AoS 2 - Beastclaw Raiders Discussion

[Baron Wastelands]

On 2/17/2019 at 4:38 PM, DestructionFranz said:

Take out the Mournfangs. (They are too much expensive). As you choosed Huskard On Thundertusk to be your general, you can have Yethees as Battleline. (By far better than the Mournfang). 

Instead the 8 mournfang, (640 PT) use 15 Yethees (600 PT). (You can run and charge near Thundertusks and Pile in 6")

Unless you own 8 mournfang and not 15 yhetees 😁

I disagree that yhetees are way better. Yhetees certainly have their place (like in a Torrbad, for example 😉), and have some nice tricks that mournfang don’t, like pile in shenanigans and -1 to hit in melee; but mournfangs have better move, better armour, actually comparable damage output, etc.  In 2s, they don’t do much, admittedly, but in 4s I’ve found them to be much more useful.

[GutZilla]

I'm super excited, I picked up my first start collecting Beastclaw Raiders box yesterday! It looks like a fun box to build. My other army is a  2000 point gang of swamp themed Gutbusters, so I have some cool new options for allying as well. As you can tell, I really like Ogors lol.

I posted a hypothetical 2k list in this thread recently, and modified it ever so slightly based on the comments. My new goal BCR list is:

1x Frostlord on Stonehorn

1x Huskard on Thundertusk w/ blood vulture

4x Mournfang w/ Gargant hackers

4x Mournfang w/ gargant hackers

6x Icefall Yhetees

6x Icefall Yhetees

2x Frost sabres

2x Frost sabres

I think it will give me enough bodies to hopefully contest some objectives, but should still hit pretty damn hard. Will keep the thread updated as I paint up the army!

[Baron Wastelands]

5 hours ago, GutZilla said:

I'm super excited, I picked up my first start collecting Beastclaw Raiders box yesterday! It looks like a fun box to build. My other army is a  2000 point gang of swamp themed Gutbusters, so I have some cool new options for allying as well. As you can tell, I really like Ogors lol.

I posted a hypothetical 2k list in this thread recently, and modified it ever so slightly based on the comments. My new goal BCR list is:

1x Frostlord on Stonehorn

1x Huskard on Thundertusk w/ blood vulture

4x Mournfang w/ Gargant hackers

4x Mournfang w/ gargant hackers

6x Icefall Yhetees

6x Icefall Yhetees

2x Frost sabres

2x Frost sabres

I think it will give me enough bodies to hopefully contest some objectives, but should still hit pretty damn hard. Will keep the thread updated as I paint up the army!

I think that’s a nice balanced list (for BCR anyway!). Looking forward to seeing it take shape.

[GutZilla]

18 hours ago, Baron Wastelands said:

I think that’s a nice balanced list (for BCR anyway!). Looking forward to seeing it take shape.

Thank you! 

I have a question for you guys about yhetee unit size. Since yetis don’t get any specific point reductions or stat bonuses for larger unit sizes, is it better to run them in fast hit squads of 3 instead of 6? Also, I feel like since they can really dictate the order of combat with their pile in rules, it actually makes sense to have smaller units jumping in and out of combat all over the map. 

Thoughts?

[heywoah_twitch]

1 hour ago, GutZilla said:

Thank you! 

I have a question for you guys about yhetee unit size. Since yetis don’t get any specific point reductions or stat bonuses for larger unit sizes, is it better to run them in fast hit squads of 3 instead of 6? Also, I feel like since they can really dictate the order of combat with their pile in rules, it actually makes sense to have smaller units jumping in and out of combat all over the map. 

Thoughts?

3 don't do enough damage to really affect the game unless you get unreasonably lucky. 6 is fine initially, but after suffering some casualties they become as flaccid as 3. Having 12 is too big of a blob to be as mobile as they like to be (run, pile in. next turn retreat around unit, pile in elsewhere, etc).

9 is the sweet spot, though a tad big to start, with a 6+ save they'll come down in size

On 2/18/2019 at 1:53 PM, Baron Wastelands said:

I disagree that yhetees are way better. Yhetees certainly have their place (like in a Torrbad, for example 😉), and have some nice tricks that mournfang don’t, like pile in shenanigans and -1 to hit in melee; but mournfangs have better move, better armour, actually comparable damage output, etc.  In 2s, they don’t do much, admittedly, but in 4s I’ve found them to be much more useful.

