AoS 2 - Beastclaw Raiders Discussion

[Malakree]

34 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

Total number of wounds near an objective has been suggested a lot, not only for beastclaw, but for honestly a more balanced game (as hordes of bodies are imo too incentivized atm). 

Wound characteristic would be my call, just for simplicity's sake. Means you're not counting up "wounds left" just what the characteristics are. So a Frostlord is ALWAYS 13 wounds, even if it has 1 wound left. Stops stupid math from having to take place.

Side note, I know BCR struggle with the no magic with some advocating for double butcher in GHB2017, has anyone tried an allied fungoid in the list. Not as the general but just for the cheap 80points wizard, seems like having a mystic shield/unbind/dispel could be very useful.

[heywoah_twitch]

If the event is using realm spell lores I take a fungoid, yeah, can't argue with his cost. If the event is not using realm spells I don't take any wizards at all - 12 gutbuster ogors all day. Though tbh the last several games I've played I have been on Destruction allegiance, as it's better than beastclaw's kit entirely and you don't have to contort around ally restrictions.

Current list:

Spoiler

Frostlord on Thundertusk - General, Wild Fury

Frostlord on Stonehorn - Ethereal Amulet

Butcher w/ cauldron

Fungoid Shaman

3x Ogors w/ paired weapons

3x Ogors w/ paired weapons

3x Ogors w/ paired weapons

6x Icefall Yhetees

6x Icefall Yhetees

4x Frost Sabers

1980

 

[Kyyn]

14 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

There is no such rule.

On some battleplans wizards count as 20 models but it will explain that in the battleplan. It could've been a custom battleplan the guy made up or a narrative one that I'm unaware of. Or some house rule the locals cooked up to give beastclaw a chance, however minor.

Total number of wounds near an objective has been suggested a lot, not only for beastclaw, but for honestly a more balanced game (as hordes of bodies are imo too incentivized atm). 

Thanks a lot for your answer.

I was expecting something like that when I was not able to find any clue in any place.

[HiddenElephant]

I've got a very, very important question for discussion here:

...Are Beastclaw Raiders Terrible On Purpose?

Like, think about it like this:  BCR are the cheapest army in all of AoS.  I don't think it's even a contest.  They are so ridiculously cheap, it's ridiculous.  So, that's attractive to new players.  Few models, big modern models, big stompy monsters, plus they have one of these 'battletome' thingies that every fancy modern army has, so it's a good choice, right?

So they buy in, get in a few games, and keep.  On.  Losing.  BCR don't work right for them.  They ideally choose another army, ideally the hot new thing with the this and the that, which comes out to a lot more expensive than BCR.  They do better, and their BCR lay forgotten, used as a hook to lead new players onto more expensive things.

TLDR:  Are Beastclaw Raiders hobbled by GW because they are so cheap and GW could peddle more product in other factions?

[heywoah_twitch]

I don't think so.

I think they saw a destruction army doing well in the first half of 2016 and decided that this was unacceptable. Not the best army in the meta by any stretch, but people didn't like playing against it so it had to get some nerf. Then the teams split off and worked on GHB17 individually.  My guess as to how it went:

The main rules team knew the clear problem was artefacts giving mounts +1 to hit, so they decided that game-wide would no longer be allowed. This was a massive blow to BCR, and enough to balance them out fully without making the army trash. I think this team was right. BCR would be middle of the pack, maybe a touch lower, but still good for all game types.

But then some other team that maybe works on individual armies also felt there needed to be a nerf, and so decided the clear problem was thundertusks stacking and stone skeleton was the most complained about ability. So, they made tusks too expensive and changed stone skeleton into complete garbage. In return they made mournfang cheaper, but this left the beastclaw allegiance with really nothing to do. Their allegiance abilities were already bad (and just about exclusively played as mixed destruction for this reason), but now their best guys were also bad. The painfully low army-wide wound count that stone skeleton helped to balance was now code-red. The real culprit for tusk stacking was blizzard-speaker getting +1 per tusk around. In a vacuum even 300 for a thundertusk that can't heal is hardly worth it, so crippling is his chart.

Then some other guys working on GA decided that destruction's allegiance were too good, and really pushed players to ignore their faction for soup. This is correct, but their fix was the opposite of the right solution. Sure GA:D allegiance was good, but the root cause was that the destruction armies themselves had trash kits. Instead of update these they essentially just made all the choices sad.

