AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Ravinsild]

Alrighty. Well I won todays game with a minor victory. I won't go into too much detail but I will provide the list I took and the main highlights and observations I've made. We ended the game at the bottom of the 5th turn. It was 15 to 15 in victory points. I won by having more total points killed than he did. It was a very close game. 

The battle took place on the Scorched Earth map against the Dispossessed. 

I ran with a completely different list thanks to the feedback here. I didn't exactly make 100% of the changes recommended, but I did have some great success nonetheless. Without further ado my literal list:

Allegiance: Khorne
- Slaughterhost: The Goretide

Leaders
Mighty Lord of Khorne (140)
- General
- Trait: Hew the Foe 
Bloodsecrator (140)
- Artefact: Thronebreaker's Torc 
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Killing Frenzy
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Bronzed Flesh
Bloodstoker (80)
Exalted Deathbringer with Impaling Spear (80)
- Artefact: Gorecleaver 

Battleline
10 x Blood Warriors (200)
- Goreaxes
- 1x Goreglaives
10 x Blood Warriors (200)
- Goreaxes
- 1x Goreglaives
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Meatripper Axes

Units
5 x Skullreapers (180)
- Daemonblades
- 1x Soultearers
5 x Skullreapers (180)
- Daemonblades
- 1x Soultearers
5 x Wrathmongers (140)
1 x Khorgoraths (100)

Battalions
Slaughterborn (180)

Endless Spells
Bleeding Icon (40)
Wrath-Axe (60)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 136
 

Observations:

- Khorne is very slow. It takes us awhile to get to places. If the game is stretched out across a large map or area like Scorched Earth you really need to pick your battles.

- You have to commit. The wholly within shenanigans means everybody has to go. If one unit is going, all the support heroes need to go too, and the support units. It's like a war caravan or blob. 

- Altar Placement is extremely important. In order for the all important re-rolls it feels like the priests are chained to it, and that means if your army strays too far they're not getting the support from the priests, and if the priests wander out too far they may not be protected.

- If everything is deployed in the middle I'm weak on the sides. If I go left, they can hit me from the right, if I go right they can hit me from the left, because everything has to go together. Nothing is good by itself or on its own. If you're not getting whipped, extra attacks, blessings, etc our units just aren't good. 

- Blood Tithe can come in really slowly and it's a bit of an annoying system compared to Depravity which just stacks up all game with total ease. With Dwarves re-rolling ALL saves and most saves having a solid 4+, and our lack of any meaningful rend it can take a long time to clear out units, especially with how resilient they are to battle shock, or simply command pointing to auto-pass.

- Khorne is, as I said before, slow. We are vulnerable to high speed, and long range. We can dampen rend with the Slaughterborn battalion, but over half my units didn't get that protection. Once again some of my units contributed very little or absolutely nothing to the game due to unsure of how my opponent was going to play, so holding some back in reserves to see if they would be needed. They got into the action a little too late. 

- I loaded up 1 unit of 10 Blood Warriors with FULL buffs, Whipped to Fury, Bronzed Flesh, Killing Frenzy, The Goretide command point ability. I sent them across the board turn 1 and the re-rolling 1's on axes hitting on 2's was really nice. Wounding on 3's re-rolling all was again really nice. They actually put down 20 Dwarves over 2 turns by themselves. I ended with that unit having 5 guys left which just camped the objective all game. 

- The Bleeding Icon is nice. It's fairly reliable and mortal wounds are always welcome. It's easier to cast than the Axe, and less situational than the Skulls. It's just straight up D3 mortal wounds. That's pleasant. 

- Not sure how to play Slaughterpriests. I've been keeping them sat wholly within 8'' of the Skull Altar, but that limits my range tremendously. If my army moves outside wholly within 16'' at all no buffs. If I chase my Endless Judgements to maintain them (+1 to the roll), that's no re-rolls. 16'' range isn't much. If my opponent keeps back I can't blood boil. I don't know if they should follow the herd and forsake re-rolls or keep doing what I've been doing but eventually their impact on the game drops off. 

- The Battalion is really nice, but again anything not in it is still quite vulnerable to rend. 

- Wrathmongers are great. The aura is nice and they're killy in their own right.

- I kept forgetting to count my to hit natural 6's on my Skullreapers, and found even with 19-20 wounds reliably going through each time, re-rolling saves for Dwarves saw only about 4-7 wounds going all the way through each time. I lament my Skullreapers. They somehow feel weaker, I don't know why. Only 1 weapon had rend. They just feel like they're missing something. It could be because I only remembered my mortal wounds half the time. 

- Mighty Lord of Khorne did work this game. Khorgorath was fine. It killed 6 of the really big gun dwarf guys with the hand cannons. An Unforged (Slayer) wrecked him dead and almost got my Lord. My Lord got him back with a vengeance. He can be pretty killy, especially with Hew the Foe. 

