AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Smooth criminal]

Regarding cannons.

Are they really in the unplayable territory though? It's not like we have something else that threats 38".  A unit of cannons should be able to reduce opposing ranged power or at least pull the shooting away from your other stuff for a turn. And they have the output of 30 letters in melee if they get to double shoot (against a 10+ people unit, comparable since you won't get full 30 letters in combat against anything else). They also have exact same survival rate against no rend.

So basically 420pt buys you an equivalent of letter brick with 120pt that you overpay on shooting. Is that bad?

Sure, opponent can deepstrike their ranged stuff or hide it, but monger nerf didn't affect that.

What's our next best thing to do against shooting? 3+ save run&charge warriors? 2+ save move 8" crushers? Doesn't sound very convincing.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Smooth criminal

[Warbossironteef]

17 minutes ago, Smooth criminal said:

Regarding cannons.

Are they really in the unplayable territory though? It's not like we have something else that threats 38".  A unit of cannons should be able to reduce opposing ranged power or at least pull the shooting away from your other stuff for a turn. And they have the output of 30 letters in melee if they get to double shoot (against a 10+ people unit, comparable since you won't get full 30 letters in combat against anything else). They also have exact same survival rate against no rend.

So basically 420pt buys you an equivalent of letter brick with 120pt that you overpay on shooting. Is that bad?

Sure, opponent can deepstrike their ranged stuff or hide it, but monger nerf didn't affect that.

What's our next best thing to do against shooting? 3+ save run&charge warriors? 2+ save move 8" crushers? Doesn't sound very convincing.

They probably make up their points if you are able to get them into combat and shoot twice. To me the big thing is that in a mortal army it also means you need to take a daemon leader for Locus. So when you add up the Daemon Leader points and the 420 points it is very inefficient. 

But to your point, even though it is so pricey, the army doesn't have anything else that can do what they do. So maybe it could work, but it's a huge investment. 

If you shoot at a 10 man enemy unit with locus, you do about 4-8 wounds on average. That's not enough imo for 420, so it would really be about getting them into combat for the double shot.

[Darksteve]

7 minutes ago, Smooth criminal said:

Regarding cannons.

Are they really in the unplayable territory though? It's not like we have something else that threats 38".  A unit of cannons should be able to reduce opposing ranged power or at least pull the shooting away from your other stuff for a turn. And they have the output of 30 letters in melee if they get to double shoot (against a 10+ people unit, comparable since you won't get full 30 letters in combat against anything else). They also have exact same survival rate against no rend.

So basically 420pt buys you an equivalent of letter brick with 120pt that you overpay on shooting. Is that bad?

Sure, opponent can deepstrike their ranged stuff or hide it, but monger nerf didn't affect that.

What's our next best thing to do against shooting? 3+ save run&charge warriors? 2+ save move 8" crushers? Doesn't sound very convincing.

Cannons in thier current state have an average shooting output of 2.2 damage per model per shot if they get 2+ to hit and have locus on them. That is before saves or fnp are taken into account. Now 3x cannons will put out 6.6 damage before saves per volley. That means that, if they get to shoot, charge, shoot, they get an average of 19.2 damage per turn before saves or fnp. 30 bloodletters with about 20 in combat with the same buffs do about 18 damage before saves.

The differences obviously being that skullcannons output drops to 6.6 at range as opposed to 0, the Bloodletters having 9 more wounds and the ability to reroll charges and replenish thier numbers, the skullcannons having a better save. 

Skullcannons are mostly unplayable as for 120 points more than 30 BL you get 6.6 ranged damage, less wounds, less mortal wounds, and only slightly more rend. Plus BL scale much harder with any buffs that affectthem both.

[ChaosUndivided]

Why does the conversation always get steered in this direction? Always comparing Khorne to other factions when in reality you can compare any of those factions to yet more factions and complain about how they lack this or that. Every faction has pros and cons. Should we better at melee? Yeah. Am i gonna ****** and moan about it? Nah. Its not like we are as far behind as some make it seem or that we don't have some strengths to play to.

How badly do you need to win every game? Like do you even know what fun is or do you need to win to have "fun"? Long before this last book dropped Khorne has basically always been just under the 50% win/loss ratio at tournaments? I don't see that changing with this book. But it is telling about the army and its history. In fact many factions fall far below the 50% mark. If you're winning even half your games your doing better than most. If your getting trampled to death every game either git gud or play against less experienced people.

8 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Blood Warriors are a mediocre over priced joke. 

Im gonna disagree. We already had this discussion. You run dual axes which are just flat out sub par vs gorefist but refuse to change. As it was stated by someone else some people are just salty that they spend 100$ on sub par unit choices.

Edited April 15, 2019 by ChaosUndivided

[Battlefury]

47 minutes ago, ChaosUndivided said:

Why does the conversation always get steered in this direction? Always comparing Khorne to other factions when in reality you can compare any of those factions to yet more factions and complain about how they lack this or that. Every faction has pros and cons. Should we better at melee? Yeah. Am i gonna ****** and moan about it? Nah. Its not like we are as far behind as some make it seem or that we don't have some strengths to play to.

How badly do you need to win every game? Like do you even know what fun is or do you need to win to have "fun"? Long before this last book dropped Khorne has basically always been just under the 50% win/loss ratio at tournaments? I don't see that changing with this book. But it is telling about the army and its history. In fact many factions fall far below the 50% mark.

When you just don't win, that's not fun.

Why does the conversation shift in that direction is easy. Because the designer sh*t about us again. Like before.
It is indeed important to compare, to see the actual motivation of the entire army design.

