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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion

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So had my last games of 1.0 on Saturday for a 2k team tournament. No restrictions on grand alliance. Played with Khorne. His list was Herald, Slaughterpriest x2, Secrator, 30 Bloodletters x2.

Blood & Guts won best overall. We decided from the beginning to just play hyper aggressive. Only 1 game we didn't roll over was the 2 objective mission and need to hold both to win. Glottkin and 30 Plaguebeaers just sat on theirs in the very back. Rounds were only 2hrs so every game was only 3 turns. Took all three turns just to get to his castle. 

Rolled over Sea and Stone, a Dispossed and Idoneth team. They got so focused on Bloodletters my Ogors ran wild through the lines. Did watch my Tyrant get pasted on the charge by the King on Seahorse.

Another major against Skaven shooting and Tzeentch w/ 6 Skyfires and Summoner on Balewind. Couple of poorly placed units on the Skaven side got my Ogors charging up the board very quickly. Might also add with some big charges. My partner ate ****** from the Summoner all game. But once they realized I was going to burn one of their objectives on turn 3, they tried to focus me down. Partner used Blood Tythe points to stop some crucial spells. My Tyrant fought off three Rat Ogors and then died with one Rat Ogor on 1 damn wound. 

Lost my Butcher and Tyrant every game. Never pushed my Tyrant into the fray until it didn't matter if the Grots needed to be shockproof. Super happy to end 1.0 on a high. Can't wait to dive into 2.0 and get more games in!

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Had a crazy 1k yesterday using an Open War cards generated mission for fun. Obliterated basically the entire enemy army but lost on objectives due to some Direwolves in the back field I couldn't reach.

It was enormously fun though.

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A couple of little buffs for the Fat Lads in the warscroll updates:

-          Tyrant now has a couple of cheeky Pistol attacks.  Pew Pew!

-          Ironblaster range has gone from 6”-22” to a straight 22”.  

With a points drop and removal of that daft range impediment, do they start to become viable? 

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9 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

A couple of little buffs for the Fat Lads in the warscroll updates:

-          Tyrant now has a couple of cheeky Pistol attacks.  Pew Pew!

-          Ironblaster range has gone from 6”-22” to a straight 22”.  

With a points drop and removal of that daft range impediment, do they start to become viable? 

Tyrant always had the pistol shots. Everyone just forgot. I used the hell out of them. Put Rockeye on your target and you were hitting on 3s. Chip damage is always a good thing.

The change on the IronBlaster is great! But even at 120pts it's still ******. We have no way to buff shooting +hit so 4 up is extremely unreliable. Sad because I have four of them. Lol.

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5 hours ago, James S said:

Tyrant always had the pistol shots. Everyone just forgot. I used the hell out of them. Put Rockeye on your target and you were hitting on 3s. Chip damage is always a good thing.

The change on the IronBlaster is great! But even at 120pts it's still ******. We have no way to buff shooting +hit so 4 up is extremely unreliable. Sad because I have four of them. Lol.

You are right, I've just been missing out on that pistol the whole time!  Dayum.

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Evening my fellow Butchers. Was wondering around the other grand alliances and it got me to thinking. How do we as Gutbuster Ogors fight competitive armies. Ideas, thoughts, strategies? Looking at the tournament scene and what will be in our faces now.

So first place I wondered into was the DoK thread. I have no experience fighting them outside of one time and it was against Temple Nest that slaughtered me. My list was ******, but they did cut right through my Ogors.

Seeing a lot of Witch lists with Morathi and Cauldron. I can see tarpitting Morathi with Grots. She hits hard but will take a few turns to eat through 60 of them. Witches don't worry me much if I can get the charge with 12 Ogor with dual weapons. But this also most likely means screening with Grots and they will chew up my tarpit in one combat phase. Thoughts?

How would you rank what needs to die against a DoK army? 

As always, love to hear from y'all!