- Bloodreavers are still trash and I kind of hate them. They're worthless paper. Every other army seems to have much more worthwhile battleline than we do. 

- I felt like with my lack of a true, devastating hammer and how slow we are the game took the literal entire 5 turns of just slogging it out walking slowly or even running and then it took forever to grind down the Dwarves numbers because of no rend, re-rolling saves, and lack of meaningful damage. 

- It was a really fun game. Wondering what I can do differently to either bring some real pain, or more effectively use my prayers, blessings and judgements or some other combination to get killier. 

- The Goretide is nice. On a map like Scorched Earth the re-roll wound rolls of 1 is amazing. On Knife to the heart (2 objectives) it's way less amazing. The Artifact is meh. Nobody cares about my Bloodsecrator. He's fine, the aura is fine. Maybe he should be replaced. I'm neutral on him. He's ****** slow. REALLY slow. The Command Ability I used once. I just didn't have an incentive to send Blood Warriors, or Reavers, running anywhere after the first turn. Hew the Foe is great on my Mighty Lord  

- Maybe Bloodmad with more attacks would have ended the game sooner? Or maybe I would have died way faster since I was negating a good portion of his rending from shooting, until he stopped shooting at things that lowered the rend (my poor bloodstoker, and wrathmongers...) 

- Maybe Murderhost and Daemons, all Daemons, or at least a solid chunk of Daemons would be more beneficial. Perhaps a straight up 50/50 split army of Mortals and Daemons is the way to go with Mortal support units/heroes and Anvil/Chaff and Daemon Hammers like a 30 block of letters, Bloodthirster, and/or Mighty Bloodcrushers. Maybe all Daemons with Flesh Hound and Bloodletters for troops, Bloodcrushers for a hammer and the Daemon heroes would be best/faster/killier? 

- I'm not sure how to deploy. Due to the nature of the army I've basically been deploying everything all in the center and all together. My opponent today had units on all 3 objectives on his side of the map and was able to walk into my territory on the right and claim mine and burn it. I had to commit my whole blob to the left, which I absolutely annihilated, as well as the center with my Blood Warriors, but the nature of my army having to move altogether I feel limits my area of effect. Is it worth it to play some units outside the "murder bubble" as stand alones? Our units feel like trash by themselves. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Ravinsild

[Battlefury]

I got a question due to the Gorefists.

It states "unmodified sve rolls of 6 cause MW at the e. unit".

Do rerolls apply before modifiers? Would that mean, that if I reroll saves of 1, or even all saves, those 6 causes MW then too?

[Revan123]

So, I played a lot of games with Khorne and with all depression I have, I need to say, that after Skaven Battletome, it was a real downgrade from GW. 

Why do I think battle tome of Khorne suck and probably we will rarely see this faction at top-3 of tournaments? 

Lets start with our allegiance trait. Blood points are still discarding . Still DISCARDING. And this is in the meta, where we have blobs of models, you need to  struggle through a lot  just ot get these points. But when you are really desperate and you need to fight again in the hero phase for example, you will lost everything you earned with such difficulty. And this is when Khorne, aside from Tyrants of Blood, can't delete most units in one-two phases of combat. 

Then we go to the priests. No stacks of baff now. Alright. we can just drop bloodwarriors list with +2 to save, what made them tanky. Now they are not. Yeah, we don't need killing frenzy that much anymore. But... we also lost ability to get our bloodpoints for sacrifaces. Not saying, that you need to use HEROES for that. HEROES! The only point I can see here for that blessing - to lower Scarbrand profile and make him angrier, but that is it. Endless spells are ok, though, but you need to take maybe 2 priests, no more now. 

Then batallions. Yeah, they got cheaper. But for Skullcannons it is not so necessary to take bloodthrone and batallion, where you can get mot cheeper hero and still shoot 2+ rerolling 1's against mobs and 3+ rerolling 1' against others. 

For murderhost... why do you need +2 to advance, when daemons can't charge after advance anymore?  How you can fit bloodletters in the list of Khorne today by the way? 

Tyrants of blood are great, though

Others just do almost nothing (like most batallions in other factions)

As for hosts. Reapers of vengeance  are dreat, no doubt. Others are not. So, you can reach your enemy with your bloodwarriors now. Then what? They never did a lot of damage, so they can't know. And they are not tanky animore. They will be send to the front lines just die.

They we got reavers. Only cheap scoring.

Then khorgoraths. They can kill a lot, when you take 6 of them. But it is one really costly unit, which can be locked in combat from sides. Or just killed by shooting before they will be able to reach their target. Yes., even with 4+ save and 8 wounds. Raptors says hi.

Skullcrushers have almost same problem. They can be locked in combat and aside from mortal wounds they can't kill anyone. But they pretty tanky, though

As for Skullcannons... I used the glitch with Wrathmongers. And they can't kill a thing. Seriously. Random damage, not rerolls to wound. In 40k you can get 2 squads of havocs,, more cheeper and with the same result. So, cannons are totally overrated and when mongers will be faq'ed, they will be the same garbage they were in Battletome of Khorne 1

Skullreapers - they dead, can't do nothing, End of story.