Then some other team felt that BCR's nightmare scenarios were all the ideal way to play AoS and needed to be pushed hard (obviously this wasn't on purpose, but it's how it panned out. Massive regiments and high-model auto-capturing battleplans, with a bigger emphasis on scoring points). This is the one where you might have a bit of a point. New players love the idea of low model count armies because they're cheap and look amazing. Obviously that shouldn't be the strongest way to play or they are pushing themselves out of a job, but does it have to be the weakest way to play?

I don't think anyone took a few steps back and checked out the projected state of BCR after this meteor swarm of nerfs from all angles, and furthermore I don't think anyone in GW paid too much attention to BCR from then till now. If they did, they would note near total lack of representation with the worst win record and most bottom 5 finishes of any battletome army up until 2nd ed, without much improvement in the new edition. Whenever they thought about them it probably just brought up memories from 2 years ago about their guy getting shot by frost-wreathed ice and figured 'man that wasn't fun, I'm sure they're still scary'. 

Flash forward to 2018, I'd guess that there was maybe one game of beastclaw played by in-house testing for 2nd edition that featured FLoTT, Skal with some cats, and 27 yhetees. Now that the most expensive and worst looking models in the line were playable so people would buy them they dusted their hands off and said good game (but that's a tad cynical I admit).

A brand new allegiance kit could fix everything - look what happened with Seraphon - but they didn't have one before, and I think they're loathe to make a book irrelevant by changing all the rules in it. Even if the book sucks, and is arguably irrelevant in its current state. If you try to fix this with points then people just steal a behemoth or two for GA:D and the actual faction continues collecting dust on a shelf. Which, with exactly one frostlord at 420 with ethereal amulet, is the case today.

tldr answer: maybe slightly, but probably not too purposefully.

[Kyriakin]

49 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

So, they made tusks too expensive and changed stone skeleton into complete garbage.

The Tomb King sphinxes got clobbered with the latter nerf too, so I don't think it was anything personal against the BCR.

In general, it is clear that nerfs and buffs in a multi-layered game like AoS can have many second and third order consequences that can inadvertently make the pendulum swing quite violently in the opposite direction. In the case of BCR, I just think we were way too far down GW's priority list for them to put in the resources to avoid this, rather than the situation arising from some kind of intentional anti-BCR conspiracy.

[Pitloze]

Best hope BCR has is being included in the rumored Ogor book that will merge Gutbusters and Firebellies.

[Tohshi Ydithe]

So I am new to the game but why doesnt large groups of frost sabers get used as the basis for Beastclaw lists? They do have rather crappy saves but two wounds seem nice for as cheap pointwise they are, and they seem pretty mobile to me and have at the worst fairly average damage for battle line units, and you can ambush them with the hunter general onto point objectives or for a really likely charge at only needing a 6 on that charge, of course needing the battalion for that. And then have the bigger more powerful units as more go kill enemies good stuff or their horses of stuff. Again a new player but the frostsaber with Hunter general seems decent for solving the biggest issue everyone here seems to have, the inability to contest objectives due to limited model count, which you can have more of than SCE for the same price 6 vs 5, though sequitors are definitely better troops.

[PlasticCraic]

@Tohshi Ydithe I think you have touched on the main issue, which is their fragility.  They evaporate incredibly quickly.

They only seem cheap because you get so few in a unit.  That doesn't take into account the exorbitant taxes that go with them, of a terrible Hero and a chronically overcosted Batallion.  To put it in context, the Batallion alone costs 150 points, versus 180 points for Dreadwood AND Outcasts:

Spoiler

 

The latter gets you the ability to Deepstrike a unit 6" away (so it's already strictly better)

AND that can be any unit in the army, such as the hard-hitting Durthu (who isn't shafted by Mounts ruling unlike our big hitters), or a mortal wound bomb Drycha

AND they can get a further 1 or 2 powerful benefits depending on their D3 roll

AND they get 2 CPs

AND they get 2 artefacts

AND they become 1 drop

AND they get the benefits of the useful Outcasts batallion itself

AND they are not obliged to waste a further 140 points on the Icebrow Hunter

 

So although a Skaal is a useful tool to have, building an army around it will put you at a massive disadvantage compared to the power level and utility that other Factions will be putting across the table from you.

