AoS 2 - Beastclaw Raiders Discussion

[PlasticCraic]

I like the SH Beastriders, they are pretty solid at 320 imo.

Most people would run a Frostlord on Stonehorn and a Huskard on Thundertusk (or 2, or 3) so it's not the loadout that most people consider optimal.

You don't really want a Thundertusk in melee because its profile degrades so quickly.  So the combat hero on what is essentially an artillery piece is a bit of a curate's egg without a clear role.  420 points is ridiculous and I would not consider this piece viable at all.

The main use of a Huskard on Stonehorn would be for the Eurlbad requirement.  I would say that he is usable at 360 points, if not optimal.

Would it really be that hard to switch the heroes around?  At a push you could just swap the heroes' hands over.  The one with the big spear is the Frostlord, and the one with the Vulture is the Huskard, and I can't really see anyone questioning that.

You actually have the building blocks for an Olwyr Alfrostun, which has decent batallion benefits.  The problem being that once you have included the minimum requirements (including the Frostlord on Thundertusk tax), you have virtually no bodies on the board, not enough heroes to use all the artefacts you have paid for, no healing on the Thundertusks and nothing useful to spend all those command points on.

Personally I'd be buying one of these and carrying out some surgery!

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Citadel-Saw-2017-Non-Sale

 

Spoiler

Leaders
Frostlord on Thundertusk (420)
Huskard on Stonehorn (340)
- Blood Vulture

Battleline

Units
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
2 x Mournfang Pack (160)
- Gargant Hackers
2 x Frost Sabres (40)
2 x Frost Sabres (40)

Behemoths
Stonehorn Beastriders (320)

Battalions
Olwyr Alfrostun (190)
Eurlbad (170)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 81

(You could also take a Fungoid Shammy instead of the Sabres, although that makes you 2 drops).

Edited August 15, 2018 by PlasticCraic

[PlasticCraic]

9 minutes ago, Davros said:

What you have is the setup for a Olwyr Alfrostun Battalion, if you have 6 mournfang there is your 2000 point list.

as to your question, they are all fine. The most optimal would probably be the oppisite of what you have but the margin isn't great.

i love the huskard on stonehorn when used in combination with a big unit (4+) of mournfang as anything able to alter the order of combat is huge imo.

I think our messages overlapped there Davros!  Must have been typing at the same time. 

I'm really not keen on the FL on TT personally, but I do agree that the Huskard on Stonehorn is viable.  I'm a great believer that the Stonehorn itself does most of the damage anyway (hence why I like the Beastriders)...being able to take an artefact, he's pretty solid at 360 points. 

And like you said the combo with the MF is useful (I quite like Mournfang, although I think I'm in a minority there!).

[Kyriakin]

After a false-start with likely never-to-be-Battletomed Dark Elves (i.e. Scourge Privateers/Darkling Covens) - all while hoping-against-hope that my one true love, the Tomb Kings, would return - I have decided to liquidise everything I own, and go all-in with Beastclaw Raiders.

Before my 17-year hiatus, my teenage army was Kislevites as I always liked the snow/ice theme. However, I don't like "scrappy" looking armies like Ogres, O&G, FEC, (etc.), nor low model-count "elite" armies.

However, as a non-competition player, there are higher model-count possibilities for this army and potential future opportunities for ice-themed ally conversions (seriously, GW, make a "Monsters of Destruction" faction and get Forgeworld to dump their stuff in it) is tempting.

The two mechanics I was leaning into were "Skal" for hardcore ambushing and "Thundertusks/Yhetees" for wound regeneration shenanigans, but decided to try and compromise by forcing elements of both into a list. Also, I feel the Mournfang are too visually appealing and iconic to leave out entirely, but it kinda sucks to end up on 1970 with a Skal-based army, lol:

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders
Mortal Realm: Ghur
Huskard on Thundertusk (360)
- General
- Blood Vulture
- Trait: Everwinter's Master 
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm 
Icebrow Hunter (140)
- Artefact: The Pelt of Charngar 
Troggoth Hag (380)
6 x Icefall Yhetees (240)
6 x Icefall Yhetees (240)
2 x Mournfang Pack (160)
- Gargant Hackers
6 x Frost Sabres (120)
6 x Frost Sabres (120)
4 x Frost Sabres (80)
Skal (150)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 127

