AoS 2 - Beastclaw Raiders Discussion

[heywoah_twitch]

16 minutes ago, James S said:

@heywoah_twitch, nice write up man. As hard as it is to stomach for most of us, BCR are just in a bad place right now. Which really sucks because I was building an army before the coming of 2.0. With the plethora of changes, I feel like Beastclaw are even worse off. Relegated to Friday Night Fluff at the local gaming store. Such a pity too, because glorious monster cavalry is awesome.

looking forward to watching your next cast.

Your wish is my command, I uploaded the new episode this morning!

www.youtube.com/c/HeyWoahTwitch

Also, on magic and command points:

If you are an army that needs to ally in wizards you are in a bad place. If your wizards don't have good warscroll spells (like us) you are in a bad place.

Emerald Lifeswarm is overpriced but I've gotten some d3s out of it from lucky butcher straight rolls to cast which is nice, though against any actual magic army your endless spells are mostly wasted points. Geminids are good, but the blowback is too dangerous. If we get -1 to hit we just lose.

Command Points system benefits people with good command abilities which we really, really don't have. I use them on run rolls and stuff, you use them to give half of your army +1 attack per weapon they hold 3 times or +6" spell range for all death wizards or attack during hero phase, etc etc. um...

Edited July 4, 2018 by heywoah_twitch

[PlasticCraic]

@heywoah_twitch excellent post!  Thanks for doing that.  

And agreed on the "bite your tongue" moment, so many things I want to say but won't!

It's such a shame they jacked up the Batallions.  It's hard not to see it as a way of keeping BCR down.  Thing is, pure BCR have never been top tier anyway - it was always in Mixed Destro that they did really well.  A bit of leeway on the Batallions could have gone some way to giving BCR a lift, without making individual units obnoxiously strong in Mixed lists.

How are you playing at the moment?  Are you using everything (Realm artefacts from your home Realm, spells from the Realm you (likely) roll for, Endless Spells?

Out of the above, my gut feel is that Endless Spells are here to stay and will be allowed in every tournament pack, your home Realm is very likely to be a thing at most / all tournaments, and the Realm your battle takes place in is still likely to be a thing, but the least likely of the above (I could see some tournaments disallowing it).

[PlasticCraic]

12 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

Your wish is my command, I uploaded the new episode this morning!

www.youtube.com/c/HeyWoahTwitch

 

Sweeeeet!  I'll get onto that at lunchtime.

[heywoah_twitch]

19 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

How are you playing at the moment?  Are you using everything (Realm artefacts from your home Realm, spells from the Realm you (likely) roll for, Endless Spells?

We're playing what we imagine tournaments will do, namely: Realm Artefacts and Endless Spells. No spell lores and no realm battlefield rules (since they have a very high chance of greatly advantaging one player over another for a whole game based on a d6 when the battle starts).

I can def see tournaments doing a "round 1 is this realm, round 2 is that realm" thing though.

This would push listbuilders towards more balanced armies, and nail-in-the-coffin force everyone into wizards - and if you don't have good ones then GG thanks for playing.

Edited July 4, 2018 by heywoah_twitch

[PlasticCraic]

Yep, they could also slow things down a fair bit at the start of the game.

[Richelieu]

6 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

We're playing what we imagine tournaments will do, namely: Realm Artefacts and Endless Spells. No spell lores and no realm battlefield rules (since they have a very high chance of greatly advantaging one player over another for a whole game based on a d6 when the battle starts).

I can def see tournaments doing a "round 1 is this realm, round 2 is that realm" thing though.

This would push listbuilders towards more balanced armies, and nail-in-the-coffin force everyone into wizards - and if you don't have good ones then GG thanks for playing.

Our local tournament scene is leaning towards incorporating realm rules and lores.  I've played with the Hyish rules and they enhanced the game (the command ability was especially flavorful, as well as useful).  Hyish has some of the less extreme rules though so I'll reserve overall judgment.  

[svnvaldez]

6 hours ago, Richelieu said:

Our local tournament scene is leaning towards incorporating realm rules and lores.  I've played with the Hyish rules and they enhanced the game (the command ability was especially flavorful, as well as useful).  Hyish has some of the less extreme rules though so I'll reserve overall judgment.  

I’d highly recommend incorporating them. I liked them when I played with them. Out of the book if  2 players do not agree on a realm it’s a roll off and then pick (50% chance to dictate realm), which I do not like (wish it just said if no agreement then randomize or no realm is used) but that’s an easy FAQ fix.

If they turn out to be awful I’m hopeful gw will fix it.

