AoS 2 - Spiderfang Grots Discussion

[Skabnoze]

I am starting to consider using the new Squig Gobba as a Spiderfang ally.  It is Moonclan artillery and not a behemoth.  It would give me a good opportunity to convert up some giant spiders that spit acid goo or hurl webs - maybe mount an extra flinger onto a medium sized spider.

Mierce Miniatures has some giant crypt spider models that I think are on 80mm bases.  I have been trying to come up with a conversion project to use them in Spiderfang so I would have an excuse to buy some.  This might be it!

[Paul Buckler]

21 hours ago, TeddyMadeMeDoIt said:

@Paul Buckler wow that's incredible!  I love the variety in that, I'm also a little scared to ask what the blue Spider is doing... 

If your in S.Wales be great to get a game in at some point too 

 

So does anyone are the new points lists for AoS 2.0? I asked GW and they had no idea when the were going to update the Warscroll builder in the community site, which was a bit surprising tbh, or if not can anyone tell me where to find them? Is it GH18?

Playing at BLACKOUT, if your at that tournament

[TeddyMadeMeDoIt]

@Paul BucklerNot sure I'll have an army ready by then to come down but we'll see how it goes,  I'll keep an eye on the tickets

 

I was thinking of running something like this, Spiderfang has all its usual synergies with the addition of some very cool spells but then I though to combine the movement from Fungoid Cave Shaman with some heavy hitters like the GG's and Ard boy combo

 

A.Spider Shaman

A.Spider Shaman

Grot Big Boss on Spider

Fungoid Cave Shaman (Ally)

 

20 Spider Riders

10 Spider Riders

10 Spider Riders

10 Ard Boyz (Ally)

3 Gore Gruntas (Ally)

 

Chronomatic Cogs

Aethervoid Pendulum 

Ravenaks Gnashing Jawsa

2000pts

 

Edited July 1, 2018 by TeddyMadeMeDoIt

[sorokyl]

5 hours ago, TeddyMadeMeDoIt said:

@Paul Buckler

some heavy hitters like the GG's and Ard boy combo

You can't take Ironjaws as ally in a Spiderfang Army unfortunately.  Limited to Aleguzzlers, Gitmob Grots, Greenskinz, Troggoths . All goblin factions have the same allies. Orruks(Ironjawz/Bonesplitters) have the same allies as well but can additionally ally with other Orruks.  I suppose this makes sense. An orc does not want to take commands from a goblin. 

Edited July 2, 2018 by sorokyl

[TeddyMadeMeDoIt]

Ah OK, thanks for that, haven't got any of the new books. So no Ogor Ally either, that's a bit of a shame as I liked the Destruction Alliance theme but like you said it does make sense fluff wise...

Are there new Warscrolls in these new books that update things like the Fungoid Cave Shamans command ability which still reads 'if he is your general' when you download it from the GW website? 

Edited July 2, 2018 by TeddyMadeMeDoIt

[Lord_Skrolk]

Fellow grots... I'm super excited for the Spiderfang Grots in this edition. Just started an army last week, first time playing Destruction and I'm falling in love with the potential of our spider bros. The two most important things in the current meta are mortal wounds and magic and we have plenty of both. 

The Arachnoks with Shamans are just ridiculous in 2.0. With all of the cool new spells, these guys will just drop mortal wounds all over the field. Just played a match vs Nighthaunt today where one of my Arachnaroks dropped 20 mortal wounds in one turn (10 from the Pendulum spell, 3 from the Quicksilver Swords spell, 7 from their fangs attacks). 

Because of the limited range of some of these spells, being able to deliver them from a 14 wound/4+ save model in the thick of combat (plus with a huge base for several extra centimeters of range!) creates possibilities that a lot of other factions just don't have. And just as importantly, having several sources of dispelling that can move confidently everywhere is a huge boost. 

And the Hammerblade artefact from the Destruction allegiance will be amazing with the Arachnok's huge base size. A mortal wound for each enemy model within 3" on a 5+ roll means just stick the spider into an enemy horde and slice them down. And in the new core rule book Hammerblade got updated to not affect friendly units, so you don't have to worry about friendly fire. Being able to have 2 or 3 models in every army with a larger base than the freakin' Glottkin that can take this artefact is dirty. 

tl;dr Mortal Wounds and magic are the most important things in the new meta and Spiderfang Grots sneakily excel in both 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Lord_Skrolk

[Lord_Skrolk]

15 hours ago, TeddyMadeMeDoIt said:

I was thinking of running something like this, Spiderfang has all its usual synergies with the addition of some very cool spells but then I though to combine the movement from Fungoid Cave Shaman with some heavy hitters like the GG's and Ard boy combo

 

A.Spider Shaman

A.Spider Shaman

Grot Big Boss on Spider

Fungoid Cave Shaman (Ally)

