AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Ravinsild]

10 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

Listen I agree with you haha. But that's not how the rule is written. "After this unit attacks for the first time in each combat phase" only explains when the ability goes off and then it just says attacks. Not melee attacks or attacks just made, etc. The exact wording doens't exclude attacks that killed models in the shooting phase.

But it's a moot point because I agree with you and I agree it's how the rule should be interpreted.

Jesus dude there’s no case here for Devil’s advocate. This is what I hate about power gamers. You say “Lul I agree teehee XD” but STILL try to make a case that “well it doesn’t word for word say that” because the devs use SHORTCUTS in language that they ASSUME everyone reading would get the hint. Instead of specifically quoting the entire combat phase rules they just say “combat phase” and assume you know the combat phase rules and that it includes specifically melee weapons. 

Its a cross reference. I’m sure you know that, but the mere fact that tournament players love to play these word games is infuriating because all it takes is a little common sense. It would get absolutely obnoxious and obtuse if they had to spell out every. Single. Rule. Every. Single. Time. On every single warscroll because people always love to say “well it doesn’t specifically say....!” When they’re clearly cross referencing something from a different part of the rules they just haven’t taken the time to literally write that out word for word because it would make warscrolls look like ******. 

/end rant 

[Zamik]

I can't wait for the danged errata to come out already.

[relic456]

Would be nice if they just made it "...if any enemy models were slain by this unit's attacks in that phase...". Removes the chance of misinterpretation!

4 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

 that they ASSUME everyone reading would get the hint

You know what they say about assumptions 

 

3 minutes ago, Zamik said:

I can't wait for the danged errata to come out already.

Likewise! Korghos Khul's Command Ability is technically useless until they update his warscroll.

[Grimrock]

31 minutes ago, Zamik said:

I can't wait for the danged errata to come out already.

100x this, I've been pulling my hair out waiting haha. I don't want to buy any new models until I see the actual rules, but it's taking forever. The only thing I can think of is they must be doing some balance testing to decide if something should be left in like skarbrand or the skull cannons. 

[Warbossironteef]

34 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Jesus dude there’s no case here for Devil’s advocate. This is what I hate about power gamers. You say “Lul I agree teehee XD” but STILL try to make a case that “well it doesn’t word for word say that” because the devs use SHORTCUTS in language that they ASSUME everyone reading would get the hint. Instead of specifically quoting the entire combat phase rules they just say “combat phase” and assume you know the combat phase rules and that it includes specifically melee weapons. 

Its a cross reference. I’m sure you know that, but the mere fact that tournament players love to play these word games is infuriating because all it takes is a little common sense. It would get absolutely obnoxious and obtuse if they had to spell out every. Single. Rule. Every. Single. Time. On every single warscroll because people always love to say “well it doesn’t specifically say....!” When they’re clearly cross referencing something from a different part of the rules they just haven’t taken the time to literally write that out word for word because it would make warscrolls look like ******. 

/end rant 

 You made a million assumptions about tournament players and myself. In tournaments you need every rule to be clear beause otherwise the games could break down into arguements. It is worth breaking down the rules before hand to remove all doubts on how they should be applied. The rules should be scrutinized for tournaments but in the end, you are right, you should do what makes sense. 

You just lost your mind for no reason. Relax.

[Darksteve]

41 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Jesus dude there’s no case here for Devil’s advocate. This is what I hate about power gamers. You say “Lul I agree teehee XD” but STILL try to make a case that “well it doesn’t word for word say that” because the devs use SHORTCUTS in language that they ASSUME everyone reading would get the hint. Instead of specifically quoting the entire combat phase rules they just say “combat phase” and assume you know the combat phase rules and that it includes specifically melee weapons. 

Its a cross reference. I’m sure you know that, but the mere fact that tournament players love to play these word games is infuriating because all it takes is a little common sense. It would get absolutely obnoxious and obtuse if they had to spell out every. Single. Rule. Every. Single. Time. On every single warscroll because people always love to say “well it doesn’t specifically say....!” When they’re clearly cross referencing something from a different part of the rules they just haven’t taken the time to literally write that out word for word because it would make warscrolls look like ******. 

/end rant 

I did like that the highlighted combat phase text actually doesnt preclude using melee attacks. "Must attack with all melee" != "can only attack with all melee. "

[Ravinsild]

2 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

 You made a million assumptions about tournament players and myself. In tournaments you need every rule to be clear beause otherwise the games could break down into arguements. It is worth breaking down the rules before hand to remove all doubts on how they should be applied. The rules should be scrutinized for tournaments but in the end, you are right, you should do what makes sense. 