So we mostly have thirsters now. They only playable combo I found with reapers of vengeance command ability. 3 thirsters can charge, fight one by one for Tyrants of blood, Twice for command ability. And Wrath can give rerolls to hit, without them they hit badly. After that Skarbrand just deletes units from the game.

But. Daemons can't charge  after advance. You need to get close your wrathmongers. And also bloodsecrator (gore piligrims are not worth it at all now). So during that enemy will shoot you down or kill you in combat yourself, since with 4+ save thirsters are not going to live that long.

And for that powerful combo you need 6 CP perphase without any ability to return them or generate (hello ghouls).

So, maybe I wrong. But in our meta in Russia with high competative value in the game, Khorne will not stand a chance. 

And wholly within auras. damn....

Edited April 1, 2019 by Revan123

[Agent of Chaos]

Well I picked a fine time to go on holiday didn’t I!

What a wild ride reading through everyone’s comments, buying the new tome on the app and pouring over the new rules while not in a position to contribute to the forum.

I’ve seen a reasonable amount of negativity here and that’s OK, change can be hard and this hobby aint cheap so when your favourite model/combo gets nerfed it can be tough to bear.

Case in point, I only just finished converting and painting a Jugger Lord and will never get to use him with the old command ability, but such is life.

 

That being said I’ve seen a lot of positivity and most of the feedback from people lucky enough to play a few games already seems promising.

The Tyrants of Blood is an obvious choice for power gamers and I hope your bloodthirsters leave a trail of ruin behind them.

Sadly I currently only have 2 of the old metal ones so will be looking to other battalions and strategies, as I'm sure all khorne players are doing in one way or another.

 

Many have said how weird it is that we are now a pseudo casting army with the possibility for awesome ranged support.

While certainly a different way for khorne to play, the themes of blood and skulls remain, just in a different way.

And how nice to get a terrain piece and some free bonus rules in the form of the slaughterhosts, not to mention the locus on all daemons and daemon heroes!

Even if you don’t love a particular slaughterhost command ability or trait, all four of them offer something useful to any given list and are free so who doesn’t like that?

 

The bloodtithe table got better in some respects, worse in others, however not being able to bank unspent tithe remains a major issue with the system.

Also only being able to summon one unit per turn is another harsh and somewhat unnecessary penalty.

However given the other free allegiance abilities I can live with blood tithe as is and will view it a nice bonus which might come into play now and then but little more then that.

 

I’ve done some tinkering with lists based on my current collection as I was hoping to avoid the need for purchasing more models to continue playing Khorne (new terrain piece and tome aside).

I only have 1 unit each of bloodwarriors, skullreapers, wrathmongers, blood crushers, khorgorath & skull cannon and no skull crushers which limits my battalion choices even further.

I also plan to sit back and wait on the judgements to gauge how people are finding them (and whether they get an immediate nerf via the FAQ).

The Axe does look and sound great however at a 5+ to cast I am wary of it not turning up, even with a reroll from the altar, and so will keep my powder dry for now.

Theres an obvious symmetry with the judgements and warshrine however until Slaves to Darkness gets a battletome I’m apprehensive about committing to buying (and painting) a warshrine for now.

 

What I have got available is a ton of chaos knights and the first thing I thought when I saw the change to the bloodstoker was that they would love to be whipped even more than before! I also feel they address one of our glaring weaknesses being speed. 

So I’m wanting to try a list that uses a wall of chaos knights as the first wave, followed up by the mop up crew of skullreapers and wrathmongers, with support from priests and whatever damage/summoning I can do with blood tithe.

This will still need to run under gore pilgrims because the knights need extra attacks but will likely charge out of range of the wrathmongers and standard bloodsecrator banner.

 

Although I don’t have any khorgoraths I’ve still gone for the Skullfiend Tribe as my slaughter host.

Reason being the reroll 1’s to hit will greatly help the knights and you don’t actually have to be attacking a hero to get it, just wholly within 12”.

I actually don’t mind the wasted command ability too much as I have others that I need to use my CP on.

I also like the idea of a dedicated hero hunter and so will run my new Juggerlord with the hosts’ trait and artefact and see if he cant generate a few extra bloodtithe for me.

Even though his command ability went from +1 to wound to reroll 1’s it will still help the knights and can apply to all 3 units for only 1CP which is pretty cool.

Once he has buffed their initial charge he will focus on hunting down heroes.

 

Including knights means you pretty much have to run a lord on daemonic mount as his command ability is essential for them (+1 to hit and reroll charges).

Having the daemon keyword means he can use the Crimson Crown and be able to boost 2 x units of knights per turn for only 1CP. Nice!

It also means he can provide the locus effect to any daemons I manage to summon which is handy.

