AoS 2 - Beastclaw Raiders Discussion

[heywoah_twitch]

5 hours ago, GFulls said:

Thoughts? In theory, Sabres guard hunter, Gruntas and Mournfangs move in, Brutes guard Butcher. Spells do their thing. 

Afraid you can't ally in Brutes, as Ironjawz isn't a beastclaw ally.

3 hours ago, Kadeton said:

I can't see a reason to run anything other than the Ethereal Amulet on a Frostlord, are there any other contenders for useful artefacts? The Thermalrider Cloak is tempting to guarantee the first-turn charge, but the 3+ invulnerable save is really hard to give up.

Mostly agree. Ethereal is great on a frostlord, though I've found it pretty meh on the huskard version (but who runs those now?). Wraithbow is a fun secondary in shyish as well. Dopplerganger Cloak is cute for the activation game, Greenglade Flask is boring and only 1/game, but okay on a thundertusk to try and get a second good shot off if you go first in the second battleround. Ignax's Scales is straight-up better than Battered Talisman, though still just okay. Gargant Bone Dice are funny. Ghyrstrike is of course awesome if you actually want an offensive artefact.

A note on -3 rend vs +1 to hit & wound, the latter is almost always better unless you're in stardrake territory, and the amount of ethereal amulets/hit debuffs I expect to see only lowers rend's stock.

The problem is Lens of Refraction is so ridiculously good that it's hard to justify anything else - if it weren't an AoE I think it would be more of a decision.

[blueshirtman]

I hope that it either gets removed, faction limited to those that can't cast, or something. It is bad enough that it punishs big magic armies, but it gives a real NPE when your playing a low or no magic army, and ally in one caster and suddenly you just wasted your points twice over, as your not only playing a weaker army and spend points on stuff outside of it, but the stuff also does not work right now.

 

I have a small question concering spells like the SCE comet being cast from outside of dispel range. How do BCR players deal with it? You spread your armies, or something. Because the comet did some brutal damge to me last three games. It is impossible to stop, unless my opponent fails to cast it on a +5, and blackets my whole army with mortal wounds.

[heywoah_twitch]

23 minutes ago, blueshirtman said:

I have a small question concering spells like the SCE comet being cast from outside of dispel range. How do BCR players deal with it? You spread your armies, or something. Because the comet did some brutal damge to me last three games. It is impossible to stop, unless my opponent fails to cast it on a +5, and blackets my whole army with mortal wounds.

I don't mind people casting from outside unbind range since our allied wizards have no bonuses to cast anyway. I'm mildly shocked when a butcher unbind actually works to be honest (it's been 3 games since the last success).  As for the SCE endless spell: is it cheating to say that I use the Lens and so everblaze comet does actual zero damage on average?  *

That being said, spells that deal damage I could generally give a ****** less about, it's the ones that give -1 to hit that are the crippler. We already miss too much as it is. Once overwhelming dread or any of the way too many (imo) others lands it's game over.

*translator's note: multiplication/division happens before modifiers, and so stone skeleton pulls through for once! - first halving the mws and then lens subtracts d3. When it plays out on the table I feel like I have a truly powerful little interaction! It's how tzeentch must feel when using any of their units/abilities/spells.

Edited July 20, 2018 by heywoah_twitch

[Solaris]

1 hour ago, heywoah_twitch said:

The problem is Lens of Refraction is so ridiculously good that it's hard to justify anything else - if it weren't an AoE I think it would be more of a decision.

No, I don't think so at all. It's a great artefact, don't get me wrong, but it's not at all hard to justify taking something else. In BCR I think it's the opposite - with artefacts like the Ethereal Amulet and Thermalrider Cloak, I don't see any reason to ever take the Lens. Not only is it nische (works only against magic), but it also forces a tight formation to get the full benefits which is a hindrance in scenario play. It's much better for armies with more models than it is for us.

[blueshirtman]

Man I wish more and more that I could use those items   Nice interaction with the stonys too. I will ask my opponent if he wants to play one time with the magic set relics for a game or too.