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@James S yeah I think DOK are a really hard matchup!  I played a few solid armies with my Gutbusters at a GT in Melbourne recently (Murderhost, Vanguard Wing, DOT, DOK) and it was definitely DOK that really shredded me.

The big thing for me was the Mind Razor spell.  It's a shame Bellowers don't stack!  They went right through my Ogors with double damage.

So in my limited experience, Bravery modifiers are key in this matchup (or buffed unbinding, which is harder to come by).  Inspiring Terrain for your guys, and the Bellower plus Endless Spells to debuff their Bravery, are massive here.

I have found Morathi OK to deal with - tbh I feel she is overcosted (makes up for those naughty Hags!).  Tarpit and ignore imo.

So probably my main take away would be to use the Endless Spells that debuff their bravery to counteract Mind Razor.

And on a similar theme, if I won the roll off, the first thing I'm looking for is Sinister and Inspiring terrain.

Edited by PlasticCraic
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Those are some great insights, @PlasticCraic! That Mindrazor spell was what did me in as well. So that needs to be a priority to stop if we can. Morathi has +1 to cast I believe though, so that might be difficult. Also she can technically cast it out of our unbind range. But if she is sitting back, then that's one big monster that we aren't worrying about for the time being.

The hags are the ones that give battleshock immunity correct? If so those are priorities as well. But our toolbox is very limited to deal with them outside of combat.

Would love to here more about your tournament experiences with your Gutbusters. Last year I did awful but I'm hoping to turn that around this year. 

Edited by James S

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11 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

And on a similar theme, if I won the roll off, the first thing I'm looking for is Sinister and Inspiring terrain.

These are definitely the things I'm talking about! I hadn't even given a thought to how important some of these decisions can be!

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22 minutes ago, James S said:

Those are some great insights, @PlasticCraic! That Mindrazor spell was what did me in as well. So that needs to be a priority to stop if we can. Morathi has +1 to cast I believe though, so that might be difficult. Also she can technically cast it out of our unbind range. But if she is sitting back, then that's one big monster that we aren't worrying about for the time being.

The hags are the ones that give battleshock immunity correct? If so those are priorities as well. But our toolbox is very limited to deal with them outside of combat.

Would love to here more about your tournament experiences with your Gutbusters. Last year I did awful but I'm hoping to turn that around this year. 

Happy to help mate!  Yeah that's the Hags, they are very annoying!  Apart from the (terrible) cannons, you're really relying on magic - Endless Spells might help a little.

Another thing we can leverage is our melee range (a very underrated stat in the game imo).  The Witch Aelves are 1" so you can bunker up and hit over the top with things like Ironguts (2" range), the Tyrant (3" range with the Gutgouger) and allied Gargants (2" or 3" on most attacks).  Let them really, really kill 10 Grots and hit back hard!  It's dependent on them charging you...but it's Witch Aelves, they're gonna charge you!

It's the only time I've taken them to an event and I did enjoy it - I was "lucky" enough to face some of the top players in Australia with far stronger armies, but even in that context you start getting more manageable games once you've lost a couple.  Ended up 2-3 (wins against Tzeentch and Slaanesh, losses against Vanguard Wing, Murderhost and Hagg Nar).  Vanguard Wing was the best game, lost an absolute nail biter!  The Chaos games were both pretty manageable, they just didn't have the output or durability to run with us.  I think we could be a really solid army even with just the GH Allegiance Abilities treatment - it's all the free stuff and bonuses that the likes of DOK and even Khorne have that makes it feel like you're playing a completely different game.

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I run six Leadbelchers behind my Grot screen. If the Witches charge, that usually means the Hag behind them is left in the open. Might get lucky. But I know one of their houses gives blanket -1 hit (maybe shooting?) so that will most likely cause issues. Can try to just spell damage then down but we have no tools for it outside of Maw unless somehow tournaments allow the Realm spells. Then it might be a different story.

