AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion

[amysrevenge]

Just now, Baron Wastelands said:

Well I have my maneaters on 40mm as well, so there!

So do I, but I will go forward there.  Just not going back.  LOL

[Melcavuk]

As part of a recent thing (not to be dwelt on) I produced a number of Gutbuster abilities, relics, spells as part of their battle traits. Entirely fan made ofcourse but it helps bring them in line with some of the more recent Battletome'd factions, would love to know how people feel about them.

[Baron Wastelands]

Some great work there. I particularly like how you have kept it mostly thematic. Also really like the idea of the bloody banquet, with the Gutbusters starting with an ability based on being ravenous and progressing, though perhaps limit this to just the three stages. The other battle traits seem reasonably balanced, and while the auto mortal wound is strong, it doesn’t appear op and is still in keeping with the faction.

I also think you have some great abilities in there. My only real points to consider are:

a] you seem to be covering most of the bases, which doesn’t leave any weaknesses. I know SCE do this, but ogors have traditionally been more of a strengths and weaknesses army. While I love the idea of ‘butcher recipes’, it doesn’t quite sit well that many of these can make my butcher a stronger or more reliable spell caster, for instance. Butcher buffs are great, their spells should be unreliable.

B] secondly, and relatedly, I think you could do with a few ways to buff our strengths (perhaps instead of magic buffs). Ogor tyrants will be loathe to give up +1 to wound when it combos so well with the gutgouger, and most ogor generals would trade a whole unit for a +1 to hit buff, even if just in certain circumstances. We need buffing heroes to create synergy to make melee - already a strength - a terrifying prospect for enemies. 

C] The malevolent meathook is too powerful against certain armies, I think. 

D] the butchers blades spell seems a little too strong as well. Compared with, say, arcane bolt.

E] don’t make ogors unit size in multiples of 4. Too many people already have multiples of 3.

Just my opinion of course, and hopefully helpful suggestions. Which isn’t to take away from what a great job you’ve done - generally balanced, thematic, and simple enough effects. Would like to see some of your efforts eventually reflected in a battletome ?

Edited September 20, 2018 by Baron Wastelands

[kenshin620]

I'm still chewing (hah) through the fan rules but it sounds cool so far.

Though Bloody Banquet sounds a little too refined for Gutbusters, I could easily mistaken that for a Legion of Blood or Flesh Eaters Court kind of rule just from the name.

Just a gut feeling though (hah 2)!

[Melcavuk]

Cheers guys, appreciate the feedback and the time taken to read through. As a quick summary the rules were designed to reflect the key attribute I know gutbusters for which is the endless, ravenous and all consuming Maw and move that into an Age of Sigmar focus where it is fed the souls of those who die on the field of battle, in doing so sharing some small portion of power left over from those souls (its a messy eater) with the Ogor below.

7 hours ago, Baron Wastelands said:

Some great work there. I particularly like how you have kept it mostly thematic. Also really like the idea of the bloody banquet, with the Gutbusters starting with an ability based on being ravenous and progressing, though perhaps limit this to just the three stages. The other battle traits seem reasonably balanced, and while the auto mortal wound is strong, it doesn’t appear op and is still in keeping with the faction.

I also think you have some great abilities in there. My only real points to consider are:

a] you seem to be covering most of the bases, which doesn’t leave any weaknesses. I know SCE do this, but ogors have traditionally been more of a strengths and weaknesses army. While I love the idea of ‘butcher recipes’, it doesn’t quite sit well that many of these can make my butcher a stronger or more reliable spell caster, for instance. Butcher buffs are great, their spells should be unreliable.

B] secondly, and relatedly, I think you could do with a few ways to buff our strengths (perhaps instead of magic buffs). Ogor tyrants will be loathe to give up +1 to wound when it combos so well with the gutgouger, and most ogor generals would trade a whole unit for a +1 to hit buff, even if just in certain circumstances. We need buffing heroes to create synergy to make melee - already a strength - a terrifying prospect for enemies. 

C] The malevolent meathook is too powerful against certain armies, I think. 

D] the butchers blades spell seems a little too strong as well. Compared with, say, arcane bolt.

E] don’t make ogors unit size in multiples of 4. Too many people already have multiples of 3.