 

Based on the Order of Operations and my understanding of the rules, a slaughterpriest can attempt blood sacrifice to generate a blood tithe point, and then you can immediately spend that point for 1 CP as both actions happen “at the start of the hero phase”. Being our turn we choose the order in which things happen during “the start of the phase” and so I think this tactic for generating extra CP is legit and very necessary for the battleshock tests we may now need to take.

Taking all of that into account, below is what I came up with;

 

Allegiance: Khorne
- Slaughterhost: The Skullfiend Tribe

Leaders
Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut (160)
- General
- Trait: Master Decapitator 
- Artefact: Crowncleaver 
Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount (140)
- Artefact: The Crimson Crown 
Bloodstoker (80)
Bloodsecrator (140)
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Killing Frenzy
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Blood Sacrifice

Battleline
10 x Blood Warriors (200)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
- 1x Goreglaives
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Meatripper Axes
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Meatripper Axes

Units
5 x Skullreapers (180)
- Goreslick Blades
5 x Wrathmongers (140)
5 x Chaos Knights (160)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
5 x Chaos Knights (160)
- Chaos Glaives
5 x Chaos Knights (160)
- Chaos Glaives

Battalions
Gore Pilgrims (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000

 

The juggerlord and regular mounted lord buff all 3 units of knights and send them charging into the enemy lines where they can hopefully do decent damage and then tar pit until the next wave catches up.

 

Meanwhile the priest with blood sacrifice will sit atop the tower and sacrifice the first unit of reavers.

The other priest will hang out with the bloodsecrator and bloodstoker, in the middle of the skull reapers and wrathmongers, screened by the second reaver unit.

This little land tank will rumble forward behind the knights and mop up anything left with the skullreapers putting out a ton of attacks and buffed with killing frenzy and whipped.

 

The 10 x blood warriors will protect a flank and generally operate independently, filling whatever role is needed.

 

In time the unit of knights with ensorcelled weapons will likely swap out for a warshrine and may also look to work in the Wraith Axe and 5 x flesh hounds by dropping the Juggerlord (he is officially on notice with his performance being carefully examined).

 

The above seems very different to the other lists posted up so what do you all think? 

Is it super competitive? doubt it. Will it be fun to play? Almost certainly.

Whats that you say? Blood for the Blood God? Yeah that’s what I thought too!

[Battlefury]

9 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

- You have to commit. The wholly within shenanigans means everybody has to go. If one unit is going, all the support heroes need to go too, and the support units. It's like a war caravan or blob. 

First of all, congratulations to the victory! It seems, you really had to fight hard for it.

That's a thing, that buggs me a lot. The wholly within rule leads to strange commitments to make:
1. Be within the range and gain buffs, but staying restricted to that small area.
2. Not being able to spread across the map to gain map control.
3. We are easy to catch, because of the big blobbs we build up

 

12 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

- Blood Tithe can come in really slowly and it's a bit of an annoying system compared to Depravity which just stacks up all game with total ease. With Dwarves re-rolling ALL saves and most saves having a solid 4+, and our lack of any meaningful rend it can take a long time to clear out units, especially with how resilient they are to battle shock, or simply command pointing to auto-pass.

My opponent just did a simple list:

Had just those units, that can make the shield wall and reroll saves. Brought in a greatcanon. Strategy: Wait for Khorne to literally sneak up and catch my units in different points, by conga lining his units ( gained massively map control though ). Shooting everything to pieces with his canon, as I just couldn't get behind him without being in melee with his units.

 

15 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

- Bloodreavers are still trash and I kind of hate them. They're worthless paper. Every other army seems to have much more worthwhile battleline than we do.

Agree absolutely. It is not really worth taking them, exept for sacrificing purpose with several BT aginer lists. Otherwise they're kind of not worth it.
Technically they can really mess up the enemy player, because we can bring them in a lot of small groups and just run around the map. But even there their points seem wasted.

 

17 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

The Goretide is nice. On a map like Scorched Earth the re-roll wound rolls of 1 is amazing. On Knife to the heart (2 objectives) it's way less amazing. The Artifact is meh. Nobody cares about my Bloodsecrator. He's fine, the aura is fine. Maybe he should be replaced. I'm neutral on him. He's ****** slow. REALLY slow. The Command Ability I used once. I just didn't have an incentive to send Blood Warriors, or Reavers, running anywhere after the first turn. Hew the Foe is great on my Mighty Lord

I really don't know if the Secrator is still a must have and tbh really worth it. GW kind of halfed his really important stuff he does, but didn't change the point value. To be honest, I don't like the fact, that we now have to bring 2 models to gain the buffs, he had before in one model. And therefore we gotta pay 220 points now.

 

19 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

- I felt like with my lack of a true, devastating hammer and how slow we are the game took the literal entire 5 turns of just slogging it out walking slowly or even running and then it took forever to grind down the Dwarves numbers because of no rend, re-rolling saves, and lack of meaningful damage. 