PS: Am I correct in thinking that Skal means that the Frost Sabres can ambush the usual 9 inches away, and then get +3" to charge (i.e. making it effectively a 6" charge anywhere on the board)? I don't have the book yet, so I am basing my information on 4dChan at the moment.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Kyriakin

[blueshirtman]

Not having a caster of some sort means that in multiple scenarios you have a 2k pts lists with almost no scoring units.  Also no magic protection means some real unfun times, if your opponent happens to bring one of their own. A

[heywoah_twitch]

18 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

After a false-start with likely never-to-be-Battletomed Dark Elves (i.e. Scourge Privateers/Darkling Covens) - all while hoping-against-hope that my one true love, the Tomb Kings, would return - I have decided to liquidise everything I own, and go all-in with Beastclaw Raiders.

Before my 17-year hiatus, my teenage army was Kislevites as I always liked the snow/ice theme. However, I don't like "scrappy" looking armies like Ogres, O&G, FEC, (etc.), nor low model-count "elite" armies.

However, as a non-competition player, there are higher model-count possibilities for this army and potential future opportunities for ice-themed ally conversions (seriously, GW, make a "Monsters of Destruction" faction and get Forgeworld to dump their stuff in it) is tempting.

The two mechanics I was leaning into were "Skal" for hardcore ambushing and "Thundertusks/Yhetees" for wound regeneration shenanigans, but decided to try and compromise by forcing elements of both into a list. Also, I feel the Mournfang are too visually appealing and iconic to leave out entirely, but it kinda sucks to end up on 1970 with a Skal-based army, lol:

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders
Mortal Realm: Ghur
Huskard on Thundertusk (360)
- General
- Harpoon Launcher
- Trait: Everwinter's Master 
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm 
Huskard on Thundertusk (360)
- Harpoon Launcher
Icebrow Hunter (140)
- Artefact: The Pelt of Charngar 
6 x Icefall Yhetees (240)
6 x Icefall Yhetees (240)
2 x Mournfang Pack (160)
- Culling Clubs or Prey Hackers with Iron Fists
6 x Frost Sabres (120)
6 x Frost Sabres (120)
4 x Frost Sabres (80)
Skal (150)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123

PS: Am I correct in thinking that Skal means that the Frost Sabres can ambush the usual 9 inches away, and then get +3" to charge (i.e. making it effectively a 6" charge anywhere on the board)? I don't have the book yet, so I am basing my information on 4dChan at the moment.

This looks like a fun list, though I have a suggestion or two. Definitely go blood vulture instead of harpoon launcher on the huskards, as it more consistently does damage and doesn't require los. People generally use gargant hackers on mournfang, but to be honest their damage sucks so bad that you might as well do whatever you want - if our warscrolls ever get the 2nd edition face-lift they desperately need, the iron fists will certainly reflect mws on unmodified 6s and until then just send them after rendless targets. You play a lot of yhetees which I think is great, they're a sleeper hit in bcr imo. That's a ton of frost sabers!

 

[EldritchX]

On 8/19/2018 at 4:23 PM, Kyriakin said:

PS: Am I correct in thinking that Skal means that the Frost Sabres can ambush the usual 9 inches away, and then get +3" to charge (i.e. making it effectively a 6" charge anywhere on the board)? I don't have the book yet, so I am basing my information on 4dChan at the moment.

Yea it does. You can also consider a Frostlord on Thundertusk instead of one of the Huskards if you want to further improve the odds of successfully charging (For both Yhetees and Frost Sabres).

A Fungoid Cave Shaman ally with Emerald Lifeswarm can add more healing too. Throwing in Chronomantic Cogs on top will all but guarantee successful charges (and increase the likelihood of no-charge pile-ins for the Yhetees.

[Kyriakin]

3 hours ago, EldritchX said:

Yea it does. You can also consider a Frostlord on Thundertusk instead of one of the Huskards if you want to further improve the odds of successfully charging (For both Yhetees and Frost Sabres).

A Fungoid Cave Shaman ally with Emerald Lifeswarm can add more healing too. Throwing in Chronomantic Cogs on top will all but guarantee successful charges (and increase the likelihood of no-charge pile-ins for the Yhetees.