You just lost your mind for no reason. Relax.

You’re right, I did make a lot of assumptions. I apologize for that and I was in the wrong. 

I’m probably just associating it with my personal experience in my personal Games Workshop with tournament and power gamers that come in and try to rules lawyer, nitpick, and generally be pretty unfun to play against. I had some really bad first experiences with 40k and AoS with 1 sided stomps when I first hotness started with some of the more competitive crowd which had since been driven off by the new manager who is pushing more fun, fluffy, narrative and casual gaming. 

Meanwhile Nashcon is coming up so the competitive players are rushing in to test lists and prep game for the tournament and a lot of rules discussions like this come up, but to someone like me the intent and the way the rule is supposed to work seems pretty obvious and normal. 

[Ravinsild]

Just now, Darksteve said:

I did like that the highlighted combat phase text actually doesnt preclude using melee attacks. "Must attack with all melee" != "can only attack with all melee. "

Yes but there’s only 2 types of attacks. Melee and missile. Missile attacks can only be used in the shooting phase per core rules right?

So unless an ability states it can be used out of phase melee attacks are never used in the shooting phase and missile attacks are never used in the combat phase. 

That’s why Warscrolls always only lay out exceptions to the rule rather than reiterating basic core rules over and over. 

Right? 

[Darksteve]

29 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Yes but there’s only 2 types of attacks. Melee and missile. Missile attacks can only be used in the shooting phase per core rules right?

So unless an ability states it can be used out of phase melee attacks are never used in the shooting phase and missile attacks are never used in the combat phase. 

That’s why Warscrolls always only lay out exceptions to the rule rather than reiterating basic core rules over and over. 

Right? 

You are absolutely correct. My intent was to point out that using the highlighted rules text to say the other poster was *clearly* in the wrong actually didnt support the point the detracting poster was making.

[Easytyger]

1 hour ago, Zamik said:

I can't wait for the danged errata to come out already.

Really this particular question of what triggers the cannons to fire in the combat phase needs no FAQ. 

[Charleston]

May I ask on your opinion on the Exalted Deathbringer with the big a** spear? My slaughterpriest conversion looks now a bit more like this dude than an actual slaughterpriest with an axe and therefore I took a look on the profile and it really looks sexy. Less of "I will impale you into death" but more Guan Yu "Slaughter an Army with two Swings" Style with easily achived 7-9 hits with 3+/3+ -1 and the chance for Mortal Wounds. Also the fact that this guy doesn´t want to be your general at all and bears a quite usefull CA in the times without the fearless-bubble of the bloodsecrator makes him pure utility. Especially at 80 Points. The -1 Rend and Double Damage-Artifact for Khorne Mortals seems also quite nice on him.

[Xasz]

42 minutes ago, Charleston said:

May I ask on your opinion on the Exalted Deathbringer with the big a** spear?

I consider him to be the best version atm.

He's rather dangerous for 80 points, doesn't need artifacts, is expendable, good Command Ability...

Edited April 11, 2019 by Xasz

[Bjornas]

46 minutes ago, Charleston said:

May I ask on your opinion on the Exalted Deathbringer with the big a** spear? My slaughterpriest conversion looks now a bit more like this dude than an actual slaughterpriest with an axe and therefore I took a look on the profile and it really looks sexy. Less of "I will impale you into death" but more Guan Yu "Slaughter an Army with two Swings" Style with easily achived 7-9 hits with 3+/3+ -1 and the chance for Mortal Wounds. Also the fact that this guy doesn´t want to be your general at all and bears a quite usefull CA in the times without the fearless-bubble of the bloodsecrator makes him pure utility. Especially at 80 Points. The -1 Rend and Double Damage-Artifact for Khorne Mortals seems also quite nice on him.

I've been using him with great success, especially as a counter-charger - he is squishy but has 2" range with the spear, so put him behind your other troops. I don't really see the point in giving him Gorecleaver though? I've been giving him Mark of the Destroyer (or "Crowncleaver" as the Skullfiend Tribe version is called), as I prefer a high minimum number of attacks instead of becoming even more reliant on 6+ procs. I run a Juggerlord general though who tends to race around the battlefield quite a bit though (especially to ninja-summon daemons on enemy objectives).

