AoS 2 - Beastclaw Raiders Discussion

[heywoah_twitch]

3 minutes ago, svnvaldez said:

I played 3 games yesterday with 3x frostlords... Those guys are my favorite unit in the game to play with. So fast.

No doubt. I put some games in on the "stonehorn beastriders in every battleline slot" plan and the results were very fun.

[PlasticCraic]

50 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

So which dream is more pure; 4x frostlords or 5x shaman?

Why choose, when you can have both? ?

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders

Leaders
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Frostlord on Stonehorn (420)

Battleline
Stonehorn Beastriders (320)
Stonehorn Beastriders (320)
Stonehorn Beastriders (320)

Total: 1780 / 2000
 

OK so technically it's not 4x Frostlords, but it is 4x Stonehorns!  And they do most of the damage anyway.

[heywoah_twitch]

5 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Why choose, when you can have both? ?

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders

Leaders
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Frostlord on Stonehorn (420)

Battleline
Stonehorn Beastriders (320)
Stonehorn Beastriders (320)
Stonehorn Beastriders (320)

Total: 1780 / 2000
 

OK so technically it's not 4x Frostlords, but it is 4x Stonehorns!  And they do most of the damage anyway.

hahaha now you're thinking with portals ?

wait. oh god... i-is this actually good? ?

Edited July 3, 2018 by heywoah_twitch

[gnaleinad]

Not possible. Moonclan can't be your allies.

41 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Why choose, when you can have both? ?

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders

Leaders
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Frostlord on Stonehorn (420)

Battleline
Stonehorn Beastriders (320)
Stonehorn Beastriders (320)
Stonehorn Beastriders (320)

Total: 1780 / 2000
 

OK so technically it's not 4x Frostlords, but it is 4x Stonehorns!  And they do most of the damage anyway.

 

[PlasticCraic]

50 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

hahaha now you're thinking with portals ?

wait. oh god... i-is this actually good? ?

Haha exactly...a little coven of the dudes, hunched around a portal and flinging spells through.  A heap of rerollable casts turn 1, and one of the wee men is up on a BWV pushing his AOE spell through the Portal.

The 4x Stonehorns smash into the enemy's lines, while magic decimates the good stuff in behind.

Would have a LOT of obvious drawbacks, but once you start to compromise, you quickly lose the sheer WTF factor ?

For fun - what would you spend the 220 points on? 

I'm thinking:

- Spell Portal (core requirement)

- BWV (wizard up there puts his own spell through - giving it Oprahs in a 6+D6" bubble)

- Pendulum (push through the Portal and whack D6 mortals straight onto a key unit - set up sideways to it can only ever scythe across their lines)

- Geminids (18" setup range so you don't actually need this one to end its move near the Portals if it's crowded back there)

- Burning Head (D3 mortals and you might even be able to charge into the reroll hits range)

Will we be making Turn 1 charges without the Cogs though?

If Realm spells become a thing, then they are going through the Portal too - but really you could achieve all this with 3 Shaman so you could use the remaining 160 - 200 points for something more sensible. Like 2x 20 Grots for a screen / running onto objectives.

Edited July 3, 2018 by PlasticCraic

[PlasticCraic]

1 minute ago, gnaleinad said:

Not possible. Moonclan can't be your allies.

 

Check out the Malign Portents FAQ:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

The Shaman is not an Ally, but behaves like one in every way (can be included in any Destruction army and takes up Allies points).

[PlasticCraic]

So here is the refined version - a bit less "Doing it because we can". 

But still very "Doing it because we can":

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders

Leaders

Huskard on Stonehorn (340)

- General

- Blood Vulture

- Trait: Everwinter's Master

- Artefact: The Pelt of Charngar

Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)

Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)

Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)

Battleline

Stonehorn Beastriders (320)

Stonehorn Beastriders (320)

Stonehorn Beastriders (320)

Units

20 x Grots (100)

20 x Grots (100)

Endless Spells

Aethervoid Pendulum (40)

The Burning Head (40)

Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Umbral Spellportal (60)

Balewind Vortex (40)

Quicksilver Swords (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000

6 Rerollable spells (+ a 7th from the BWV), cast from the backline out of 30" range!

[Gemzo]