120 points of yhetees do about the same damage as 160pts of mournfang (Y: 2-6 vs M: 2-7, on the charge: Y: 2-8 vs M: 3-9 vs armor 4) so actually yhetees out-perform mournfang per point spent. For units of 4 mournfang, on the charge they'll do ~2 more damage than yhetees if all four can get within 1" for mw rolls. If not charging the 4 mournfang will do 30% less damage than their points in yhetees. You are correct that mournfang in 2s are useless though. At least 4 have the chance for you to get lucky and do something.

Both units have a move of 9". Mournfang get 3d6 drop lowest to charge, while yhetees can run&charge if within 16" of a thundertusk and can run&pile-in 6" and can retreat&run&pile-in to un-stick themselves. Run rolls can be turned into 6s for a command point so this is a bigger deal than it might seem. They are in fact considerably more mobile than mournfang (unless you're paying another few hundred points for a jorlbad plus taxes, which just worsens the points ratio).

Mournfang have a 4+ save which is much better than yhetees 6+ of course, but -1 to hit shuts off many procs, and yhetees essentially have "strike first" power due to piling in from outside 3" and so in many situations they are better defensively as well. Also, consider the number of wounds per point spent as defense as well, since it is. Especially vs mortal wounds. (Y: 10pts/wound vs M: 13.3pts/wound)

Yhetees are also twice as good as mournfang at holding objectives due to numbers (you get 8 yhetees for every 4 mournfang).

Really they are either straight better or situationally better in every category - which is a shame, since mournfang look cooler by far. Hopefully they will be adjusted in the next GHB with modern points in mind, as they should both be 120 barring warscroll changes. For the same points you would then have a decision between 30% more bodies, faster, and tricks vs a better armor save and more damage on the charge - with same wounds/pt for both; much more of a choice.

Edited February 20, 2019 by heywoah_twitch

[That Guy]

While i do agree with all you say, since you got the math down for individual units of them. We mustn’t forget that there’s also possibilities to greatly enhance Mournfang in the tome. Not to forget, the overall influence that Mournfang can have on your whole list. 

9 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

-1 to hit shuts off many procs

Only in the combat phase, in the shooting phase, they are a 4 wound piece of paper, compared to an armoured mournfang.

Battalions, let’s look at them. We are mostly talking about 2000p lists here. Alfrostun and Svard fall off immidiately. Jorlbad, benefits mournfang greatly, Eurlbad, benefits mournfang. Skal is for the cats. Ah... there Torrbad, The only battalion that benefits yhetees, but with a minimum tax of so high (1550p) that you can include a max of 9 yhetees, to benefit from the batallion and have no points left to include a hero that can benefit from the extra artefact, nor have enough to ally for example a wizard, more on this later. Than we have Braggoth’s Beasthammer, oh boy this benefits mournfang so much, making them so much exponentially better. Low tax battalion, multiple fighting, to hit buffs for mournfang and gore gruntas and a bunch of points left to ally in 1 to 2 wizards or just add some units. Also with this battalion and the others above here excluding Torrbad, you can make great use of the second artefact and ofc a battalion gives you the extra CP. Now Olwyr would fit too, but you would have to run MSU mournfang and waste your 3rd artefact, which sucks, but still a mournfang benefitting battalion. 

Now ally options, let’s talk about the best ones. The Butcher and the Fungoid-Cave Shaman. The Butcher, has immidiate synergy with Mournfang Packs, them being Ogor units, means they can benefit from the +1 to hit buff from the cauldron, combine it with say braggoth and oof.., or include multiple, which is hard in our army, but with some cats, possible. Butchers can also slightly heal Mournfang and they can cast chronomantic cogs, but that would benefit yhetees too. What wouldn’t benefit yhetees is anything from the cauldron, since they aren’t Ogors.

Now for the fungoid-cave shaman, it can litterally benefit any destruction list, purely for being cheap, allowing you to get multiple CP per game and pull off endless spells.