40 points looks cheap but it's only because you only get 2 models.  Multiply them up to a viable size to start killing things and keeping hold of objectives, and they quickly stop looking cheap. 

Your own example of Sequitors is a good one, 6 Cats vs 5 Sequitors is no contest whatsoever.  The Sequitors are a fairly durable unit, you can slap them on an objective and they will hold their own.  The Cats...not so much.  After 1 Battle Round you'd probably be left with something like 0 Cats and 4 Sequitors.  Plus the Sequitors are Wizards for capturing Objectives.

TLDR: I think the reason that nobody has had success with Cat spam is that they aren't that cheap to start with, they come with very heavy tax, they are incredibly easy to kill and do not put out enough damage to make up for that fragility. 

Their bases are too large to swarm an objective, they do not have the punch to clear out an objective, and they certainly don't have the durability to grind it out.

They do have utility as a fast throwaway unit, whose only purpose is to cap an uncontested objective.  A unit here or there is quite good for that specific role.  But they are not powerful or efficient enough to spam and build an army around.

Edited October 17, 2018 by PlasticCraic

[Reuben Parker]

I agree cats aren’t cheap enough to be considered as a line holder (10 points per wound on 6+ save is garbage durability) however I think they do have some uses beyond just capping naked objectives. 

1) board zoning multiple units each with an 18” gap to stop units teleporting from your enemy (so many factions can teleport now). 

2) charge blockers 40 points to block a gap for a turn is often really worth it. 

3) wizard , cannon snipers. 

The other one for chaff is 100 points for 20 gnobblars which can be useful 

[Dead_Ghost]

So, I've been looking again at the 2k braggoths list that 'won' the tournament earlier this year and how to make it work given that list ended up 10 points over. 

* Frost lord on stonehorn

* Mournfang (2)

* Mournfang (2)

* Mournfang (2)

* Frostsabres (4)

* Gore Grunta (3)

* Gore Grunta (3)

* Troggoth Hag 

* Chronomantic Cogs

* Quicksilver Swords

* Braggoths Battalion

Should leave me with 50 points, meaning I start the game with 3 CP. 

I have the spare pair of fangs that are needed for the minimum battleline, but they can run with the Frostsabres. 

Thoughts? 

 

[Baron Wastelands]

2 hours ago, Dead_Ghost said:

So, I've been looking again at the 2k braggoths list that 'won' the tournament earlier this year and how to make it work given that list ended up 10 points over.

Thoughts? 

 

While the Hag is great individually, I just think if you’re taking the beast hammer you are handicapping yourself with mournfang units of 2, because they are too small to capitalise on either of the battalion’s abilities properly.

I’d be tempted to drop the hag and boost the 2 mournfang units from the battalion to 4 each. You can still take a wizard, maybe a fungoid, or drop/reduce the sabres and take a weirdnob shaman.

[Luzgurbel]

The BCR can't ally with Ironjawz, sadly.

 

Should you want a wizard, you must choose between the Hag, the Butcher or the Fungoid. 

Edited October 21, 2018 by Luzgurbel

[Baron Wastelands]

58 minutes ago, Luzgurbel said:

The BCR can't ally with Ironjawz, sadly.

 

Should you want a wizard, you must choose between the Hag, the Butcher or the Fungoid. 

Absolutely right. Sorry, gore gruntas threw me ?

Edited October 21, 2018 by Baron Wastelands

[Mr_J_Bandit]

23 hours ago, Luzgurbel said:

The BCR can't ally with Ironjawz, sadly.

 

Should you want a wizard, you must choose between the Hag, the Butcher or the Fungoid. 

I am starting my BCR army and I am wondering what works better a mix of Thundertusk and stonehorns or just one or the other

Also all 3 of the wizards have their place. I think and I am glad I got the right ones.

[Kyriakin]

On 10/21/2018 at 8:42 PM, Luzgurbel said:

The BCR can't ally with Ironjawz, sadly.

 

Should you want a wizard, you must choose between the Hag, the Butcher or the Fungoid. 

Butcher with a Cauldron every day, and twice on Sunday.

By the way, you missed the Firebelly from your list of wizards. However, he should only be considered if your list ends up being 2020 points, and you need to swap him in for a Butcher with Cauldron (although it would be better to shed the 20 points elsewhere, if possible).