Always taking advantage of weapon range is a big deal. My Tyrant uses the Greatweapon so it's only 2" but it's very easy to sit between screens of a couple inches and get the pile in. 

Ive honestly not put much stock in the Endless Spells. I do use Shackles in my list but that's because it casts on a 5 and has quite a few uses. I just feel like in our new meta of unbinding, our Butchers will suffer. 

You played some top stuff my man! I would be proud. I also agree that depending on the army, I don't feel like we play the same game. I won't let that deter me though. I love our army and really think with some solid decision making we can hang tough with some of the hard stuff.

Now Nurgle, that is a completely different story. LOL.

 

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Scary Tyrant Build..... Tyrant with gutgouger with might is right, ghyran artefact for +1 to hit and +1 to wound and rolling on the right name or a 6 on the name chart = every 3 to wound is 6 dmg...possible 18 dmg going through = profit. Slap a gravetide down in front as you slog up the board for a better save.. Alternative choice is the above but the +2 damage artefact from ghur..every 4 to wound would be 8 dmg..correction...the 2 dmg is added before the ability is applied so it would be every 4 to wound is 10 damage...jesus..maybe get emerald swarm in there to keep him alive..since you picekd ghyran if you end up playing in ghyran it would heal d6 a turn..use the butcher also to keep him alive...could make a list that revolves around keeping the tyrant alive just possibly doing 30 dmg a combat phase (with perfect and lucky rolls)

Edited by TrippG11
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3 hours ago, James S said:

I run six Leadbelchers behind my Grot screen. If the Witches charge, that usually means the Hag behind them is left in the open. Might get lucky. But I know one of their houses gives blanket -1 hit (maybe shooting?) so that will most likely cause issues. Can try to just spell damage then down but we have no tools for it outside of Maw unless somehow tournaments allow the Realm spells. Then it might be a different story.

Always taking advantage of weapon range is a big deal. My Tyrant uses the Greatweapon so it's only 2" but it's very easy to sit between screens of a couple inches and get the pile in. 

Ive honestly not put much stock in the Endless Spells. I do use Shackles in my list but that's because it casts on a 5 and has quite a few uses. I just feel like in our new meta of unbinding, our Butchers will suffer. 

You played some top stuff my man! I would be proud. I also agree that depending on the army, I don't feel like we play the same game. I won't let that deter me though. I love our army and really think with some solid decision making we can hang tough with some of the hard stuff.

Now Nurgle, that is a completely different story. LOL.

 

Thanks James, yeah I was quite happy overall, and it was a fully licensed venue so I did enjoy a few Battle Brews along the way!

Yep there are two Temples that seem to be quite popular, Khailebron is the -1 to hit in shooting and Hagg Nar is the 5++ save.  Both very strong!

One Endless Spell I'm looking forward to trying is Geminids.  The reason being the deploy range is a very generous 18" which gets straight into the backfield.  And then you are doing 2 D3 mortals AND 2 major debuffs.  40 points seems quite the bargain!

And agreed on Nurgle, the best I can offer is to wish you good luck!

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Well I'm glad we were able to discuss DoK at some length and get an idea of what it will take for us to fight them. I forgot about the 5++ Temple. That plus some battleshock immunity can stop us in our tracks. That one uses the Cauldron/Shrine though right? 

11 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

 

Thanks James, yeah I was quite happy overall, and it was a fully licensed venue so I did enjoy a few Battle Brews along the way!

Yep there are two Temples that seem to be quite popular, Khailebron is the -1 to hit in shooting and Hagg Nar is the 5++ save.  Both very strong!

One Endless Spell I'm looking forward to trying is Geminids.  The reason being the deploy range is a very generous 18" which gets straight into the backfield.  And then you are doing 2 D3 mortals AND 2 major debuffs.  40 points seems quite the bargain!

And agreed on Nurgle, the best I can offer is to wish you good luck!