Considering all this... i’m not sure if i find yhetees all that superior, perhaps 1 on 1 yes, but in the bigger whole? Well... 

[Lughaidh]

In my lists I use units of 4 mournfang to entertain my opponent’s horde units so that my big bois don’t get stuck in a tarp it. Can Yhetees serve this function? If not then Mournfang and Yhetees aren’t comparable to me. 

[heywoah_twitch]

1 hour ago, Lughaidh said:

In my lists I use units of 4 mournfang to entertain my opponent’s horde units so that my big bois don’t get stuck in a tarp it. Can Yhetees serve this function?

Yes, that's their main job in my lists where I run them. I've found them superior to mournfang in this role. However, do note that massive regiments are a weakness for BCR in general, and a block of 12 ogor allies will outperform both yhetees and mournfang vs hordes.

1 hour ago, That Guy said:

*a lot of mournfang synergies*

You slightly missed my point on that though. Yes, all that is a bunch of synergies with mournfang, but you're starting from a place where you're greatly over-paying, and then you're over-paying again for buffs. It doesn't become worth it, it just becomes even more expensive. At the end of the day you end up with a 1,500 point list power-wise that you paid 2,000 points for.

Like in a vacuum mournfang that can run&charge and hit on 3s are indeed good. But at 160/2 plus 140 for a butcher that only has a 1-in-3 of working (or 280 for 2 butchers which increases it to 55%) plus 160 for jorlbad plus spending 320 on a weak monster like beastriders plus 340 for a weak hero like huskard on SH you can see how you're just lighting points on fire to get a similar effect that other armies spend 100pts on a hero for. And he's buffing a unit that is already good.

Am I saying to sell your mournfang? No! I'm just trying to be realistic about where we currently are - and hoping an incoming new book or GHB changes can let me bring my 12 off the shelf at some point.

[That Guy]

2 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

Yes, that's their main job in my lists where I run them. I've found them superior to mournfang in this role. However, do note that massive regiments are a weakness for BCR in general, and a block of 12 ogor allies will outperform both yhetees and mournfang vs hordes.

You slightly missed my point on that though. Yes, all that is a bunch of synergies with mournfang, but you're starting from a place where you're greatly over-paying, and then you're over-paying again for buffs. It doesn't become worth it, it just becomes even more expensive. At the end of the day you end up with a 1,500 point list power-wise that you paid 2,000 points for.

Like in a vacuum mournfang that can run&charge and hit on 3s are indeed good. But at 160/2 plus 140 for a butcher that only has a 1-in-3 of working (or 280 for 2 butchers which increases it to 55%) plus 160 for jorlbad plus spending 320 on a weak monster like beastriders plus 340 for a weak hero like huskard on SH you can see how you're just lighting points on fire to get a similar effect that other armies spend 100pts on a hero for. And he's buffing a unit that is already good.

Am I saying to sell your mournfang? No! I'm just trying to be realistic about where we currently are - and hoping an incoming new book or GHB changes can let me bring my 12 off the shelf at some point.

And with the numbers you proof that our faction is indeed one of the lower tiers ones at this moment of time. Perhaps with some big value decreases and some rule revamps we might see the day that Mournfang and yhetee truelly don't compare to each other, as the inferior and the superior, but instead as having different roles in the army, with the added solid point by point values being near equal. We can keep hoping.

Edited February 20, 2019 by That Guy

[Baron Wastelands]

@That Guy I’d run yhetees in 6s, yes.

@heywoah_twitch I’m certainly not arguing that mournfang are better per se than yhetees, more that if you happen to own 8 mournfang already, they are not much worse than yhetees on balance. Sure yhetees get buffs from thundertusks, but really you want your yhetees in melee, and your thundertusks at range. I do really like the synergy between the 2 in a Torrbad, where yhetees can pin units in place while ttusks shoot at them - but then we’re back to expensive buffs. Everything you say is right; but mournfangs are decried a bit, and I personally don’t find them that bad in general, quite resilient in fact, and better in 4s than in 2s. For BCR at any rate 😉

Edited February 20, 2019 by Baron Wastelands

[heywoah_twitch]

@Baron Wastelands If they already have mournfang, that's good enough for me, that's the reality of the situation. It then becomes, what's the best way to use the models you already have - let's cook up some lists!