Khorne has been under 50% win rate, and that's already very bad. It should be AT LEAST 50% for any army in the game.

 

47 minutes ago, ChaosUndivided said:

If you're winning even half your games your doing better than most. If your getting trampled to death every game either git gud or play against less experienced people.

Really?

That would mean: Just never play on events. And concider bashing noobs. That's no fun either.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Battlefury

[Battlefury]

As we are at the point of comparing. Does anyone have a look at the Fyreslayer abilities?

I don't want to copy & paste all of that stuff here, but please take a look at these, and really read through it:


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/04/08/battletome-fyreslayers-the-big-changes/

Here we go again, that army seems to be just straight out better designed. Why do i think that? Concider our "copy and paste" add 1 to hit rolls in our book as an example.
 

[Ravinsild]

55 minutes ago, ChaosUndivided said:

Why does the conversation always get steered in this direction? Always comparing Khorne to other factions when in reality you can compare any of those factions to yet more factions and complain about how they lack this or that. Every faction has pros and cons. Should we better at melee? Yeah. Am i gonna ****** and moan about it? Nah. Its not like we are as far behind as some make it seem or that we don't have some strengths to play to.

How badly do you need to win every game? Like do you even know what fun is or do you need to win to have "fun"? Long before this last book dropped Khorne has basically always been just under the 50% win/loss ratio at tournaments? I don't see that changing with this book. But it is telling about the army and its history. In fact many factions fall far below the 50% mark. If you're winning even half your games your doing better than most. If your getting trampled to death every game either git gud or play against less experienced people.

Im gonna disagree. We already had this discussion. You run dual axes which are just flat out sub par vs gorefist but refuse to change. As it was stated by someone else some people are just salty that they spend 100$ on sub par unit choices.

Because we have 1 thing to our army. 1 thing. FEC is melee AND regenerating models AND summoning models easily AND feel no pain saves AND high movement speed AND magic AND etc... 

Slaanesh is melee AND high base speed AND advancing and charging AND way easier summoning system AND exploding dice for even more attacks AND magic support AND etc... 

keep going down the list. 

Khorne has “ok” mortal wounds and attack stacking. We are slow. Our saves aren’t great. We have no feel no pains, saves after saves, regenerating models, easy resource pool for summoning. Basically we have no sustain, no defense, no speed and no strengths aside from attack stacking and the entire army has to move in a tiny huddle to min/max the buffs at the speed of turtle. 

Thats why. Because other armies get our 1 gimmick (being great at melee) PLUS really powerful support magic, sustain, better defense, better speed and more. 

So it’s frustrating to literally be the poster boys for killing people in hand to hand and that being the selling point of the army, the lore, the literal army. Literally we are “melee the army worshippers of the melee god” and we are OBJECTIVELY WORSE at it than other armies whose selling point is, for instance, “insane cannibals that believe they’re royalty” or “naked fire Dwarves with fire cats too!” Or “half naked ladies in high heels that love blood” or whatever. Daughters of Khaine are about being melee too, but literally every single aspect of Khorne is objectively and ONLY about martial Hand to hand combat and THATS IT. 

Slaanesh is about extremes of pleasure and sensation, seeking perfection, chasing the dragon, always being a thrill seeker etc. 

khorne is literally “I hate magic and I like melee guns are dumb” and we are worse at this than most other melee oriented armies. It just sucks. It sucks being “melee incarnate” and having no way to deliver that melee in a reliable and impactful way compared to other armies which are consistently at the top of the tournaments. 

Do I need to win every single game? No. Do I expect to? No. Do I even play competitively? No. Do I want my army to feel good and have a variety of options and ways to play? Yes. 

Khorne feels restricted and muted. It doesn’t feel good to play, it doesn’t have a ton of stand out Warscrolls that are obvious winners. It doesn’t have stand out combos that can be done reliably for consistent results. 

It feels like playing with one arm tied behind your back with a blindfold on compared to other armies who are playing at full capacity. It just feels like a handicap and it’s frustrating. 

Even Ironjawz feels good to play. You rush forward and alpha strike super hard by dumping command points and destroying someone’s face. It’s simple, fast, elegant and clean. 

Khorne is convoluted with no clear combinations and it feels like you’re fighting against yourself and your enemy trying to juggle the 10+ wholly within auras you need to maintain in addition to tracking 47 different abilities that all need to synergies just to be “ok” and not even good or great. 

[Ravinsild]

1 hour ago, ChaosUndivided said:

Why does the conversation always get steered in this direction? Always comparing Khorne to other factions when in reality you can compare any of those factions to yet more factions and complain about how they lack this or that. Every faction has pros and cons. Should we better at melee? Yeah. Am i gonna ****** and moan about it? Nah. Its not like we are as far behind as some make it seem or that we don't have some strengths to play to.

How badly do you need to win every game? Like do you even know what fun is or do you need to win to have "fun"? Long before this last book dropped Khorne has basically always been just under the 50% win/loss ratio at tournaments? I don't see that changing with this book. But it is telling about the army and its history. In fact many factions fall far below the 50% mark. If you're winning even half your games your doing better than most. If your getting trampled to death every game either git gud or play against less experienced people.

Im gonna disagree. We already had this discussion. You run dual axes which are just flat out sub par vs gorefist but refuse to change. As it was stated by someone else some people are just salty that they spend 100$ on sub par unit choices.

Also you’re objectively wrong. I’ve played Blood Warriors BOTH ways. I’m not salty at all I spent money because it doesn’t matter and I also have 40 WITH GOREFISTS. 

But they just SUCK. Compared to literally every other solid staple battleline our battleline FEELS BAD. 

