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AoS 2 - Moonclan Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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They posted the AoS rules for them today and I am pretty disappointed in them.  Zarbag’s spell would be cool if the range was not 3”.  But as it stands he is currently the worst wizard that Moonclan has access to.  That might change when a Moonclan or grot book is released, but that line of thought is a bit depressing.  The unit itself suffers the same problem that the original Shadespire units did in that it is too small to be useful at all within a game built around large armies.  

They are both a package deal at 160 points.  If you figure that zarbag costs 80 and the unit costs 80 then I can’t really say that the cost itself is wrong.  The grots unit includes a fanatic, 2 squigs, a herder, a netter, and 3 grots with bows.  If you priced out what those all would cost then it is more than 80, but as a combined unit it is horribly fragile and utterly without any focus.  I don’t really know what you are supposed to do with these guys.  They will probably shatter after you take just a couple of wounds.

I am quite disappointed in the rules for these guys after seeing the rules for other warbands.  The Nighthaunt wizard is very nice and a good addition to that army.  On the bright side, as a Shadespire warband the grots look very interesting and a lot of fun.

Hopefully other people can put a better spin on the AoS rules for this unit as I am just not seeing much positive about them.  They will make great alternate sculpts though.

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I just read the unit warscroll again and the rule for squigs going wild no longer ignores Moonclan units for these guys.  So if the 2 squigs in this unit go wild then they can hurt your own units.  It’s not that awful since it is still just on a 4+ and the worst it could do is 2 wounds.  I just hope it is not a preview of new squigs going wild rules from the upcoming book...

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5 minutes ago, novakai said:

He does have better combat stats and one more wounds then the other shamans, not sure if it make it better

though I do see potential with the Balewind vortex though with a nine inch range instead

Well the standard Moonclan Shaman currently has a better spell and is a better caster every turn.  The fungoid shaman has much better defensive stats, a worse spell, but a nice command ability.

I would easily take both of those and I don’t even see a great use for this guy as a third shaman.  I would probably just take a third Moonclan since they can madcap every round (unless that changes).

If the range of Zarbag’s spell was at least 12” or preferably 18” then I would like him a whole lot more.

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hmm reading the warscroll, I think the way they design him to be use would be to have him surrounded by a large unit of Moonclan grots and when they get charge the enemy, they bring him into combat because of his 2 inch reach then he is safe melee combat for the most part but he has good statistic to dish out damage in return. and then your in range to use his spell.

still kind of gimicky but I think it possible to make it work.

I think the squig rule should be review and ask for clarification though

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53 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

They are both a package deal at 160 points.  If you figure that zarbag costs 80 and the unit costs 80 then I can’t really say that the cost itself is wrong.  The grots unit includes a fanatic, 2 squigs, a herder, a netter, and 3 grots with bows.  If you priced out what those all would cost then it is more than 80, but as a combined unit it is horribly fragile and utterly without any focus.  I don’t really know what you are supposed to do with these guys.  They will probably shatter after you take just a couple of wounds.

To be fair when you take a unit of fanatics it's primarily to interrupt charges more than to do damage. As such that fanatic is worth nearly 100 points on his own. The small unit also gives you a good unit to zone from deepstrikes or hold unthreatened objectives.

30 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

I just read the unit warscroll again and the rule for squigs going wild no longer ignores Moonclan units for these guys.  So if the 2 squigs in this unit go wild then they can hurt your own units.  It’s not that awful since it is still just on a 4+ and the worst it could do is 2 wounds.  I just hope it is not a preview of new squigs going wild rules from the upcoming book...

How much it's errata'd super quick or becomes part of the Moonclan Allegiance. The other thing to note is that as they have 2 wounds each you can just sling the wounds on them instead of the Grots. 

19 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Well the standard Moonclan Shaman currently has a better spell and is a better caster every turn.  The fungoid shaman has much better defensive stats, a worse spell, but a nice command ability.

I would easily take both of those and I don’t even see a great use for this guy as a third shaman.  I would probably just take a third Moonclan since they can madcap every round (unless that changes).

If the range of Zarbag’s spell was at least 12” or preferably 18” then I would like him a whole lot more.

His spell is disgusting for a bunch of different reasons. If it had a 12" or 18" range it would be grossly overpowered for the cost. Balewind and/or Mirrors greatly improve it's usability.

