Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion

Recommended Posts

36 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Gameplay wise (not modelling as that’s fairly obvious) would someone explain why 50s are worse than 40s. 2” range still allows you to attack over the front rank (for Ironguts).   The greater board coverage is surely useful especially with such a low mode count? 

I assume because they can be hit by more enemies in CC bud but I’m not certain 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Gameplay wise (not modelling as that’s fairly obvious) would someone explain why 50s are worse than 40s. 2” range still allows you to attack over the front rank (for Ironguts).   The greater board coverage is surely useful especially with such a low mode count? 

Good question Ollie and to be fair, you make a good counter point. Having a greater board coverage is undoubtedly useful when it comes to a small model count army in an objective based game.

However, at the business end, Gutbusters are a combat army, so anything that has a negative impact on the way they perform there is likely to hurt them.
A few quick things to consider;

  • Whilst Ironguts can still attack through a 50mm base, it does mean everything has to be completely flush. This means you can't stagger your bases to push even more attacks through (perhaps hard to explain without pics).
  • Similar to the above, with 40mm bases it is possible for even Ogors to gain a lot more attacks by staggering their models into a kind of zig-zag wavy formation...again, I'm not explaining this well without pics haha!! With 50mm bases, you are forced to go tight and wide if you want to maximise attacks.
  • The enemy is going to be able to get more attacks back on you. Not just because the individual bases are larger, but because you'll have to commit more to the front line.
  • The potential for people to stop pile-in's by tagging the sides of units is greater. With 50mm's, you're still likely to bring an additional model to the side but beyond that it may be tricky. Not a huge deal, but every little counts.

There's definitely an argument to be had for bigger sizes being better in some situations, but overall I think Ogors and Ironguts in particular are more efficient on 40mm bases. 

Chris

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cheers @Chris Tomlin I see what you mean about staggering the models. I wonder if this will be mitigated some by the new piling in rules?  Could the tagging you mention be used to your own advantage to direct enemy pile ins as well?  

I can see the issues now.  I can’t help feeling that there might be a net benefit here though and it might be worthwhile trying a few thing out.  I’ve got some Troggoths on 50s and they’re pretty handy at tying stuff down. Though it’s fairly obvious I’m not the most competitively minded.  It’s a bit difficult though because I’m fairly sure, like me, everyone’s Ogor units are on 40s and rebasing just to check it out is not something I’d relish. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, eekamouse said:

I sent an email to

aosfaq@gwplc.com

asking them to fix it.

Yeah I wouldn't usually do this but I emailed them as well, I started my gutbusters with AoS and always followed the images in GA destruction when it came to basing, the idea of having to rebase most of my army when I've been following GWs own images since AoS released is crazy to me.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

It’s a bit difficult though because I’m fairly sure, like me, everyone’s Ogor units are on 40s and rebasing just to check it out is not something I’d relish. 

Tbh, I think this trumps any in-game issues that may arise as a result of the change.

And yeh, good points re pile ins in AoS 2.

31 minutes ago, Moonlightwolf said:

Yeah I wouldn't usually do this but I emailed them as well, I started my gutbusters with AoS and always followed the images in GA destruction when it came to basing, the idea of having to rebase most of my army when I've been following GWs own images since AoS released is crazy to me.

Yeh this is what I've done throughout, it would irk me as well if I'm honest (glad I've sold my Gutbusters!!)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If anyone else want to mention it in their emails, 50mm base has 56% more area than 40mm base, for the same Ogor to stand in.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Happy to see the unanimous response to 50mm just being too big for battleline ogres :D

FWIW I think a number of these base guidelines were lifted from preexisting community basing docs - I've been looking for ogre re-base guidelines of late and found a set that's basically identical to what GW put out, including gross 50mm troopers. Ultimately the only base size I really need is Butcher with Cauldron, and 105x70 is what I expected (and should be able to slot a 50mm Butcher in and out fairly well).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Gameplay wise (not modelling as that’s fairly obvious) would someone explain why 50s are worse than 40s. 2” range still allows you to attack over the front rank (for Ironguts).   The greater board coverage is surely useful especially with such a low mode count? 

The gameplay nerf applies to standard Ogors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, amysrevenge said:

If anyone else want to mention it in their emails, 50mm base has 56% more area than 40mm base, for the same Ogor to stand in.

Careful you sound like you’re selling real estate ?

I did put some Troggoths next to for Ironguts and the bases did look huge in comparison. Though I do remember thinking the same when a lot of stuff moved from 25 to 32.   I think 50s may look  peculiar as the Ogre units all with their feet close togeather rather than a wind stance so there will quite a large ring of empty space around the model. It’s not like when the models feet all overhung 25mm bases 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Cheers @Chris Tomlin I see what you mean about staggering the models. I wonder if this will be mitigated some by the new piling in rules?  Could the tagging you mention be used to your own advantage to direct enemy pile ins as well?  

It seems to me that the new piling in rules is going to enable/force both sides to engage a whole lot more of the models in units as combat continues.  I don't care for the 40mm Ogors simply due to the visuals for the models, but I am not sure it is a giant nerf until we thoroughly wrap our heads around the tweaks to the new edition.