Witch Aelves feel good and are impactful. Brutes are one of the best units in the game. Daemonettes are incredible with exploding dice and forcing you to re-rolling 6’s and advance and charge etc with built in rend. 

There are so many armies with quality battle line troops that can do a lot of heavy lifting and feel good to run. 

Blood Warriors feel like a tax. No rend. Hitting on 3’s wounding on 4’s. They’re just middle of the road with nothing stand out or exciting aside from “fight when they die” and “pray for 6’s when they save”. They just don’t feel good to use. They’re mediocre anvils and they’re not hammers either. They’re better than Bloodreavers though and that’s it. 

I’ve played 5 Khorne games and only used dual axes in 2 of those games and nobody was able to come to a consensus on whether Gorefists or Dual Axes was better. 

[Battlefury]

" Smashing their way through the maelstrom of battle, Blood Warriors roar incoherent curses as they hack and bludgeon their foes to ruin, the air around them shimmering with the rising heat of their fury. Such is their dedication to Khorne that they continue to chop and hew even after suffering wounds that would fell lesser men "

Just.No.

There where times in the old book, where I didn't even bother taking them. Reavers seemed to be just better, when buffed. Cheap. Rend weapons. Output of numerous A if needed.

What to actually do now? Really: Take Juggerlord and Skullcrushers as battleline. And learn to pray to what god ever, that those sitting ducks don't get caught in melee for more than 1 turn.

[ChaosUndivided]

Ugg where do i even begin. The problem im having here is that this is an anonymous forum where we really have no way to know if the people complaining just objectively suck at the game or not.

22 minutes ago, Battlefury said:

When you just don't win, that's not fun.

I believe with every fiber of my being that you would literally loose no matter what faction YOU play as!

25 minutes ago, Battlefury said:

That would mean: Just never play on events. And concider bashing noobs. That's no fun either.

After a month of your endless woe is me and other stupid post i am convinced me vs you would be the definition of clubbing a seal, it would make meme hall of fame. Go fight someone your own size cuz clearly you just dont understand good fundamentals of the game.

 

30 minutes ago, Battlefury said:

Khorne has been under 50% win rate, and that's already very bad. It should be AT LEAST 50% for any army in the game.

Warhammer has never been known as a "fair and balanced game"! In fact many would argue thats part of the fun of it just like when you play a video game on extremely hard setting, some people love a challenge. Furthermore NO. Here is a good lesson on life you should take to heart and repeate over and over again in your tiny self loathing defeatus head of yours. Do not compare yourself to others! It will make you much happier in life. Focus on what YOU are good at and improve on those things. Find the stuff YOU love and do those things. I repeat do not compare what you are or what you have or where you been to other peoples!

As far as this game is concerned the only thing that needs to be comparable is points. You could literally take an army that has 0 commandbtraits 0 artifacts 0 warscroll abilities and win tournoment after tournoment if they where just pointed well enuff.

Guys you're turning into trolls im not responding to you any more!

[Pejzub]

Reading through this thread is just sad. It feels like there are some people who just want to be salty about the new battletome and no matter what kind of evidence, math or actual playtesting are going to change their opinion.

 

10 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

....

Let me get this straight okay: You want an army that can be played in multiple ways and use all kinds of different units. And on the other hand you want some wombo combo strong thingy that you have to play and warscrolls that obviously stand above others (so you obviously have to play them and not the rest).

We literally have 4 different Hosts we can use to play the army, which can change the gameplay dramatically and all of them are useable. I have seen EVERY unit we currently have in the armylists in this thread in past two weeks - sure, there are some which are just worse than others, but lets be real here, thats a minority. We have got nothing for us? Oh how about these dudes called Slaughterpriests which can dish out insane amounts of mortal wounds, throw out buffs and debuffs through Judgmenets, move enemy units, unbind and what not and guess what, enemy cannot do anything about it. Exploding dice huh? Let me introduce you to my friend BToIR. Or Bloodletters. Or Skullreapers. Blood warriors feel like a tax? I wont even go there, I guess we are playing with different units, I have had a unit of 10 or 15 BW hold an entire flank for me.

In past three weeks I have played close to 10 games and Im yet to loose a game. Sure, I have played some weaker armies, I have played a newbie too. I have also played against FEC, Skavens, KO, played against people attending all sorts of competitive tourneys across Europe regularly. There were a games where I won just due to lucky (or opponents unlucky) rolls, there were games where I straight up killed my priests without them doing anything even with rerolls. My point being we are faaar from being trash tier army, I would even say on the contrary. If you are constantly getting dumped on maybe its time to stop reading through the forums and focus on your local meta and on yourself as a player.

[Battlefury]

19 minutes ago, ChaosUndivided said:

I believe with every fiber of my being that you would literally loose no matter what faction YOU play as!

I did and I do win actual tournaments. But just not with this army.

 

20 minutes ago, ChaosUndivided said:

After a month of your endless woe is me and other stupid post i am convinced me vs you would be the definition of clubbing a seal, it would make meme hall of fame. Go fight someone your own size cuz clearly you just dont understand good fundamentals of the game.

Archaic threatening gesture. We shall not communicate on that level, shall we?

Of course this forum is anonymous. I do just say, what my experience goes to. And apparently, several other players do see the same issues with the army right now.

@ChaosUndivided
Do you actually play competetively?
I won't judge you on that anyway. But please concider, that there is a big difference between open / free games and a competetive environment. My concerns normally go down to competetive games. As I told, i do play tournaments.

When it comes to free games, the army is pretty ok. Not pretty good, but okeyish.

