AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Luke.w]

2 minutes ago, AresX8 said:

@Luke.w He's had that before, the extra attack on Slaughter is nice, the real kicker is that since Carnage autohits, the more attacks we can throw on him, the bette, like imagine doing 24 mortal wounds automatically  when within range of a Bloodsecrator and Wrathmongers. That's no joke!

Im definitely considering just such a list. When u say he had that before, do you mean his rage mechanic because before it just gave him rerolls etc. And he only got to high attacks and 1+ carnage when he had  actually taken 13 wounds.

Tyrants of blood may be really strong with skarbrand in the mix

Edited March 16, 2019 by Luke.w

[AresX8]

I've also seen that our Juggernaut Lord doing a lot of damage when given Gorecleaver still exists.

Daemonic Axe says that on an unmodified wound roll of 6, the Damage characteristic for that attack is 3 instead of D3.

Gorecleaver now says that an attack made with that weapon is an unmodified wound roll of 6, double the Damage characteristic for that attack. It keeps the Rend improvement by 1.

So since we're the active player when this occurs, we can have the Damage characteristic set to 3 first, and then get doubled by Gorecleaver. So that's a massive 6 damage at -2 Rend on a 6 to wound. 7 if he's from Goretide.

That's disgustingly good and I can't wait to field him.

[Bjornas]

24 minutes ago, AresX8 said:

I've also seen that our Juggernaut Lord doing a lot of damage when given Gorecleaver still exists.

Daemonic Axe says that on an unmodified wound roll of 6, the Damage characteristic for that attack is 3 instead of D3.

Gorecleaver now says that an attack made with that weapon is an unmodified wound roll of 6, double the Damage characteristic for that attack. It keeps the Rend improvement by 1.

So since we're the active player when this occurs, we can have the Damage characteristic set to 3 first, and then get doubled by Gorecleaver. So that's a massive 6 damage at -2 Rend on a 6 to wound. 7 if he's from Goretide.

That's disgustingly good and I can't wait to field him.

Damn. Can you give several artifacts to one character though? Thinking of the Slaughterhost artifacts.

[kenshin620]

1 minute ago, Bjornas said:

Damn. Can you give several artifacts to one character though? Thinking of the Slaughterhost artifacts.

Daemonic Axe is the name of the Jugger-Lord's ability. It's not an item.

[phizzco]

32 minutes ago, AresX8 said:

I've also seen that our Juggernaut Lord doing a lot of damage when given Gorecleaver still exists.

Daemonic Axe says that on an unmodified wound roll of 6, the Damage characteristic for that attack is 3 instead of D3.

Gorecleaver now says that an attack made with that weapon is an unmodified wound roll of 6, double the Damage characteristic for that attack. It keeps the Rend improvement by 1.

So since we're the active player when this occurs, we can have the Damage characteristic set to 3 first, and then get doubled by Gorecleaver. So that's a massive 6 damage at -2 Rend on a 6 to wound. 7 if he's from Goretide.

That's disgustingly good and I can't wait to field him.

Seems like everything here has us betting on rolling 6's all day.

[Bjornas]

Just now, kenshin620 said:

Daemonic Axe is the name of the Jugger-Lord's ability. It's not an item.

Yeah I was thinking of the Gorecleaver. Since if he gets the Slaughterhost (Goretide) trait he gets an artifact as well.

You can let another character be the general I guess but who's a cooler general than the Juggerlord.

[kenshin620]

Well theres no item mixing.....yet. Who knows what will happen in AoS 3.0!

[Luke.w]

Here's what I am thinking for a list.

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage  280
-slaughterous Thirst
-Halo of Blood

Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster  320
-Blade of Symmetry

Skarbrand  400

Bloodsecrator  140
-Talisman of Burning Blood

Slaughterpriest  100
-Bronzed Flesh

Slaughterpriest  100
-Killing Frenzy

10 Bloodreavers

10 Bloodreavers

10 Bloodreavers

5 Wrathmongers

Gore Pilgrims 140
Tyrants of Blood 140


Bloodlords

 

The Bloodthirsters are all super killy. The WoK gets +1 damage. Insensate rage will be target for +1 to hit and save from slaighterpriests for more reliable damage and survivability. All the bloodthirsters rr 1s to hit now from the new locus allegiance ability. They will also rr 1s to wound against heroes/monsters from being bloodlords. The WoK can also dispense rr to hit with command ability and this can be used on multiple targets in key combats given that you start with 2 extra command points. 

The bloodsecrator is carrying the talisman for +1 to run and charge for a bit of speed when needed. The Insensate Rage has +4 movement and rr charges to ensure he can get into combat on key turns. Once in, he will ummediately pile in and attack. This will activate the tyrants of blood ability which lets the WoK and Skarbrand immediately pile in and attack. This also comes into effect on the enemy's turn so that even if you are charged, you can still hit really hard. 

The wrathmongers provide +1 attack in a small bubble. These will sit near skarbrand for two reaons. It will prevent enemy units from encircling the big guy and give an extra attacj on carnage. The aim is three attacks on carnage for guaranteed 24 mortal wounds on enemy unit of choice. These can be spread into multiples of 8 which is nice for killing squishy heroes in the backline.