- It was a really fun game. Wondering what I can do differently to either bring some real pain, or more effectively use my prayers, blessings and judgements or some other combination to get killier. 

- Maybe Murderhost and Daemons, all Daemons, or at least a solid chunk of Daemons would be more beneficial. Perhaps a straight up 50/50 split army of Mortals and Daemons is the way to go with Mortal support units/heroes and Anvil/Chaff and Daemon Hammers like a 30 block of letters, Bloodthirster, and/or Mighty Bloodcrushers. Maybe all Daemons with Flesh Hound and Bloodletters for troops, Bloodcrushers for a hammer and the Daemon heroes would be best/faster/killier? 

Looks like we are absolutely needing demons in our lists again. The non demonic units just seem to be kind of lacklusters, again.
We kind of need BThirsters, Skarbrand and Blood Letters.

ATM the logic seems to be like:

Demons = Damage Dealers
Humans = Meat Shield

That buggs me little bit, tbh here.

But we gonna find a way maybe.

[Battlefury]

@Revan123I have to agree with you.

From what I experienced until now, I can not see any possibility to really win games. Maybe 1/10 might be a good victory, but I am still not sure, how this version of Khorne is gonna withstand the potential enemies.

We have a very strong community here, that plays competetively a lot. Khorne almost just never wins, tbh. In 6 month it where 5 games, that where won by Khorne players, and one tournament. That was with the old book.

So there we go, gotta be realistic here, sry for that. But I think this book isn't going anywhere.

[Galdenistal]

1 hour ago, Agent of Chaos said:

Based on the Order of Operations and my understanding of the rules, a slaughterpriest can attempt blood sacrifice to generate a blood tithe point, and then you can immediately spend that point for 1 CP as both actions happen “at the start of the hero phase”.

You can't do that, Bloodtithe needs to be spent at the start of the hero phase, after you use Blood Sacrifice then its no longer the start of the hero phase so you cant use Bloodtithe anymore.

[Revan123]

1 hour ago, Battlefury said:

@Revan123I have to agree with you.

From what I experienced until now, I can not see any possibility to really win games. Maybe 1/10 might be a good victory, but I am still not sure, how this version of Khorne is gonna withstand the potential enemies.
 

Well, here is the list we cannot stand a chance: 

Stormcast: Raptors or Dracots 

Fyreslayers with deepstriking blobs (especially shooty ones)

Death: Ghouls - just no chances with two activations per unit

Destruction: Ironjaws with stacking Waagh and Gutbusters with mamonts

Nighthaunts - their saves will eat half of the damage

Skaven - 160 plaguemonks, not enough units to kill them all. 

Kharadrons 

Here we can don something with Tyrants of Blood only

Death: with Nagash or not, Zombi dragon and blobs of  skeletons

Sylvanets: kill strongest units and they will be probably done

Seraphones: we can kill them, but they can overscore us

Nurgle: a bit hard, but managable

Others we can deal with rather easily or at least it will be more interesting game at least

[Broken Netcode]

18 minutes ago, Revan123 said:

Well, here is the list we cannot stand a chance: 

Stormcast: Raptors or Dracots 

Fyreslayers with deepstriking blobs (especially shooty ones)

Death: Ghouls - just no chances with two activations per unit

Destruction: Ironjaws with stacking Waagh and Gutbusters with mamonts

Nighthaunts - their saves will eat half of the damage

Skaven - 160 plaguemonks, not enough units to kill them all. 

Kharadrons 

Here we can don something with Tyrants of Blood only

Death: with Nagash or not, Zombi dragon and blobs of  skeletons

Sylvanets: kill strongest units and they will be probably done

Seraphones: we can kill them, but they can overscore us

Nurgle: a bit hard, but managable

Others we can deal with rather easily or at least it will be more interesting game at least

I disagree completely from what ive found in the games ive played. 

 

Stormcast: We have a lot of mortal wound output now ontop of normal damage, so I dont see this army as an issue.

Fyreslayers: Shooty blobs I can agree with, but with how many attacks we can get for one unit its so easy to wipe out enemy blobs.

FEC: Again, this army is good at blending hordes. Just about knowing when is the right time to strike.

Destruction: Somewhat agree with the ogors mortals output since we dont have any protection for MW anymore, and tough elite units are hard to knock 1 or 2 models off a turn.

Nighthaunt: Again, mortal wound output. 

Skaven: All about knowing when to attack. You need to know what youre doing. Only issue is Skryre.

KO: Kinda agree, shooty armies can give us the big hurt.

 

Overall, its just about the fact this army is and will be harder to play than other armies. But then again, why would you want an easy win with another army when you can feel like you earned it every game you play Khorne! 

 

Lets not make assumptions like these until AT LEAST a month has passed since book release as its just finding its feet. 

[Revan123]

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Stormcast: We have a lot of mortal wound output now ontop of normal damage, so I dont see this army as an issue.