Whenever I will post my concerns, I am gonna use the #competetive to clarify, what I am talking about.

 

[Ravinsild]

I didn’t even complain about the Battletome at first, I’ve given it a few weeks and decided to wait and see and play for myself. 

I’ve tested a variety of lists and Battalions and have more to test (I need a good 2,000 point game in with Bloodforged to try out the Wrathmongers double fight) not to mention I want more testing done with my Skulltake Battalion and a Daemon primary list. 

I am ride or die Khorne and I take notes after every battle, extensive notes (you can find some of my thoughts in this very thread), as well as my own personal notes about what I could have done better, deployed, moved, blood tithed, positioned, etc... 

But at the end of the day the army feels clunky. It doesn’t feel like a smooth and enjoyable experience compared to other armies I’ve personally played. For all the mortal wounds we can do Skaven and even Evocators do it better. That’s just real. 

I love Khorne for the fluff, for the aesthetic and for the melee focused playstyle. There’s a reason I do not play Dwarves, Witch Aelves, FEC, Slaanesh (ewww) or anything else but Ironjawz. 

I have at least 1 of every single model in the range even if I don’t play them just because I actively like the lore, the stories, the look of the models and the idea behind Khorne. 

It just feels clunky, clumsy and like you’re fighting against yourself to play. 

You WANT to be an aggressive army and some Battalions encourage getting your charges off for extra benefits and yet.... your Support System is constrained to staying within your territory. 

You WANT to sling your judgements out.... but in order to support them you have to make your Slaughterpriest follow who then lose the re-rolls and support of the Skull Altar. The moment you step outside of wholly within 8” things become strongly less reliable. 

This is what I mean. For maximum effect and support you want everything within the influence and area of the Skull Altar and all the wholly within bubbles and yet.... it doesn’t move forward. You don’t want to be charged but to move forward you lose your re-rolls and your prayers become less reliable and it’s much harder to summon judgements. Fighting against yourself. 

The army wants to be aggressive, yet stationary. It doesn’t want to be charged, yet is most effective on their own side of the board. The bubbles are mostly wholly within 16” with several being even smaller so throwing people out ahead means they get cut off from buffs, bubbles and the rest of the army. 

It just doesn’t feel good to play. Obviously nobody else is experiencing this though. Maybe they’re more comfortable with just throwing their Slaughterpriests out there. Maybe their opponents come to them more often than not. 

[Poryague]

Attacking a unit that has a 4+

10 Blood letter 3.39 to 4.39 wounds

 110 points

10 daemonettes 8.03 wounds

100 points 

10 witch aelf dual knife 5.12 wounds

100 points

So in a vacuum just comparing units design for offense. We have a points problem. Daemonettes are probably under priced. However taking the army as a whole there is not much that can boost daemonettes hit and wound rolls or number of attacks. Blood letters and witch aelfs have lots more synergy within there respective armies. 

Do we point units in a vacuum compared to other units or take the army synergy as whole assuming people use said synergies then try to point cost units? I think which you choose matters as this can cause force multiplying units to become wildly expensive on there own or do we spread it out a little. Whats the design philosophy that should be used?

[Broken Netcode]

Okay we have a simple solution to all this whining which is happening again.

 

If you wanna play in a tournament/ competitive setting, dont bring khorne.

If you dont care, bring khorne.

 

Simple!

 

Can we go back to not whinging again? We had a really good week before FAQ and now its all rushing back. No one needs to fight, and no one's opinions are solid fact. We need to band together on this. 

 

Ill start us off. What does everyone think of the Skulltaker? I love him since hes an absolute beast in combat and Id even go as far as to say hes one of if not the best non monster combat character in the game! Lemme hear those opinions!

[Ravinsild]

2 minutes ago, Poryague said:

Attacking a unit that has a 4+

10 Blood letter 3.39 to 4.39 wounds

 110 points

10 daemonettes 8.03 wounds

100 points 

10 witch aelf dual knife 5.12 wounds

100 points

So in a vacuum just comparing units design for offense. We have a points problem. Daemonettes are probably under priced. However taking the army as a whole there is not much that can boost daemonettes hit and wound rolls or number of attacks. Blood letters and witch aelfs have lots more synergy within there respective armies. 

Do we point units in a vacuum compared to other units or take the army synergy as whole assuming people use said synergies then try to point cost units? I think which you choose matters as this can cause force multiplying units to become wildly expensive on there own or do we spread it out a little. Whats the design philosophy that should be used?

That’s exactly my point though. 

Daemonettes are priced like Bloodwarriors but for 10, but are infinitely better than Bloodreavers who they’re closer to. 

They hit on 4’s and wound on 4’s. However they innately have -1 rend and also 2 attacks base. 

They have a worse save than Blood Warriors but a better save than Bloodreavers. 

They move as fast as Bloodreavers and innately can run and still charge. 

They innately re-roll hit 1’s without sacrificing anything. 

They can also replenish models on a battleshock roll of 1. 

They explode dice on 5’s and 6’s for even more attacks. 

They also force you to re-roll any hit rolls of 6 against them so things like Skullreapers will probably lose a lot of mortal wounds against them, same as Bloodletters etc. 

So for 30 more points than Bloodreavers for the same amount, or for 5 more Blood Warriors, you get: 

- 6” movement, 5+ save, 2 base attacks, 4/4/-1/1 rrh1’s, exploding on 5’s and 6’s, replenishing models, running and charging, and a nice built in defense against effects that happen on a nat 6. 

Their warscroll is packed with self contained utility and power, they’re fast, aggressive, hard hitting, and even have some built in defense and potential sustainability. 