On top of an objective in a Goretide army, with 7-9 attacks getting to reroll wounds, I reckon he'll be particularly deadly.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Bjornas

[Ravinsild]

45 minutes ago, Charleston said:

May I ask on your opinion on the Exalted Deathbringer with the big a** spear? My slaughterpriest conversion looks now a bit more like this dude than an actual slaughterpriest with an axe and therefore I took a look on the profile and it really looks sexy. Less of "I will impale you into death" but more Guan Yu "Slaughter an Army with two Swings" Style with easily achived 7-9 hits with 3+/3+ -1 and the chance for Mortal Wounds. Also the fact that this guy doesn´t want to be your general at all and bears a quite usefull CA in the times without the fearless-bubble of the bloodsecrator makes him pure utility. Especially at 80 Points. The -1 Rend and Double Damage-Artifact for Khorne Mortals seems also quite nice on him.

He can 100% punch up way out of his Weightclass and I love him personally. I’ve had great success with him. 

[Zamik]

I'm happy to hear this about the Ex Death with Spear--I'm converting one now from a spare Bloodsecrator and Daemon Prince's sword!

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Zamik
Pic!

[ledha]

1 hour ago, Xasz said:

I consider him to be the best version atm.

He's rather dangerous for 80 points, doesn't need artifacts, is expendable, good Command Ability...

i have to disagree

sure, he does more damage, but the damages made by a 80 pts hero with 5 wounds and 4+ save isn't very relevant. It's killing one or two more dudes. You take him for the anti battleshock bubble.

For me, the guy with the bloodbite and the runshield is the best. Why ? Because 2++ against spells. The guy is impossible (or at least VERY HARD) to snipe with magic, which help a lot, especially against some armies who have lot of magic but 0 shooting. It make protecting him extremely easy, and help A LOT in scenarios where heroes are the only one who can capture (or count as 20) an objective.

I play this version + the brazen rune on the bloodsecrator, and if my opponent don't have shooting, he just can't snipe them out. 

[123lac]

Anyone use the E/Deathbringer with Axe and Skullgouger?

Edited April 12, 2019 by 123lac

[Killax]

3 hours ago, 123lac said:

Anyone use the E/Deathbringer with Axe and Skullgouger?

No not really, the model is very cool to use for all kinds of conversions though. In both cases I think there can be said something for either Exalted Deathbringer.

I don't think the 2+ Magic save is all that important because a good opponent will focus on more essential support heroes anyway. Which also brings me to their use, I think Exalted Deathrbingers are fine choices, but now there are (in my opinion) slighty more reasons to consider a Aspiring Deathbringer instead. For sure the Aspiring Deathbringer lacks in combat what the Exalteds can do, but if you are going to dedicate a hero to a unit, I'd consider one who adds more attacks, much like the Bloodsecrator does. It does depend on the unit he's with offcourse, but when I'm thinking dedicated support I'm thinking Skullreapers or Skullcrushers. 
If I had to pick a favourite Exalted Deathbringer it would be the one with the Impaling Spear. It's only a few extra casualties but a couple of lucky wound rolls can make the difference and we do not have that many heroes who dish out MW on the attack anyway. 

Other than that I'm also looking forward to the FAQ/Errata, there are some things unclear to me about certain abilities resolving. Such as Reapers of Vengeance's Command Ability and Tyrants of Blood. I think they should work on top of each other, but I do not know if this is GW's intend.

I do believe that the Wrathmongers actually are intended to make Skullcannons work well. Prime reason why I believe this is that GW has been very consistent with their wording throughout this book. So the exception likely means they have considered it. On top of that, removing the ranged support for Khorne would indeed add a handicap. For other than Bloodthirsters we have very few ways of passing 'chaff screens', even less so now because of much more restricted movement bonusses.

By Fyreslayer comparison our Endless Prayers/Spells w.e. are also nice but not totally game breaking. The funny part of this is that the Hexgorger Skulls are actually the only piece that really has some impact on the meta as a whole, and even then, not all armies rely on Magic to begin with. This is also why Skullcannons simply said have become an important piece to me.

I also think the Crimson Crown is intended to use on Command Abilities printed on the Warscroll. But the sad part is that we then can't combine it with Host Command Abilities and it basically only then does something for Bloodthirsters. 

In the end I'm also still missing the Daemon Keyword on Khorgos Khul's Fleshhound, Cav on Juggernauts and even Valkia this time...

[Bjornas]

14 minutes ago, Killax said:

there are (in my opinion) slighty more reasons to consider a Aspiring Deathbringer instead. For sure the Aspiring Deathbringer lacks in combat what the Exalteds can do, but if you are going to dedicate a hero to a unit, I'd consider one who adds more attacks, much like the Bloodsecrator does. It does depend on the unit he's with offcourse, but when I'm thinking dedicated support I'm thinking Skullreapers or Skullcrushers.