6 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders

Leaders

Huskard on Stonehorn (340)

Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)

Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)

Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)

Battleline

Stonehorn Beastriders (320)

Stonehorn Beastriders (320)

Stonehorn Beastriders (320)

Units

20 x Grots (100)

20 x Grots (100)

6 Rerollable spells (+ a 7th from the BWV), cast from the backline out of 30" range!

In the new matched play rules, it seems like it both limits the number of allied points (400) and the proportion on units (25%).  With that, I don't think the above lists would be valid in Matched play, since more than 25% of their units are allies.  I'd be happy to be wrong about it, since I was planning on doing 2 units of grots and 2 shamans - but I can't fit 12 BCR units in to make that legal.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Gemzo
brevity

[heywoah_twitch]

It right now technically works, because the fungoid cave shaman is not an ally, he's a special herald with a special rule. If it survives the 2-week faq then fungoids and endless spells could actually be a thing. If not, then I still like 2x butcher because hitting on 4s is simply not okay.

[gnaleinad]

50 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

It right now technically works, because the fungoid cave shaman is not an ally, he's a special herald with a special rule. If it survives the 2-week faq then fungoids and endless spells could actually be a thing. If not, then I still like 2x butcher because hitting on 4s is simply not okay.

I checked and no. Your list is no go for Pitched Battle.

Your army allegiance chosen is Beastclaw Raiders. It is needed for the battleline. The Moonclan Fungoid Cave Shaman doesn't share that allegiance. The chosen allegiance need to be destruction.

Moonclan isn't a valid choice for allies for an Beastclaw Raiders army.

A Beastclaw Raiders allegiance army have very few allies choice. No Ironjawz, Gitmob, Greenskinz, Bonesplitterz or Spiderfang. Only Aleguzzler Gargants, Troggoths, Firebellies and Gutbusters.

Edited July 3, 2018 by gnaleinad
Beastclaw Raiders has few allies

[heywoah_twitch]

So this is the faq on malign portents and they don't count against allegiance. Their point cost counts against allies, but no mention of the 1-per-4 rule and they are not called an ally - they just follow some of the rules for allies (but not all). This is what we keep referring to. It's honestly 90% for fun and so wasn't really worth getting this far into but I passed it on for a clarification.

It doesn't require you to choose the GA allegiance, only that you share that keyword, which you do.

Edited July 3, 2018 by heywoah_twitch

[gnaleinad]

In order to use Stornhorns/Thundertusks as battleline your army must be a Beastclaw Raiders allegiance army.

Yes it is also a destruction grand alliance army. 

So yes according to the ruling you can have the Fungoid Cave Shaman. But the numbers is the first issue. Because it is considered an allied unit.

Why?

The Fungoid Cave Shaman does not share the same keyword as the army's allegiance, which is Beastclaw Raiders, so it's an unit using allied points.

So how is an unit using allied points not an allied unit? 

It is an allied unit. Nothing in the FAQ states that a Fungoid Cave Shaman is not an allied unit just because it shares the same grand alliance. It just say that it will not affect the army's allegiance choice.

And so the 1 is to 4 ratio stands.

And looking even deeper since it is considered an allied unit and checking the list of allied choice, you realize you are not supposed to have the unit as an allied unit. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by gnaleinad

[Sieggi858]

5 hours ago, gnaleinad said:

In order to use Stornhorns/Thundertusks as battleline your army must be a Beastclaw Raiders allegiance army.

Yes it is also a destruction grand alliance army. 

So yes according to the ruling you can have the Fungoid Cave Shaman. But the numbers is the first issue. Because it is considered an allied unit.

Why?

The Fungoid Cave Shaman does not share the same keyword as the army's allegiance, which is Beastclaw Raiders, so it's an unit using allied points.

So how is an unit using allied points not an allied unit? 

It is an allied unit. Nothing in the FAQ states that a Fungoid Cave Shaman is not an allied unit just because it shares the same grand alliance. It just say that it will not affect the army's allegiance choice.

And so the 1 is to 4 ratio stands.

And looking even deeper since it is considered an allied unit and checking the list of allied choice, you realize you are not supposed to have the unit as an allied unit. 

It's called an exception buddy.