Thats on JUST their Warscroll, you get all of that for 200 points. THEN factor in Hellstriders which will probably be nearby giving everything in 6” a -1 to hit and other support and synergy within the army and so forth.... 

Bloodreavers and Blood Warriors are just not that impressive or stunning  

[AresX8]

19 hours ago, ChaosUndivided said:

@AresX8 i like your list. Agreed that 10x Warriors with gorefist are actually pretty damn good.

I had same experience with Reapers, just the sheer amount of saves my opponent had to make was overwhelming.

Stoker is better than before.

I used Apocalyptic Frenzy in my last game to devastating effect and not sure i even care much about summoning stuff anymore unless its guarantee win.

Tell me did you use the Aspiring D to any great effect? You mentioned getting up to 7 attacks on Reapers so i guess he did something.

Its kinda funny cuz i remember when book first dropped and everyone was crying tat this was exactly the stuff we was talking about... There is definitely some serious strengths here to explore and i think we're gonna see Khorne active in meta.

Great report!

The Aspiring Deathbringer is the key model that allowed me to have a fighting chance in the second round. I've been having issues with his placement and I keep piling in out of his Slaughter Incarnate bubble. I need more practice with placing him and I definitely have been getting better as I play more games.

18 hours ago, Xasz said:

I'm probably too judgmental, but how dafuq did you clip his priests when he had screening units available and handed you the first turn... was his measuring tape broken or something?

I mean, Blood Warriors are super annoying for every melee army but it seems he pretty much dumbstered himself.

(At least I got reminded of Aetherquartz Brooch, totally forgot about that one!)

The problem with Skullreapers and Khorne (especially the mortal side) is reliable MW output. Volume of attacks was always our selling point but getting into range and then doing reasonable damage is another story.

He legit had no idea how Goretide worked as he was a Daemons only player. Players like these will always exist in events as reality matters more than any theory that gets posted on this thread and damn do I see way too much theory and not enough playing.

14 hours ago, Smooth criminal said:

Do you actually get +3 from stoker or not? I thought the ability sets the roll to 6 regardless of the modifiers. If you get +3 that would be neat, warriors will have the eel speed.

Yes you do, it doesn't matter that Ever Forward makes the run roll a 6, it's a modifier to the run roll.

10 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

We are slower, much MUCH slower than Slaanesh which also does way more attacks with their exploding dice and almost everything has rend. 

Ironjawz have a lot of problems but they can pop off in a combat round and if you fight smart you can chain combo and kill everything before your enemy can fight back and again almost everything has rend. 

Daughters of Khaine have their invuln saves and are basically Khorne, but better. 

Its actually sad and a little hilarious that every other melee dedicated army is faster, tougher, or straight up better at killing than we are. Even Ironjawz are faster with Cogs (they get wizards) and certain Battalions (Ironfist) and their Mighty Destroyers Battle Trait. It’s so frustrating. 4” Brutes can suddenly be moving like 12” and Charge with a +3 and smash you turn one. 

Meanwhile ****** Khorne with our terrible saves lumbers slowly up the field with no invuln saves, no feel no pains, no advance and charge, no extra movement traits or spells, nothing. And half of our units are worthless base. 

Witch Elves are objectively good. Daemonettes are great. It’s entirely possible Brutes are one of the best units in the game. 

Bloodreavers are literal toilet paper or worse and Blood Warriors are a mediocre over priced joke. 

I play Khorne because I love the lore but if I wanted to play a melee focused army I could basically close my eyes, throw a dart on a wall, and land on an army in any grand alliance that does melee better than we do. That’s just sad. 

 

Step 1 about games with multiple factions: DO NOT compare cross faction. The entire purpose of having more than 1 faction is to have different playstyles. Look at what tools you have available in your toolbox and learn how to use them. For me, Goretide is exactly how I play and I natively understand it.

One of our main battleline units, Blood Warriors with Gorefists, have a 4+ save, 2 wounds, do mortal wounds on unmodified 6's for saves, can easily have 4 attacks per model, re-rolling all failed hits with Warshrine prayer, run 14" to then charge with a +3" to this charge being Whipped, and re-roll all failed wounds being Whipped. Then, when they die, do another 4 attacks, re-rolling all fails. That's EIGHT ATTACKS for a 20 point battleline model. 

And this is bad....how?

[Ravinsild]

6 minutes ago, AresX8 said:

The Aspiring Deathbringer is the key model that allowed me to have a fighting chance in the second round. I've been having issues with his placement and I keep piling in out of his Slaughter Incarnate bubble. I need more practice with placing him and I definitely have been getting better as I play more games.

He legit had no idea how Goretide worked as he was a Daemons only player. Players like these will always exist in events as reality matters more than any theory that gets posted on this thread and damn do I see way too much theory and not enough playing.

Yes you do, it doesn't matter that Ever Forward makes the run roll a 6, it's a modifier to the run roll.

 

Step 1 about games with multiple factions: DO NOT compare cross faction. The entire purpose of having more than 1 faction is to have different playstyles. Look at what tools you have available in your toolbox and learn how to use them. For me, Goretide is exactly how I play and I natively understand it.

One of our main battleline units, Blood Warriors with Gorefists, have a 4+ save, 2 wounds, do mortal wounds on unmodified 6's for saves, can easily have 4 attacks per model, re-rolling all failed hits with Warshrine prayer, run 14" to then charge with a +3" to this charge being Whipped, and re-roll all failed wounds being Whipped. Then, when they die, do another 4 attacks, re-rolling all fails. That's EIGHT ATTACKS for a 20 point battleline model. 

And this is bad....how?