  • As it stands atm you can use your destruction allegiance ability to potentially charge him in during your hero phase then cast it and force your opponent to disengage, that's pretty filthy. Also great for any double turns.
  • Sitting him 1.1" into a unit as it moves forward creates an area the opponent needs to avoid or he can cast it. Again tricky but tactical, very Sneaky.
  • Given the size of moonclan units it's quite easy for you to surround an elite unit then bomb it, it's an Arcane Bolt, which can be cast the same turn as Arcane Bolt and does D6 mortals instead of 1.
  • Forcing a unit to retreat can let you reposition, shoot something else and then charge without using a Command Point. Letting you move and charge to get onto an objective if you need.

Overall I'd say the warband is a great addition for destruction as a whole. for 30 points more than 20 grots you get 10 wounds worth of grots, which has a netter, a fanatic AND a  unique shaman.

It's a great way to spend those extra couple of points which would normally be a pain. Not OP but definitely solid.

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5 minutes ago, novakai said:

hmm reading the warscroll, I think the way they design him to be use would be to have him surrounded by a large unit of Moonclan grots and when they get charge the enemy, they bring him into combat because of his 2 inch reach then he is safe melee combat for the most part but he has good statistic to dish out damage in return. and then your in range to use his spell.

still kind of gimicky but I think it possible to make it work.

I think the squig rule should be review and ask for clarification though

That might be the case. 

Personally, I am not sure that I am really interested in that spell simply as a way to free up a single unit he is running around with. I would be quite interested in the spell if he could stand at range and mess with the positioning of units.

The Briar Queen does this since her spell is a long-range bomb that restricts the movement of the units it hits.  She is also a wizard in a faction that has a lot of heroes but only a couple wizards outside of named characters.

It’s not a huge deal, but I just find that in general the Shadespire warband AoS rules are mostly a very wasted opportunity for something interesting and fun.

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33 minutes ago, Malakree said:

It's a great way to spend those extra couple of points which would normally be a pain. Not OP but definitely solid.

I don't ever find 160 points to be a pain to spend - especially with grot armies.  It's just my preference but I think that most of the time I would prefer to buy either 2 shaman or one shaman and 5 more squigs for that cost.  Or even just bank 3 command points to use for Inspiring Presence.

As I said before, I would like the spell a lot more if it did not come with an absurdly short range.  That short range is going to make the spell either fairly easy for the enemy to dictate how it can be used or force you to jump through too many hoops to get its effect off.  As it is I don't see it really being overly useful most of the time.

I understand your point about fanatics being charge interruptors mainly (a useful tactic although having used them for decades I wish they were more of the destructive murder-balls they used to be - thats another conversation), but I would not pay 100 points for a single one.  But ignoring the fanatic, my main issue is the utter fragility of the unit.  It is a single 10 wound unit with no save to speak of and a very low leadership.  That unit can be crippled with little effort.  It is mainly useful sitting on an objective far from the main fight.  You could do that for less points with a single min unit of cave squig, but there is merit in using the gits for that since the fanatic could make it tough for a small enemy unit to charge them off the objective late game.

These warscrolls are not the worst thing ever.  If they had separate costs I might occasionally consider using one or the other.  Combined for a cost of 160 I am not sure I find them very interesting - although who knows what the final moonclan/grots army will look like when they get a book.

 

All that said, I am glad that you like the rules and see a lot of use for them.  I hope that all my initial thoughts on this unit turn out to be completely and utterly wrong in practice.

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The warband seems to be designed around disrupting enemy movement. When looked at objectively they seem like they'll be worth the points, A shaman with a good yet short range spell, and two squigs with -1 to hit in melee and plenty of extra wounds to use, and on top of it all a fanatic to help with charges. but I could see them getting wiped out before doing much. Since I plan on buying the boys anyway I'll give them a fair shake and see what happens.

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That single fanatic alone makes it worth it to me. No longer do I have to sacrifice three of them to stop a charge. Now I can safely focus them on the offense.

The Shaman's spell is interesting. It can be absolutely devastating if used correctly, and can outright deny certain positions from the opponent by having him just behind the front lines of your bigger grot blobs. Expanding space without having to chop your way through it? Super! Don't know how balewind interacts with it, but the portal becomes very tasty with that in mind. 

Definitely gonna pick Zarbag and friends up. I intend to make some seriously dirty, underhanded plays with them :D

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2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

I don't ever find 160 points to be a pain to spend - especially with grot armies. 

So I'm specifically comparing it to a unit of 20 Moonclan Grots. You are losing 10 wounds on the unit, spending 30 points and getting a shaman, with a niche unique spell, and a fanatic. That's the framework I feel it needs to be analysed in.