I thought about it, but you would lose the second healing. In addition to the points-saving and the fact that you can still use a generic Command Ability, it tipped the balance in favour of the double-Tuskard. 

Obviously, you'd still get the 4+ to 3+ bonus on the first healing though, as that bonus doesn't specify which load-out the Thundertusk has.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Kyriakin

[Kadeton]

On 8/11/2018 at 2:38 AM, blueshirtman said:

I have no idea what could bring a new player to pick up BCR.

Why would a new player care which army was the most competitive? As a relatively new player who started with BCR, I can tell you that the tiny number of models to paint, the surprisingly cheap Start Collecting box that actually contains everything you need to get started and to build a collection, and the direct and uncomplicated playstyle were all serious points in their favour.

I'm not going to win a tournament against hardcore players any time soon... but that's nothing to do with the Beastclaws, it's because I'm a new player. The games I've had with them have been really fast and really fun, and that's way more important to me.

[Oldmanlee]

2 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Why would a new player care which army was the most competitive? As a relatively new player who started with BCR, I can tell you that the tiny number of models to paint, the surprisingly cheap Start Collecting box that actually contains everything you need to get started and to build a collection, and the direct and uncomplicated playstyle were all serious points in their favour.

I'm not going to win a tournament against hardcore players any time soon... but that's nothing to do with the Beastclaws, it's because I'm a new player. The games I've had with them have been really fast and really fun, and that's way more important to me.

Well said sir ? 

[heywoah_twitch]

Blueshirtman is very passionate, and comes from the rudest local meta I've ever heard of, and his depression about bcr can get a bit much I'll agree. But he is right, for the most part.

Let's not fall into a trap of misrepresenting a side of extremes. No one is saying that bcr should be the most competitive army. The average new player probably doesn't care if the army he's thinking about picking up is The Single Best One - but he should be warned when it's Among The Worst. The issue is, you don't want to lose every game for weeks and months - it will sour anyone on an army - and this is what has happened to blueshirtman. 

Consider it a cautionary tale - don't tell new players an army is fine when it's not, you could create some real sad people a few months down the line. When talking to a new prospective player who is interested in BCR I feel it's our duty to give them the good and bad - no secrets no surprises. Now don't be all doom and gloom to drive people away, but there's a middle-ground here that doesn't need to Lie (they're fine!) or be a Drag (GW must hate us!). It's a delicate balance trying to get buffs when your army needs them but also not pipe up so much that people find your pleas annoying. I try to stay between both and it's hard.

 

For instance, BCR cliff notes for an interested new player:

• Best dollar-to-point ratio in the game for start collecting. Excellent value and low model count.
• Awesome hobby potential. High customization options as ogors are fairly interchangeable. Painting-wise a great range of materials; skin, fur, metal, leather, clothes, pelts, bones, horns, flags, etc.
• However, some awful finecast kits that are both expensive and ugly (frost sabers, hunter, and yhetees).
• Their behemoths are fun to play with - especially stonehorns!
• Strong against very new players (first few games of AoS), but after that:
• One of the weakest armies in the game, even struggles against factions that haven't gotten a battletome release yet. Low skill ceiling, few-to-none on options, abilities, spells, prayers, etc. You mostly just run up and roll dice to see if you get there, and with fragile monsters and unreliable, low-damage troops, you generally don't get there.
• Not fun to play against - a common complaint by opponents (yes, even while bcr loses the game you will still hear opponent complain about thundertusk).
• Hipster potential: Get in now while they completely suck - if they ever get a re-write for 2nd edition, you have cred that you aren't some bandwagon flavor of the month bcr player.

 

Edit: Also, there's nothing wrong with wanting a competitive army. It's fun to have lots of options and strong abilities. It's silly to shame someone who wants the tools to succeed. Who would want to spend 6 months of dedicated time and effort making a beautiful army only for it to always lose? I want to save someone else from that experience, not shame someone looking to avoid it.