Will you be able to charge first or reach raptors, jumping accross the field? I could not even with charging after advance

Quote

Fyreslayers: Shooty blobs I can agree with, but with how many attacks we can get for one unit its so easy to wipe out enemy blobs.

Only tyrants of blood can kill 30 berzerkers with 4+ fnp and rerollable save. But shooting and opponent's charges mostly kill thirster, who are not tanky at all

Quote

Nighthaunt: Again, mortal wound output. 

From who? Scarbrand? He is alone. Letters? Ok, with unmodified 6's you kill somewhat 10-15 chainrasps. They kill letters, who are not fearless not with no problem. 

Quote

FEC: Again, this army is good at blending hordes. Just about knowing when is the right time to strike.

Opponent wiil strike you first and just kill. End of the story

Quote

Skaven: All about knowing when to attack. You need to know what youre doing. Only issue is Skryre.

Do you have any choice when to strike? Allow enemy to secure objectives? Hold more ground? Alright, you kill 80 monks in double turn. Another 80 will kill thirsters in one go.

Quote

But then again, why would you want an easy win with another army when you can feel like you earned it every game you play Khorne! 

I don't want easy win. I get interesting wins with nurgles. Here we can calcute a lot of situations, where Khorne will be not competative at all. At the tournament, where you don't have choice to choose army you play against, not a lot of options for Khorne to deal with most opponents with one army list.

Quote

Overall, its just about the fact this army is and will be harder to play than other armies

When you just CAN'T play against some armies at all, no matter your skill and only hoping with luck on dices - this is not a way to go.

Quote

Lets not make assumptions like these until AT LEAST a month has passed since book release as its just finding its feet. 

Since when book gets better with passing time? Quite opposite, it will be worse with changing meta mostly and nerfing faq's, like tzeench had. 

[peasant]

Hi! Can a doombull khorne marked be a skullfiend trine general and get both command trait and artifact?

[Broken Netcode]

5 minutes ago, Revan123 said:

Will you be able to charge first or reach raptors, jumping accross the field? I could not even with charging after advance

Only tyrants of blood can kill 30 berzerkers with 4+ fnp and rerollable save. But shooting and opponent's charges mostly kill thirster, who are not tanky at all

From who? Scarbrand? He is alone. Letters? Ok, with unmodified 6's you kill somewhat 10-15 chainrasps. They kill letters, who are not fearless not with no problem. 

Opponent wiil strike you first and just kill. End of the story

Do you have any choice when to strike? Allow enemy to secure objectives? Hold more ground? Alright, you kill 80 monks in double turn. Another 80 will kill thirsters in one go.

I don't want easy win. I get interesting wins with nurgles. Here we can calcute a lot of situations, where Khorne will be not competative at all. At the tournament, where you don't have choice to choose army you play against, not a lot of options for Khorne to deal with most opponents with one army list.

When you just CAN'T play against some armies at all, no matter your skill and only hoping with luck on dices - this is not a way to go.

Since when book gets better with passing time? Quite opposite, it will be worse with changing meta mostly and nerfing faq's, like tzeench had. 

I can see that youre set in your ways and refuse to look at this new book with an open mind so Im not even going to try to respond. There are more ways to do all the things I mentioned, you just have to read the book and think.

 

Its really sad how people are just dropping khorne because their new OP thing isnt handed to them and they have to work it out. I hope the best for you with your new army. We can now talk on this thread more about how to actually make a decent list rather than constant whining, which has been non stop since people's first glance. 

[Broken Netcode]

4 minutes ago, peasant said:

Hi! Can a doombull khorne marked be a skullfiend trine general and get both command trait and artifact?

Yup! Nothing stopping it from what I see! I do have to say thats a nasty combo right there!

[Revan123]

3 minutes ago, Broken Netcode said:

I can see that youre set in your ways and refuse to look at this new book with an open mind so Im not even going to try to respond. There are more ways to do all the things I mentioned, you just have to read the book and think.

Why? I love discussions and wanted to find things in the book. But I prefer to operate with details, calculating and discussing tactics, not just undetailed strategy like take this and you somehow will win. 

No, lets just go through my list, why not? This is just a mind game, is that bad? 

I say that raptors of Stormcast is a threat, we can't handle. Tell me your ways how you can handle it, suggest units, army building, how you are going to act. Will you go first? Second? What are going to do with objectives at the same time? 

Because this is really easy to say - you just don't understand the book and don't want to read it. I

[Broken Netcode]

3 minutes ago, Revan123 said:

Why? I love discussions and wanted to find things in the book. But I prefer to operate with details, calculating and discussing tactics, not just undetailed strategy like take this and you somehow will win. 

No, lets just go through my list, why not? This is just a mind game, is that bad? 

I say that raptors of Stormcast is a threat, we can't handle. Tell me your ways how you can handle it, suggest units, army building, how you are going to act. Will you go first? Second? What are going to do with objectives at the same time? 

