AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[SmileB4uDieXD]

In the old book they had a bit that plainly stated you could use both but they removed it so they thought I couldn’t anymore and the fact that the guy at gw said you couldn’t didn’t help my case as they think of him as god when it comes to rules. I showed them new YouTube videos of people using the new battle tome and them casting a prayer and blood blessing, I showed them recent forums of other khorne players and none of them believe me it’s ridiculous 

[ChaosUndivided]

@SmileB4uDieXD They scared lol. Seriously i got into heated debate with a GW rep during a game about the new unbind rules. He was trying to say i had to give up a prayer to use unbind the way a wizard has to spend a spell cast. It took a 3rd person to agree with me based on wording there was no such rule when it comes to Khorne's unbinding. The whole thing really stemmed from what seemed to be his perception that the new rules for Khorne are just OP which isn't really the case.

[Broken Netcode]

2 hours ago, Impa said:

What realm is that artefact from? That’s a good idea! Where can I read about this one? 

Its from the realm of beasts I believe! I was seeing a lot of people use Ghyrstrike and I was thinking "that wounding buff is wasted what else is there?" and thus I came across that! Its certainly a combo that would destroy any plan your opponent has!

[Killax]

1 hour ago, SmileB4uDieXD said:

In the old book they had a bit that plainly stated you could use both but they removed it so they thought I couldn’t anymore and the fact that the guy at gw said you couldn’t didn’t help my case as they think of him as god when it comes to rules. I showed them new YouTube videos of people using the new battle tome and them casting a prayer and blood blessing, I showed them recent forums of other khorne players and none of them believe me it’s ridiculous 

That's super lame. What you could do is shoot a mail to the AoS FAQ team or put it on the Games Workshop website. Because I will agree the wording is a bit unclear to some still.

Thing is, and that's the easiest thake on it from me, nowhere does it state that you do X instead of Y. It's just that the Slaughterpriest can do A or B based on Warscroll, choose a C based on Blood Blessing which is limited to 1 and Summon D which is limited to one.

[Killax]

54 minutes ago, ChaosUndivided said:

@SmileB4uDieXD They scared lol. Seriously i got into heated debate with a GW rep during a game about the new unbind rules. He was trying to say i had to give up a prayer to use unbind the way a wizard has to spend a spell cast. It took a 3rd person to agree with me based on wording there was no such rule when it comes to Khorne's unbinding. The whole thing really stemmed from what seemed to be his perception that the new rules for Khorne are just OP which isn't really the case.

The hate carries on and on when I think about it. Where before the Bloodsecrator was the center of attention some are going wild over Wrathmongers and Skullcannons.

What I will say about this Blades of Khorne is that it's the strangest version of Fantasy Khorne I've seen so far. What I mean by this is that out of all things possible we got a Scenery Piece who buffs prayers and Endless Spells. On top of that Slaughterpriests indeed do EVERYTHING for this army now  Where before the Bloodsecrator did, for as long as it could stack offcourse.

This Khorne really isn't overpowered. It is a hard awnser to armies who heavily rely on Magic however and now we do have Ranged offense.

On the flipside is that is that we do not go as fast as we used to, arn't immume to Battleshock and we need this Ranged/Prayer offense to actually work because we cannot rely solely on melee combat anymore. There are other armies who's melee combat is simply said better.

[Praecautus]

32 minutes ago, Broken Netcode said:

Its from the realm of beasts I believe! I was seeing a lot of people use Ghyrstrike and I was thinking "that wounding buff is wasted what else is there?" and thus I came across that! Its certainly a combo that would destroy any plan your opponent has!

I like it, it’s got me thinking who else would make a good recipient of it.

[Praecautus]

So I am considering where and how to evolve my previous list and would appreciate some advice. Any thoughts on where to take this lot?

My current list is

Daemon Prince, genera, blade of judgement, immense power

3 priests

Blood secrator

Blood stoker

4x10 reavers

2x10 warriors

5 skull reapers

Warshrine

Khorgorath

Gorepilgrims

 

I also own

WoK BT

10 bloodletters

Herald

Skull cannon

3 skull crushers, one of whom doubles as

Lord of khorne on juggernaut

mighty lord of khorne

 Aspiring death bringer

Exalted deathbringer

Exalted deathbringer w spear

Siull grinder

2 gorebeast chariots

2 more khorgoraths 

Skarr

Valkia

5 wrath mongers 

Skull alter

Judgements

 

I tend to play as a tight unit with the enemy breaking itself on me, as small units and summoned daemons grab objectives while the priests buff the heck out of everyone. Obviously somethings need to change.