If they are awful and gw drops the ball then we as players can follow the standard set by B&G, Blackout, Facehammer, and Heat 1. 6nations as already released its pack and realm rules are not in play.

IMO the worst thing that could happen is having countless packs that are all drastically different in what the standard is.

Edited July 5, 2018 by svnvaldez

[Skabnoze]

4 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Yep, they could also slow things down a fair bit at the start of the game.

I’m pretty sure a decently written events pack with predetermined and announced realms for each round would not slow down the games at all.  Players would be able to prepare and plan for it.

Even the realm of Ghur seems like it could be handled well by a tourney organizer.  The easiest thing I can think of would be to print out a specific monster picture on a card-stock base and have the players use those during the game.  That way the monster both sides get is equal and predecided and it is cheap & easy for TOs.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Skabnoze

[svnvaldez]

2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

realm of Ghur

I have no idea why that one made it into the rules. For events that play straight from the book I’ll be showing up with a  Magma dragon to start 9inchs from the other guys army... I hope my opponents owns a big and expensive monster as well or that will be a very one sided game. Worst part is if you lose the roll off you can’t stop it.

That is by far my least favorite realm rule, at least spells you have to cast and can be unbound and realmscape is a chart to roll on so it’s hard to build a plan around them.

Edited July 5, 2018 by svnvaldez

[PlasticCraic]

2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

I’m pretty sure a decently written events pack with predetermined and announced realms for each round would not slow down the games at all.  Players would be able to prepare and plan for it.

Even the realm of Ghur seems like it could be handled well by a tourney organizer.  The easiest thing I can think of would be to print out a specific monster picture on a card-stock base and have the players use those during the game.  That way the monster both sides get is equal and predecided and it is cheap & easy for TOs.

Sorry @Skabnoze but I really don't think that will fly here in Australia.  People have had Stardrakes removed from the table at CanCon for not being fully painted so I can't see the community settling for gaming tokens.  If Realms are a thing, I think people will be expected to bring proper, fully painted, official GW or FW models here.  

They might actually be tricky to place on the 18" deployment Battleplans - No Man's Land is automatically out of the question if you're on the deployment line.  Could be fun to space out 180 Grots so that both have to be set up in your opponent's deployment zone.

[Skabnoze]

@PlasticCraic @svnvaldez - I hear what you guys are saying.  Maybe I did not express those thoughts clear enough.

I do not at all disagree that the Ghur Realm abilities are probably very poor for a tournament if taken as-is.  However, I guess my point is more that a large Tournament is effectively an event with a predetermined set of house-rules.  That is exactly what tournament packs are - event house rules.  Some events have more and some have less.

What I was trying to express is that even Ghur, which is easily the craziest set of realm rules, can be included and managed by a TO without too much effort.  The token thing I mentioned was simply an idea about how a TO could cheaply and easily implement it.  They pick preset monsters for both sides (lets say a Giant) and then they provide those monsters on the table.  Having the TO buy a bunch of monsters can be expensive, and for a single game it would seem fine to me if they treated it like a scenario effect and just made a template to handle it for that one round.  That is just one idea and I understand that not everyone would like a template.  But it would functionally work, be cheap, solve most issues with that realm, and probably still be fun.

Another idea would be to announce that one of the rounds for the tournament will be in Ghur in the event pack, put a points cap on the monster allowed, and then require players to bring a model.  So for example, announce it ahead of time and state that people need to include the monster on their army sheet and it can be any monster with a value or 300 points or under.  You can fudge the value up or down to get something that most armies can field so that it is easier for people to fit with their collections.  But then people know about this ahead of time and they can plan for it.  That is another easy way to do it.  If anyone does not have a monster then that is their fault at that point as it was announced ahead of time.

My point is that even the craziest set of realm rules has a number of simple ways that TOs can still include it while curbing the abuse and solving some of the logistical issues.

[Schauer]

Are there any battalions worth using for their point costs?

Newer player here who really like the concept of BCR, but personally I only liked Jorl and with the increase in points Im not sure if I want to include it going forward.

I notice it doesnt get discussed as much as in earlier editions of AOS but can grots still be helpful allies to use with beastclaw or is giving those points to using shamans/butchers a better idea to go with.

 

[James S]

On 7/5/2018 at 12:13 PM, Skabnoze said:

@PlasticCraic @svnvaldez - I hear what you guys are saying.  Maybe I did not express those thoughts clear enough.

I do not at all disagree that the Ghur Realm abilities are probably very poor for a tournament if taken as-is.  However, I guess my point is more that a large Tournament is effectively an event with a predetermined set of house-rules.  That is exactly what tournament packs are - event house rules.  Some events have more and some have less.