Because this is really easy to say - you just don't understand the book and don't want to read it. I

Im not going to bother telling you as I will be wasting my breath. You can work it out quite clearly when you actually work out how to exploit the enemy weakness with a list you create.

 

Im now officially done with this thread, way too much whining for my liking. Who would have known Khorne's blood had the highest salt content of them all!

[Revan123]

Quote

Im not going to bother telling you as I will be wasting my breath. You can work it out quite clearly when you actually work out how to exploit the enemy weakness with a list you create.

Alright, I got that one ^^ 

[mastercrafted]

5 hours ago, Luke1705 said:

Yep unless otherwise stated

Oh this just made my day. Even better than i thought it was

[Fredster001]

Having just read through 5-6 pages of doom and despair, I'm honestly like- man up you miserable sods!

Moan, moan, moan....blah, blah, blah

Played 5 games, won 3, took filthy IDK eel list to the absolute edge and only lost because of a failed charge T5!

Khorne are better now, not worse, play some games instead of moaning about them, you're old tactics won't work because they are O-L-D! Don't even try!

As for the guy who forgot Skullreapers cause MW on 6's...wake up dude, they hit like a ton of bricks.

Got no time to moan, got skulls to take...

 

[Fredster001]

2 hours ago, Revan123 said:

Will you be able to charge first or reach raptors, jumping accross the field? I could not even with charging after advance

Only tyrants of blood can kill 30 berzerkers with 4+ fnp and rerollable save. But shooting and opponent's charges mostly kill thirster, who are not tanky at all

From who? Scarbrand? He is alone. Letters? Ok, with unmodified 6's you kill somewhat 10-15 chainrasps. They kill letters, who are not fearless not with no problem. 

Opponent wiil strike you first and just kill. End of the story

Do you have any choice when to strike? Allow enemy to secure objectives? Hold more ground? Alright, you kill 80 monks in double turn. Another 80 will kill thirsters in one go.

I don't want easy win. I get interesting wins with nurgles. Here we can calcute a lot of situations, where Khorne will be not competative at all. At the tournament, where you don't have choice to choose army you play against, not a lot of options for Khorne to deal with most opponents with one army list.

When you just CAN'T play against some armies at all, no matter your skill and only hoping with luck on dices - this is not a way to go.

Since when book gets better with passing time? Quite opposite, it will be worse with changing meta mostly and nerfing faq's, like tzeench had. 

Go play something else then...

[Smooth criminal]

The demons are great.
Their slaughterhosts are great, their battalions provide for a mix of units.
Most of their units are good and even crushers while being weak are cheap enough to spam for mw output.
They have nobrain power strategies of thirster battalion, "fight again for CP" ability and cannons+mongers.

Mortals are weak.
They are slow. Demons are slow too, but mortals are slower.
They have weak scaling with offensive buffs because of low model count. Not attacking in two rows is a weakness of Khorne in general, but at least letters have lots of bodies.
They have very weak battleline. To the point it may be better to take doggos/letters even in a mortal slaughterhost. I think 1 warriors unit (for a battalion) and 2 doggos is my default mortal battleline for the near future.

Things that I'd try to make mortals work:
- skullreapers in anti-rend battalion. Skullreapers are interesting unit because they don't need any support. Not even a bloodsecrator really since he has very bad scaling with them. Reroll hit, reroll 1s to wound in a host, no morale, can kill tough things with mortals, can kill horde things with attack volume. Giving them anti-rend and priest will also make them quite tough. Tough enough to carry the whole army? Who knows.
- wrathmonger spam. They are the best thing per point that mortals have, 1 10man unit basically has output of 30 letters and costs slightly less while having some  upsides over letters. They are also the only dudes who can attack in multiple rows or attack through your other dudes. They also have a good battalion and a good exclusive CP ability from Skarr.
- Korghos Khul. While playing Goretide you're basically rerolling 1's on hit/wound with him and host bonus. That should be great on our 3+/3+ dudes which are our main damage dealers.
- spamming priests. Priests are pretty much our best support heroes and unlike demons mortals can have multiple priests in a battalion.
- skullcrushers. You can apply skullreapers reasoning here except they are faster and don't need anti-rend because they are already 3+. What I think is their main upside is mortal output outside of combat phase since entering combat phase gets more and more dangerous nowadays with more fight first stuff around.  Also they can charge and vomit mws with a 3 blood point ability, that's cheaper that fighting for 4 and has longer range.

Then there is always a possibility of playing demon slaughterhost with bunch of letters and skullreapers/skullcrushers as your second wave. Or thirster battalion with a fight first artifact + some mortal battalion. The upside of playing mortals is that they won't get shredded in shooting phase.

StD future release may improve mortals wherever it may happen. I wouldn't count on that though since GW puts all of the good stuff in allegiance bonuses nowadays.

On a side note slaughterhost bonuses are pretty much mandatory. None of the base command abilities outweight what slaughterhosts provide. If you're not in slaughterhost you're actuvely harming yourself.

