AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Poryague]

2 minutes ago, Impa said:

Oh haha wow. That’s crazy. Ok good to know. Well I guess either way as long as one isn’t effected by it. It should override it though? 

In order for all the bloodthirsters to attack then at least 1 needs to not have been hit by the locus.

[Poryague]

3 minutes ago, phizzco said:

I think we talked about this earlier but Tyrant's ability would neutralize Locus and make the units act as normal.

Tyrants does not neutralize locus. All it does is make the requiment to lock them down higher. They have to locus all bloodthirsters. That makes it significantly harder to stop the bloodthirster as your opponent has to locus all of them.  Its still a good strategy just be aware that it can still fail.

[Darksteve]

7 minutes ago, phizzco said:

I think we talked about this earlier but Tyrant's ability would neutralize Locus and make the units act as normal.

Incorrect. When locus effects the unit it does not have an ability that lets it strike first. Tyrants also does not let it strike "first" so it would let them strike immediately as the affect is applied after locus and takes precedence. 

[phizzco]

Sorry I'm thinking blood lords I guess, with the halo?

Edited May 14, 2019 by phizzco

[Poryague]

3 minutes ago, phizzco said:

Sorry I'm thinking blood lords I guess?

Blood lords has the activate at the beginning of combat artifact blood halo. What happens is locus and the blood halo cancel each other and you attack normally. However watch out for the contorted epitome. The epitome gets to use the locus but also has horrible fascination ability. The horrible fascination ability activates at the beginning of combat on a 4+ the enmy unit activates at the end of combat and hits all enemy units within 6 inches. If the model with halo of blood gets hit by both you will still be pushed to the end of combat. Just watch out for it and pay attention to your positioning.

[Impa]

11 hours ago, Poryague said:

In order for all the bloodthirsters to attack then at least 1 needs to not have been hit by the locus.

Yes I understood that. I haven’t faced them. I guess in my limited knowledge I didn’t realize it was just a ability not a spell. I see now it says every slaanesh hero can use this ability. And the greater hero’s get it off on a 2+ others 4+.  Damn! Well at least the WoK general gets two attempts to unbind the mirror in the enemy hero phase. So we don’t need to move closer to where they may want us. So do we get that add 2 to dispelling on both attempts? 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Impa

[Retro]

Does anyone else feel like this special weapons issue would be resolved if we had a points system reintroduced for them?

Like 1 in 10 bloodwarriors can take a glaive, but it costs X points, and obviously apply this to all units in all armies with special weapons. 

Edit: I am also aware that this would need to be more of an AoS 3.0 sort of fix, not an FAQ or errata.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Retro

[kozokus]

22 minutes ago, Retro said:

Does anyone else feel like this special weapons issue would be resolved if we had a points system reintroduced for them?

Would be a direct downgrade. The current system is an example of simplicity and elegance. Adding granularity in costing is overcomplexifing the game by a large margin. List correction are a nightmare in 40k. The only person made happy are list architects and rockinchair generals.

[Roark]

12 hours ago, Darksteve said:

If by "different" you mean bafflingly worse then sure. I love warriors I just think that the way they've been laid out in terms of special weapons and conditional abilities is weird when you look at a unit like sequitors for example

Can Sequitors be given 4 extra attacks each? Context is kinda important.

[Darksteve]

25 minutes ago, Roark said:

Can Sequitors be given 4 extra attacks each? Context is kinda important.

Sure can. Just spam the Celestial Vindicator command ability. But lets say youre completely correct and they cant. That leaves us with a 5 man sequitor unit having 7 of thier 3s, 3s rend -1 2 damage attacks with potential to reroll hits with no hero help and reroll saves of 1 all the time. For 120 points. Versus our 0 super weapon attacks because we cant take one on a 5 man unit at all. Now lets move to 10. We get 2 + 4 so 6(not sure where the 4th comes from, but I do forget stuff so ill assume you are correct.) 3s , 3s, rend 1, damage 2 versus 11 3s, 3s, rend 1, damage 2 with all the same buff for sequitors I mentioned up there. And they dont need a bevy of support heros to make it work. So context is important, however,  in context, I stand by my statement. Its baffling. 

I am genuinely curious where the last attack comes from. I can only thing of 3 sources off the top of my head: Bloodsecrator, Wrathmonger, Aspiring Deathbringer. Let me know what i missed.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Darksteve
Added a question

[Roark]

22 minutes ago, Darksteve said:

Just spam the Celestial Vindicator command ability.

You can't, per the Stormcast FAQ.

22 minutes ago, Darksteve said:

Let me know what i missed.

Bloodmad Warband.

We have a range of ways to buff their attacks.  Two of them are just always-on auras and, while the others are a little more costly, they can be used on other units too.

The army design has always been about support characters and networks of attacks buffs to some degree or another. Blood Warriors were designed with that in mind I think, right back from the very beginning.

I still wouldn't say no to a price drop of course. ;-)

[Darksteve]

8 minutes ago, Roark said:

You can't, per the Stormcast FAQ.

