AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion

[walheim]

Hi lads! 

 

Had a 1k match against ironjawz and got a solid win.

In the end it looked like i was going to be whiped with only 2 ogors and 1 butcher left. Got a solid 21 mortal wounds with  my maw on a group of brutes, blowing em' out the water and securing my win!

 

Was a really fun game!

[mrgambit]

So I actually gave 

On 11/5/2018 at 10:40 AM, James S said:

Morning all! Been pretty quiet on the Ogor front it seems. Saw a post over on the Gutbuster FB page from a guy making a lot of Leadbelchers for his army. This prompted me to think about how we would go about doing that. I don't much believe in our shooting abilities since we have no way to buff it in any way outside of Damned terrain or the Burning Head Endless Spell. 

But say we wanted to. I got to list building and decided to go all in on the shooting. 60 grots form a wall to protect all the shooting. Haven't kitted out the Tyrant since I'm not sure what his role should be. Maneaters can shoot decently well and are good in combat. Overcosted but good none the less. So here's a list I played with. I also added pics of the averages for the shooting and combat damage of the Leadbelchers. First is with d3 shots using 2 as the average, then their combat, and lastly using d6 shots as they stand still. I chose 21 as it's the median between 18 and 24. I'm not a math whiz. This is all up against a 4+ save.

So let's have a conversation! I go first and say I don't think their 12" range is worth it. 18" if you move.

Edit: Not even sure it's legal. Don't think I can squeeze the second unit of Maneaters with the match play restrictions.

 

 

 

 

I tried my hand at this  a little earlier. I'm not sure how 'faithful' you'd consider the list with the guts. 

Allegiance: Gutbusters

LEADERS

Butcher (140)
Butcher (140)
UNITS
6 x Leadbelchers (280)

6 x Leadbelchers (280)

6 x Leadbelchers (280)

3 x Ironguts (180)

3 x Ironguts (180)
3 x Ironguts (180)
6 x Leadbelchers (280)

ENDLESS SPELLSThe Burning Head (40)

TOTAL: 1980/2000

definitely not the most optimized list, but the units of guts did a fantastic job in  keeping things off the belchers. I managed to get burning head off but didn't get as much value out of the  rerolls as I was hoping.  That being said, I really loved the idea of the ogre gunline and  might have to take another crack at this!

[James S]

On 11/5/2018 at 2:53 PM, Baron Wastelands said:

2x butcher with cauldron

6x6 leadbelchers

soulsnare shackles

  

 This would put out a decent amount of shots, and would take some chewing through, whilst also being a bit handy in combat, and supported by a bit of magic and buffs. But is it too one dimensional to really work?

Never underestimate how paper thin Ogors are. Lol. They need chaff if you are going the big unit route. Now, what happens if you break down every unit into min size? That's a lot of ****** deal with all over that is just shooting and being annoying. Lots of little speed bumps idea.

[James S]

19 hours ago, mrgambit said:

So I actually gave 

I tried my hand at this  a little earlier. I'm not sure how 'faithful' you'd consider the list with the guts. 

Allegiance: Gutbusters

LEADERS

Butcher (140)
Butcher (140)
UNITS
6 x Leadbelchers (280)

6 x Leadbelchers (280)

6 x Leadbelchers (280)

3 x Ironguts (180)

3 x Ironguts (180)
3 x Ironguts (180)
6 x Leadbelchers (280)

ENDLESS SPELLSThe Burning Head (40)

TOTAL: 1980/2000

definitely not the most optimized list, but the units of guts did a fantastic job in  keeping things off the belchers. I managed to get burning head off but didn't get as much value out of the  rerolls as I was hoping.  That being said, I really loved the idea of the ogre gunline and  might have to take another crack at this!

I love min units of Guts. They always do what i need them to. I think Burning Head is a waste. If we had a way to get to 3+ to hit then the rerolls I think would be worth it. It also casts on a 7 iirc and that is no dependable.

i was really toying with the idea of keeping two units of 6 and breaking all the rest down into min size and flood the board with MSU. Also keeps battleshock tests to a minimum. 