[Skabnoze]

7 hours ago, blueshirtman said:

I hope that it either gets removed, faction limited to those that can't cast, or something. It is bad enough that it punishs big magic armies, but it gives a real NPE when your playing a low or no magic army, and ally in one caster and suddenly you just wasted your points twice over, as your not only playing a weaker army and spend points on stuff outside of it, but the stuff also does not work right now.

You can't catch the whole army in the bubble of the Lens.  Just cast your damage spells at something outside of that bubble.

[Richelieu]

21 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

You can't catch the whole army in the bubble of the Lens.  Just cast your damage spells at something outside of that bubble.

To add to this, while I think Lens is quite strong, you take it at great opportunity cost.  Rather than bringing an artifact that helps you execute a plan you are defending against something that will wreck you.  

This means that your opponent has spent probably their only artifact to defend against something that, if you're taking an allied wizard, isn't even your game plan.

 

[blueshirtman]

This makes battalions so crucials imo, having 2 artefacts is a huge difference for non SCE armies. A etheral stony lord and a lense could be a nice combo, specially if magic is allied in to the tsil.

[WindstormSCR]

Here's a list I was considering running, using the Skal battalion to hit backliners given the extra speed it provides sabres, and trying to simultaneously hit like a hammer with everything else but the token wizard (butcher) from a run and charge.

Reason for a butcher over a pair of FCS is durability, and his area heal effect from the cauldron does affect BCR because they carry the OGOR keyword. Aetherquartz brooch could also be a mirrored cuirass if you're worried about the butcher getting sniped, similarly the skull on the icebrow is for a second unbind but could just as easily be tokens or something else.

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Huskard on Stonehorn (340)
- General
- Chaintrap
- Trait: Everwinter's Master
- Artefact: Lens of Refraction
Icebrow Hunter (140)
- Artefact: Bleeding Skull of Dragaar
Butcher (140)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
- Allies
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
Stonehorn Beastriders (320)
2 x Frost Sabres (40)
2 x Frost Sabres (40)
Skal (150)
Jorlbad (160)
Suffocating Gravetide (30)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 140 / 400
Wounds: 94
 

Edited July 21, 2018 by WindstormSCR

[GFulls]

 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kNdaCWWocx2XUHRzyGf1gWShYKu1HFqg/view?usp=drivesdk

 

Thoughts on this list

[heywoah_twitch]

Can't see it friend, I don't have access.

In other news, played a 2k game with braggoth's beasthammer against khorne with archaon, but the local gw only had a 4x4 table free, so it was a ridiculous meatgrinder let me tell you.

List: 

Spoiler

He dropped first and made me take t1. I summoned Cogs and there was a citadel woods in the middle of the board and lots of other terrain, so my mournfang were just full stopped with their big bases from getting anywhere useful. Frostlord charged and killed 5 wrathmongers, I figured ethereal amulet would keep me safe from my own attacks, and it did, I took 2 damage from myself.

Archaon charged frostlord on his turn 1 and instantly rolled 6s to wound thus slaying him outright. Turn 2 I charged archaon with 4 mournfang that had beasthammer +1 to hit and a butcher +1 to hit, so 8 gargant swings at 2s to hit and 3s rr1s to wound and I only hit with 4, then archaon passed all 4 saves, then 16 mount attacks ended up doing 3 damage, but I took 5 mortal wounds to mournfang from his 6s to save all things considered. I double piled-in to do another 3 damage and lost 3 mournfang to battleshock between my 2 units of 4 (crown of domination is good) and that was game over, just about everything useful in my army was dead and he had a healthy archaon plus a thousand points of reavers and heroes left. Major Loss.

Can't take too much away from this game since the board was small and we were both on 2k melee grinder armies. It did mean that his whole army always had every aoe buff and I have no flying so the table definitely favored him, but I should have been more careful with my frostlord. The alternative was most likely losing all 8 mournfang to 80 fully buffed reavers on the charge so I dodn't think I had a good option one way or another. After all, you can't double pile-in if you haven't charged, and they'd be stuck in combat for the game most likely.