GW has explicitly stated that these harbingers can be used in any army of their Grand Alliance and not count as an "ally". You can rules lawyer all you want, but GW made their intention perfectly clear that they wanted you to be able to use  these guys in any army in your GA. BCR and the Shaman both share the "GA Destruction" keyword, so he can be included, but that doesn't mean he has to take the GA destruction allegiance, as he can still take his BCR allegiance without the Shaman getting in the way of things, since GW said they don't count as a traditional "ally".

[Skabnoze]

6 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

So this is the faq on malign portents and they don't count against allegiance. Their point cost counts against allies, but no mention of the 1-per-4 rule and they are not called an ally - they just follow some of the rules for allies (but not all). This is what we keep referring to. It's honestly 90% for fun and so wasn't really worth getting this far into but I passed it on for a clarification.

It doesn't require you to choose the GA allegiance, only that you share that keyword, which you do.

This was an errata wording fail.

I don't think it is going to matter very much, but it appears to me that what they wanted was for the Heralds to count as Allies, but with a specific exception that allows them to be used in any army from that Grand Allegiance.  But instead of writing that they made a very convoluted wording.  Oops.

[PlasticCraic]

7 hours ago, gnaleinad said:

So yes according to the ruling you can have the Fungoid Cave Shaman. But the numbers is the first issue. Because it is considered an allied unit.

Why?

The Fungoid Cave Shaman does not share the same keyword as the army's allegiance, which is Beastclaw Raiders, so it's an unit using allied points.

So how is an unit using allied points not an allied unit? 

It is an allied unit. Nothing in the FAQ states that a Fungoid Cave Shaman is not an allied unit just because it shares the same grand alliance. It just say that it will not affect the army's allegiance choice.

Well that's where I disagree.  Because you are literally just making stuff up.  The erratum states that it is using Allied points - it does not state that it is an Allied unit.  That is a jump you have made yourself, and is not based on anything in the actual rules.  

It really doesn't matter - it's just a daft list for a bit of fun.

But I think that if you read it with an open mind you will see what we are saying.

Edited July 3, 2018 by PlasticCraic

[PlasticCraic]

@heywoah_twitch you've played a few games under AOS 2.0 - how are you finding BCR so far?

[heywoah_twitch]

4 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

@heywoah_twitch you've played a few games under AOS 2.0 - how are you finding BCR so far?

this is what I'm talking about for my next show ? but I'll come back with an edit here

[PlasticCraic]

 

31 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

this is what I'm talking about for my next show ? but I'll come back with an edit here

Awesome, I look forward to it!

[gnaleinad]

3 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

This was an errata wording fail.

I don't think it is going to matter very much, but it appears to me that what they wanted was for the Heralds to count as Allies, but with a specific exception that allows them to be used in any army from that Grand Allegiance.  But instead of writing that they made a very convoluted wording.  Oops.

Thanks @Skabnoze 

You saw what many failed to see.

1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

Well that's where I disagree.  Because you are literally just making stuff up.  The erratum states that it is using Allied points - it does not state that it is an Allied unit.  That is a jump you have made yourself, and is not based on anything in the actual rules.  

It really doesn't matter - it's just a daft list for a bit of fun.

But I think that if you read it with an open mind you will see what we are saying.

Fun list maybe but not valid in terms of numbers of allied units allowed. 

You were saying that it is a valid list for Pitched Battle like it's official. 

Technically you were the one making stuff up, by defending your list with the malign portent FAQ. I just found what you concluded illogical. Like how can units purchased with allied points not considered allied units? And so you consider them.. Special units? How absurd.

We can all see that your intention was to have many Wizards for a low cost, casting spells of Doom, and that you thought that you found a loophole to do so.

If you were saying that this is just a nonsense list for a bit of fun at the start it wouldn't had mattered. But you were talking like you were sure that you were right. So I personally think that it matters. 

I believe that the new 1:4 allies to your army's unit ratio is to prevent people from making such a list. 

I personally do not think that the 1:4 ratio can be bypassed with this.

[PlasticCraic]

18 minutes ago, gnaleinad said:

Thanks @Skabnoze 

You saw what many failed to see.

Fun list maybe but not valid in terms of numbers of allied units allowed. 