 

20 Spider Riders

10 Spider Riders

10 Spider Riders

10 Ard Boyz (Ally)

3 Gore Gruntas (Ally)

 

Chronomatic Cogs

Aethervoid Pendulum 

Ravenaks Gnashing Jawsa

2000pts

 

This is a great way to go! Only question I have is what the Gore Gruntas add to the list. You already have mobility with all of the Spiders, they don't synergise with any other units, and if you want some beef to hold areas/deal damage there are better ways to get it for the point cost

I would probably take those out and replace them with something like Moonclan Grots or some more Ironjawz infantry

[Skabnoze]

I don't know if the hammerblade will work on the Arachnarok since the shaman does not have a melee attack.  Probably something worth getting clarification on.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Skabnoze

[fanatical-mushroom-addict]

40 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

I don't know if the hammerblade will work on the Arachnarok since the shaman does not have a melee attack.  Probably something worth getting clarification on.

All artifacts only apply to the rider not the mount. Don’t know if this answers your question

[Skabnoze]

Just now, fanatical-mushroom-addict said:

All artifacts only apply to the rider not the mount. Don’t know if this answers your question

Correct.  Which was what I was referring to in regards for this.  The shaman riding the spider does not have an attack at all - so by my reading he cannot use the Hammerblade.

[fanatical-mushroom-addict]

Oh right. This is so annoying as a rule as I fell in love with the battle brew arachnarok with all the buffs.

[Skabnoze]

8 minutes ago, fanatical-mushroom-addict said:

Oh right. This is so annoying as a rule as I fell in love with the battle brew arachnarok with all the buffs.

Rules interactions aside, I find the mental idea of a shaman getting his giant spider drunk pretty hilarious.  I think battlebrew should work just for that reason alone.

[Lord_Skrolk]

Normally I would say the Arachnarok counts as a mount, but on the Warscroll there exists the option for the Arachnarok by itself which doesnt exist on other mount+rider combos, so I'm inclined to think things like Hammerblade or the Brew can apply. Definitely need some clarification from gee dubs here. 

[sorokyl]

Yeah, I think in this case, although it doesn't really make sense logically, for rules purposes the goblins are the mount and the Spider is the unit.  I've seen several instances of this lately where newer/updated warscrolls have explicit language for this. For example Lady Olynder:

Lady Olynder is accompanied by two Banshee Handmaidens, who are armed with Spectral Claws. For rules purposes, the Banshee Handmaidens are treated in the same manner as a mount
 

[Paul Buckler]

Annoying as it is unless the scroll gets re written, can't see any way for the artifacts to effect the arachnarok. 

Its clearly the mount and the shaman has no attack profile.

[nuttyknatty]

I ran a Spiderfang list in my last Battle Report!

Sadly you’ll find no great tactical insights, but it’ll keep you entertained for nearly ten minutes (hopefully!)?

 

[sorokyl]

5 hours ago, Paul Buckler said:

Annoying as it is unless the scroll gets re written, can't see any way for the artifacts to effect the arachnarok. 

Its clearly the mount and the shaman has no attack profile.

I do not see how the Spider is clearly the mount.  I would say that the spider is clearly not the mount, as the riders are optional. 

Let's look at the warscroll:

DESCRIPTION An Arachnarok Spider is a single model. It attacks its prey with venomous Monstrous Fangs and its massive Chitinous Legs. 

This is the description of the unit. The unit is a spider. That is also clear in the name of the warscroll "Arachnarok Spider".

SPIDERFANG GROTS Many Arachnarok Spiders carry a howdah of Spiderfang Grots into battle, who attack those below with Spider-bows and Crooked Spears. These howdahs can also mount either a Flinger – a crude web-slinging catapult – or a Catchweb Spidershrine – a magical artefact tended to by a Spiderfang Grot Shaman.

This section describes OPTIONAL configurations of the unit. 

If you aren't convinced, let's take a look at another, closer warscroll, that was rewritten recently with modern language:

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/aos_warscrolls/Downloads-AoS/aos-warscroll-squig-gobba.pdf

DESCRIPTION A Squig Gobba is armed with Spit-squigs and a Cavernous Maw.

Again, The description describes the unit the warscroll is about. The Squig.

CREW: This model has a grot crew that attack with their Bashin’ Sticks. For rules purposes, the crew are treated in the same manner as a mount

Again, the special rules discuss the crew. In this recently updated warscroll, it clarifies the crew is treated as a mount.


Goblins on a spider vs Goblins on a Squg.  Warscrolls read very similarly.  I do not think you need an FAQ to understand that the goblins on the Arachnarok are, for rules purposes, the mount.



 

[Skabnoze]

Those goblins don’t ride the Squig Gobba - they poke it with sticks to get it to go where they want.  It is an artillery model and not a hero model. It is a very unique model and probably not the best comparison.