Will definitely look into the Gemenids. I know their only drawback is they have to move over a unit to get all the debuffs/damage off. I'll also be looking at the Quicksilver Swords myself. 24in range is no joke and use it to pressure enemy heros. Downside is that it's extremely swingy. But 20pts is 20pts. Let know how your play testing goes!

My main competitive gaming friend plays Nurgle so I'm getting a lot of practice. Lol. Still haven't found a way to handle the triple GUO list. Or just about any list for that matter. Too much free MW spam from them.

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11 hours ago, TrippG11 said:

Scary Tyrant Build..... Tyrant with gutgouger with might is right, ghyran artefact for +1 to hit and +1 to wound and rolling on the right name or a 6 on the name chart = every 3 to wound is 6 dmg...possible 18 dmg going through = profit. Slap a gravetide down in front as you slog up the board for a better save.. Alternative choice is the above but the +2 damage artefact from ghur..every 4 to wound would be 8 dmg..correction...the 2 dmg is added before the ability is applied so it would be every 4 to wound is 10 damage...jesus..maybe get emerald swarm in there to keep him alive..since you picekd ghyran if you end up playing in ghyran it would heal d6 a turn..use the butcher also to keep him alive...could make a list that revolves around keeping the tyrant alive just possibly doing 30 dmg a combat phase (with perfect and lucky rolls)

Sounds like fun for some sweet Narrative play. Tyrant running around just smashing face.

Competitively, if the build doesn't have Ravager in it, then it's a no go for me. We need as close to reliable free movement as we can. Also, I need my Tyrant to stay alive which means he's not digging in until absolutely needed. Damn them and their whacky command ability. 

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@TrippG11, took a modified version of then Tyrant you proposed. Ravager and Ghyrestrike. Rolled a 1 for my Big Name. Lol. Anyhow, fulfilled the role I needed of getting the 3+ Destruction movement and the ability to pull off some great damage with lucky rolls. With the set you you are on a 5+ always for double damage so I think it's worth it.  Obviously he can't just run into combat as he dies terribly quick without the 3+ save big name. Keeping Grots immune is priority one.

Had a game today. Maggotkin with Glottkin w/ Blades, GUO w/ Witherstave, 40 plague rats, 40 Marauders, 30 Plague Bearers, Spume/5 Blight Kings, and 5 Censor Bearers. Used my WiP list from above. Mission was new with objectives in the corners 1pt for yours, 3 for theirs.

I finished deploying first and took turn 1. Moved up my table wide Grot wall. With 18in deployment your armies are on top of each other turn 1. Just a heads up. I charged his line on top of 1. This was a big mistake. I should have let him come to me and spread his army out. I had set my two units of Ogors up for the charge and now they were out of position. Took a couple combat phases for him to eat through everything. On the bottom of 1, I pulled a couple Grots out of my line which allowed Spume to tie up one of my Ogor units. Another mistake. 

Turn 2 I won the roll and chose to go. Cauldrons did well and got the Bulls in combat with Spume to a 2+ hit. Finally get off Shackles being an irritant for my opponents rats. Other Ogor unit smashes into the damaged Marauder line. Get the Plague Bearers in as well with my charge. Another mistake. I thought I was doing right by holding them in place but splitting my attacks killed any effectiveness of the unit. So now both my units are held up. With just a few Grots left, I missle my Tyrant into the Blightkings on his back right objective. They were staying behind while Spume was ruining my plans. Tried to Maw Spume as well. Failed casting with a +1 from terrain. Tyrant kills two Kings, wounds another. Weight of dice take down Spume. Other Ogors kill hardly anything with no buffs and the Stave forcing rerolls. It was bad. In the end my Ogor line was stretched across two combats and one side was being held by one Marauder I couldn't kill.