Pure speculation on my part, but I wonder if some of these base increases that seem out of left field (Ogors, Fanatics, etc) are due to stuff that the design studio and modelers are currently working on?  It could very well be the case that they have some WIP (or completed) designs for new Ogor models and they are planning to bump the scale of them up slightly.  In the past the main driving reason for base size increases has been model size creep.  Maybe when GW compiled the official base size chart they figured they would hit us with some of those changes now and let people adapt before new models come out later on? 

Pure speculation - discuss....

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

It seems to me that the new piling in rules is going to enable/force both sides to engage a whole lot more of the models in units as combat continues.  I don't care for the 40mm Ogors simply due to the visuals for the models, but I am not sure it is a giant nerf until we thoroughly wrap our heads around the tweaks to the new edition.

Pure speculation on my part, but I wonder if some of these base increases that seem out of left field (Ogors, Fanatics, etc) are due to stuff that the design studio and modelers are currently working on?  It could very well be the case that they have some WIP (or completed) designs for new Ogor models and they are planning to bump the scale of them up slightly.  In the past the main driving reason for base size increases has been model size creep.  Maybe when GW compiled the official base size chart they figured they would hit us with some of those changes now and let people adapt before new models come out later on? 

Pure speculation - discuss....

I’m not sure I’ve much to discuss seems entirely plausible and very much in line with what they did with Space Marines when moving them to 32mm. 

There might be a element of wanting some consistency with the other 4 wound models in the Destruction GA and Troggoths/Maneaters won’t fit on 40s but that might be stretching a bit. 

I’d like your reasoning to be true but we’ve not had much in the way of rumour regarding Ogors of any stripe 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I currently play Stormcasts as I learn the game, but Ogors are what I really want to play. I will say that having an ogor on the same base as a stormcast (40mm) makes the ogor seem much less epic. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

I’d like your reasoning to be true but we’ve not had much in the way of rumour regarding Ogors of any stripe 

It's just speculation.  But bear in mind that GW has explicitly said that the way they currently work is that the rules team goes to work once the Design team hands them a bunch of models.  We also know that sometimes they sit on completed designs for a while.  And we also know that their physical production capacity is limited and decides where things fall in terms of release windows.  So I would expect that the Design team would have some things sitting in limbo waiting for something.

Here is a hypothetical example to think of.  Malign Portents added a character to each grand alliance and very much seems like those releases were matched to upcoming release books (Stormcast, Nighthaunt, Moonclan/Grots, Slaves to Darkness).  It could very well be the case that they designed 2-3 characters for each Grand Alliance and then chose which ones to fit into Malign Portents.  Or, maybe they have a new campaign setting and they are making another character release wave to go with it.  It would not surprise me if they used that opportunity to brainstorm what Ogors in Age of Sigmar would be (like they did with Moonclan and the Fungus shaman).  So it could be something as small as a single model to prototype out a new visual.  I'm just shooting from the hip with ideas so feel free to ignore everything that I have said.

In regards to consistency they did just consolidate all Trolls onto 50mm bases.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Got in one last original AoS game with the ol' Buttgusters tonight against Daughters of Khaine.

Wow, Morathi is a beast!  All I could think of to do was feed her butchers and ironblasters one at a time and hope my other dudes could collect enough points. Just barely managed a 20-18 scenario win.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GW already edited the basing guide. Ogors, Guts, Leadbelchers back to 40mm. Today is a good day.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, James S said:

GW already edited the basing guide. Ogors, Guts, Leadbelchers back to 40mm. Today is a good day.

Where are you seeing this? I just checked and they are still 50.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, eekamouse said:

Where are you seeing this? I just checked and they are still 50.

Same

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is up for me now.  Ogors back to 40mm.  Same for Sourbreath and Rockbiter Trolls.  Fanatics back to 25mm as well.

Looks like it was indeed a goof up by the intern.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

bravo GW, bravo. Im guessing the intern that messed up the base sizes was the same one to accidentally put the new unreleased Genestealer Cult models in the display cabinet lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Had another game tonight with my WiP tournament list. Played against a Neferata lead battalion, Queens something. Nef, vamp on dragon, vamp on steed, vamp throne, 2 morghasts, 3 units of 10 dogs. Two drop list. 

Played the mission from new book that is 4 objectives, need to hold all four to win after turn 3. He deploys firsts, and chooses to go first.

Death player running all 4 heros together on left side of table, Morgasts on right side. I deploy my 60 Grots in a big line on the right side all the way to mid table. They are three rows deep. Leadbelchers behind them all mid table. Overpower my left side with both units of 12 Ogors facing down the Death heros. Tyrant behind Grots and near Ogors. All three Butchers behind the two Ogor units. I am deployed in the 12" line to shut down two gravesites right near my objectives.