Edited August 21, 2018 by heywoah_twitch

[Kadeton]

Going in with your eyes open is essential, for sure. Beastclaws are competitively pretty terrible, and I knew that when I made the choice (though this made the news of them winning a major event shortly afterwards quite surprising!) because I'm not focused on being competitive. AoS is the game I play to take a break from competition in other systems. :)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a competitive army (though I personally feel that trying to ensure your first army in a new game is going to be competitive is like trying to run before you can crawl). It just really annoys me when people talk as though competition is the only reason to play, and competitiveness should be the only factor in any player's choice of faction. Every gaming community I've seen where that attitude is common has been unbelievably toxic - I'm fortunate now to have found one where most people just want to have a good time in their games.

[Kyriakin]

I just like ice/snow-themed armies. I played Kislev as a kid, and tend to lean towards Russians in the various historical eras.

Anyway, by the time I actually paint this army, it will probably have gone through a series of additional peaks and troughs, and could end up almost anywhere on the competitive spectrum.

In fact, if they did become the new hotness, I would be bringing a "yawn... not another BCR army!", which would suck even more TBH.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Kyriakin

[kenshin620]

45 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

In fact, if they did become the new hotness, I would be bringing a "yawn... not another BCR army!", which would suck even more TBH.

8th edition Mournfang PTSD! ?

 

Man those were the days. Friggin 8th edition favoring Monstrous Cavalry and Monstrous Infantry like no ones business!

But yea I do agree being top tier isn't the goal, but avoiding being bottom tier should also be the goal! Orcs and Goblins 7th edition for example was not a fun time with the "oh you can't do anything" rule. Sometimes I wish AoS was like Warmachine/Hordes where they had periodic updates for a faction, rather than "heres your book, enjoy it for the next 3 years".

(Unless you're stormcast eternals)

Edited August 22, 2018 by kenshin620

[Kyriakin]

On 8/20/2018 at 9:57 AM, heywoah_twitch said:

This looks like a fun list, though I have a suggestion or two. Definitely go blood vulture instead of harpoon launcher on the huskards, as it more consistently does damage and doesn't require los. People generally use gargant hackers on mournfang, but to be honest their damage sucks so bad that you might as well do whatever you want - if our warscrolls ever get the 2nd edition face-lift they desperately need, the iron fists will certainly reflect mws on unmodified 6s and until then just send them after rendless targets. You play a lot of yhetees which I think is great, they're a sleeper hit in bcr imo. That's a ton of frost sabers.

Thanks. I edited the original list posting to swap out one of the Thundertusks for a Troggoth Hag, and made your suggested weapon swaps.

With the Gryphfeather Charm and the 7+ Troggoth Hag spell, I believe the Thundertusk (50% heal D3W) could end up debuffing the enemy something like -3 to Hit in Melee and -1 to Hit against shooting. Obviously, the Troggoth Hag provides some much-needed Magic protection too.

In addition, Hag/Yhetees are -1 to hit in melee, while the Icebrow Hunter (50% heal D3W or heal 1W) is -1 against shooting due to Look Out Sir! (I like the idea of him being warned of impending danger by some cats)

Plus, of course, you have the Everwinter re-roll, which makes it (I think) a slightly above 50-50 chance of getting the re-roll 1's to save ability. 

That's as tough as I can make them, given that I want a Thundertusk (i.e. not Stonehorn) general for Yhetee battleline. As I said, I think Mournfang are hot garbage, but would like to take a pair of them for their cool aesthetic.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Kyriakin

[Oldmanlee]

Hi all 

taking this to blood and glory in November any feedback on the list ? 

[Pitloze]

I really just want the finecast models to be rotated out. Every BCR player wants it. It really holds the army down but the Start Collecting box keeps it up for now.

BCR getting a dedicated mage or priest (on behemoth if possible) would be amazing. Priests are in the lore. Huskard on Thunderstusks basically are priests. Obvious answer would to re-purpose the Huskard on Thundertusk. But we all rather want new units of course.

[Kyriakin]

Has anyone tried using two or three Firebellies as allies?

I was going to go for a Troggoth Hag, but she is a 380-point, 14-wound (albeit with a great healing mechanic), single-caster, while three Firebellies would essentially be a 360-point, 21-wound, triple-caster. Furthermore, having three models obviously gives you more flexibility and board coverage.

While he couldn't be further from the BCR theme if he tried, I guess you could paint his "fire" to be ice-like.