Look at the Daemonette analysis which is going purely off the base Warscroll, only what is printed there without any support from the rest of their army and notice how they basically have all of this too.... for 5 more models. 

Same wound (10) that can also run and charge (without spending ANYTHING) etc..

Look how much investment it took to make Blood Warriors good.

it took 1) Spending a Command Point 2) Getting a prayer off that isn’t guaranteed 3) Using a Bloodstokers Ability on them 4) Need another Command point for +1 Attack and/or a Wrathmonger Escort 5) needing to stay wholly within Bloodsecrator Banner. 

Now with all this investment we are roughly at the same place Daemonettes are stock. 

Also all of this investment into them is investment and resources not spent elsewhere such as Mighty Skullcrushers, Skullreapers, or another hammer. 

[Battlefury]

I can kind of understand the point, that we shall not compare. But at the same time that point is a little 'iffy.

We have to actually compare.
It's the same like in sports. Let us take Soccer als an example.

Group A vs Group B. Group A is concidered to be the winner, because they performed better than Group B and Group F. They where eye to eye with Group D, but definetly better than group P. But maybe they're not as good as Group C maybe. We have to compare. otherwise we wouldn't get better at the game, tbh.

Let us compare another couple:

Blood Warriors vs Bestigors.
People might claim, that Bestigors are ridiculously point efficient. And they're right. So are Sequitors. So why not Khorne units?

Bestigors do have kind of the same base stats.

120 points for 10
100 points for 5 Blood Warriors

10 wounds, 4+ save, 4+ hit, 3+ wound ( or the other way around for BWs, but the % stays the same ). The BGs can run and charge. They gain +1A, when charged. They gain +1 to hit, when enemy is 10 or more.

BWs pile in again, when slain. Can have rerolls of 1er hits, or 1MW per 6er save.

Concidering the purpose of those units. Bestigors are made to go in and smash stuff.
Blood Warriors? Ain't they designed to get in and stay there? Shouldn't they then be much more resistant?

And even IF several units are just ridiculously price efficient atm, shouldn't that have been adressed in the Khorne book, as it was designed?
Due to point cost, or warscrolls?

[ChaosUndivided]

38 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

10 daemonettes 8.03 wounds

100 points 

10 witch aelf dual knife 5.12 wounds

100 points

Yes this is what we should be looking at. But lets be clear, you picked the worst offenders as far as battleline goes so yea clear discrepancy there. Both these factions are due for rework and i think when Slaanesh drops there will be some changes people wont be happy about.

38 minutes ago, AresX8 said:

The Aspiring Deathbringer is the key model that allowed me to have a fighting chance in the second round. I've been having issues with his placement and I keep piling in out of his Slaughter Incarnate bubble. I need more practice with placing him and I definitely have been getting better as I play more games.

Yes agreed. I can dig up a quote from day booked dropped where i say i like this battalion even if it has heavy tax but a lot will ride on how well you use Aspiring D which is why i was suprised you didn't talk about him at all in your report. I think i want to give this list or something close to it a whirl.

[Poryague]

7 minutes ago, Battlefury said:

I can kind of understand the point, that we shall not compare. But at the same time that point is a little 'iffy.

We have to actually compare.
It's the same like in sports. Let us take Soccer als an example.

Group A vs Group B. Group A is concidered to be the winner, because they performed better than Group B and Group F. They where eye to eye with Group D, but definetly better than group P. But maybe they're not as good as Group C maybe. We have to compare. otherwise we wouldn't get better at the game, tbh.

Let us compare another couple:

Blood Warriors vs Bestigors.
People might claim, that Bestigors are ridiculously point efficient. And they're right. So are Sequitors. So why not Khorne units?

Bestigors do have kind of the same base stats.

120 points for 10
100 points for 5 Blood Warriors

10 wounds, 4+ save, 4+ hit, 3+ wound ( or the other way around for BWs, but the % stays the same ). The BGs can run and charge. They gain +1A, when charged. They gain +1 to hit, when enemy is 10 or more.

BWs pile in again, when slain. Can have rerolls of 1er hits, or 1MW per 6er save.

Concidering the purpose of those units. Bestigors are made to go in and smash stuff.
Blood Warriors? Ain't they designed to get in and stay there? Shouldn't they then be much more resistant?

And even IF several units are just ridiculously price efficient atm, shouldn't that have been adressed in the Khorne book, as it was designed?
Due to point cost, or warscrolls?

The point efficient units dont always have access to great synergies from there heroes.  In some cases they do. This creates a point problem that seems like some armies get point penalties for there synergies spread through out the units while others seem to be pointed based on just the units warscrolls ignoring synergies. This probably should of been adressed better in the new khorne book as this has been an ongoing thing.

[Poryague]

4 minutes ago, ChaosUndivided said:

Yes this is what we should be looking at. But lets be clear, you picked the worst offenders as far as battleline goes so yea clear discrepancy there. Both these factions are due for rework and i think when Slaanesh drops there will be some changes people wont be happy about.

Yes agreed. I can dig up a quote from day booked dropped where i say i like this battalion even if it has heavy tax but a lot will ride on how well you use Aspiring D which is why i was suprised you didn't talk about him at all in your report. I think i want to give this list or something close to it a whirl.

Yes slaanesh is getting a reworked we will see what happened soon. Daughters not So much it was design supposedly with 2.0 in mind.  They wont see change for while more then likely. Maybe point changes as there are some units that buff way to good and are under priced in daughters. Hopefully some of that will be adressed in 2019 general handbook. 