Oh, some tactical advice for @GutZilla on yhetees and frost sabers. Have a 2-man unit of sabers babysit your yhetee squad. The cats should charge while the yhetees hang back at 3.1". Then the enemy must activate and kill the cats, thus making sure there is no counterattack when the yhetees pile in later in combat. Also, I think I would always use ethereal amulet on Frostlord.

Edited February 20, 2019 by heywoah_twitch

[That Guy]

1 hour ago, heywoah_twitch said:

Have a 2-man unit of sabers babysit your yhetee squad.

I really love this tactic, as it essentially is the same points cost as 1 mournfang pack of 2, if you take MSU Yhetee. You won't, but essentially that would be the same pointcost. Now I must also say, I've watched your warhammer weekly vid just now, and basically agree with all you guys "fix the faction" changes, bar the suggestion of Vince to straight up do -1 damage because of stone skeleton to a minimum of 0. While it would only be 1 stonehorn, it will massively annoy horde armies and revert to the idea of Guardsmen not being able to damage vehicles in 40K. I loved the suggestion of the 4 up shrug on the stone skeleton or the +1 to save against damage 1 attacks. A lot of suggestions had a lot of potential, and I do hope to see GW take their notes from this. Maybe, hopefully. As for lists... perhaps some battalion lists? Pure Beastclaw, Let's go Torrbad: Wasting 1 artefact sucks, but whatever let's see. 

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders
Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Huskard on Thundertusk (360)
- General
- Trait: Everwinter's Master
- Artefact: Gryph-Feather Charm

Battlelines
Thundertusk Beastriders (340)
Thundertusk Beastriders (340)
Thundertusk Beastriders (340)
9 x Icefall Yhetees (360)

Units
4 x Frost Sabres  (80)

Battalions
Torrbad (170)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 92

Idea: 2 drop army, 1 extra CP. Sadly the extra artefact is lost. The idea here is to go for the one and done, focus on flanking the entire army on 1 flank of the enemy. Use the Frost sabres to charge and do the yhetee trick with them. burst down either chaff or some important unit. Keep your general right behind the yhetees and enjoy a -2 to hit debuff in melee for your opponent and -1 for Missiles. Obviously keep the other tusks nearby to benefit from the battalion ability once it would occur and blast 24 mortals focused in 1 flank. 

[heywoah_twitch]

3 hours ago, That Guy said:

Torrbad (170)

Torrbad does nothing that you want. It requires you to take the worst type of thundertusks (no heal and no decent weapon+better save). It stops people from retreating away from a unit that no one would ever want to retreat from. It obliges you to organize your army in a terrible way considering battleplans have objectives (ie in a big ball so you have a small chance at some mortal wounds), and it costs too many points. And you can't even use the artefact it gives you. And you don't have enough points for enough bodies. It's a trap to be honest.

Just upgrading tusks and dropping the battalion is superior in all ways but # of drops - which are not terribly important for a list with this strategy. Something like:

3x huskard on thundertusk
9x yeti
6x yeti
6x yeti
2x cat
2x cat

Edited February 21, 2019 by heywoah_twitch

[Jmason]

What is your target priority or strategy for these thundertusk heavy lists? 

The trouble I have experienced when playing the objective based scenarios is that my army tends to get too spread out to do any significant damage. It’s also at this point that my army gets dissected unit by unit....

[heywoah_twitch]

29 minutes ago, Jmason said:

What is your target priority or strategy for these thundertusk heavy lists? 

The trouble I have experienced when playing the objective based scenarios is that my army tends to get too spread out to do any significant damage. It’s also at this point that my army gets dissected unit by unit....

I play very cautiously with my thundertusks most of the time. Possibly too cautiously, but who knows. Maybe I'm too aware of how few guys we have so I'm over protective. What you say is true, however. Our guys are outclassed, so if you enter a fair fight points-wise we'll lose. And spreading out tends to make for fair fights. I have 2 tusks using the buddy system near smaller units and the third off supporting a bigger unit.