Just my opinion of course, and hopefully helpful suggestions. Which isn’t to take away from what a great job you’ve done - generally balanced, thematic, and simple enough effects. Would like to see some of your efforts eventually reflected in a battletome ?

Thanks for the detailed response, cracking through I'll try and give my opinions on why I did things:

A) You're right I may have approached this from an out of game decision rather than neccessarily straight from a fluff perspective, I approached the army that only had one mid tier wizard (low spell numbers, not a monster, not a named character who dispells everthing) and made that wizard more effective/reliable statistically on the field rather than more volatile but unreliable. This was more of a tactical balance thing in my own head than directly linked to theme. The strengths of the army is still focused toward hitting like a freight train and tried to encapsulate the momentum of a mountain of flesh and muscle piling down the hills into the enemies whilst avoiding things like boosting saves, extra hit buffs etc instead adding momentum and damage when they made contact

B) Again right, this is something to me that could be accomodated by more hero variety than specific relics etc. This is only because when going through other armies relics I found few that buffed the army but instead buffed only the individual character, the army command trait was designed to help hit more rather than harder (frenzied etc) and I tried to avoid replicating but renaming existing destruction traits as I wanted more flavour than that. Would you suggest to do this through spells or relics?

C) Its great or useless with no inbetween, it relies on: A caster being at the front of the enemy army to be charged (no outflank mechanic), the butcher getting down the field, making the charge, hitting and wounding (but not killing) and then releasing the power to be effective. Essentially its a big gamble taking it that when it does eventually pay off it goes off big.

D) I'm surprised you found this strong, the increased casting value (7 vs 5) and reduced range (12 vs 18) makes it on average worse than the old arcane bolt but arguably better than the new one, but its random mortal wound output means there's a chance even in its ideal situation it could only do a single mortal wound. What casting value would you feel suitably mirrors the effect?

E) Yeah this one is on me, variety in a unit build is something I feel most units should have in terms of a "special" weapon in there somewhere, since you can make ogors out of the Guts kit adding a two handed tenderiser was logical and its always bemused me the guts come in 4s but are fielded in 3s (one of the few gw kits not sold in multiples minimums of AoS unit sizes

6 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

I'm still chewing (hah) through the fan rules but it sounds cool so far.

Though Bloody Banquet sounds a little too refined for Gutbusters, I could easily mistaken that for a Legion of Blood or Flesh Eaters Court kind of rule just from the name.

Just a gut feeling though (hah 2)!

Ah the puns
To be honest that ability went through about a dozen names, I went with Bloody Banquet as it sounded flavoursome (see its possible) but evocative, trying to toe the line between Gutbusters, FEC and Bloodbound with naming was challenging, other contendors for name were:
The Ravenous Maw
The Endless Hungering
Feeding Time

 

Thanks again guys!
 

[Baron Wastelands]

A] Fair enough; it feels like it changes what a butcher is, but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing, just an adjustment! Take your point that you have still left in some weaknesses, like saves and hits. I guess the 4+ to hit has been harder to swallow (look, I did one too ?) than the lack of reliable magic, since the army has always felt like melee combat is their thing. 

B] more heroes, absolutely. I guess I was assuming in the absence of that. Reading through my own post, I think I’m suggesting that butcher’s recipes could be about buffing units (in effect, expanding on the cauldron idea and making butchers without cauldrons comparable) rather than boosting spellcasting. As for the +1 to wound, I’m just asking for a reason not to take ghyrstrike instead!

C] Agreed that a lot of the time it won’t do anything. But taking a wizard out of the game with a wound is going to make your opponent cry in some cases. It shuts down Nagash, for example.

D] It was the one that raised my eyebrows, is all! Again, it may be because we haven’t been a mw army, and you have introduced several ways to do so; and a spell which does d6 to units and d3 to heroes ... will generally do double to quadruple the damage of (the current) arcane bolt. Looked like an autotake to me.

E] like the idea of the tenderiser, yes; still, ogors are sold in 6s. If you want to change the size of guts, let’s talk!

[Melcavuk]

To be honest i was dicey on some of the relic option for the butcher, I wanted to add a degree of reliability without going too... ordered but your feedback makes alot of sense, one of the options that didnt make the cut was the ability to cast an additional spell a turn in return for taking a mortal wound, it was to be depicted as ritual scars dug deep into the flesh that bleed magic when utilised. It added a degree of potency whilst having a drawback but felt it moved the butcher into a two spell caster with no points increase and could have been considered OP.