On his turn two, he spells and muddled what I had left of the Grot screen. Even with half movement, the rats get a big run roll and charge into my Butcher and Ogors that were held by Spume. Last couple Censor Bearers charge into my Tyrant and wipe him from the board. Glottkin charges into my now exposed left center Butcher and Leadbelchers. This was terrible and where I knew the game was sealed. This round of combat saw me lose two Butchers and my Tyrant. Ogors and Belchers still hanging around but tied up doing nothing.

Roll for turn three priority and my opponent gets it. With him getting the double I concede. 

Tough match made even worse with bad decision after bad decision. I need to learn to play more slowly and defensively. The army lasts. I just need to play it as such.

Using the battleshock immune 60 Grot wall is going to be the key to me picking and choosing my fights on my terms. Always open to advice.

i feel like just starting playing a new army. That's how wrapped up my head feels right now.

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13 minutes ago, James S said:

Using the battleshock immune 60 Grot wall is going to be the key to me picking and choosing my fights on my terms. Always open to advice.

i feel like just starting playing a new army. That's how wrapped up my head feels right now.

I thjnk this is a big factor, I have not used the Grot wall much (too much effort splitting all those 8" range attacks!) but when I have, I have got greedy and charged it, wanting to get value out of the 180 attacks while I still have the numbers.

I think you are right in saying that patience is the key, use them as a way of dictating terms rather than as an output unit.  They could be a great tool used in that way.

Re: your second point, my current thinking is that Gutbusters are just going to get worse and worse until they get dropped into the Compendium.  I am playing them because I love them, they look cool on the table and they are a challenge.  But I have given up on hoping for rules support for them.  If you've really had enough I wouldn't blame you for moving on!

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1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

Re: your second point, my current thinking is that Gutbusters are just going to get worse and worse until they get dropped into the Compendium.  I am playing them because I love them, they look cool on the table and they are a challenge.  But I have given up on hoping for rules support for them.  If you've really had enough I wouldn't blame you for moving on!

The way I said that came out all wrong. I meant playing the army now with my list feels like I'm playing a new army. I would never give up on my Ogors! I love the challenge! It sure does get daunting though when you are playing one these new books though. Lol.

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Hey all. I didn't see anyone mention it, but they FAQ'd a lot of the recommended base sizes from the core rulebook. Most rank and file Ogors are back on 40mm bases. Cheers!

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35 minutes ago, PensivePanther said:

Hey all. I didn't see anyone mention it, but they FAQ'd a lot of the recommended base sizes from the core rulebook. Most rank and file Ogors are back on 40mm bases. Cheers!

Yep. We got super lucky that they made the fix so fast. Granted there were a ton of errors throughout, but it worked out well for us.

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There are some irregularities with the new sizes. Yhetees, gorgers and maneaters are 50mm. While butchers are on 40mm

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3 hours ago, Nogle said:

There are some irregularities with the new sizes. Yhetees, gorgers and maneaters are 50mm. While butchers are on 40mm

Maneater models are big so they are fine on 50mm. And the only Butcher you should be using is on a 105mm oval now. ?

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Who else is thinking we may be in line for a battletome before too much longer ... I know nothing but the stars look to be aligning (or at least I want to convince myself of it at least)

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I actually got to kill Nagash with my tyrant decked out as you suggested. I had already put a few wounds on him with my stonehorn, but the tyrant got 15 wounds through armor (good rolls) and finished him off 

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1 hour ago, jeffleong13 said:

Who else is thinking we may be in line for a battletome before too much longer ... I know nothing but the stars look to be aligning (or at least I want to convince myself of it at least)

One can only hope!

58 minutes ago, jeffleong13 said:

I actually got to kill Nagash with my tyrant decked out as you suggested. I had already put a few wounds on him with my stonehorn, but the tyrant got 15 wounds through armor (good rolls) and finished him off 

Awesome! I'm hoping Nagash is easier to take down now with the mystic shield nerf. 

Im so used to the big dogs being so hard to kill that I would avoid them. Now I'm thinking it might be in our best interest to go after them. Of course a good player will keep them protected and make it hard for us. Lol.

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