Bloodmad Warband.

We have a range of ways to buff their attacks.  Two of them are just always-on auras and, while the others are a little more costly, they can be used on other units too.

The army design has always been about support characters and networks of attacks buffs to some degree or another. Blood Warriors were designed with that in mind I think, right back from the very beginning.

I still wouldn't say no to a price drop of course. 😉

Ahh bloodmad warband. Thank you.

Yes I'm aware of the auras and how the buff are applied, but even with that in mind you seemed to miss addressing the central part of my math. Even with our buffs it doesnt check out how it stands. It comes down to the fact that the unit is in a very odd state when it comes to weapon and banner assignment. So yes a point drop would help, but I'd rather weapon availability disparities be fixed than the bandaid of "make it cheaper."

On another note why did we not get mount traits?

[MOMUS]

3 hours ago, kozokus said:

Would be a direct downgrade. The current system is an example of simplicity and elegance. Adding granularity in costing is overcomplexifing the game by a large margin. List correction are a nightmare in 40k. The only person made happy are list architects and rockinchair generals.

Simplicity and elegance lol others are just as likely to call it dumbed down and boring

The reason the points are the way they are is due to the community setting up a similar system before the first GHB. GW just followed, although they haven't improved the system much since. 

I wouldn't mind points for upgrades, does seem a bit odd that units with several different  loadouts all cost the same doesn't it?

[kozokus]

2 minutes ago, MOMUS said:

, does seem a bit odd that units with several different  loadouts all cost the same doesn't it?

No. Mostly because those different loadout do more or less the same thing or are at least target dependant. Contrary to 40k where some upgrades are more powerful than others.

5 minutes ago, MOMUS said:

others are just as likely to call it dumbed down and boring

Debatable. Yet I think people don't mind too much if list building is "boring" as long as the real game is not.

For my part, i find aos listbuilding extremely hard since you cannot grind points here and there. You have to make hard choices.

As fascinating as this discussion is, I don't think it belongs in the Khorne thread. Let's create another subject elsewhere and talks more about skulls and blood.

[Smooth criminal]

5 hours ago, Retro said:

Does anyone else feel like this special weapons issue would be resolved if we had a points system reintroduced for them?

Like 1 in 10 bloodwarriors can take a glaive, but it costs X points, and obviously apply this to all units in all armies with special weapons. 

Edit: I am also aware that this would need to be more of an AoS 3.0 sort of fix, not an FAQ or errata.

Special weapons are hostages of kit, not points. The kit has 1 glaive per 10 dudes so the unit is forever doomed to have 1 glaive per 10 dudes.

What they should've done is give glaive 2 more attacks to compensate.

 

And no, the points per special weapon is not a good idea. If glaive is limited to 1 per 10 dudes anyway then what's the point of having point cost of it? It is assumed that unit cost reflects their special weapons already.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Smooth criminal

[Warbossironteef]

21 hours ago, fwlr said:

Looks super solid. Really like the sound of this list.

 

Why not go all in, drop the skulls+ thirster down to an insensate rage then get 20 BW's. The extra bloodglaive is huge.

Yeah I would like to go to 20 but the MantiLord only works with an artifact and I dont want to run a Rage BT without a + to hit artefact. 4s to hit is too unreliable. 

The Unfettered Fury is the cheapest way to counter strike first or strike last shenanigans. I dont plan on him being the biggest beat stick in the world, more a utility piece with a 22 inch threat range. Which is why I'd stay at 1950 instead of bringing the Icon so I have more CPs.

I'd sell my souls for BWs to get more special weapons. It annoys me so much they wrote the rule that way.

[kozokus]

16 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

I would like to go to 20 but the MantiLord only works with an artifact

What is the hotness around the mantilord? I failed to see the real added value? what is the concerned artifact?

[Warbossironteef]

2 minutes ago, kozokus said:

What is the hotness around the mantilord? I failed to see the real added value? what is the concerned artifact?

The Lord on Manticore has 4 attack profiles, 2 of them are the rider's weapons. That means the Goretide Command Trait give plus +1 damage to two attack profiles. His main weapon lacks any rend, so you give him the Demsional Blade for -3 rend. Then his main weapon is 4 attacks at -3 rend 1d3+1 dmg (you can also swap it to  the 6 attacks weapon) and his Lance on the charge is 4 FLAT dmg. 

He is cheap, fast, a mortal (can be whipped), has 4 attack profiles so +1 attacks and +1 to hit are great value and when compared to a BT his best two weapons never degrade as he takes dmg. He is only usuable in Goretide and with the artefact IMO, so in that way it's restrictive.

I have high hopes that if Slaves of Darkness ever gets updated he will be even better (getting rend on his weapons).

[Xasz]

1 hour ago, kozokus said:

Would be a direct downgrade. The current system is an example of simplicity and elegance. Adding granularity in costing is overcomplexifing the game by a large margin. List correction are a nightmare in 40k. The only person made happy are list architects and rockinchair generals.