Though at dragonfall I ran a frostlord on thundertusk with thermalrider (to shoot over citadel woods/wyldwoods since it was an event you could bring your own terrain to) and I played him pretty aggressively. Mostly because he isn't necessarily screwed if he moves out of position to fire, as he can then charge in to do some frost spear attacks to clean up an objective.

The rest of the time I've found over-extending to snipe a hero ends up getting your thundertusk killed on the very next turn - and then you traded 340 for 120/160 or whatever which is not a good return.

I use them as mobile artillery behind units of yetis to supplement their combat damage with mortal wound fire into whatever they're fighting. This tends to oblige the opponent to make a hard choice - and many times they will keep their buff heroes in awkardly far/out of los positions to keep them safe, but generally their buffs require them to stay close to the unit so a turn afterwards they often fight unbuffed. Other times they decide it's worth it and I shoot the guy in the brain. I like giving my opponents hard choices, as that's the kind of angle shooting we have to do with the options we have.

I should say that at the end of the day I decided that thundertusk spam itself just isn't a very viable strat in this meta. Too much mortal wound protection and hordes for already overcosted guys that chart too quickly and can't fight their way out of a paper bag for being a 300+ point behemoth. 1 is fine to unlock yeti battleline, but the real star of bcr is a frostlord with ethereal.

Edited February 21, 2019 by heywoah_twitch

[PlasticCraic]

A question on the Yetis, I'm still not clear on why people seem to prefer larger groups. 

Since you can't really stack buffs on them, aren't you just better off piling in MSU units sequentially?  It's not like you will be charging with them either, so you're not getting extra value out of a rerolled charge.

With MSU, if you don't wipe something, they will have to activate against only the small unit that is already within 3".  This will have big advantages in some edge cases (e.g. a super killy unit can only overkill half your models, and waste some of their output; or you may be able to minimise pile ins by tagging the end of a unit with 3 models and keeping the other 3 in front of the enemy to mess with their "nearest model").  And  you still get to swing first with all 6 anyway.

Plus the standard MSU benefit of Battleshock having a natural ceiling.

The only downside I can see is against other units with a similar rule, where you will not get to swing first with everyone, but I would think that is less likely to occur in practice than the potential upsides?

Edited February 21, 2019 by PlasticCraic

[Calebexnihilo]

I let a friend play my BCR army... and of course, he goes full Thundertusk! I played as seraphon with a turtling battalion... which failed miserably! Lol.

The battleplan favored him big time: Duality of Death. Heros and Behemoths cap objectives within 3". This eliminated all the seraphon and skink hijinks.

Since my seraphon list didn't have any real melee power, BCR was able to sit and snipe. It was filthy but fun!

Video recap (we just started shooting some videos for our gaming buddy deployed overseas).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG1MHsHaYKo

 

[That Guy]

1 hour ago, heywoah_twitch said:

Torrbad does nothing that you want. 

I wonder, not trying to be sarcastic here or anything, just a serious question. Do you consider any of our battalions to be worthwhile? Imo Braggroth might have some fighting potential and Jorlbad for the alpha strike, the rest of them just seem kinda meh to me overall. I actually dislike the Torrbad the most because of all reasons you put up, i just wanted to see what i could do with it. The min tax for it is just ridiculous.

[heywoah_twitch]

2 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

A question on the Yetis, I'm still not clear on why people seem to prefer larger groups. 

only costs 1 CP to give a unit of nine 6" run roll is my reasoning.

1 hour ago, That Guy said:

I wonder, not trying to be sarcastic here or anything, just a serious question. Do you consider any of our battalions to be worthwhile? Imo Braggroth might have some fighting potential and Jorlbad for the alpha strike, the rest of them just seem kinda meh to me overall. I actually dislike the Torrbad the most because of all reasons you put up, i just wanted to see what i could do with it. The min tax for it is just ridiculous.

Short answer no I don't. Some are playable sometimes, kinda:

Skal is ridiculously expensive considering how overpriced hunter is, but sometimes you run it to give 2nd frostlord an artefact in a 4-beast list and also drop down cats as speed bumps.

Braggoth's Beasthammer can steal games against weaker opponents who blunder deployment and also have no chaff when you go second and win a turn 2 double. Otherwise it sucks. Awkward positioning requirements, not enough points for enough mournfang, if you get charged you can't double pile in and also will probably die.