I don’t play tournaments but have a fairly competitive club and I do like an army that won’t fold/will give a good fight even if I lose.

I like interesting painting projects.

I am keen to explore some new battalions and models

 

So what next? Give me some thoughts to evolve the list

The bare minimum is to use the list above plus axe and alter.  My gut is telling me 5 skull reapers and a rejig to get the wrath-cannon combo. I also feel my daemons are lacking for summons - May 10 letters and 5-10 hounds?

What would you change  and why?

Edited March 31, 2019 by Praecautus

[Impa]

21 hours ago, Broken Netcode said:

Its from the realm of beasts I believe! I was seeing a lot of people use Ghyrstrike and I was thinking "that wounding buff is wasted what else is there?" and thus I came across that! Its certainly a combo that would destroy any plan your opponent has!

Well exactly! He needs that +1 hit from something! So this is perfect. I just need to find a list of artefacts and the realms so my opponents don’t question it. Thanks again. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Impa

[ChaosUndivided]

19 minutes ago, Killax said:

What I will say about this Blades of Khorne is that it's the strangest version of Fantasy Khorne I've seen so far. What I mean by this is that out of all things possible we got a Scenery Piece who buffs prayers and Endless Spells. On top of that Slaughterpriests indeed do EVERYTHING for this army now

Yes, its comical our Priest are better wizards than actual wizards and to top it off we get a free wizard tower. Honestly it cracks me up but also its like GW to do stuff like this where you completely turn something upside down and reverse it (im thinking about dwarfs that live underground to now dwarfs live in clouds and elfs are not in woods but under water). Personally i enjoy this "flavor" of Khorne but i don't really like how dependant on Priest we are right now and oh boy i would love to just slay in melee like we're supposed to.

 

8 minutes ago, Praecautus said:

What would you add and why?

You don't need 4xReavers without battleshock immunity they are trash tier. You can bring 1 or 2 for objective grabbing while everything else does the fighting tho.

You got 2x10 Warriors thats good but make sure to run gorefist. More Reapers and Mongers for sure like 2x5 of each can't hurt.

You say you like to let enemy break themselves on you then your in the right army ATM. Run Slaughterborn battalion against anyone who relies on rend and you will love it.

Killax will probably suggest a 2nd cannon to compliment your other and Mongers. I dont plan on going that rout simply cuz i like 100% mortal list. Instead i would take your Warshrine and load up on Judgments. The large base size of Judgements works good to block and funnel enemy soldiers and control board if nothing else.

[Battlefury]

@SmileB4uDieXDHe can cast one of his generic prayers.  And one of the choosable prayers, that you have chosen for him. And one of the chosen judgements.

At leasts, that's what I interpreted of the rules set.

@ChaosUndividedMakes sense. So what I learned is, that Khorne is a more situational force, where the tools of need are wisely to be chosen. Adapting the plan is necessary and benefitial. Thank you for that advice!

@KillaxI agree with your points. I might have misinterpreted the individual role of several units. What you say makes absolutely sense! I suggest, I need to see the new combinations due to the rules first. As you told me how you see it should work well there.
Then I am gonna reevaluate the generell army plan, as @ChaosUndividedstated. Gotta see the changed possibilities.

I thin my biggest issue with the army / book right now was, that I totally misunderstood the roles.
Guess that's really the biggest point here.

Thank you for your advice!
I am going to have a look, how to actually build up a list with my stuff, maybe get new units, as you both stated!

Cheers///

[Bululu]

4 hours ago, Impa said:

Thanks for the in depth analysis. Awe man that’s unfortunate. Was he not getting his hit rolls in?  That 4+ to hit unbuffed is his Achilles heal for sure. I’m assuming we’d have to killing frenzy and burn an artefact slot to bring him to 2+ To have high percent of him being useful. But with all this wholly within stuff the entire army seems to be based around. We’re limited with who goes where. I’ve got a game next week I will hopefully get in and report after! 