A squad of 20 Grots and 3 Fanatics is 230 points and, as a small defensive unit, performs about the same as the unit half of Zarbag's.

As a unit they are definitely more useful for the rest of destruction than moonclan, I still feel they are a solid choice in a moonclan army.

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12 minutes ago, Malakree said:

So I'm specifically comparing it to a unit of 20 Moonclan Grots. You are losing 10 wounds on the unit, spending 30 points and getting a shaman, with a niche unique spell, and a fanatic. That's the framework I feel it needs to be analysed in.

A squad of 20 Grots and 3 Fanatics is 230 points and, as a small defensive unit, performs about the same as the unit half of Zarbag's.

As a unit they are definitely more useful for the rest of destruction than moonclan, I still feel they are a solid choice in a moonclan army.

Ok, I won't argue against you in that context.

But for me, I don't go overboard on fanatics and have not since 5th edition Fantasy where it was an awful but silly tactic.  I like fanatics, but I don't put them in all units and I still hold that opinion in AoS.  I generally reserve fanatics for larger units or units taken expressly meant to deliver fanatics.  And I don't think I would very often take fanatics in min-sized grots units.  If I were to use a unit of 20 grots it would mostly be as either a sacrificial chaff unit or something to park on an obscure objective for the entire game.  Most of the time I prefer units of 60 (but at least 40) - and those are the units that I am likely to add fanatics to.   So my discussion is coming from that framework.

I disagree that Zarbag's unit performs about the same as a min unit of grots and fanatics.  Zarbag's gits can be easily evaporated before they ever get a chance to deliver that fanatic.  It takes very little effort to make the unit simply disappear.  The grots take at least a serious effort to remove before they can get the fanatics out.  But, if you assume that the Gits cost 80 points then that is what you would expect for the price.  If you want Zarbag then I see no issue with the cost of the unit.  If I could buy either Zarbag or the unit separately I probably would do so.  And honestly, I would probably take the unit of Gits more often than Zarbag at 80 points just for the purpose of holding an objective.

Anyways, I think we are simply evaluating the unit from different perspectives - which is fine.  I am looking at the unit from the perspective of a full Moonclan force and I don't think they do anything that I really want for their cost compared to other current options.  But, that could change once a full book is released.

I can see your point for mixed destruction.  I won't comment too much on that since I am not honestly overly enthused with basic grand alliance armies.  It is just personal preference but I prefer specific allegiances than soup forces.  The soup forces that I do like are the ones designed with that concept in mind like Legions of Nagash or Beasts of Chaos.  But I mainly view General Destruction as a vehicle to play the weird junk that does not fit well elsewhere - like a bunch of Magma dragons, a ton of Giants, a Troll army, etc.  But that is simply my preference and I appreciate that other people have a different view.

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2 hours ago, Mr.Pengwinn said:

Since I plan on buying the boys anyway I'll give them a fair shake and see what happens.

Same for me.  I don't like their rules as read on the warscroll, but I will play them before making any full judgements.

But I will say that they seem like a really weird and fun Shadespire crew.  I really liked all of the abilities that I read in the article about them in that game.  And I buy every goblin model anyways - so they are still a guaranteed sell to me.  I'm excited about the models - just less so about the AoS rules.

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55 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Anyways, I think we are simply evaluating the unit from different perspectives - which is fine.  I am looking at the unit from the perspective of a full Moonclan force and I don't think they do anything that I really want for their cost compared to other current options.  But, that could change once a full book is released.

I can see your point for mixed destruction.  I won't comment too much on that since I am not honestly overly enthused with basic grand alliance armies.  It is just personal preference but I prefer specific allegiances than soup forces.  The soup forces that I do like are the ones designed with that concept in mind like Legions of Nagash or Beasts of Chaos.  But I mainly view General Destruction as a vehicle to play the weird junk that does not fit well elsewhere - like a bunch of Magma dragons, a ton of Giants, a Troll army, etc.  But that is simply my preference and I appreciate that other people have a different view.

I'm actually more looking at it from the perspective of an Ironjawz player. It takes 1 allied slot (Actually looking at the rules I think it might be 2 :(), gives me a wizard and a reasonable small chaff unit for the same price as 10 Ardboys. When I say "Destruction" I meant all the other allegiances rather than GA:Destruction, to get a fanatic into IJ any other way you're looking at a large allied investment and still not getting the wizard.

