenario you are over halfway to summoning a second Keeper and you have only lost one unit and probably inflicted some damage. Then what about the other 3-5 Slaanesh heroes in the board?

Not uncommon scenario 

Keeper charges into a monster, strikes first and murders then before any return attacks (with all the rules and buffs there are not many monsters that want to be fighting a Keeper in combat)

13 wounds (12 depravity) = 40% value

Opponent charges in on there turn and between shooting magix and combat the Keeper does not quite go down

10 wounds taken ( 10 depravity) = 33% value

In your turn you heal some wounds (up to 7), strike first and only deal 5 damage due to bracketing

6 wounds (3 depravity, as they were only 2 wound models) = 10% value

Opponent strikes back and kills the Keeper (6 depravity) = 20% value

Total value from depravity 12+10+3+6 = 31  = 103% value

Then factor in any passive depravity generation on top of this........

Obviously, every scenario is different but I am coming to grips with is that its not hard for a Slaanesh player to run as many multi-wound hero models as possible and even under less the ideal scenarios still generate enough depravity to summon multiple hero units that then also can generate depravity. I have now had games where 30 depravity points have been generated by the start of my opponents second turn which means a third Keeper is now on the table before I can respond.............if the game had continued he probably could have summoned at least 1-2 more.

The counter argument is, why allow the Slaanesh player to generate so much depravity? Well the simple truth is that outside of specific armies and tailoring lists its very very hard to accomplish - you not only have to control the battle against a really agile and fast army you have to finish fights quickly (basically get everything your way and make zero mistakes). Its also not practical to take hordes of single wound models, just in case you are playing against Slannesh..... and even then Slaanesh heroes are still generating great value for losing wounds while outputting extreme levels of damage. Yes, the Slaanesh army might have a low wound count...but that is a false argument as the rate at which they generate depravity actually inflates the wounds available over the course of a battle by an absurd amount.....our group is basically at the point where "if" the Slaanesh player gets a charge with a Keeper on a multi wound unit its game over. By the time you finish the rounds of combat either you just lost the whole unit or so much depravity has been generated that the Keeper basically pays for itself.......its game warping and not everything can or wants to play a full gun-line or has 150+ single wound models. 

SO back to the above, even though Blood Warriors and Wraithmongers deal damage after death, its not the first hero you have to worry about its the next 2 keepers that get summoned from depravity that break your back. Both those units are multi-wound so they are generating depravity on death also. 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Gibs

[Smooth criminal]

 

 

 

2

9 hours ago, Battlefury said:

Questio, asked today ( cynical )  :"When exactly did Slaanesh turn into everything that would be Khorne plus magic?"

Meh. I feel like the Keeper and Epitome are super pushed, everything else they have is weak. And their summoning is game breakingly good.

Technically letters&reapers also have exploding 6s, except our 6s explode into mws.

Slaanesh is fast, but they are also 5+ across the board. I have no idea how they play against any competent shooting with their reliance on heroes.

 

The only place where Khorne got really screwed in relation to other gods is hard split between mortals and demons. Feels like they should be part of same list, but they have very little synergy.

[phizzco]

1 hour ago, Gibs said:

BoK are not the only ones having trouble with our new Slaanesh overlords haha....

Its early days and I am sure the meta will evolve. However, if there was a culprit it feels like depravity is slightly over tuned.

Depravity

"Each time a friendly SLAANESH HERO inflicts a wound or mortal wound by an attack or spell (and is not negated) on an enemy model, but that model is not slain by that wound you receive 1 depravity point. Also, every time a wound or mortal wound is inflicted on a friendly SLAANESH HERO but that model are not slain by that wound (and is not negated) you receive 1 depravity point. Depending on which host you belong to, you can generate more through other means."

If you are playing Slannesh why would you not run as many multi-wound heroes as possible in a competitive list? They not only gain depravity from dealing damage they also get it for basically every wound they lose minus the last one as wound are allocated one at a time.

Example:

Keeper of Secrets (14 wounds), to summon a Keeper of Secrets (30 depravity)

Assumption: you don't have access to abilities that can instantly remove the model without them taking wounds (obviously this is the best case scenario nuff said)

Best case scenario

Snipe the Keeper from range inflicting 14 wounds before it can get into combat. Depravity = 13 = 43%  value

Note: this also assume the Slaanesh player does not get a chance to heal any wounds

Tie the Keeper up with single wound models. Depravity = wounds lost = 0-13 = 0-43% depravity value (easier said than done as they output a huge number of wounds per turn)

Conservative scenario

Keeper is going to get into combat against a multiple wound unit and attack first......its very hard to stop this happening with your average army. Even when wounded the Keeper is still going to output some damage before eventually going down:

Deals 5 wounds (4 depravity) + wounds taken (13 depravity) = 17 = 57% value

In this scenario you are over halfway to summoning a second Keeper and you have only lost one unit and probably inflicted some damage. Then what about the other 3-5 Slaanesh heroes in the board?

Not uncommon scenario 

Keeper charges into a monster, strikes first and murders then before any return attacks (with all the rules and buffs there are not many monsters that want to be fighting a Keeper in combat)

13 wounds (12 depravity) = 40% value

Opponent charges in on there turn and between shooting magix and combat the Keeper does not quite go down

10 wounds taken ( 10 depravity) = 33% value

In your turn you heal some wounds (up to 7), strike first and only deal 5 damage due to bracketing

6 wounds (3 depravity, as they were only 2 wound models) = 10% value

Opponent strikes back and kills the Keeper (6 depravity) = 20% value

Total value from depravity 12+10+3+6 = 31  = 103% value

Then factor in any passive depravity generation on top of this........