[Baron Wastelands]

1 hour ago, James S said:

Never underestimate how paper thin Ogors are. Lol. They need chaff if you are going the big unit route. Now, what happens if you break down every unit into min size? That's a lot of ****** deal with all over that is just shooting and being annoying. Lots of little speed bumps idea.

I can see the sense in MSU leadbelchers, as it won’t affect your shooting potential, but doubles the interference potential. I was going for belchers being their own chaff/interference, so that whatever gets hit, you can still shoot with all the rest. So maybe 12x3?

I don’t have huge amounts of problems with battleshock in units of 6, as something that wrecks enough to make me lose models is going to finish that unit next turn anyway, most of the time. And as I said, ‘belchers are always a bit surprising in combat, if not exactly ironguts. 6 have the potential to do some damage there too, 3 less so. But both ways look potentially interesting to me.

Honestly, I think 2 units of 6 just won’t put out enough shots to really feel like a gun line. Even in optimal circumstances (both units in 12” range, but screened so they aren’t within 3”, and don’t need to move), you’re generating 21 shots on average from each unit. 10.5 will hit, and 7 will wound. So 7 wounds at -1 rend (with the right butcher buff, about 9w). 14 for both units.

Against 4+, that’s just under 5 wounds a unit, and only on your turn, under optimal conditions - just over 9 for both units. On flat average, that is.

Now of course you’re never going to get 36 leadbelchers into optimal, but let’s say you managed half doing d6 shots and the other half doing d3. That’s 21 wounds at -1 rend from the back row, and 12 wounds at -1 rend from the front. Then plus anything you manage to do with the units that have been charged. 

If we give up a minor bit of combat potentially for the ability to speed bump longer, that’s probably worth it to run units of 3. The butcher’s heal is probably similar, though the +1 to hit buff affects less models with MSU, of course.

*edit* re-reading your last post, it occurs to me that you mean 2x6 leadbelchers, then 8x3 leadbelchers? In which case, absolutely. ?

Edited November 8, 2018 by Baron Wastelands

[James S]

@Baron Wastelands, just remember the Butcher's +1 to hit buff only affects combat so you really aren't giving much up. I would rather have the Butchers following a couple units of min Guts with Leadbelcher protection around. Hope that makes sense. 

[Baron Wastelands]

It does ?

My thinking is something like this. 

L  L  L

                       L  L  L

        LLLLLL

              B

You move into range with all, firing. Then take charges with the MSUs. Those that survive can be healed or buffed by the butcher (for their melee attacks), and still then fire, while the back line (which could also be 2x3, staggered a bit) fire with d6 shots each on your next turn.

My question then was, given that, as you point out, the back line could be 2x3 without losing any fire power, is there any merit in having 6 on the front line, because more likely to survive a charge and be healed, or be a better target for the melee buff? I do like the idea of them being MSU speed bumpy though, but then I’m thinking the butcher loses some effectiveness, at least for the cauldron effects.

I can see the usefulness of guts, and they’re certainly better targets for a cauldron in a regular list. I’m just trying to optimise the number of shots fired by not diluting, but I admit the list may then be too one dimensional.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Baron Wastelands

[James S]

@Baron Wastelands, I just don't have much faith in the 12" range of the guns. I think that hurts the theme of the shooty army the most. 6 Leachbelchers with +1 to hit from the Butcher can do some decent damage. But now that is 6 dudes who aren't getting to choose their shooting target if they get tied up. I think the list could be fun and look gorgeous on the table. With no synergies though, it's a major uphill battle for sure.

[James S]

Got a 2k matched play game in against KO tonight. Blood and Glory scenario. Went well, got the W top of turn 3. Here's the link to the battle report and some pics. Critique and discussion always welcome!

 

[Baron Wastelands]

2 hours ago, James S said:

@Baron Wastelands, I just don't have much faith in the 12" range of the guns. I think that hurts the theme of the shooty army the most. 6 Leachbelchers with +1 to hit from the Butcher can do some decent damage. But now that is 6 dudes who aren't getting to choose their shooting target if they get tied up. I think the list could be fun and look gorgeous on the table. With no synergies though, it's a major uphill battle for sure.