[Sneeto]

  Played my first 2k competitive solo tournament at Broadside Bash this year with Khorne.  Here was my list -

 

Allegiance: Khorne
- Slaughterhost: The Skullfiend Tribe LEADERS
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage (280) Exalted Deathbringer (80)
- Ruinous Axe & Skullgouger
- Crowncleaver
Mighty Lord of Khorne (140)
- General
- Command Trait : Master Decapitator Slaughterpriest (100) -bronzed flesh
Slaughterpriest (100) -killing frenzy
Bloodsecrator (140)
UNITS
10 x Blood Warriors (200)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist - 1 x Goreglaives 10 x Blood Warriors (200)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist - 1 x Goreglaives

5 x Flesh Hounds (100)
1 x Khorgoraths (100)
1 x Khorgoraths (100)
1 x Khorgoraths (100)
6 x Mighty Skullcrushers (360)
- Glaives
 

Game 1 vs Gloomspite Spiderlist - Two objectives, if you hold both after t2 auto win.  Star of the show was Khorgoraths holding and tying up big blocks of chaff before dying. They did some good damage as well. Bloodthirster worked well as a distraction zooming up field and pretty much keeping his blocks of spiders back for an entire turn delaying his movement onto objectives. He ambushed a large arachnarok on my back objective but killed it with 10 blood warriors and a Slaughterpriest with giant axe. 

I knew he had lots of bodies coming with large packs of spiders to steal objective so I had to thin what I could. Both blood warrior packs guarding my objective flanks. 

He hit hard on one side with mass spider and I had to move skull crushers to delay with hounds and one Slaughterpriest. We eventually killed each other on that side of the board each losing almost everything we put on that side. Bloody. 

I knew I won when his main general Arachnarok crawled up to contest and try to capture objective for auto win. Moved my Mighty Lord of Khorne with exalted deathbringer to fight him. He chose who to attack mighty lord first bringing him down to 1 health. Swing back with Exalted DB, 8 attacks on 4/3/-1/2 (blooded lt, secrator, Crowncleaver) reroll 1’s to hit and did 8 unsaved wounds. Mighty swing back and did no wounds after save. 

I got next turn, opted to fight first with DB did another 9 wounds. 80pt model killed his 360. After that it was a clean up and turn 5 I edged out with the win. 

 

Game 2 vs Gloomspite gobbos - opponent had mass goblins, skraggrot and troll hag. Very difficult match. I knew I had to kill hag quick. Lots of fighting but i was able to dedicate Mighty Lord of Khorne and exalted dB to engage troll hag with a khorg back them up. Got bloodthirster close to help but kept him in range to hit gobbos only and within 8 of hag. Hag had artifact that was -1 to hit her and -1 to hit from her profile so I was incurring -2 to hit her! Mighty lord got 2 wounds on her, exalted db got 4 from her  7 attacks , and bloodthirster attacked gobs he engaged. He had -1 to hit from nets but got two hits off from his 6 attacks on 5+ rerolling 1s. He has in range of bloodsecrator. One popped outrageous carnage putting 4 mortals on hag. She had 4 wounds left. He kills DB in melee, she doesn’t skullgouge. Khorg with them doesn’t inflict any wounds. 

Next turn he attacks with big 60 block gobbos on thirster and focused his shooting on thirster too. Thirster weak, 2 wounds left. Goes to melee, he opts to finish thirster. Hag deals d6 for 3 wounds. Mighty lord goes does 3 wounds on axes. 1 on dog bites. Hag kills Mighty lord in melee, Khorg manages to finish hag!

Other units had to go for objectives. This was the one where you have 3 objectives your side and can raze enemy objectives. 

Game came down to a retreat with my skullcrushers to tie an objective in his territory. I summoned in 10bloodletters and made the 9 inch charge to contest territory after having to reroll, i had 3 more models on objective and burned it. D3 points, rolled a 3 got 2, putting him 1 point over for win.

 

Game 3 was vs Nighthaunt - this was where side objectives are 2 points, your objective is 1 and opponents is 4. I knew his strategy was to come rush towards my objective. He put 30 chainrasp and a hero in under ground, 30 or 40 block reapers charging up middle backed by reikenor, vamp lord and lady oleander. Put 3 Khorgos and Slaughterpriest as bait middle to delay. 

He makes me go turn 1, I take both side objectives with running. One side with skullcrushers one side with 5hounds and 10 warriors. 

His turn he rushes everything up middle to fight my 3 Khorgos blocking path. Bad positioning by me puts my Slaughterpriest into melee with them.

he brings in big block of rasps and hero as close as he can to my back objective but I did good screening my 10 warriors there. So he’s about 15 away from my objective.

he runs but can’t contest either side objectives so he only scores 1 point.

I win turn roll off and take it. I charge with skullcrushers but he managed to kill 1 with other shooting spells etc so no d3 wounds. Still do 5 mortals. I stay on objective and manage to keep him away from getting close. They were fighting the lady ghost models with knives. I kill them down to 1 model. Later he does some roll and gets 5 back. Still can’t contest. He goes to move a block of 10 rasps to back them up to contest point but out of range this turn. Other side objective I move up 3 inch away from his 6 spirit hosts and hero, don’t charge as I know they will kill dogs easy. Behind dogs I spread blood warriors around to prevent him from getting more models near objective. 

Move my mighty lord and db to help with my objective and charge them both into rasps in the back. Combat doesn’t go great, lose my db before he can do much and mighty lord only killed a few. 

I fight middle and lose a khorg and a half. Bloodthirster goes to about half health. Don’t manage to kill many reapers. 

His turn he kills thirster, mighty lord, a Slaughterpriest and a khorg.