You were saying that it is a valid list for Pitched Battle like it's official. 

Technically you were the one making stuff up, by defending your list with the malign portent FAQ. I just found what you concluded illogical. Like how can units purchased with allied points not considered allied units? And so you consider them.. Special units? How absurd.

We can all see that your intention was to have many Wizards for a low cost, casting spells of Doom, and that you thought that you found a loophole to do so.

If you were saying that this is just a nonsense list for a bit of fun at the start it wouldn't had mattered. But you were talking like you were sure that you were right. So I personally think that it matters. 

I believe that the new 1:4 allies to your army's unit ratio is to prevent people from making such a list. 

I personally do not think that the 1:4 ratio can be bypassed with this.

I'm really not making stuff up.  I'm saying that it would be Matched Play legal based on the wording of the Malign Portents FAQ.  Nothing you have written gives evidence to the contrary.  You have decided that because it uses Allies points, it must be an Ally.  Which is not what it says.

You can keep saying it does if you want, but unless  you have any actual rules to cite I think it's time to move on.

[heywoah_twitch]

1 hour ago, gnaleinad said:

Fun list maybe but not valid in terms of numbers of allied units allowed. 

You were saying that it is a valid list for Pitched Battle like it's official. 

We literally came up with this list in this very thread while laughing about it, so yes it is for fun.

By RAW it is official, because that's what the words say. You claim that it's not RAI, and maybe it's not, so we need an faq like plastic and I have both been very up front about saying since the beginning (in almost every post about it even). I don't know why you're worked up.

Edited July 4, 2018 by heywoah_twitch

[gnaleinad]

Woah, take a chill pill guys. Luckily I do know what I was talking about.

It's really sad that no one here bothers to clarify with their General Handbook on what's defined as an allied unit.

Now we work backwards... Does the Moonclan Fungoid Cave Shaman count toward the  maximum number of Heroes you can have? Yes. Did you pay for the cost of the Fungoid Cave Shaman using your allied unit points? Yes.

So is the Fungoid Cave Shaman an allied unit? Hmm. Is it really difficult?

Your eyes is seeing what your hearts wants to see.

So am I making anything up? Or are the people here wishing for winning formula? 

Yet anyone with a sense of fair play will smell the cheese. Indeed are they are cheap Wizards but the Moonclan Fungoid Cave Shaman has no business with the Beastclaw Raiders, even their command ability doesn't even affect them. 

Will the Ogor let a creature they normally use as snack or food order them around? Hell no.

Let's end this silly discussion, because the proof has been provided.

Time to move to other more important topics.

 

Edited July 4, 2018 by gnaleinad

[Sieggi858]

11 hours ago, gnaleinad said:

Woah, take a chill pill guys. Luckily I do know what I was talking about.

It's really sad that no one here bothers to clarify with their General Handbook on what's defined as an allied unit.

Now we work backwards... Does the Moonclan Fungoid Cave Shaman count toward the  maximum number of Heroes you can have? Yes. Did you pay for the cost of the Fungoid Cave Shaman using your allied unit points? Yes.

So is the Fungoid Cave Shaman an allied unit? Hmm. Is it really difficult?

Your eyes is seeing what your hearts wants to see.

So am I making anything up? Or are the people here wishing for winning formula? 

Yet anyone with a sense of fair play will smell the cheese. Indeed are they are cheap Wizards but the Moonclan Fungoid Cave Shaman has no business with the Beastclaw Raiders, even their command ability doesn't even affect them. 

Will the Ogor let a creature they normally use as snack or food order them around? Hell no.

Let's end this silly discussion, because the proof has been provided.

Time to move to other more important topics.

 

Yeaaahhh, except I’m pretty sure this is from GHB2017 and the Malign Portents rule’s over-rule it. You’re so set on being right I’m betting you never bothered to read the actual Malign Portents book to check the rulings there

[heywoah_twitch]

4 hours ago, Sieggi858 said:

Yeaaahhh, except I’m pretty sure this is from GHB2017 and the Malign Portents rule’s over-rule it. You’re so set on being right I’m betting you never bothered to read the actual Malign Portents book to check the rulings there

Let's not send the negative energy back and let this rest, our beloved let's chat is like 50% fungoid shaman rules and that's a shame. I even resisted getting the last word and so if someone as big mouthed as me can do it it's time to move on.