[PlasticCraic]

Battle Brew: Even though the A-Rok itself is the "main course", it is clearly a mount - stuff is mounted on it.  Unless and until it gets a rewrite like the Gobba, no dice unfortunately. 

Hammerblade: use it as a weapon to replace the Howdah's spears.  They are not the mount.

I totally suggest bombarding  the FAQ inbox with polite queries about the former by the way!

[Skabnoze]

10 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Battle Brew: Even though the A-Rok itself is the "main course", it is clearly a mount - stuff is mounted on it.  Unless and until it gets a rewrite like the Gobba, no dice unfortunately. 

Hammerblade: use it as a weapon to replace the Howdah's spears.  They are not the mount.

I totally suggest bombarding  the FAQ inbox with polite queries about the former by the way!

Given the very old wording of the Arachnarok warscroll I would not argue if an opponent wanted to use the Hammerblade in that fashion against me.  I don’t think it is how GW intends for it to work, and I won’t use it that way, but I would let someone do it rather than arguing.

For whatever reason GW decided simply to not give the shaman a melee weapon.  I guess he is too busy tending to the catch-web shrine.  Right now this discussion is mainly us arguing semantics on warscrolls because we want a buff to work - but I am pretty sure it is fairly obvious that the shaman is the hero and the Arachnarok is the mount.

I hope that GW clarifies this one way or the other.  We should not have to guess or interpret simple concepts like this.

 

[Paul Buckler]

4 hours ago, sorokyl said:

I do not see how the Spider is clearly the mount.  I would say that the spider is clearly not the mount, as the riders are optional. 
 

Goblin shaman riding on arachnarok, it's a mount.  Don't be that guy.

Great if GW Faq's it that the arachnarok can take stuff like this, but it can't right now

[sorokyl]

6 hours ago, Paul Buckler said:

Goblin shaman riding on arachnarok, it's a mount.  Don't be that guy.

Great if GW Faq's it that the arachnarok can take stuff like this, but it can't right now

What if you build it without the OPTIONAL howdah? (See how the new AoS app has 3 different warscroll for arachnarok). 

If it has zero goblins on it, is it still a mount? What is mounted on it? 

Something being a mount literally, and something being a mount for rules purposes, are two different things. 

When you say it can't take it right now, that's your interpretation of the rules, which to me seems wrong for sure. 

[Paul Buckler]

Read the description - carry a howdah, how you model it is irrelivant.  Interpret it how you like just don't be disappointed if your opponents says not a chance you can do that.

Only 1 of thsoe scrolls has the hero  keyword btw, in case you had missed that.  And you need the HERO keyword to take an artifact, possibly you missed that as well. 

Trying to argue something that clearly is not how the scroll works just makes you come accross as desperate to bend the rules.

I hope it gets FAQ'd so it can take these artifacts, spiderfang is really weak and needs every help it can get.

 

 

[Skabnoze]

2 hours ago, sorokyl said:

What if you build it without the OPTIONAL howdah? (See how the new AoS app has 3 different warscroll for arachnarok). 

If it has zero goblins on it, is it still a mount? What is mounted on it? 

Something being a mount literally, and something being a mount for rules purposes, are two different things. 

When you say it can't take it right now, that's your interpretation of the rules, which to me seems wrong for sure. 

If it has no howda then it is simply a monster.  It is no different at that point than having a Colossal Squig or a Rogue Idol in your army.

If you choose the warscroll with the howda and flinger it is pretty much the same, but it gains the Grot keyword and some extra attacks from the howda.

If you choose the warscoll with the shaman then it gains the Grot and Hero keyword and the model becomes a wizard that can cast 2 spells.  It also gains the leader keyword for Matched Play army selection.  It seems fairly obvious to me that the reason this warscoll gains the Hero/Leader keywords is due to the inclusion of the shaman and not the spider.

Bear in mind that these particular warscrolls are about as old as Age of Sigmar and they predate the idea of Allegiance abilities and Artifacts.  Also bear in mind that they are located in a niche subfaction that GW has not been overly concerned with for a while.  I'm sure they will get around to Destruction and Spiderfang and do something at some point - but that has not happened yet.  Most wizards, even squishy ones, have a melee attack because they need some way to fight back in combat if engaged.  My guess is that they did not bother to assign one to the Shaman on Arachnarok because it would be practically worthless and the spider already provides the melee power.  They probably figured it would be fine to have the shaman zonked out of his mind on spider-venom and magical power from the catch-web shrine.  Game wise that is pretty much the case except for when it comes to magic weapons.

If you want to play that way and your opponents are cool with it then thats great.  Go for it.  But I don't think I would try to push this very hard at a tournament.  It would most likely come down to a judge ruling and I expect most judges would say no.

[amysrevenge]

9 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

I expect most judges would say no.

After having a good laugh.