Eurlbad makes your huskard as damaging as a frostlord which is cool, but procing mws on 6s to wound is far too infrequent to make mournfang and beastriders worth taking, esp at 170pts. (~1 in 12 attacks proc 1mw, and 2 mournfang have 12 attacks...) If you bring buff things like butcher you are too light on guys that can accept said buffs.

Jorlbad makes mournfang at least able to almost keep up with your stonehorn for line breaker which is nice, but they still don't do any damage. It does open up the potential for a plaguetouched warband/gorefist/brass-stampede style strat of 'run across the field, lock their army in the deployment zone, and just sit there grinding while behind them some tiny units are collecting points.' 12 mournfang, butcher, cogs, jorlbad 1980. Issues: cogs is a pure coinflip, butcher is 1-in-3 for the buff t1 and then he's out of range, sucks on many battleplans, isn't tanky enough to deal with competitive armies (gorefist is straight better and no one runs that anymore cuz it doesn't cut it), loses to a lot of counter strats like deepstrikes, teleports, ambushes, etc.

Torrbad has no redeeming qualities.

Olwyr Alfrostun has some cool bonuses, but it's so expensive it is crazy. An aggressively undercosted sylvaneth mega-battalion this is not.

Svard is 2350pts min with 5 monsters.

Alfrostun has the most laughable bonus for a 15 thousand point megabattalion: re-roll 2s on the charge lol

--

@Calebexnihilo Nice, dude! Duality is the one battleplan that BCR has an advantage in imo

Edited February 21, 2019 by heywoah_twitch

[Jmason]

8 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

I play very cautiously with my thundertusks most of the time. Possibly too cautiously, but who knows. Maybe I'm too aware of how few guys we have so I'm over protective. What you say is true, however. Our guys are outclassed, so if you enter a fair fight points-wise we'll lose. And spreading out tends to make for fair fights. I have 2 tusks using the buddy system near smaller units and the third off supporting a bigger unit.

Though at dragonfall I ran a frostlord on thundertusk with thermalrider (to shoot over citadel woods/wyldwoods since it was an event you could bring your own terrain to) and I played him pretty aggressively. Mostly because he isn't necessarily screwed if he moves out of position to fire, as he can then charge in to do some frost spear attacks to clean up an objective.

The rest of the time I've found over-extending to snipe a hero ends up getting your thundertusk killed on the very next turn - and then you traded 340 for 120/160 or whatever which is not a good return.

I use them as mobile artillery behind units of yetis to supplement their combat damage with mortal wound fire into whatever they're fighting. This tends to oblige the opponent to make a hard choice - and many times they will keep their buff heroes in awkardly far/out of los positions to keep them safe, but generally their buffs require them to stay close to the unit so a turn afterwards they often fight unbuffed. Other times they decide it's worth it and I shoot the guy in the brain. I like giving my opponents hard choices, as that's the kind of angle shooting we have to do with the options we have.

I should say that at the end of the day I decided that thundertusk spam itself just isn't a very viable strat in this meta. Too much mortal wound protection and hordes for already overcosted guys that chart too quickly and can't fight their way out of a paper bag for being a 300+ point behemoth. 1 is fine to unlock yeti battleline, but the real star of bcr is a frostlord with ethereal.

Thanks for the advice. I did recently use the ethereal amulet on my Frost lord and it massively improved his staying power. I’ll definitely try to keep in smaller groups going forward.

Has anyone considered allying in  2 units of troggoths to help add some additional melee support? Compared to mournfang( they are both 160 pets) They seem to have more damage potential than what we have access to:

 

[That Guy]

2 hours ago, Jmason said:

They seem to have more damage potential than what we have access to

And slow in a fast army. Also at least ally in the good troggoths, which are the fellwater ones. Superior melee power, superior abilities. Can puke. Doesn’t have a suckish throw ability that starts of at 50% hit chance on MSU and drops to 1/3rd chance after the first troggoth dies. Also zero synergies whatsoever. We don’t lack rend either.

[Luzgurbel]

9 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

only costs 1 CP to give a unit of nine 6" run roll is my reasoning.