Completely true. But that’s an argument against leadbelchers in general, I think, whereas your original question was: what’s the most viable ogre shooting list, and I think my answer is: as many leadbelchers as money can buy, but I’m still interested in /uncertain on how to to split them. 

12” is not good range ? So a sniping gun line they are never going to be. I think because of this, usual gun line concepts like “shooting at your targets of choice” are not going to apply - with that kind of range, your targets of choice (/ only target) are going to be the units bearing down upon you anyway.

Anyway, whereas I don’t have enough leadbelchers to make a 2000 point army, I might try and put together 1k, and try a couple of configurations (e.g. 6x3, butcher, and 1x6, 4x3, butcher), and see how I get on! I agree that I expect to have to be able to perform in the melee phase as well as shooting. Against a real gun line, I think I will also suffer!

[walheim]

Hi! Today i played a 1k tournament in an escaletion thing at my local gaming area. We where 14 players and i got in 6th place! 2 wins and one loss.

I got 3rd place in best painted and 2nd in sportsmanship

I'll dump in some pictures!

The first match was against death, and with multiple objektives and his teleport shenanigans i got destroyed.

The secound match was against khorne, i got some lucky dicerolls as did he, but i managed to have my ogors on the objectives and in the end, with only 5 lads left, 2 ogors, 1 ironguut and my tyrant i won.

My last game was against stormcast, i tabled his army and held the only objective the entire game. But this guy was the only one able to kill my entire 12 man ogor squad, but my ironguts absolutely pulled their weight, killing 2 entire units themselves.

 

I had a blast, this was my army:

Allegiance: Gutbusters
Butcher (140)
Tyrant (160)
- General
- Great Gutgouger
- Trait: Might is Right
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike 
12 x Ogors (400)
- Pairs of Ogor Clubs or Blades
3 x Ironguts (180)
20 x Grots (100)

Total: 980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 20
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 95
 

[James S]

@walheim, love it dude! You did great. That is my exact 1k list. Lol. Just a different Tyrant build. Should be proud my man!

[James S]

Hey all! Got a game in last night against Deepkin. Relocation Orb. Was a brutal contest and I won by one point end of 5. They are such a dangerous army for sure. Here's some pics and my video battle report!

 

[walheim]

2 minutes ago, James S said:

Hey all! Got a game in last night against Deepkin. Relocation Orb. Was a brutal contest and I won by one point end of 5. They are such a dangerous army for sure. Here's some pics and my video battle report!

 

Must have been a really exciting game! Well done!

[walheim]

13 minutes ago, James S said:

@walheim, love it dude! You did great. That is my exact 1k list. Lol. Just a different Tyrant build. Should be proud my man!

Thank you!

 

Do you think this list works for 1500?

Allegiance: Gutbusters

Leaders
Butcher (140)
Tyrant (160)
- General
- Great Gutgouger
- Trait: Might is Right
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike 
Butcher (140)

Battleline
12 x Ogors (400)
- Pairs of Ogor Clubs or Blades
3 x Ironguts (180)
3 x Ironguts (180)
3 x Ironguts (180)

Units
20 x Grots (100)

Total: 1480 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 10
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 126
 

Or maybe..

Allegiance: Gutbusters
Butcher (140)
Tyrant (160)
- General
- Great Gutgouger
- Trait: Might is Right
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike 
Butcher (140)
12 x Ogors (400)
- Pairs of Ogor Clubs or Blades
3 x Ironguts (180)
3 x Leadbelchers (140)
3 x Ironguts (180)
20 x Grots (100)

Total: 1440 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 11
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 126
 

 

?

[James S]

11 minutes ago, walheim said:

Thank you!

 

Do you think this list works for 1500?

Allegiance: Gutbusters

Leaders
Butcher (140)
Tyrant (160)
- General
- Great Gutgouger
- Trait: Might is Right
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike 
Butcher (140)

Battleline
12 x Ogors (400)
- Pairs of Ogor Clubs or Blades
3 x Ironguts (180)
3 x Ironguts (180)
3 x Ironguts (180)

Units
20 x Grots (100)

Total: 1480 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 10
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 126
 

Or maybe..