Combination of bad hit, none six on wound or nighthaunt ethereal passing armor tests, etc. I mean BT can be destructive but it is very irregular, can make carnage or can do nothing, that is pretty spread on the battletome with multiple "on unmodified 6 bla bla" we lost some raw power in exchange of gambling power i guess

[Bululu]

4 hours ago, Killax said:

Great info. I just cut out the part because my quote wall is going to be big aswell. 
- I agree with you on the Hexgorger Skulls, though I think that a key part of them is to disrupt magic, not to really do more. So their effect will massively differ per whatever ammount of magic your opponent took that day. I think that their range isn't low, but if your opponent spreads out just focus them on their most dangerous Wizard/Sorcerer.
- Axe indeed is the best 60 points we have, it feels like another 2 Blood Boils to me most of the time, provided your opponent is comming for you offcourse. 
- Indeed the effectiveness of this Blades of Khorne comes with toolboxing and mixed melee and ranged support. Different but still very effective.
- From my perspective the must get Daemon Leaders are basically Bloodthirsters, Karanak and Skulltaker. The rest just doesn't seem all that interesting. This is purely because there are no real great Battalions for them either. For example if Murderhost had a 1-3 Bloodletter Hero slot inclusion it would have been much better and much more functional as a Battalion. Daemons to that extend suffer more from linchpin Battalion designs.

Having said that, a Khorne Daemon focus can still be easily done. Plus Tyrants of Blood is certainly something else, as you create a super scarry Bloodthirster Hammer Trio.

Seems like you had great fun with the new army!

Yeah I still really like them as a unit of 10. The Goreglaive helps them doing work, so do the Gorefists. But largely I like them to fill that Battleline slot. Anything more and Wrathmongers and Skullreapers just offer more. Not only because they too do something on the backswing but also because Skarr can make Wrathmongers turn into Kamikaze units. In addition a dedicated Bloodsecrator or Deathrbinger with Skullreaper units does a ton of work too.

Personally I have skipped Bloodreavers in my lists so far. They are a nice 70 point filler but I still feel, especially with the Tower being a summonning focus point too, that Fleshhounds just do more here. What I am somewhat bummed about is that Bloodreavers didn't get a rule that at 20+ they just ignore Battleshock. Now they arn't interesting as chaff to me or a blob... But enough alternative options are there, so I'm not upset  

I don't really agree with you that Bloodletters or Bloodthirsters are the third wave... Nor do I see Bloodreavers as a second wave unit.
The plan in that essence is simple:
- Blood Warriors/Bloodletters/Bloodthirsters are the first wave. Bloodthirsters just aim to thake out key units, or respond to a key unit being open (ergo, there is no screen to protect them at that time)
- Anvils in Khorne work now due to Endless Spells. It's because of the Wrath Axe that I can see the value of Blood Warriors aswell, as long as they remain, you will have hits work out. In addition the same applies to Skullcrushers. They arn't there to punch through, but rather to get the enemy stuck. They are so similar now due to what the Goretide host does for Blood Warriors.
- Skullreapers/Wrathmongers/Khorgorath are the second wave or basically the big fat hammer. They can thake out whatever, but you need to be given the option to do so. Losing them quickly can make or break the game, so their use should be implemented more carefully. For Skullreapers a dedicated hero is needed, for Wrathmongers to do scary things a Skarr is fine.
- Then, largely for objective purposes I would say things like Bloodreavers/Skullcannons are the last wave. They work best when left alone. For Bloodreavers it's just hanging around Objectives, for Skullcannons they can move and continue their annoyance. Only to meddle in if it means we're in a end game or the oppertunity allows for it.

But I do think we agree on this tactic: 
1. Anvil/Tarpit the enemy OR thake out key pieces if the opponent allows you to do this.
2. Apply Hammer to where needed.
3. Secure the game by using your cheap/ranged units to keep objectives. 

Cheers!
 

I'd say both are priced correctly but their use is massively different in my opinion. What I would say is something I agree with is that usually if your going for the stuff beyond 140 point heroes you might aswell consider a Bloodthirster instead.

What makes the Daemon Prince good is mobility and the ability to support in combat.
What makes the Khorne Lord on Juggernaut good is the survivability and eventual support in combat.

Neither (sadly) really do something for Blades of Khorne as do their equivelants in other armies. Because in that same vein Daemon Princes of Nurgle with Plagubearer Flies, Disc Goats or Seekers do really make a punch out of nowhere. In addition a Khorne Lord on Jugger is fun but not nearly as key as Slaughterpriest giving Skullcrushers Bronze Flesh.

Plus lastly, the hero nobody really seems to talk about on the forums, Skarr, is the real goat if you want to have a survial hero anyway.  