Notes:

Terrain is the bane of huge cavalry bases on units of 4+, Archaon hard counters frostlords for breakfast, Khorne fights better than beastclaw on the charge or otherwise. If I had more table-space I could have positioned the gore-gruntas better to participate in combat instead of be stuck behind mournfang, but terrain makes that a challenge in either case. I was lucky to get cogs off (he wasn't on brazen rune and a 7 to cast with no bonuses is basically a coinflip. Once out, they helped him far more than they helped me all game. It def soured me on them tbh). I think the way to play it is not actually moving up at all and trying to counter-charge the opponent. It looks like an alpha strike and feels like an alpha strike, but it can't hang against real melee armies so far (got smashed by ironjawz real bad as well).

Edited July 21, 2018 by heywoah_twitch

[GFulls]

Sorry here

 

BRAGGOTHS YA!
GFulls - Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders
LEADERS
Frostlord on Stonehorn (420)
- Artefact : The Pelt of Charngar 
Icebrow Hunter (140)
- General
- Artefact : The Bleeding Skull of Dragaar 
Butcher (140)
UNITS
2 x Mournfang Pack (160)
-Gargant Hackers
2 x Mournfang Pack (160)
-Gargant Hackers
2 x Frost Sabres (40)
2 x Frost Sabres (40)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
BEHEMOTHS
Thundertusk Beastriders (340)
- Beastclaw Raiders Battleline
BATTALIONS
Braggoth's Beast Hammer (230)
ENDLESS SPELLS
Ravenak's Gnashing Jaws (40)

[heywoah_twitch]

I think upgrading the thundertusk beastriders to a huskard is worth much more than the endless spell, and Realm Artefacts are significantly better than any of our artefacts.

[Reuben Parker]

Thinking of getting into BCR has anyone gone pure cold? think it’s a nice theme and potentially strong. Was thinking something like.

FLoTT, everwinters master, lens of refraction (saw the discussion on this earlier in the thread but I put in nearly all AoS2 armies now)

HoTT

HoTT

HoTT

3 Yheetes

3 Yhetees

6 Yhetees 

weakness would seem to be vs shooting armies as low saves on Yhetees. Would have to hope to grind them with the thundertusks, also opponent can most often pick who goes first as 7 drops. 

[IndigoGirls]

On 7/21/2018 at 7:37 PM, heywoah_twitch said:

List: 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

After seeing your artifact choices I thought to myself, "aren't we limited to one realm artifact regardless of how many we have access to?" Then I flipped open the Malign Sorc book and saw no such rule.

Since learning this I haven't had the time but any other appetizing realms with multiple useful artifacts?

[WindstormSCR]

2 hours ago, IndigoGirls said:

After seeing your artifact choices I thought to myself, "aren't we limited to one realm artifact regardless of how many we have access to?" Then I flipped open the Malign Sorc book and saw no such rule.

Since learning this I haven't had the time but any other appetizing realms with multiple useful artifacts?

Hysh: multiple useful items, mostly defensive

Ulgu: growing into my personal favorite, the spellmirror is really good, and the doppelganger cloak is pure obnoxiousness. Dimensional blade is good for extra offensive rend, and the other blade is a great all-around defender with always-on -1

[Kirisute]

On 7/20/2018 at 12:14 PM, blueshirtman said:

Man I wish more and more that I could use those items   Nice interaction with the stonys too. I will ask my opponent if he wants to play one time with the magic set relics for a game or too.

They are not optional. When building your list you can take a home realm. Now you can use artifacts from this realm.

Taking a realm for the battlefield is optional.

[PlasticCraic]

10 hours ago, IndigoGirls said:

Since learning this I haven't had the time but any other appetizing realms with multiple useful artifacts?