What I was trying to express is that even Ghur, which is easily the craziest set of realm rules, can be included and managed by a TO without too much effort.  The token thing I mentioned was simply an idea about how a TO could cheaply and easily implement it.  They pick preset monsters for both sides (lets say a Giant) and then they provide those monsters on the table.  Having the TO buy a bunch of monsters can be expensive, and for a single game it would seem fine to me if they treated it like a scenario effect and just made a template to handle it for that one round.  That is just one idea and I understand that not everyone would like a template.  But it would functionally work, be cheap, solve most issues with that realm, and probably still be fun.

Another idea would be to announce that one of the rounds for the tournament will be in Ghur in the event pack, put a points cap on the monster allowed, and then require players to bring a model.  So for example, announce it ahead of time and state that people need to include the monster on their army sheet and it can be any monster with a value or 300 points or under.  You can fudge the value up or down to get something that most armies can field so that it is easier for people to fit with their collections.  But then people know about this ahead of time and they can plan for it.  That is another easy way to do it.  If anyone does not have a monster then that is their fault at that point as it was announced ahead of time.

My point is that even the craziest set of realm rules has a number of simple ways that TOs can still include it while curbing the abuse and solving some of the logistical issues.

Here in San Antonio we throwing around the idea of using little piñatas for the monsters. 

[Skabnoze]

10 hours ago, James S said:

Here in San Antonio we throwing around the idea of using little piñatas for the monsters. 

Do you get to smash them and get candy when you kill them?

[blueshirtman]

So guys, any success with any lists. I tried to play around with stonehorns, but they die just like thundertusks die back in 1st edition. Right now my main struggle is the MW, and people still playing horde. Some armies got smaller, but not that much. Plus suddenly I am facing magic a lot more often then I did before. I thought that maybe the realm stuff would fix stuff, but saddly people don't want to use any of the relics or realm rules, only the spells are accepted.

[Skabnoze]

Have you tried using the Lens of Refraction magic item to reduce incoming spell damage?  I would think that Beastclaws should be able to use that bubble to good effect early on in the game since it is a fairly low-count army.

You could also try to ally in a wizard, like a Butcher, and then give them the Emerald Lifeswarm endless spell.  That is not the best endless spell around, but it seems like stacking more healing into Beastclaws would be very useful in the early game to offset damage on your big monsters.

I dunno how effective this stuff would be, but they seem like ideas worth exploring.

[blueshirtman]

Nope, people here don't want to use the relics or realm rules from the spell box, only the big spells with models are accepted here.  I am still thinking about buying any butchers, I worry that maybe in a year or so GW will phase them out or replace with other models, and I don't want to end up with another 3 big models that are based or unusable.  I can't really use the endless spells right now, as I don't have the money to buy the expension, and even if I had the money I would probablly buy  butchers first. It is good to hear though that the swarm works, one of my friends bought the expansion and plays stormcasts told me  it is not worth the points.

[Skabnoze]

28 minutes ago, blueshirtman said:

Nope, people here don't want to use the relics or realm rules from the spell box, only the big spells with models are accepted here.  I am still thinking about buying any butchers, I worry that maybe in a year or so GW will phase them out or replace with other models, and I don't want to end up with another 3 big models that are based or unusable.  I can't really use the endless spells right now, as I don't have the money to buy the expension, and even if I had the money I would probablly buy  butchers first. It is good to hear though that the swarm works, one of my friends bought the expansion and plays stormcasts told me  it is not worth the points.

Why do they not use Realm Relics?  I am almost certain that most major tournaments are going to use those.

The spell that I was talking about, Emerald Lifeswarm, is a "big spell with a model" - all endless spells are.  So it sounds like you could use it where you are at.  If cost is an issue you could try to buy that model from someone who has the main box.  I expect that it is not going to be very popular and most armies won't use it.  Someone will probably part with it. 

Or you could try getting the single model off ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-Age-of-Sigmar-AOS-Malign-Sorcery-Emerald-Lifeswarm-NOS/153092148455?hash=item23a500cce7:g:F6sAAOSwWspbORp-

Just try proxying it first with a suitable base or paper/cardboard cut to the right size and see if it is useful before you go spend the cash.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Skabnoze

[blueshirtman]

2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

Why do they not use Realm Relics?  I am almost certain that most major tournaments are going to use those.

Because they would have to ok, the realm spells then and both the relics and the spells are considered too OP here. And it is not like I disagree with them, I played vs banishment a few times, and it is not fun.