Yes mate, i sure did have  a great fun, and yeah i plan trying the bloodlord trio + 2 cannons to a competitive list for next tournament, i think it can do a pretty good job. I have yet to mount my karanak and hounds and i only have 5  but definitely want to give them some tries

[Darksteve]

@Killax

How do you use bloodletters in your first wave? I've been taking msu reavers as my initial speedbumps in my cannon focused list at 1000 points, but I was curious why you thought letters made a better screen. Usually I have the spare cp to make them bs immune and at 70 point/10 they speed bump pretty well on 32mm bases.

[Reezark_SP]

Hey quick question... does Skulltaker's command ability only affect Bloodletters or can it affect any unit with the Bloodletter keyword?

[ChaosUndivided]

@Reezark_SP As the word Bloodletters is not bold than it refers to specifically the unit. Bold lettering implys anything with that keyword.

[jazman84]

5 hours ago, Killax said:

What I will say about this Blades of Khorne is that it's the strangest version of Fantasy Khorne I've seen so far. What I mean by this is that out of all things possible we got a Scenery Piece who buffs prayers and Endless Spells. On top of that Slaughterpriests indeed do EVERYTHING for this army now  Where before the Bloodsecrator did, for as long as it could stack offcourse.

 

And I hate it... What have they done to my Khorne?

[Broken Netcode]

So just played another game today. Oh boy this one really showed me the power of Khorne!

My list was:

Allegiance: Khorne
- Slaughterhost: Reapers of Vengeance
Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut 
- General
- Trait: Mage Eater 
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage 
- Artefact: Amberglaive 
Slaughterpriest
- Artefact: Skullshard Mantle 
- Blood Blessing: Killing Frenzy
Bloodsecrator 
Bloodstoker

Battleline
9 x Mighty Skullcrushers 
- Bloodglaives
30 x Bloodletters 
10 x Bloodreavers 
- Reaver Blades
10 x Bloodreavers 
- Reaver Blades
10 x Bloodreavers
- Reaver Blades

Battalions
Dark Feast 

Endless Spells
Wrath-Axe

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 143
 

We played the mission where only characters can claim objectives. My opponent was skaven and had massive blobs of clanrats in around 40 of size, and one Stormvermin of either 20 or 30. I made sure I went 2nd so that my enemy would have to come closer to me granting me a chance to either kill off his heros so he cant score, or I charge his blobs t1. Bloodstoker whipped the Skullcrushers, granting them +4" to charge rolls! They managed to charge a blob of Stormvermin killing 14 of them before any weapons were swung! The remaining combat I managed to wipe the rest of them out before they struck me back.

Bloodreavers were a massive let down. Even when buffed by Dark Feast and a Bloodsecrator they did measly damage vs clanrats only killing 8 or so from 40 attacks. At least they were good tithe points!

Wrath Axe lives up to what you think, its so good im going to include it in every list I make in the future. Having 1 priest did make it hard to me to juggle it but I barely managed. The -1 to hit for non khorne units is too good to pass up let alone the damage output!

Bloodthirster did exactly what I wanted it to, smacking into a core unit and making it go into fetal position to cry. With only 1 mortal wound proc going off, I still managed to do massive damage to the 40 clanrats and took minimal damage in return. He did die later to 2 lighting cannons, but I summoned him back where he helped snipe some characters. The 3" range was a godsend as I could pick and choose what I wanted to turn into pink mist!

Bloodletters didnt do much this game as they were shot down by pesky skaven shooting, but I still believe they are the best battleline we have besides dogs. In my next list ill give them much more support with the skulltaker and even put them in murderhost.

Lastly, the Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut. My favourite character/unit in the game and made me get into khorne, wasnt that great. He was parked on an objective for 2 turns sure but 2 lightning cannons finished him off pretty quickly. For someone who is meant to be a tanky damage dealer hes somewhat underwhelming. Still though, a nice pick for those games where you just dont care about the outcome.

 

Overall, I had immense fun slaughtering the vermintide. MVP had to be the Skullcrushers. They are straight up insane at 9 strong and you need to lose 20 wounds on them before you lose the D3 charge damage. Dark Feast being a let down leads me to Murderhost so that my Bloodletters can get into combat quicker as I feel that is their main weakness. Will be swapping the Bloodreavers for Hounds for the anti magic and decent chaff removal. Also replacing the Juggerlord with the Skulltaker so that I have a use for my command points outside of the Bloodthirster. 

[fwlr]

So I've got a question:

For a tyrants of blood bloodlords list, what is the optimal battleline do you reckon? 

So the core of the list is:

3 thirsters, with/without skarbrand, in the battalion with the obvious buffs. Comes at a minimum to 980 (triple IR) and a max of 1180 (2 WoK+skar). These are both suboptimal combos, I'd say the best is wrath of khorne with insensate with skarbrand. That's 1140

So the vital double slaughterpriest with axe is another 260, bringing to 1400.