Going into 3 we roll he gets it and takes it. He finishes my last two Khorgs and moves to contest objective in my territory he gets it for 4 points. He loses a unit on skullcrusher side still can’t contest it. He moves Vampire lord from holding his back objective to come up to support. Other side objective he kills dogs and gets locked into combat but can’t contest objectives with warriors. 

My turn 3 I retreat warriors from back on the 6 spirit hosts on side objective but enough to stay in range of holding objective. He would have killed warriors if I left them in combat. Skullcrusher side goes to flank middle as support and screen to try to keep in 6 of side objective. I have dogs, 3 khorgs, Khorne lord, exalted db, 2 Slaughterpriests dead. My bloodsecrator is on 2 wounds left need skullcrusher side. I summon in my dead bloodthirster back on skullcrusher side with 8 bloodtithe points. 

We roll off he wins, goes first. I move his endless spell geminids to help block charge on my bloodthirster. It works and he doesn’t get the 10 he needs. His spirit hosts take side objective for first time after killing enough. His rasps and reapers are stuck in middle/my objective trying to move to contest skullcrusher/BT side. He moves everything to get close to them. 

My turn I fly my BT 10 with auto run 6 command point into his back field and contest his abandoned back point. At this point he cannot catch up on points and I win. 

Game 4 vs Stormcasts - this one was a tough loss because being new I trusted my opponent and took his word for a lot of stuff. I ended up losing by 2 points in star fall turn 5. I don’t want to type out what happen but these are the key points my opponent “overlooked” on. He had a +2 save for his trio of ballista in all phases because they were in cover. This only applies to shooting I found out later. This means the two combat turns it took to kill them could have been taken care of much quicker. 

His block of twenty Sequitors were rerolling hits and saves each turn when in reality you have to declare which one. I then realized he was putting his lord castellan buff on the Sequitors each turn. The problem? They were well outside wholly within 18”. He argued and said it only had to be a -model- within 18. I looked this up at the end of turn 3 and corrected him on this. But he had 5 combat phases of having that buff when he shouldn’t have.

I corrected him on two deprecate times on when he went to roll his great mace attacks but kindly pointed out those are hand weapons and shields as his great maces are piled in with different units about 8 inches away. He also piled in away and out of combat with my Khorgorath and one point which I let him fix. So his unit cohesion wouldn’t lose a handful of sequitors. 

His artifact moved from Gavriel pre-deployment to his Ordinator out of nowhere, not sure why but his list was written on a napkin without stating any artifacts taken. Took his word from it.

He picked up his dice so fast and rerolling like crazy I don’t even know if he was making things up at that point. I should have said something to slow down but lesson learned.

Barely losing the match was tough. The opponent was a nice guy on a personal level and maybe he just gets too excited when he plays but in a tournament setting my first thing I do is make sure I know my own rules. He clearly didn’t and I would like to believe he wasn’t cheating on purpose.

I later found out this was the same individual who got DQed for cheating at LVO. Lesson learned on my part.

 

Game 5 vs Witch elves against one of my team mates - I knew I couldn’t beat his list so I went for as many kill points as I could. He nearly wiped my entire army by turn 4. 

Results:WWWLL - had I won my game 4 fairly I’d have gotten a chance to go for first place but I don’t think I’d have beaten the top players FEC. I would have placed 3rd or 4th out of 26. 6th-9th were all tied but I had lowest points destroyed apparently. I ended at 9th with that list. ITC had my strength if scheduled rated as 4th highest for tournament when I last checked. 

My biggest problem was I own no demons to summon, so there were times i could have summoned in a lot of goodies but couldn’t as I didn’t own the models yet.

I was really impressed with the Skullfiend tribe and khorgs. The blood warriors did work and everything in my list I thought played an important roll! Except one - my favorite converted model too - my Mighty Lord of Khorne, honestly he kinda sucked. I’d consider dropping him and runner 20 reavers instead for bodies. 

[Sleboda]

4 hours ago, ChaosUndivided said:

How badly do you need to win every game? 

I don't believe that's a fair way to characterize what is on the minds of people there. Speaking for myself, at least, I would like two things from my new $1000 army:

1. Feel like, once I've got some experience under my belt, I've got a fair chance at winning a given game in a competitive environment.

2. My army plays in a way that reflects its bloody, murderous, martial, inspired-by-the-god-of-killing background.

 

Right now #1 seems more and more unlikely and #2 is actually better reflected in other armies.

 

I mean, when you look at the greater demon of said god in said fights and start thinking "Boy, that thing doesn't really scare anyone" something has missed the mark.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Sleboda
Many bad typos.

[Ravinsild]

3 hours ago, Sleboda said:

I don't believe that's a fair way to characterize what is on the minds of people there. Speaking for myself, at least, I would like to things from my new $1000 army:

1. Feel like, once I've got some experience under my belt, I've got a fair chance at winning a given game in a competitive environment.

2. My army plays in a way that reflects its bloody, murderous, martial, inspured-by-the-god-of-killing background.

 

Right now #1 send more and more unlikely and #2 is actually better reflected in other armies.

 

I mean, when you look at the greater demon of said god in said fights and start thinking "Boy, that thing doesn't really scare anyone" something has missed the mark.

That’s what I’ve been trying to say. 

They’ve really missed the *feeling* of Khorne. 

In the books they rush forward in a bloody murderous stampede of gore and violence. 

On the table they drop like flies and slowly shuffle up the board in a giant huddle going nut to butt so they don’t fall out of the all important auras and they’re leashed to being within a certain distance of the altar or they straight up lose all support. 

This doesn’t quite *feel* right. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by Ravinsild