We've just recorded a YouTube video on this subject, and I was coming at it from a Destruction / BCR viewpoint throughout. You might find it interesting:

https://youtu.be/lPIoc1rJneU

There's quite a few that are awesome on Mr Frosty! 

[Mjolnertf]

Good morning nomad brothers, I have a tournament next month at 1250 and this is the list that I tried the other day with a good result vs Stormcast (new chambers). The missions of the tournament will be as follows

Total commitment
Shifting objectives
Places of arcane power

Any help is appreciated, in terms of rivals it will be very varied, where I have more doubts is in the command trait or if I change some Thundertusk for a Stonehorn, thanks.

 

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Frostlord on Thundertusk (420)
- General
- Trait: Famed Hunter 
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet 

Battleline
6 x Mournfang Pack (480)
- Gargant Hackers
Thundertusk Beastriders (340)

Total: 1240 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 15
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 61
 

[IndigoGirls]

Has anyone considered foregoing magic completely? I'm not a fan of missing out on a phase of the game but BCR isn't anything special when it comes to casting... Also is a single huskard on thundertusk that negative? Their burst potential is surely worth something. I admit the unit may not make its points back but I still see it as a valuable asset.

I made this list very quickly but just said ****** it, no magic I want my once (or occasionally more) 6 mortal wound character execute. The list clearly has no anvil or butcher, sadly. I took a 4 pack of mournfang for a unit with bigger punch potential. The 2 pack is to fill out battleline (alternative would be hunter as general and a squad of cats, which might have more uses, but I doubt it). Looking for some thoughts overall for including a thundertusk in a Braggoth's. I saw @heywoah_twitch comments on the unit earlier and largely agree that a single thundertusk is sketchy. That being said, I wonder if others have strong feelings on this controversial unit.

Edited July 23, 2018 by IndigoGirls

[FPC]

So, kinda generic and broad questions, but how possible is it to run BCR either with some Ogor (regular, Irongut, etc.) allies, or as GA: Destruction with a mix of the 2?

Thinking of getting into BCR, but know there's not much variety.  Would be nice if classic WHFB stuff ran well with them.

[PlasticCraic]

So there are two ways:

1) Allies.  In a 2000 point Matched Play game, you can have up to 400 points of BCR in an Gutbusters army, or vice versa.  You also need to keep a ratio of 3:1 of your army units to allied units.

Popular choices are Butchers and Grots as Allies for BCR.  And Mournfang and Stonehorn Beastriders as Allies for Gutbusters.

In both cases you're getting Ogors keyword synergy from the Butchers.

2) GA Destruction.  You would need to fill all your Battleline with Ogors (since they are GA Battleline).  Something like 12 Ogors, 3 Ogors, 3 Ogors for example.  Then go for your life.

Edited July 25, 2018 by PlasticCraic

[Davros]

If you want to add variaty to Beastclaws, you need to look at the Beasthammer or go down the path @PlasticCraic is talking.

When you go into mixed destruction path, i like to add a unit gitmob grot battleline with the normal ogors, gives lots of board control that beastclaws sometimes lack.

 

I do find you can get a decent mix of units if you run an iceborn hunter as your general, makes 40 point frost sabres battleline and then easy to fit in more allies because of the new 1in4 rule.

[Slaanesh]

How bad (or good) would this army be, i want a list that has few models and not so many different ones but still can win.

Allegiance: Destruction
Frostlord on Stonehorn (420)
Frostlord on Stonehorn (420)
Icebrow Hunter (140)
Icebrow Hunter (140)
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
4 x Frost Sabres (80)
4 x Frost Sabres (80)
4 x Frost Sabres (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 112
 

[Skabnoze]

@Slaanesh how did you manage to sneak out of the aelf soul-milking chamber?  Tyrion and Teclis are going to be really pissed if they find you missing.

And stop trying to corrupt our Beastclaw Friends - they have enough problems and don't need you adding any of your own.  Don't you have some Seeker forces to go meet up with anyways?