23 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

@heywoah_twitch you've played a few games under AOS 2.0 - how are you finding BCR so far?

I'm finding, so far anyway, (it's still early, haven't played against lots of armies etc), some random thoughts:

Mournfang are simply not worth playing. In 2s, in 4s, doesn't matter. If they are required for a battalion then consider it a pure tax, and you're lighting points on fire when you pay it.

Yhetees are the best battleline compromise between cheap and good. The 6" pile in tricks are probably more fun than good, but they are real fun. 4" activation trick, run and pile-in trick, retreat and pile-in trick, etc. The way to play beastclaw like an actual army instead of forced monster mash is probably with lots of these.

Stonehorn beastriders are a "good" battleline option again, though I'm hesitant to play them without butcher because they miss miss miss. I think I'd rather run 2 or 3 of them instead of do the old hunter+cats thing to satisfy battleline for monstermash.

370 for Icebrow Hunter+2x Sabers+Skal (which incl. 1 CP+artefact) is staggeringly overpriced. When I think about what other armies (that are strictly superior to us already) have to pay for similar and better effects for this amount I almost have an out of body experience and meet the spirits of my ancestors, who even as ancient ghosts are shocked and saddened. Pumping more cats in to try and salvage some use out of the points you've already spent feels like the perfect example of the sunk-cost fallacy. 

Frostlords who are holding a realm artefact are finally worth 420 points. Ones who aren't feel just as inconsistent as before, and the only way for us to get more artefacts is to literally waste hundreds and hundreds of points. Life is pain. Man I wish they could retreat and charge.

Thundertusks still suck after turn 1. People (at least locally) are not playing with any less ranged than before, it's just more of it is now spells. If you want them to be useful midgame on you have to build the whole army around supporting them, like 4 huskards or giving 2 greenglade flask+wand of resto and a butcher with lifeswarm. Even then they aren't good against horde armies who don't care about wound quality, only quantity. FWI is just 6 normal wounds for 340pts against pestilence. All this and your opponent will whine about how cheesy they are. Man I wish they had changed his warscroll.

Huskard on stonehorn is the big loser of 2nd edition I think. Outside of a eurlbad I just want a beastrider or a frostlord. Basically can't use a weapon artefact, bad save, meh.

Eurlbad and Jorlbad still cost too much. They went up to compensate for CPs and realm arts and stuff, but they failed to take into account we were already wasting about 200 points even qualifying for them in the first place...

Torrbad went up and so we can confirm that someone at GW is a comedian.

Just like before, -1 to hit debuffs are basically nuclear bombs going off in our living room. Your counterplay is hoping your opponent has a stroke before he casts the spell.

 

Realm Artefacts are exciting! Here's some positivity that I'm not known for! The most tempting ones for me are:

Dopplganger Cloak - quasai quicksilver potion except every turn and not once per game.

Greenglade Flask / Wand of Resto - I like these much more than the pelt (which has a 66% chance of healing only 1 wound anyway). 

Ethereal Amulet - sometimes the obvious choice is the best. On a frostlord it makes them as durable as they should be again.

Spell Mirror - speaking of obvious choices...

Gyrestrike - speaking of obvious choices... (about the same damage buff as the -3 rend ones except not turked by amulet and fights back against debuffs)

I think the -3 rend ones are traps, esp considering the popularity of Amulet. 

Wraithbow - a fun 2nd choice after you've chosen amulet in shyish.

Thermalrider Cloak - tempting due to flying getting us out of tarpits and +4 move is huge, but my problem is usually not getting into combat. My problem is usually getting killed and missing all the time, which this doesn't help.

Edited July 4, 2018 by heywoah_twitch

[James S]

@heywoah_twitch, nice write up man. As hard as it is to stomach for most of us, BCR are just in a bad place right now. Which really sucks because I was building an army before the coming of 2.0. With the plethora of changes, I feel like Beastclaw are even worse off. Relegated to Friday Night Fluff at the local gaming store. Such a pity too, because glorious monster cavalry is awesome.

looking forward to watching your next cast.