[ChaosUndivided]

I noticed after Darksteve's question that Skulltaker's command ability does in fact have Bloodletters in bold print in the book but not in the Azyr app. The latest publication (book) is always right, Azyr has several mistakes, so be on the lookout for that.

[Luke82]

Got my first tournament coming up and picked Khorne for lullz and skullz.

 

I’m looking to pick up a few more models and get painting ASAP so want to make sure my list is not complete nonsense if anyone would mind taking a look? I am realistic about not winning my first competitive event but also don’t want to get completely stomped!

 

Reapers of Vengeance

 

Battalion; Blood Host

General

Blood thirster of insensate rage

2+ to hit artefact

 

6 bloodcrushers

20 bloodletters

20 bloodletters

Skull cannon

5 flesh hounds

5 flesh hounds 

Bloodmaster Herald

 

Slaughterpriest

2+ ignore spells artefact

Bronzed flesh

 

10 bloodwarriors

 

Bleeding Icon

Wrath axe

 

The basic plan is to hold back the bloodwarriors and skull cannon or hounds on my own objectives and send the other daemons forth to conquer, with the bloodthirster hacking away twice on his 2+ to hit. Slaughterpriest will chill out on his skull altar and call forth the Judgements and dish out some buffs.

[Broken Netcode]

1 hour ago, Fredster001 said:

Having just read through 5-6 pages of doom and despair, I'm honestly like- man up you miserable sods!

Moan, moan, moan....blah, blah, blah

Played 5 games, won 3, took filthy IDK eel list to the absolute edge and only lost because of a failed charge T5!

Khorne are better now, not worse, play some games instead of moaning about them, you're old tactics won't work because they are O-L-D! Don't even try!

As for the guy who forgot Skullreapers cause MW on 6's...wake up dude, they hit like a ton of bricks.

Got no time to moan, got skulls to take...

 

Exactly my sentiment. I just wanna talk about how great khorne is now and all I get are tears of self loathing. Its really not that hard to make a list that works really well with the new book, it just takes a lot of reading and working out what pairs well with what.

 

Ill be willing to buy models off the people quitting cheaply any day though! Give them a proper home and all!

 

 

[Revan123]

1 hour ago, Fredster001 said:

Played 5 games, won 3, took filthy IDK eel list to the absolute edge and only lost because of a failed charge T5!

I would like to see your and opponents list

Quote

Khorne are better now, not worse

He was at bad state, in many things he became better, I agree. Main problems remain through

1 hour ago, Fredster001 said:

Go play something else then...

Oh, yeah, of course, this is the best advice^^ In 40k people suggest to go for Imperial Guard. Yeah, this is the solving of the problem

Quote

 and cannons+mongers.

for now... 

Quote

10man unit basically has output of 30 letters and costs slightly less while having some  upsides over letters. 

it would be interesting to see math behind this statement

21 minutes ago, Broken Netcode said:

I just wanna talk about how great khorne

me too, you don't^^

21 minutes ago, Broken Netcode said:

Its really not that hard to make a list that works really well with the new book

I still not see anything here suggested against opponents I listed before. As for me, I can provide 4-5 lists I would take for tournament and I can tell why they are will not work in 60-70 percent of situations

[Fredster001]

2 minutes ago, Broken Netcode said:

Exactly my sentiment. I just wanna talk about how great khorne is now and all I get are tears of self loathing. Its really not that hard to make a list that works really well with the new book, it just takes a lot of reading and working out what pairs well with what.

Stuff I like:

Valkia and the Bleeding Icon ( sounds like Nordic Noir!), what an awesome combo. We never had -1 to hit on our side and now we get two that  can be used in combination!

Blood Warriors now attrition even harder with punchy fist

So far I prefer Goretide over Skullfiend, the re roll 1's to Wound near Objectives leans better to battlefield control than reroll 1's to hit near enemy heroes, plus the run and charge CA is really good. I didn't mind the 6's add 1 for damage but those armies with a ++ save, they tend to reduce it's effectiveness.

A Bloodsecrator that can keep pace with 20/30/40 Reavers without having to take Gore Pilgrims - How good is that add in a Stoker, Bloodmad and Goretide and you've got Reavers going 16" Charging 2D6+4" with 4 attacks each - Yes I know you have to keep within 16" of Secrator but you can with careful positioning.

Chuck a Skull Helm on an Aspiring Champion and summon the Bleeding Icon and watch 6 Eels disappear! That's 24 wounds for  a failed battleshock test! That's a really useful combo.

Skullrapers...nuff said

Haven't played with my Mighty Skullcrushers yet, but I'm keep to try them - hello tarpit.

Anti magic - Skulls, Altar, Secrator, numerous artifacts, Priests, etc etc

And I haven't even got my  Daemons out yet...

This book has someway to go yet before I'm convinced  its poor and I'll use my my tabletop experience to form my judgement on Khorne (geddit!)