I thought this as well, but actually the Asp. Deathbringer bubble might not be so superior after all. If you only cover 5 Skullreapers, the extra dmg output from the Exalted Deathbringer (equipped with MotD for 7, 9 or 10 attacks), still comes out on top, and it doesn't require a command point either. If you cover 10, then sure, more attacks, but will you get them all in b2b contact? Compared to a single character.

Important anecdotal data: Last weekend my Exalted Deathbringer bravely ran up to a Vampire Lord on Dragon and chucked his spear into that skinny belly, finishing him off and getting me back into the game. The Dragon was newly bloodboiled and down to 4 wounds, but still! Mortal Wounds come in quite handy against a Mystic Shielded 3+ save that ignores rend. 

Edited April 12, 2019 by Bjornas

[Easytyger]

13 minutes ago, Killax said:

No not really, the model is very cool to use for all kinds of conversions though. In both cases I think there can be said something for either Exalted Deathbringer.

I don't think the 2+ Magic save is all that important because a good opponent will focus on more essential support heroes anyway. Which also brings me to their use, I think Exalted Deathrbingers are fine choices, but now there are (in my opinion) slighty more reasons to consider a Aspiring Deathbringer instead. For sure the Aspiring Deathbringer lacks in combat what the Exalteds can do, but if you are going to dedicate a hero to a unit, I'd consider one who adds more attacks, much like the Bloodsecrator does. It does depend on the unit he's with offcourse, but when I'm thinking dedicated support I'm thinking Skullreapers or Skullcrushers. 
If I had to pick a favourite Exalted Deathbringer it would be the one with the Impaling Spear. It's only a few extra casualties but a couple of lucky wound rolls can make the difference and we do not have that many heroes who dish out MW on the attack anyway. 

Other than that I'm also looking forward to the FAQ/Errata, there are some things unclear to me about certain abilities resolving. Such as Reapers of Vengeance's Command Ability and Tyrants of Blood. I think they should work on top of each other, but I do not know if this is GW's intend.

 I do believe that the Wrathmongers actually are intended to make Skullcannons work well. Prime reason why I believe this is that GW has been very consistent with their wording throughout this book. So the exception likely means they have considered it. On top of that, removing the ranged support for Khorne would indeed add a handicap. For other than Bloodthirsters we have very few ways of passing 'chaff screens', even less so now because of much more restricted movement bonusses.

By Fyreslayer comparison our Endless Prayers/Spells w.e. are also nice but not totally game breaking. The funny part of this is that the Hexgorger Skulls are actually the only piece that really has some impact on the meta as a whole, and even then, not all armies rely on Magic to begin with. This is also why Skullcannons simply said have become an important piece to me.

 I also think the Crimson Crown is intended to use on Command Abilities printed on the Warscroll. But the sad part is that we then can't combine it with Host Command Abilities and it basically only then does something for Bloodthirsters. 

In the end I'm also still missing the Daemon Keyword on Khorgos Khul's Fleshhound, Cav on Juggernauts and even Valkia this time...

I don't think there is much to FAQ honestly. Unless they expressly do not intend Reapers to work with Tyrants I don't think this needs any FAQ.  Rules as written it works. It's not really broken either. It is so CP heavy to use you may get one turn with multiple BTs able to fight twice but after that you'll be out of CPs. Aside from Skarbrand and the Exalted BT unbuffed BTs aren't even that Killy for their points. Many close combat armies get very explosive combat phases such Gristlegore FEC/DoK/Hightide Idoneth.

Agree think they intended Wrathmongers to effect all attacks. Back to the shelf go the Skullcannons if it is errated.

Crimson crown is likely only CAs actually on Warscrolls so no Slaughterhost CAs which is still really good. 

[Killax]

38 minutes ago, Bjornas said:

I thought this as well, but actually the Asp. Deathbringer bubble might not be so superior after all. If you only cover 5 Skullreapers, the extra dmg output from the Exalted Deathbringer (equipped with MotD for 7, 9 or 10 attacks), still comes out on top, and it doesn't require a command point either. If you cover 10, then sure, more attacks, but will you get them all in b2b contact? Compared to a single character.

Important anecdotal data: Last weekend my Exalted Deathbringer bravely ran up to a Vampire Lord on Dragon and chucked his spear into that skinny belly, finishing him off and getting me back into the game. The Dragon was newly bloodboiled and down to 4 wounds, but still! Mortal Wounds come in quite handy against a Mystic Shielded 3+ save that ignores rend. 