Obviously, every scenario is different but I am coming to grips with is that its not hard for a Slaanesh player to run as many multi-wound hero models as possible and even under less the ideal scenarios still generate enough depravity to summon multiple hero units that then also can generate depravity. I have now had games where 30 depravity points have been generated by the start of my opponents second turn which means a third Keeper is now on the table before I can respond.............if the game had continued he probably could have summoned at least 1-2 more.

The counter argument is, why allow the Slaanesh player to generate so much depravity? Well the simple truth is that outside of specific armies and tailoring lists its very very hard to accomplish - you not only have to control the battle against a really agile and fast army you have to finish fights quickly (basically get everything your way and make zero mistakes). Its also not practical to take hordes of single wound models, just in case you are playing against Slannesh..... and even then Slaanesh heroes are still generating great value for losing wounds while outputting extreme levels of damage. Yes, the Slaanesh army might have a low wound count...but that is a false argument as the rate at which they generate depravity actually inflates the wounds available over the course of a battle by an absurd amount.....our group is basically at the point where "if" the Slaanesh player gets a charge with a Keeper on a multi wound unit its game over. By the time you finish the rounds of combat either you just lost the whole unit or so much depravity has been generated that the Keeper basically pays for itself.......its game warping and not everything can or wants to play a full gun-line or has 150+ single wound models. 

SO back to the above, even though Blood Warriors and Wraithmongers deal damage after death, its not the first hero you have to worry about its the next 2 keepers that get summoned from depravity that break your back. Both those units are multi-wound so they are generating depravity on death also. 

 

 

I'd imagine this stuff will be re-tuned. If not i'll.... just not play with people that play slaanesh lul. I dont have any friends right now that play them so I don't have much exposure.

[Gibs]

45 minutes ago, phizzco said:

I'd imagine this stuff will be re-tuned. If not i'll.... just not play with people that play slaanesh lul. I dont have any friends right now that play them so I don't have much exposure.

I feel like depravity should reward good decision making more than it does now. Put simply, Slaanesh heroes earn too many depravity points for taking damage. The easiest solution is just to adjust the summoning points costs once the meta  stabilizes (assuming it needs tweaking). However, I think the culprit is that its just easy to throw Slaanesh heroes into multi-wound models and win/lose the combat it really does not matter as you are going to be generating an absurd amount of depravity either-way. If you are sending in  Keeper you honestly cannot go wrong as they must be close to the best dueling heroes in the game and even if they get sniped its still generating nearly half its points in depravity. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Gibs
typos

[ChaosLord]

30 minutes ago, Gibs said:

I feel like depravity should reward good decision making more than it does now. Put simply, Slaanesh heroes earn too many depravity points for taking damage. The easiest solution is just to adjust the summoning points costs once the meta  stabilizes (assuming it needs tweaking). However, I think the culprit is that its just easy to throw Slaanesh heroes into multi-wound models and win/lose the combat it really does not matter as you are going to be generating an absurd amount of depravity either-way. If you are sending in  Keeper you honestly cannot go wrong as they must be close to the best dueling heroes in the game and even if they get sniped its still generating nearly half its points in depravity. 

Yeah, I feel like Blood Tithe is a lot more strategic. The really annoying thing about it is that we lose unspent points and they don't.

There are some parallels though. They get points for taking damage, and we get points for losing our own units. Also, the point system nudges our army compositions in a certain direction ... for us it's more toward MSU, and for them it seems to be toward using more big heroes.

[Gibs]

20 minutes ago, ChaosLord said:

Yeah, I feel like Blood Tithe is a lot more strategic. The really annoying thing about it is that we lose unspent points and they don't.

There are some parallels though. They get points for taking damage, and we get points for losing our own units. Also, the point system nudges our army compositions in a certain direction ... for us it's more toward MSU, and for them it seems to be toward using more big heroes.

I actually really like the idea of both Tithe and Depravity it feels right for the different chaos gods. Where depravity has gone wrong i simply in the testing stage, did they even run combat scenarios with units like the Keeper or are they just doing it to sell a tonne of models? 

My initial thought on testing would be to make make it so that every two wounds lost by Slaanesh heroes generate 1 depravity point. So a Keeper going down would only generate 6 not 13 wounds from damage it sustains. Damage it inflicts would remain the same to reward sounds decision making and tactics. If that wasn't enough I would then make it you cannot bank the remaining depravity after summoning a unit, however that might be a step too far. As it stands now from an 'all comers' perspective depravity is simply game warping which makes the Keeper too good for 360 points and anyone with half a brain is running two of them. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Gibs

[ChaosLord]

2 hours ago, Smooth criminal said:

The only place where Khorne got really screwed in relation to other gods is hard split between mortals and demons. Feels like they should be part of same list, but they have very little synergy.

Yes and no ... The Slaughterhost main abilities, allegiance artifacts and command traits, hero command abilities, and battallions are all split mortal/daemon. Bloodstoker's ability is also mortal only. Locus of Fury obviously is daemon only.

But all of these things are shared for all Khorne, and these are all really good things:

• Blood Tithe Rewards
• Blood Blessings
• Bloodsecrator's Rage of Khorne
• Banners of Khorne
• Wrathmonger's Crimson Haze

So not really a hard split per se, more like a soft split.  

I actually don't mind the way this system was designed. I just think some of the units are over-costed...