Opponent takes first turn. Summons a unit of dogs in the back line, casts spells, including pinions. The Vamp Lord on Dragon and Vampire throne are in my face top of one. They move crazy fast. Lol. Neferata is about 7" behind the throne giving her debuff. Morghast move up but do nothing on the right side.

VLoZD proceeds to chew up 6 Ogors. Bulls attack Throne, take it down to 8 wounds, it fights back killing an Ogor. Hitting on 5s is kicking my ass. Ogors punch the Vamp Lord back and get him down to 10 wounds. Have to burn my CP on battleshock for Ogors fighting VLoZD. Pass other battleshock test.

Bottom of 1. Cauldrons fire up. First gives +1 hit to Ogors fighting Throne. Second gets MW AoE. Only the throne take wounds. Down to 6. Third gets the same but out of position. Get no Destruction movement because everything is so close to me. Maw fails to cast, get a D3 Arane Blast on the Throne, roll a one. Mystic Shield my 3+ save Tyrant. Proceed to move the Grots up and clear a lane for my Tyrant and Belchers to slide over. 6d3 shots go into the Throne and some hot dice saw it removed. 

Charge time. Ogors go all in and charge Neferata. 9 make it into base contact. Roll an 11 on the charge for my Tyrant, goes across and gets in with th VLoZD. Hoped I could insta-gib the Vampire on the charge. Only do 3 damage. Neferata kills another Ogor. Swing with the last 6 Ogors in combat with the Vamp Lord. Get 6 damage through, leaving him on 1 wound. ? He hits back and splits attacks. Bounces off the Tyrant, kills two more Ogors. Lastly my Ogors activate on Neferata. 37 attacks at 4s to hit rerolling 1s and 3s rerolling wounds. 21 wounds push through. Opponent fails 14. Then rolls 28 6+ minion saves and fails enough for Neferata to retire from the field. Opponent concedes. 

Brutal match. I thought I was done in after the multi-charge top of 1. Hung in there and had some dice go my way. Never had a chance to test out the Shackles Endless Spell though.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, James S said:

Had another game tonight with my WiP tournament list. Played against a Neferata lead battalion, Queens something. Nef, vamp on dragon, vamp on steed, vamp throne, 2 morghasts, 3 units of 10 dogs. Two drop list. 

Played the mission from new book that is 4 objectives, need to hold all four to win after turn 3. He deploys firsts, and chooses to go first.

Death player running all 4 heros together on left side of table, Morgasts on right side. I deploy my 60 Grots in a big line on the right side all the way to mid table. They are three rows deep. Leadbelchers behind them all mid table. Overpower my left side with both units of 12 Ogors facing down the Death heros. Tyrant behind Grots and near Ogors. All three Butchers behind the two Ogor units. I am deployed in the 12" line to shut down two gravesites right near my objectives.

Opponent takes first turn. Summons a unit of dogs in the back line, casts spells, including pinions. The Vamp Lord on Dragon and Vampire throne are in my face top of one. They move crazy fast. Lol. Neferata is about 7" behind the throne giving her debuff. Morghast move up but do nothing on the right side.

VLoZD proceeds to chew up 6 Ogors. Bulls attack Throne, take it down to 8 wounds, it fights back killing an Ogor. Hitting on 5s is kicking my ass. Ogors punch the Vamp Lord back and get him down to 10 wounds. Have to burn my CP on battleshock for Ogors fighting VLoZD. Pass other battleshock test.

Bottom of 1. Cauldrons fire up. First gives +1 hit to Ogors fighting Throne. Second gets MW AoE. Only the throne take wounds. Down to 6. Third gets the same but out of position. Get no Destruction movement because everything is so close to me. Maw fails to cast, get a D3 Arane Blast on the Throne, roll a one. Mystic Shield my 3+ save Tyrant. Proceed to move the Grots up and clear a lane for my Tyrant and Belchers to slide over. 6d3 shots go into the Throne and some hot dice saw it removed. 

Charge time. Ogors go all in and charge Neferata. 9 make it into base contact. Roll an 11 on the charge for my Tyrant, goes across and gets in with th VLoZD. Hoped I could insta-gib the Vampire on the charge. Only do 3 damage. Neferata kills another Ogor. Swing with the last 6 Ogors in combat with the Vamp Lord. Get 6 damage through, leaving him on 1 wound. ? He hits back and splits attacks. Bounces off the Tyrant, kills two more Ogors. Lastly my Ogors activate on Neferata. 37 attacks at 4s to hit rerolling 1s and 3s rerolling wounds. 21 wounds push through. Opponent fails 14. Then rolls 28 6+ minion saves and fails enough for Neferata to retire from the field. Opponent concedes. 

Brutal match. I thought I was done in after the multi-charge top of 1. Hung in there and had some dice go my way. Never had a chance to test out the Shackles Endless Spell though.

 

What was your full list for this battle?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm so bummed now. I rebased my ogors from 40-50 when beastclaw came out because that's what hunters and yhetees came on. Now I need to rebase the army for a third time. I guessed right, but too many people contacted GW.  50 ogors to rebase. I think I might have just lost all drive I had for the new edition.

Edited by Nogle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...