Short answer no I don't. Some are playable sometimes, kinda:

Skal is ridiculously expensive considering how overpriced hunter is, but sometimes you run it to give 2nd frostlord an artefact in a 4-beast list and also drop down cats as speed bumps.

Braggoth's Beasthammer can steal games against weaker opponents who blunder deployment and also have no chaff when you go second and win a turn 2 double. Otherwise it sucks. Awkward positioning requirements, not enough points for enough mournfang, if you get charged you can't double pile in and also will probably die.

Eurlbad makes your huskard as damaging as a frostlord which is cool, but procing mws on 6s to wound is far too infrequent to make mournfang and beastriders worth taking, esp at 170pts. (~1 in 12 attacks proc 1mw, and 2 mournfang have 12 attacks...) If you bring buff things like butcher you are too light on guys that can accept said buffs.

Jorlbad makes mournfang at least able to almost keep up with your stonehorn for line breaker which is nice, but they still don't do any damage. It does open up the potential for a plaguetouched warband/gorefist/brass-stampede style strat of 'run across the field, lock their army in the deployment zone, and just sit there grinding while behind them some tiny units are collecting points.' 12 mournfang, butcher, cogs, jorlbad 1980. Issues: cogs is a pure coinflip, butcher is 1-in-3 for the buff t1 and then he's out of range, sucks on many battleplans, isn't tanky enough to deal with competitive armies (gorefist is straight better and no one runs that anymore cuz it doesn't cut it), loses to a lot of counter strats like deepstrikes, teleports, ambushes, etc.

Torrbad has no redeeming qualities.

Olwyr Alfrostun has some cool bonuses, but it's so expensive it is crazy. An aggressively undercosted sylvaneth mega-battalion this is not.

Svard is 2350pts min with 5 monsters.

Alfrostun has the most laughable bonus for a 15 thousand point megabattalion: re-roll 2s on the charge lol

--

@Calebexnihilo Nice, dude! Duality is the one battleplan that BCR has an advantage in imo

I really love this explanation, very useful!

[Luzgurbel]

I have an issue regarding the Olwyr... I love all that pros of the battalion, making the Mournfangs something to be concerned of. But I dislike at all the idea of the FL on TTusk, instead on a Stonehorn. Is it really worth this battalion? And talking about the Eurlbad... Do the Stonehorn attacks benefits from the Eating Hand ability (+1 dmg to the Huskard's melee weapons)?

[Jmason]

47 minutes ago, That Guy said:

And slow in a fast army. Also at least ally in the good troggoths, which are the fellwater ones. Superior melee power, superior abilities. Can puke. Doesn’t have a suckish throw ability that starts of at 50% hit chance on MSU and drops to 1/3rd chance after the first troggoth dies. Also zero synergies whatsoever. We don’t lack rend either.

Agreed 2+ to hit puke attack is better, and no synergies is less optimized. My thought was to use the rockguts 5+ save 5+ ignore to add some survivability. 

[That Guy]

35 minutes ago, Jmason said:

to add some survivability. 

Honestly with the heals that huskards on tusks can bring us, sustainability isn’t our concern too much and yes, i know you run frostlords. Again frostlords will tank a lot and yhetees are fast in combat and tricksy, you never have to charge and can pile in on 6”, meaning you can always run/ retreat with them and still get into combat. Charging in the frost sabres first, will than trigger your opponent to attack and after that, you strike with yhetees. It’s not a matter of survivability. We just lack bodies/ defensive abilities that actually work, unlike our ****** new stone skeleton on the stonehorn. Troggoths bring the same amount of bodies as yhetees do, but are way slower and have no synergies, nor are tricksy. Yeah, they can take a hit or 2 more, because of heals, that now by the way only trigger on a 4+ and the negate wounds? Well... that’s cute against ranged armies maybe, but why not just run more yhetees and frost sabres. Get there faster and actually bring the hurt? 

Oh and run the ethereal amulet on your stonehorn frostlord. I also suggest taking a huskard on thundertusk instead of a frostlord for potential buffs and heals, but if you like the added defensiveness and melee weapon, i can understand. Running bigger units of yhetees is also better. Abilities target 1 unit mostly, command and huskard on tusk. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by That Guy