The list is 3 drops so most of the time you can choose to let the enemy go first. The list is not that fast and skarbrand isnt angry until battle round 2, so thats when it looks to engage. With 30 bloodreavers,  chaff should not be a problem.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Luke.w

[AresX8]

9 minutes ago, Bjornas said:

Damn. Can you give several artifacts to one character though? Thinking of the Slaughterhost artifacts.

You cannot. What you can do though, is you give the Goretide's mandatory artifact to your Bloodsecrator, who benefits the most from it anyway since he's now mobile. It also seems worth it now to take double battalions since we really need more artifacts and starting command points. Definitely how I'm starting my lists

Edited March 16, 2019 by AresX8

[Bjornas]

Also I've been thinking about the Blood Warriors weapon choices. Since we're getting pretty easy access to re-roll to hit through the Slaughterhosts, do you think the double axes will be worth it over the brass knuckles?

[Surtur]

8 minutes ago, Bjornas said:

Yeah I was thinking of the Gorecleaver. Since if he gets the Slaughterhost (Goretide) trait he gets an artifact as well.

You can let another character be the general I guess but who's a cooler general than the Juggerlord.

For clarification: I thought choosing the Goretide will ask of you that the first artefact given is the one given by the subfaction. Fine. Do you have to give it to your general? Because if not, I’d give it to another, take a Battalion and give Gorecleaver to the Lord on Jugger. Together with the mandatory Trait... The idea of doing 8 Damage in one swoop fell... That is Khorne.

Edit: Answered above. This is how Khorne wants you to roll!

Edit No. 2: Guys - 8 Damage. I only see it now. It’s Khorne’s favored number. I bet, if you succeed in this you immediately win the game as the board slowly fills with boiling blood.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Surtur

[AresX8]

@Surtur Correct, the first artifact that you give does not have to be to your general. It's only when you give out the first artifact that it has to be the Goretide's.

[Bjornas]

9 minutes ago, AresX8 said:

You cannot. What you can do though, is you give the Goretide's mandatory artifact to your Bloodsecrator, who benefits the most from it anyway since he's now mobile. Definitely how I'm starting my lists

Aha, yea I listened to the youtube preview again (guy talks fast) and it seems you only have to give it to the "first character" and not the general. Cool!

I'm leaning toward Skulleater tribe myself, which would give me a weapon with +2 attacks to hand out. I think it'd be a pretty good fit on the Juggerlord as well to have 5 base attacks. Ah decisions, decisions...

Edited March 16, 2019 by Bjornas

[Surtur]

I like that both mortal subfactions seem to be attractive to people. I lean towards Goretide. And I don’t think Trait nor Artefact are useless “taxes”.

[Retro]

1 hour ago, Luke.w said:

Im definitely considering just such a list. When u say he had that before, do you mean his rage mechanic because before it just gave him rerolls etc. And he only got to high attacks and 1+ carnage when he had  actually taken 13 wounds.

Tyrants of blood may be really strong with skarbrand in the mix

That was a common interpretation of his damage table, and I think how a lot of people played it initially.

It was later FAQed to be the same as what it is on the new warscroll, this way it just removes any confusion.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Retro

[Reuben Parker]

I’m normally a very positive gamer and this book has some good things and seems will allow more varied builds. On the downside apart from mass jugger the power level of the book has taken a nose dive due to no longer being able to combo + hit. As Khorne were already not the top of the competitive heap this is bad news. Especially as all the other recent books have made their respective factions a lot better. 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Reuben Parker

[kenshin620]

20 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

 Especially as all the other recent books have made their respective factions a lot better. 

Kind of an unfair comparison though if you think about it though. BoK enjoyed being one of the OG-allegiances for a good amount of time.

Beasts of Chaos was the laughing stock of chaos, probably no one would have predicted it would have ever happened.

FEC relied on the gimmicky Majestic Horror General trait before their book gave them more variance.

Skaven was a mess of 6 factions and basically was a "themed" Grand Allegiance assuming you wanted anything other than Pestilens or Skryre.

Gloomspite Gitz also was also a themed GA before their book update.

 

Now I'm not saying khorne deserved to be nerfed or anything, but I think there is a logical explanation why the previous battletomes appear as big jumps compared to khorne's "reshuffle". I imagine Tzeentch or Nurgle going through similar "reshuffles" assuming they'll also get updated soon-ish.

Also it does suck Bloodwarriors still have their weapon limitation because they designed the box with ONE SPECIAL WEAPON.

Edited March 16, 2019 by kenshin620

[Rivener]

There are pretty mathematically provable problems with Blood Warriors, but they may yet have value. From an offensive standpoint they are bizarrely weak, but defensively they’re ...okay. Middling, really.  If you run them as Slaughterborn, give them the save boost and Oracular Visions, well now you’re in business as an anvil. 

[Bjornas]

4 minutes ago, Rivener said:

There are pretty mathematically provable problems with Blood Warriors, but they may yet have value. From an offensive standpoint they are bizarrely weak, but defensively they’re ...okay. Middling, really.  If you run them as Slaughterborn, give them the save boost and Oracular Visions, well now you’re in business as an anvil. 