Personally I feel like Zarbag himself is on a similar level to the other 3 grot wizards, his shroom is once per game but doesn't disable you if it fails. His spell is only 3" but it's significantly stronger than the fungoids if you can use it. He has 5 wounds rather than 4 like the other shamans but lacks the defensive capabilities in other ways.

So really, as a Grot Wizard, he's a good approximation for 80 points.

That means the consideration is around the other unit, do you consider it and it's inbuilt fanatic to be worth 80 points. If yes then the unit is worth it, if no then it's not. It's why I suspect Zarbag will be used more outside of moonclan than inside it.

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I have a plan to use the squig gobba inside a unit of regular grots, if you have him behind the second rank, he could be devastating, as his massive maw attack has a 2 inch range, so he adds extra combat power to the unit, and can take advantage of a wall of protective grots

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I’m concerned the net doesn’t have a attack profile on the warscroll and it mentioned he carries a slitta. Maybe nets won’t be a separate weapon in the new rules? It would make combat easier but it will make my units a lot less killy. If they do that I hope they make them cheaper in points.

I really think in small point games it will make a decent choice. The fanatic is decent for tying up a single monster or hero. I hope his spell range is a typo though. It could be ok if you have something surrounded by a unit  but otherwise pretty situational 

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It seems that Moonclan must be getting here soon (with at least 1, probably 2 Warhammer Underworlds bands, some concept art in that WD article about the sketch artists, and the Fungus shaman), I'm just curious how soon. Any chance we will see them in November?

My wife and I are starting an AoS painting project next year (she really likes Nighthaunt), and I love the Moonclan aesthetic, so we've slowly been accumulating stuff.

I currently have 20 BfSP archers, 60 pokin' sticks, and 20 hand weapon models, with various command models from BfSP. I will also be picking up the Shadespire band, as I play that anyways, and the new models are fantastic. Is there anything I should look to pick up? I think I've got a decent core to build around, and I'm not sure if I want to get Squigs, as I'm thinking we'll get plastic ones in the new release.

I'm really looking forward to seeing more of the armored goblins.

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40 minutes ago, Sabotage! said:

It seems that Moonclan must be getting here soon (with at least 1, probably 2 Warhammer Underworlds bands, some concept art in that WD article about the sketch artists, and the Fungus shaman), I'm just curious how soon. Any chance we will see them in November?

My wife and I are starting an AoS painting project next year (she really likes Nighthaunt), and I love the Moonclan aesthetic, so we've slowly been accumulating stuff.

I currently have 20 BfSP archers, 60 pokin' sticks, and 20 hand weapon models, with various command models from BfSP. I will also be picking up the Shadespire band, as I play that anyways, and the new models are fantastic. Is there anything I should look to pick up? I think I've got a decent core to build around, and I'm not sure if I want to get Squigs, as I'm thinking we'll get plastic ones in the new release.

I'm really looking forward to seeing more of the armored goblins.

most theorize the Moonclan release got swap with BoC in September to a later date, November is really the last month for Moonclan to show up in 2018 since December is usually a month of lighter releases, if not Moonclan would have been push way back into February or March.

For Models I think you can use a Fungloid Cave Shaman since it the newest model and probably the most relevant model right now and once the battletomes comes out when the Moonclan get a unique spell lore. any of the monster like the Mangler squig and Colossal Squig are important units right now but I suggest you wait until the release before buying the more expensive monster

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4 hours ago, novakai said:

most theorize the Moonclan release got swap with BoC in September to a later date, November is really the last month for Moonclan to show up in 2018 since December is usually a month of lighter releases, if not Moonclan would have been push way back into February or March.

For Models I think you can use a Fungloid Cave Shaman since it the newest model and probably the most relevant model right now and once the battletomes comes out when the Moonclan get a unique spell lore. any of the monster like the Mangler squig and Colossal Squig are important units right now but I suggest you wait until the release before buying the more expensive monster

Thanks for the feedback Novakai. I'll definitely go about picking up a Fungoid Cave Shaman in the next month or so, I really like the model, so you won't see any complains for me.

It would be cool to see Moonclan in November, and I don't see it being super unlikely, since the only thing we know for sure that GW is putting out in November is a Necromunda gang and a Blood Bowl team (and possibly that 40k Blackstone Fortress game)....and we haven't really had much for AoS since this summer (BoC from what I hear is a really cool book, but model wise I think all that was released alongside it was the Herdstone and the Endless Spells). I also don't really see GW putting out another big 40k release this year after Orks. That said, I wouldn't be upset if things got pushed until January/February/March. December will probably just be bundles and the usual fare GW puts out at the holidays.

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