Then it's up for grabs. Personally I'd go for a secrator to make skarbrand better and buff the battleline stuff. So there's 1540 points.

Now there's 460 left for some battleline. Many options available:

Flesh hounds and some reavers/warriors

Warriors on their own

A combo of warriors and reavers, possibly gore pilgrims to make the secrator even better, though it's quite a points sink in non models. 

Maybe some wrathmongers alongside?

 

What do people think?

[Keith]

11 hours ago, Killax said:

Great video and army mate, think this will work out fine. I do also think you want want to cap it at two Skullcannons so you can include another unit of Wrathmongers to be around the Bloodletters. But either way the list looks very strong. Personally I wouldn't bother with the Icon.

You could drop another unit of Bloodreavers, upgrade the Icon to Axe and have another CP. I think that's better. 

Good points , I dont have a 2nd unit of Wrathmongers , but the Bloodsecrator's days are numbered.

It's Bloodsecrator vs Wrathmomgers , and I think the Wrathmongers are going to win that battle and take the 140 points.

I just cant fit all the Bloodleters in and take Slaughterpriests , AND take Judgements , AND take a thirster , AND take a battalion. It's going to be fun working it all out.

[ChaosUndivided]

1 hour ago, fwlr said:

What do people think?

There kinda isnt room left to do much interesting things since you still need 3 battleline.

I would do 2x10 Reavers just for chaff, Flesh Hounds cuz 5 hounds is probably better than 5 lonely Warriors, then 5 Reapers and another Judgment bringing you to exactly 2k. 

Alternatively 3x10 Reavers, 5 Mongers, and Garrek's brings you to 1950.

The Reavers are to either screen, die, or hold objective, nothing else. Use Mongers to buff Thirsters or use Reapers to clean up what the Thirsters don't finish.

Edited April 1, 2019 by ChaosUndivided

[Darksteve]

Forgive me if this has been asked before, but iisbthere a rule that says that only daemons or mortals can be taken in a slailighterhost? For example I cant see anything that stops me from taking a mighty lord of khorne as my general in The Bloodlords and givinghim the command trait and halo of blood artefact.

Second question. Can the slaughterhost specific artefacts and traits be taken outside the slaughterhost?

Third question. Skulltaker's command ability has the word Bloodletters bolded and in all caps, indicating its meant as a keyword. Bloodletters the unit had the Bloodletters keyword but skull cannons only have the Bloodletter keyword. Does Skulltaker's ability not work on the cannon then? If so does the Bloodmaster's "The Blood Must Flow" ability not work on Bloodletters as it specifies the Bloodletter keyword and not the Bloodletters keyword as the Bloodletters unit does not have the Bloodletter keyword.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Darksteve
Added a question to avoid double post.

[Luke1705]

To the first question: no such rule. You’re good to go

To the second: no you can’t do that

To the third: it works. GW doesn’t think too hard about plural keywords

[Darksteve]

2 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:

To the first question: no such rule. You’re good to go

To the second: no you can’t do that

To the third: it works. GW doesn’t think too hard about plural keywords

Awesome! Im looking foreward to mighty lord running around with 9" of move and always fighting first :).

Followup: Does the command ability get given to every hero in the slaughterhost?

[Luke1705]

For fwlr: I’d say it depends on whether you’re going reapers of vengeance or bloodlords. Reapers needs more command points, and you really need 2 slaughterpriests, so you’ve basically only got points for 3 min battle line and you call it a day (though to be fair you might not need 4 extra command points like I play them, but I burn through the CP so fast!)

(I also run an exalted thirster with skarbrand so it’s basically like I’m running 4 thirsters in the battalion)

I go back and forth on the axe. Not super reliable for 60 points. Definitely don’t need the bloodsectrator with wholly within 16” now. Bloodthirsters charge out of that so fast.

Basically I think battleline is just chaff and blood tithe points. Go as minimum small and cheap you can and I think it’ll work nicely.

Bloodlords might be able to sneak in more stuff as you’re a lot less CP dependant. I’d probably want to go for skullreapers, but flesh hounds are really nice fast objective cappers

[Luke1705]

1 minute ago, Darksteve said:

Awesome! Im looking foreward to mighty lord running around with 9" of move and always fighting first :).

Followup: Does the command ability get given to every hero in the slaughterhost?

Yep unless otherwise stated