And yeah expanding options for the butcher definately makes sense, currently butchers with cauldrons seem (to me atleast) an autoinclude over those without. i feel this could be better balanced with warscroll options rather than neccessarily relics (A Butcher carrying a massive bell around to ring to sound the feast for example giving +1 to hit for ogors that charge that turn within range)

Very true, removing once per battle and instead making it "until your next hero phase) on the Meathook might be less... offensive to an opponent and requires that butcher to still be alive. The other option would be to have it contingent on the butchers survival (so kill the butcher and the cursed caster gets their spells back)

With D yeah.... there are better spells, there are worse. With a restricted number of spells I'd hope most a more flavoursome than arcane bolt

[kenshin620]

6 hours ago, Melcavuk said:

To be honest that ability went through about a dozen names, I went with Bloody Banquet as it sounded flavoursome (see its possible) but evocative, trying to toe the line between Gutbusters, FEC and Bloodbound with naming was challenging, other contendors for name were:
The Ravenous Maw
The Endless Hungering
Feeding Time
 

Maybe its because I like old school ogres, but I like Ravenous Maw.

Its both true for hungry ogors, and also is a call back to The Great Maw from oldhammer. Honestly I kind of want the Great Maw to come back in one way or another (though I wonder if its still rumored to be a tyanid hiveship).

 

But I'm just one person, might need to run a poll with a number of ogor players!

 

Speaking of special weapons, I find it very interesting they actually packed bases for the grots that come with the ogors. Maybe incorporate those into some sort of profile? Though the problem is that the stats blocks are obviously different. Could be a "summon" mechanic kind of like how a few models can "summon" a griff hound. Sure its only 3-6 grots most of the time, but could be very useful as a charge or deep strike blocker. Like maybe something like "Packer Grots", you may place a unit of Packer Grots with a number of models equal to the number of ogors in a unit.

[Baron Wastelands]

7 hours ago, Melcavuk said:

Very true, removing once per battle and instead making it "until your next hero phase” on the meathook

Much better ?

[Baron Wastelands]

4 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

Maybe its because I like old school ogres, but I like Ravenous Maw.

Its both true for hungry ogors, and also is a call back to The Great Maw from oldhammer. Honestly I kind of want the Great Maw to come back in one way or another

Kind of? Bring it back immediately! The Maw eats Gorkamorka for breakfast ... (literally)

[Melcavuk]

I like to assume the maw is an aspect of Gorkamorka in the same way that the Firebellies are meant to worship the Suneater as an aspect of Gorkamorka, for me the Maw is the great balancer in the realms, where other gods trade souls as though they were currency the Maw exists only to consume them, to devour them in their entirity so that new life flourishes (food chain, circle of life etc), it isnt some logical, petty politicking god searching for souls, but the cosmic equivalent of an alpha predator eating its way through the metaphysical.

[Baron Wastelands]

I think that is the fluff yes; but I remain unconvinced ?

To expect us to worship an orruk deity in any aspect is to put us on a meat free diet, pull our teeth, and slacken our bellies. ?

Edited September 21, 2018 by Baron Wastelands

[Soolong]

Liking the fan made rules, once its balanced and tweaked i will run it with friends, any chance of some battalions?

[Melcavuk]

Edit log:
- Bloody Banquest is now called The Ravenous Maw
- Oracular totem has been removed and replaced with the following:

 Carnivorous Companion
In the heart of Ghur the parasitic Maw Wyrm tunnels its way through a host, consuming them day by day and seeping the raw magics of the Maw in its excrement. Some butchers endure the pain to ultilise the magics.
In your hero phase you may elect to inflict 1 Mortal Wound on this Butcher, if you do so you may cast an additional spell in that phase. Note this cannot be a spell they have already cast this turn, a Butcher may only utilise their Carniverous Companion once per turn.

Will work on Batallions and looking at Scraplauncher and Ironblaster scrolls later in the week.