Allegiance: Gutbusters
Butcher (140)
Tyrant (160)
- General
- Great Gutgouger
- Trait: Might is Right
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike 
Butcher (140)
12 x Ogors (400)
- Pairs of Ogor Clubs or Blades
3 x Ironguts (180)
3 x Leadbelchers (140)
3 x Ironguts (180)
20 x Grots (100)

Total: 1440 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 11
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 126
 

 

?

I'm partial to the first list. I haven't been able to make Leadbelchers work for me. Give them both a try and see which you like!

[Baron Wastelands]

On 11/10/2018 at 5:29 PM, walheim said:

Thank you!

 

Do you think this list works for 1500?

Allegiance: Gutbusters

Leaders
Butcher (140)
Tyrant (160)
- General
- Great Gutgouger
- Trait: Might is Right
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike 
Butcher (140)

Battleline
12j x Ogors (400)
- Pairs of Ogor Clubs or Blades
3 x Ironguts (180)
3 x Ironguts (180)
3 x Ironguts (180)

Units
20 x Grots (100)

Total: 1480 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 10
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 126
 

 

I also prefer the 1st list, as 3 leadbelchers aren’t going to do much on their own. My only suggestion is: try running a 2nd tyrant instead of a second butcher. You have the points, and I think you get more mileage out of tyrant redundancy than butcher, personally. Also, I have been using wild Fury instead of might is right for my gutgouger tyrant, ever since @James S suggested it - it will increase damage output slightly even before you take wounds.

[Soolong]

Can someone clear something up for me? Was looking at the the normal ogors , the new repack, are they the same models as ironguts but the ironguts come with two handed weapons? And if that is the case, could you not take the spare two handed weapons from the BCR start collecting and make the normal ogres into ironguts?

[Luzgurbel]

Yes to both questions.

 

The Ironguts have another version of the gut protector (sorry, I don't know the proper english name), some pieces of armour (for the shoulders), another heads and different banners. However, the body is the same and with some kit bash you can have Ironguts with no need to buy them.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Luzgurbel

[Soolong]

Thanks for the replie, seems a more cost effective way to go as I can get the normal ogors for £17.25 for 6 but the ironguts are £23 for 4.

[Jetengine]

Stupid question. 

Is it just me or are Gutbusters doing better in game then BCR ? If so why ?

[James S]

14 minutes ago, Jetengine said:

Stupid question. 

Is it just me or are Gutbusters doing better in game then BCR ? If so why ?

Low model count in an objective based game that requires bodies to capture. It's really tough for them. And to be honest, outside of the FLoSH, the damage output isn't as high as it needs to be for such an extremely elite army. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by James S

[Jetengine]

6 minutes ago, James S said:

Low model count in an objective based game that requires bodies to capture. It's really tough for them. And to be honest, outside of the FLoSH, the damage output isn't as high as it needs to be for such an extremely elite army. 

So Gutbusters strength is.....grots ? Since their a cheap chaff unit you throw on objectives ?

[James S]

8 minutes ago, Jetengine said:

So Gutbusters strength is.....grots ? Since their a cheap chaff unit you throw on objectives ?

One of. I've mentioned in my videos that our warscrolls are pretty damn good. We just lack a book with abilities, synergies,and spells.

Our Tyrant and Butchers are priced well. 12 Ogors with double hand weapons and all banners is solid. Ironguts are great. 20 points overcosted, but still better than the 200pts they were last year.

Some guys can make Leadbelchers work, atleast one guy I know of allies in Maneaters and he does well. Couple guys really like Gorgers just for the ambush. 

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by James S

[Jetengine]

Interesting. I've been considering vanilla Ogres for a while now for a 3rd/4th force. It helps that theres a low model count lol. I'm mixed on the plastics though, I'm considering using Warmonger miniatures Great Orcs (essentially Ogres) whom are all wearing Landschnekt gear.