This.

Another thing is the "epic" request for non-modular unit sizes... abolishing the incremental system is one of the best things AoS has brought to Warhammer.

Back to Khorne.

I'll probably try the Archaon + Khorne list from SCGT for my next couple matches. I always had a lot of fun playing with everyone's favorite warlord and despite my initial reluctance, Khorne seems to be a better host for Mr Everchosen than ever before. My Bloodthirsters (3 + Skarbrand) are here as well, so it's time to get them stomped by Slaanesh and all the Order armies. 

Another thing, I kinda had to reevaluate the judgments. I've recently got my own box and their base-size is one or two sizes bigger than I anticipated. Especially the gorgers can block a considerable amount of space without counterplay for 40 points.  

[Reuben Parker]

54 minutes ago, Xasz said:

This.

Another thing is the "epic" request for non-modular unit sizes... abolishing the incremental system is one of the best things AoS has brought to Warhammer.

Back to Khorne.

I'll probably try the Archaon + Khorne list from SCGT for my next couple matches. I always had a lot of fun playing with everyone's favorite warlord and despite my initial reluctance, Khorne seems to be a better host for Mr Everchosen than ever before. My Bloodthirsters (3 + Skarbrand) are here as well, so it's time to get them stomped by Slaanesh and all the Order armies. 

Another thing, I kinda had to reevaluate the judgments. I've recently got my own box and their base-size is one or two sizes bigger than I anticipated. Especially the gorgers can block a considerable amount of space without counterplay for 40 points.  

Similar to you I’m not all over the judgements my main reluctance with the judgements  is that they kinda force you to go first in the battle round. Otherwise they can just disappear before your opponent even has a turn. Especially the skulls which get thrown far across the battle field so pretty likely you won’t even have the priest close for plus 1 on the roll.

I find that often playing second is preferable in AoS for a number of reasons not least of which is that it gives you the double turn potential. Plus if the opponent is playing something nasty like Geminids they win priority and either let you move the endless spell or give you the double turn. 

[Smooth criminal]

So, the new boat dude can transport 30 32mm dudes 12" forward turn 1, and the dudes may still move after that.

Time for allying some wizards?

[Battlefury]

Looking to create a tournament list for the next tournament.

We have 1250 points limit, with the army plan of 1k points. It is being played on a 48" x 48" table.
The scenario is "Focal Points".

Until now, all my army compositions got battered to dust, so as today against Fyreslayers.

Would you have any ideas, where to start with?
I do own a lot of units, but really have no clue anymore, where to start building.

The standart armies, I will face are:

Stormcast Eternals with Ballista, Sequitor & Evocator combo
More Stormcasts Eternals
Fyreslayers
Leagions of N. with no ghosts
Ironjawz
 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Battlefury

[Grimrock]

1 hour ago, Smooth criminal said:

So, the new boat dude can transport 30 32mm dudes 12" forward turn 1, and the dudes may still move after that.

Time for allying some wizards?

I'd say totally worth of all of our anti magic bubbles were enemy only. As is it'll be really difficult to keep the casting wizard away from the altar, bloodsecrator, skulls, and still be able to benefit a unit. Not impossible, but not easy either. 

[MOMUS]

Just now, kozokus said:

No. Mostly because those different loadout do more or less the same thing or are at least target dependant. Contrary to 40k where some upgrades are more powerful than others.

Debatable. Yet I think people don't mind too much if list building is "boring" as long as the real game is not.

For my part, i find aos listbuilding extremely hard since you cannot grind points here and there. You have to make hard choices.

As fascinating as this discussion is, I don't think it belongs in the Khorne thread. Let's create another subject elsewhere and talks more about skulls and blood.

Most of the legacy units have multiple weapon options of which one is usually the optimum, esp when factoring in available buffs.

it is debatable. Thats my point, it’s highly subjective and so unlikely a clear consensus. T9A thrives and uses a point system, not inspite but because of it.

I find list building simple and that has its positives and negatives, I hope that in the next GHB there are some incentives for varied lists. I feel like competitive play is really sucking the flavour of the game.

[MOMUS]

Just now, Battlefury said:

Looking to create a tournament list for the next tournament.

We have 1250 points limit, with the army plan of 1k points. It is being played on a 48" x 48" table.
The scenario is "Focal Points".

Until now, all my army compositions got battered to dust, so as today against Fyreslayers.

Would you have any ideas, where to start with?
I do own a lot of units, but really have no clue anymore, where to start building.

The standart armies, I will face are:

Stormcast Eternals with Ballista, Sequitor & Evocator combo
More Stormcasts Eternals
Fyreslayers
Leagions of N. with no ghosts
Ironjawz
 

Playing on a smaller than normal table I would go for speed, units of dogs, runs and charge bloodthirster, maybe a min gore pilgrims with large warrior unit and the goretide SH to allow max run and charge, karanak? Gives you free unit of dogs, at lower points it will really make a difference.