[PensivePanther]

Morning fellow Gutbusters. I played three games in the last two weeks. Two 1000pt games. One against Nurgle Mortals and the other against Tzeentch Daemons. No victories this time though. Really starting to feel the pains of that battletome vs non-battletome experience. The last game was a 750pt against Dispossessed. I can happily say I kicked their butt. I even had success with a giant too!  

I felt I executed my movements and plans as well as I could hope in both games! It might be an uphill battle some of the time, but my gutbuster games are usually pretty rewarding. (I tell myself it makes me a better player to play an older army lol).

Tell me about your recent successes!

[James S]

Hey guys! Been too long. Trying to get back into the swing of things! Got a game tonight and a couple more on Sunday. So happy to roll those dice again! 

 

[PensivePanther]

On 10/13/2018 at 12:04 AM, James S said:

Hey guys! Been too long. Trying to get back into the swing of things! Got a game tonight and a couple more on Sunday. So happy to roll those dice again! 

 

I count myself very lucky that in our gaming group I'm both the gutbuster and slaanesh guy, ha! I haven't had to deal with my poor ogors fueling the depravity machine!

James, you got any experience fighting nighthaunt  with ogors? I find nighthaunt to be a bafflingly hard opponent to face. I'm just totally at a loss on how to deal with them.

Regards! 

[James S]

11 hours ago, PensivePanther said:

James, you got any experience fighting nighthaunt  with ogors? I find nighthaunt to be a bafflingly hard opponent to face. I'm just totally at a loss on how to deal with them.

Regards! 

Got my first game in against them today! It was pretty rough to say the least. Need more games but honestly can't let the Reapers get a charge. That's the game. They are so damn good.

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by James S
Photos added

[walheim]

Hey guys! I'm jumping into an escelation turnament at a 1000 points gutbusters, looking to have fun, but not getting slaughtered.

 

Tyrant: not sure how to equip this lad.. I want the guttgouger and I'm going to have bragg the guttsman to proxy for this.

Butcher with cauldron

20 gnoblars to bully and tarpit

6 ogors dual weapons, look ut gnoblar.

3 ironbellys

3 leadbelcher.

Tips and thoughts for my first gutbuster tournament? How would you expand to 1500 and 2000? Thanks!

[Mutter]

Where can I actually find the 'force org' for Gutbusters? It's not in the GHB, right?

[amysrevenge]

There isn't one.  Just an entry in the Destruction Pitched Battle Profiles table.

[Mutter]

Yeah, found it in the big rules. Hmmm, slim pickin's, really ...

[James S]

13 hours ago, walheim said:

Hey guys! I'm jumping into an escelation turnament at a 1000 points gutbusters, looking to have fun, but not getting slaughtered.

 

Tyrant: not sure how to equip this lad.. I want the guttgouger and I'm going to have bragg the guttsman to proxy for this.

Butcher with cauldron

20 gnoblars to bully and tarpit

6 ogors dual weapons, look ut gnoblar.

3 ironbellys

3 leadbelcher.

Tips and thoughts for my first gutbuster tournament? How would you expand to 1500 and 2000? Thanks!

Answered your post in the topic you made. Take pics and let us know how your games go!

[amysrevenge]

Hey guys.  How cheese and crackers is this (caveat - I would never do this, but I am VERY amused that it is in there):

"You can re-roll failed hit rolls for a Tyrant armed with more than one Club, Basher or Slicer."

Note that it doesn't say "re-roll failed hit rolls in the combat phase" or "re-roll failed hit rolls in melee" or any other limiting words. 

So, how about those pistols?  They sometimes produce "failed hit rolls".  LOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Baron Wastelands]

12 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Hey guys.  How cheese and crackers is this (caveat - I would never do this, but I am VERY amused that it is in there):

"You can re-roll failed hit rolls for a Tyrant armed with more than one Club, Basher or Slicer."

Note that it doesn't say "re-roll failed hit rolls in the combat phase" or "re-roll failed hit rolls in melee" or any other limiting words. 

So, how about those pistols?  They sometimes produce "failed hit rolls".  LOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

Hey, that’s RAW for you. ?

I think it must be intentional - after all, if you’re armed with more than one club, basher or slicer (no upper limit, so let’s say 6), then you don’t have any hands left to hold a pistol, so you’d be firing your pistol with your teeth. And everyone knows ogres are more accurate when using their teeth. QED.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Baron Wastelands