With his own 12" bubble it should be relatively easy to cover all 10, while I do agree that not all 10 might meet b2b contact with the opponent I would say a fair assumption remains that you will at least be able to find space for about 7 of them. At that time I'd say he's most certainly worth it. In addition to that the Asp Deathbringer has a 3" melee weapon aswell. While it lacks rend, you should be able to affect the unit and have him swinging at something aswell. For sure positioning is important and yes, as above, I do agree it will differ per unit.

f the hero isn't going to be dedicated to a unit you could indeed run the Exalted Deathrbinger with Spear and I would say it generally shouldn't dissapoint as long as it isn't the general  but then again, similar results in terms of MW would be gained when you place an Asp Deathbringer near the Skullreapers. Afterall, their chances to do MW are higher as those are for the Ex Deathbringer with Spear, as one is on hit and the other on wound.

Long story short however is that both are excellent choices at 80 points. It's the armylist context that will make the difference.

27 minutes ago, Easytyger said:

I don't think there is much to FAQ honestly. Unless they expressly do not intend Reapers to work with Tyrants I don't think this needs any FAQ.  Rules as written it works. It's not really broken either. It is so CP heavy to use you may get one turn with multiple BTs able to fight twice but after that you'll be out of CPs. Aside from Skarbrand and the Exalted BT unbuffed BTs aren't even that Killy for their points. Many close combat armies get very explosive combat phases such Gristlegore FEC/DoK/Hightide Idoneth.

Agree think they intended Wrathmongers to effect all attacks. Back to the shelf go the Skullcannons if it is errated.

Crimson crown is likely only CAs actually on Warscrolls so no Slaughterhost CAs which is still really good. 

While I agree with you, there are many discussions revolving around these subjects. Much like I believe the Bloodsecrator was never really that overpowered, it did see 5 changes in total before it became what it is now  Likewise being able to slingshot like the old Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster did wasn't that overpowered either, yet we do see it's completely removed aswell.

All I can really say about AoS (Khorne) is that certain errata's and faq's feel very subjective to how a particular part of the community feels about, regardless if it is actually problematic.  As a result I don't hope to see many changes in the errata/faq either, but it would be nice if GW covered it to make that point clear.

 

[Warbossironteef]

Does anyone here have experience trying to make Dark Feast work? It's a cheap battalion and the new Goretide rules seem to help it out. The Bloodsecrator becomes so important but the reavers are actually threats and they generate a ton of BloodTithe so your BT or Manticore can attack twice. 

LEADERS
Chaos Lord on Manticore (250) -Demensional Blade
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster (320)
Bloodstoker (80)
Slaughterpriest (100)
Bloodsecrator (140) -Thornebreakers Torc

UNITS
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
10x Bloodreavers (70)
10 x Bloodreavers (70)

5 x Wrathmongers (140)
3 x Skull Cannons (420)

BATTALIONS
Dark Feast (110)

[Ravinsild]

50 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

Does anyone here have experience trying to make Dark Feast work? It's a cheap battalion and the new Goretide rules seem to help it out. The Bloodsecrator becomes so important but the reavers are actually threats and they generate a ton of BloodTithe so your BT or Manticore can attack twice. 

LEADERS
Chaos Lord on Manticore (250) -Demensional Blade
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster (320)
Bloodstoker (80)
Slaughterpriest (100)
Bloodsecrator (140) -Thornebreakers Torc

UNITS
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
10x Bloodreavers (70)
10 x Bloodreavers (70)

5 x Wrathmongers (140)
3 x Skull Cannons (420)

BATTALIONS
Dark Feast (110)

Have you ever heard the old adage you get what you pay for? 

Just because it’s cheap doesn’t mean it’s good. Bloodreavers are paper. 

[Grimrock]

1 hour ago, Warbossironteef said:

Does anyone here have experience trying to make Dark Feast work? It's a cheap battalion and the new Goretide rules seem to help it out. The Bloodsecrator becomes so important but the reavers are actually threats and they generate a ton of BloodTithe so your BT or Manticore can attack twice.

I've used the new dark feast and think it's quite good, but I don't think it's something that you can really 'make work'.  The reavers are so squishy that they'll usually die before they fight, and the slaughterpriest can get sniped. What I do like about it is it bunches all your screening units into a single drop, gives you an artifact and command point, and just maaaybe gives you a few extra attacks, all for a low low price. It combos well with a lot of other battalions if you do 4 reaver units for a total of 570 points. 

[Agent of Chaos]

FAQ is out.

Mage Eater allows an additional unbind. Only the first unbinding roll can inflict mortal wounds.

Wrathmongers changed to buff melee attacks only. There goes the Khorne gunline. Sucks for those who bought multiple skull cannons already

Korgos Kuls command ability got fixed (used in combat phase, not charge phase).

Aspiring Deathbringer +1 attack can't be stacked.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Agent of Chaos