[EldritchX]

2 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

Has anyone tried using two or three Firebellies as allies?

I was going to go for a Troggoth Hag, but she is a 380-point, 14-wound (albeit with a great healing mechanic), single-caster, while three Firebellies would essentially be a 360-point, 21-wound, triple-caster. Furthermore, having three models obviously gives you more flexibility and board coverage.

While he couldn't be further from the BCR theme if he tried, I guess you could paint his "fire" to be ice-like.

You would need 9 BCR units to bring 3 allied ones.

[Kyriakin]

4 hours ago, EldritchX said:

You would need 9 BCR units to bring 3 allied ones.

My list has 15 Yhettes and 14 Sabres, so making them minimim-sized units should give me more than enough BCR units to hit the allowed ratio.

Actually on that subject, is there any reason not to MSU Yhetees and Sabres (or Mournfang, if you use them)?

I can't see any horde savings, and your specific unit buffing (i.e. Thundertusk healing, etc.) is likely to target the mammoths. All the other buffs I can think of are either army-wide or include everything within a bubble.

Furthermore, you also get the advantage of increase flexibility and are obviously less effected by per-unit debuffs.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Kyriakin

[Salarath]

There’s the issue of drops (making you less likely to go first) and also activation, where attacking with a big unit gets more hits in than a small unit than can be hit off. Both big and small units have + and -

[kenshin620]

20 hours ago, Pitloze said:

I really just want the finecast models to be rotated out. Every BCR player wants it. It really holds the army down but the Start Collecting box keeps it up for now.

The finecast conspiracy thing is always a little weird to me in terms of sales to gameplay.

On one hand theres many examples of finecast models seemingly being bad on purpose so people don't buy them to incentives gw dropping them (Bat Swarms and Fell Bats in LoN), in others, they are a pretty good unit to use (Nurgle's Harbinger of Decay), and in some there are almost necessary (BCR). With GWs all plastic movement, it is so hard to tell which finecast models will seemingly be here forever and which won't.

[Kyriakin]

28 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

The finecast conspiracy thing is always a little weird to me in terms of sales to gameplay.

On one hand theres many examples of finecast models seemingly being bad on purpose so people don't buy them to incentives gw dropping them (Bat Swarms and Fell Bats in LoN), in others, they are a pretty good unit to use (Nurgle's Harbinger of Decay), and in some there are almost necessary (BCR). With GWs all plastic movement, it is so hard to tell which finecast models will seemingly be here forever and which won't.

I wish they would have a six-month period of no new armies, but simply replacing the absolutely worst sculpts from the various factions.

I can't help but think this would be a deal-breaker with regards to people buying into certain factions.

[kenshin620]

2 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

I wish they would have a six-month period of no new armies, but simply replacing the absolutely worst sculpts from the various factions.

I can't help but think this would be a deal-breaker with regards to people buying into certain factions.

"What do you mean you don't like our 6th edition plastic kits? They're great!"

Yea....in 6th edition! ?

[Kyriakin]

4 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

"What do you mean you don't like our 6th edition plastic kits? They're great!"

Yea....in 6th edition! ?

Were Fell Bats ever not awful? lol

I can't imagine miniatures ever being so primitive that they were acceptable.

[EldritchX]

22 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

My list has 15 Yhettes and 14 Sabres, so making them minimim-sized units should give me more than enough BCR units to hit the allowed ratio.

Actually on that subject, is there any reason not to MSU Yhetees and Sabres (or Mournfang, if you use them)?

I can't see any horde savings, and your specific unit buffing (i.e. Thundertusk healing, etc.) is likely to target the mammoths. All the other buffs I can think of are either army-wide or include everything within a bubble.

Furthermore, you also get the advantage of increase flexibility and are obviously less effected by per-unit debuffs.

Apart from drops and combat activations, there are quite a number of good buffs among the Realm spells. Dropping -1 to be hit on 9-12 Yhetees is quite brutal, for example. Also, one of the less obvious advantages of the Skal battalion is that the deep strike happens in the hero phase, allowing for hero phase buffs (including spells). This assumes that you play with Realm rules as recommended and pick up at least 1 allied Wizard, of course - Fungoid Cave Shaman recommended.