Speaking as one inexperienced with playing as any other AoS faction, what exactly makes them weak?

Edited March 16, 2019 by Bjornas

[Surtur]

I do not know. Everyone seems to think Blood Warriors bad, but fact is you need Battleline and 3x 6 Juggers, I don’t think that is viable. They totally depend on the charge. You need screens in my experience. Before I was relying on Reavers because Blood Warriors were not efficient, but now... I am considering.

Do you want to charge an object held by 10 Blood Warriors with 5 Wrathmonger behind and a Secrator buffing them? It will eliminate half your unit whatever you throw at them. If not the whole.

[Surtur]

7 minutes ago, Bjornas said:

Speaking as one inexperienced with playing as any other AoS faction, what exactly makes them weak?

Their expected damage output per point is very low compared to many other Battleline options. Especially outside BoK. Defensively, there are also better options. And they completely fall apart against shooting. However, as I said above, I think you can make them work, with their no respite rule, the new Wrathmongers and the Goretide bonuses. 

[Rivener]

20 minutes ago, Bjornas said:

Speaking as one inexperienced with playing as any other AoS faction, what exactly makes them weak?

I’ve got some math I’ve done on the subject, but it’s not in front of me at the moment. In terms of sweeping statements though, blood warriors do a small number of wounds per point spent on them. For example, a BW 30-man unit costs 520. They do about 12 wounds, and dividing that out shows their wounds caused per point, in this case 43 points per wound. To put that into perspective, a Khorgorath is 18.4 points per wound caused, and that’s with his new nerfed price.

Calculating in buffs is helpful, but that tide raises all boats. It’s hard to calculate how saves allow them to fight again, and how Gorefists and fight-on-death come into play. With those caveats in play, blood warriors simply don’t measure up to virtually anyone else. 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Rivener

[Reuben Parker]

29 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

Kind of an unfair comparison though if you think about it though. BoK enjoyed being one of the OG-allegiances for a good amount of time.

Beasts of Chaos was the laughing stock of chaos, probably no one would have predicted it would have ever happened.

FEC relied on the gimmicky Majestic Horror General trait before their book gave them more variance.

Skaven was a mess of 6 factions and basically was a "themed" Grand Allegiance assuming you wanted anything other than Pestilens or Skryre.

Gloomspite Gitz also was also a themed GA before their book update.

 

Now I'm not saying khorne deserved to be nerfed or anything, but I think there is a logical explanation why the previous battletomes appear as big jumps compared to khorne's "reshuffle". I imagine Tzeentch or Nurgle going through similar "reshuffles" assuming they'll also get updated soon-ish.

Also it does suck Bloodwarriors still have their weapon limitation because they designed the box with ONE SPECIAL WEAPON.

The problem with the new book is although they have given Khorne additional power in some areas and made some warscrolls better (my spear exalted is now actually pretty good along with being the coolest model). They basically squashed everything that was previously good. 

Plus hit stacking Death Stars (Khorne main win button)

Rage thirster, wrath, stoker  combo this was an important out to have vs ranged armies  

even skullgrinders who were pretty bad had an ability that could swing games if it activated just removed 

wrathmongers were our best defence against scary melee stars / monsters now have lost the self hit ability 

Jugger lord has got worse and gone up in points

judgements look really underwhelming once you read the full rules

 

the only standouts I see in the new book are

skarbrand got a lot better but he’s still 400 for 14 4+ save wounds

new bloodthirster battalion has legs

Juggers who are now silly good but only in 9 strong units (as one casualty at 6 and you lose the d3) which makes them very large footprint and easy to tag  

re rolling priests without paying for gore pilgrims (which is amazing  )

It feels like triple priest and 3 warshrines for more prayers and shrug bubbles maybe the way to go with a big unit of juggers and just become a grind and mortal wound army (but doesn’t feel that Khorney to me)

 

however as Khorne lost all its “cheese” the power level for sure has dropped I would say most likely below ironjawz and Deepkin (if they weren’t already) in terms of ranking silly damage output melee armies  

 

[Bjornas]

5 minutes ago, Rivener said:

I’ve got some math I’ve done on the subject, but it’s not in front of me at the moment. In terms of sweeping statements though, blood warriors do a small number of wounds per point spent on them. For example, a BW 30-man unit costs 520. They do about 12 wounds, and dividing that out shows their wounds caused per point, in this case 43 points per wound.

Calculating in buffs is helpful, but that tide raises all boats. It’s hard to calculate how saves allow them to fight again, and how Gorefists and fight-on-death come into play. With those caveats in play, blood warriors simply don’t measure up to virtually anyone else. 

Thanks. As you say I suppose there are other factors weighing in though such as survivability etc. But I can definitely see the need for a points drop.

Sidenote, I've been fielding a unit of Chaos Warriors alongside the Blood Warriors for a long time. Perhaps that's where I'm confused because compared to them, the Blood Warriors are outstanding!

[phizzco]

can you bring more than one skull altar ??