 

I will ask around, people are generally very anti proxy around my store. And the box divide stuff sells for some crazy money, I saw someone 2/3 of the box cost, in our currency, just for the mirrors , the cogs and the balls thingy. when you want something people automaticly hike up the price here. Plus we only got 10 of those sets here, so it is not like there are many spare around.

[PlasticCraic]

30 minutes ago, blueshirtman said:

Because they would have to ok, the realm spells then and both the relics and the spells are considered too OP here. And it is not like I disagree with them, I played vs banishment a few times, and it is not fun.

Not sure about that...they come from slightly different parts of the game.  Artefacts come from choosing your home Realm.  Access to the spell lore (and Realmscape features) come from what Realm you are playing in.  So it would be quite conceivable to rule for a tournament that everyone gets to choose a "home" Realm where they are from (and therefore accesses Artefacts).  But you do not play in a Realm (so no Spells).  In fact I think that will quite a common approach.

[Davros]

3 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Not sure about that...they come from slightly different parts of the game.  Artefacts come from choosing your home Realm.  Access to the spell lore (and Realmscape features) come from what Realm you are playing in.  So it would be quite conceivable to rule for a tournament that everyone gets to choose a "home" Realm where they are from (and therefore accesses Artefacts).  But you do not play in a Realm (so no Spells).  In fact I think that will quite a common approach.

One tornament i am looking at going to have done this, allowed the artifacts, but said battles aren't going to take place in a realm so no spells or traits.

 

Personally not too worried about it. But having access to the extra spells makes the game more dynimic in my opinion. 

[blueshirtman]

I don't really play at tournaments, tried a few times, but it felt like am paying to lose 6 games and for prizes for other people. People in non tournament games don't want to use the artefacts, and the realm spells drop decision was a whole store decision. Most people don't care what cool stuff the realm stuff has, when is also brings the bad stuff. Plus GW did a their usual stuff they do when new editions comes, store owner ordered 10 magic expansions and 20 starters and 20 GH. Got 10 starters, 5 GH and 5 magic expansions. And we have 30+people playing the game here.

I hope GW brings out 2-3 battletomes soon, and when they are done with the tomes they designed before people got to play 2ed, they will write an Ogor/BCR one.

The funny thing was, that at my store the initial reaction was that BCR were going to dominate everything, there was a ton of salt about cheaper stones and tusks being thrown around. But then I showed people that at 2k points the points drop don't allow me to run the battalion I wanted to run, or get a butcher, and suddenly or the kill the BCR players whinning stoped.  It was bizzar to watch, because people within 2 weeks went from BCR too OP, to BCR still the worse battletome in game. Would be even more fun, if I wasn't a BCR player myself.

[Turragor]

23 minutes ago, blueshirtman said:

I don't really play at tournaments, tried a few times, but it felt like am paying to lose 6 games and for prizes for other people. People in non tournament games don't want to use the artefacts, and the realm spells drop decision was a whole store decision. Most people don't care what cool stuff the realm stuff has, when is also brings the bad stuff. Plus GW did a their usual stuff they do when new editions comes, store owner ordered 10 magic expansions and 20 starters and 20 GH. Got 10 starters, 5 GH and 5 magic expansions. And we have 30+people playing the game here.

I hope GW brings out 2-3 battletomes soon, and when they are done with the tomes they designed before people got to play 2ed, they will write an Ogor/BCR one.

The funny thing was, that at my store the initial reaction was that BCR were going to dominate everything, there was a ton of salt about cheaper stones and tusks being thrown around. But then I showed people that at 2k points the points drop don't allow me to run the battalion I wanted to run, or get a butcher, and suddenly or the kill the BCR players whinning stoped.  It was bizzar to watch, because people within 2 weeks went from BCR too OP, to BCR still the worse battletome in game. Would be even more fun, if I wasn't a BCR player myself.

Every post you make dude, your store lies at the heart of your issues like a rotten apple in a bunch of lovely fruit!

[heywoah_twitch]

Going to try bringing this list to GenCon in a few weeks (if I can finish painting some new models):

Spoiler

 

Definitely don't expect to do very well because, well, beastclaw, but I hope to have fun in any case. Apologies for the most bandwagon artefact choice.

[Skabnoze]

7 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

Going to try bringing this list to GenCon in a few weeks (if I can finish painting some new models):

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Definitely don't expect to do very well because, well, beastclaw, but I hope to have fun in any case. Apologies for the most bandwagon artefact choice.

Bandwagon or not, I think Beastclaw makes a better argument than most for using that artifact.  It makes perfect sense to me.