Edited October 22, 2018 by Kyriakin

[Kyriakin]

I am painting my first Yhetee today.

I have to say, they are a great "leveller" of in terms of painting. With all the fur drybrushing, sepia washes over the bone trinkets and deceptively easy ice weapons, they are sculpts that beginners could get solid results with really easily. Conversely, an expert painter would really struggle to drag them up to a level significantly beyond that.

The only issue are those damn tiny straps that tie the trinkets to the fur. They are absolutely minute, and sometimes not particularly well-defined with the finecast/metal sculpts. Online photos seem to be about 50-50 between those that make the effort to properly paint them, and those who just say "**** it" and just allow the wash to pick them out.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Kyriakin

[Mr_J_Bandit]

A bit of crowd sourcing, thoughts and CC welcome.

I have a slow burn league starting next month. Starting points is 500 and increases by 500 pnts every 3 months up to 2000pnts for the final . I am naturally doing BCR coz a) I like AoS on hard mode and b) BCR are the best and everything else is food!

I have 2 possible routes I can go down.

1) ice hunter, butcher, 2x2 sabres, 1x3yhetees and quick swords. - 500pnts

For this one my preferred route moving forward would be to add thundertusks and yhetees with either a huskard or hag or fungle shaman plus butcher as support units 

Or

2) butcher and 2x2mournfang balewind vortex - 500pnts

Preferred route on this one would be a hoard army - huskard on stonehorn, fungle shaman plus butcher and all the mournfang and spells I can fit in.

Thanks everyone 

[Baron Wastelands]

Do you need to worry about battleline at any point? That will be the main issue with your first list; also, yhetees and sabres won’t be affected by butcher cauldron buffs. Think I prefer the second list of the two. However ...

I can’t help but feel that a stonehorn at 500pts will rock; you could do:

hunter, 2x sabres, 1x stonehorn beastriders

or 

stonehorn huskard, 2x mournfang

 

in the first I’d build towards a skal, in the second to a eurlbad/jorlbad maybe?

 

or if battleline is really no problem, you could do:

hunter, 3 yhetees, 6 yhetees

or

huskard on tt, 3 yhetees (keep adding TTs and yhetees, go for a Torrbad ?)

or 

hunter, 18 cats ?

[Mr_J_Bandit]

45 minutes ago, Baron Wastelands said:

Do you need to worry about battleline at any point?

Unfortunately I do need battleline great call with this start list 

47 minutes ago, Baron Wastelands said:

hunter, 2x sabres, 1x stonehorn beastriders

I love this as a 500pnt list and I am going to aim for the eurlbad or torrbad

Thanks mate I feel a lot more confident now.

[blueshirtman]

Any news or rumors about an ogor/BCR join up, or a BCR updated book for 2ed?

[CaptainSoup]

44 minutes ago, blueshirtman said:

Any news or rumors about an ogor/BCR join up, or a BCR updated book for 2ed?

Nothing official or even rumors for that matter thus far.  Just speculation and wishful hopes. 

[heywoah_twitch]

Did a lot of testing and came up with this list to run at Dragonfall Con last weekend, 2-day 5 round event:

FLoSH general, wild fury.

FLoTT, thermalrider cloak

Butcher w/ cauldron

Fungoid Cave Shaman

3x3 Ogor battleline w/ iron fists (to kick back mws against skeletons/witches/etc. Also as cheap msu to throw in the way of alpha armies that can kill any unit in one go regardless of size, they at least waste a turn killing 120pts)

6x Yhetee

4x mournfang w/ gargant (I've been real hard on mournfang and so I gave them one last go as sort of a gore-grunta style fast-fat anvil)

1980 (no endless spell since we can't use them effectively and triumph is so very important)

 

Long story short I got dead last. I'll do a report on my show, should be recording tonight.

Cliff Notes:

Mournfang do indeed suck at whatever job you give them. Frostlord on Stonehorn missed a lot and died very quickly always. Thundertusk with flying is sweet, but due to just about every opponent's mortal wound saves/hordes he was largely just a distraction. Extra wound and 3+ save was a good trade for no healing, and I never wanted the coinflip heal really. Ogor battleline probably performed better than any other unit I played, though zero mws kicked back all day. Yhetee did cool pile-in tricks and survived longer than they should due to -1 to hit, but always missed so many of their attacks that they didn't really accomplish much besides being annoying to deal with. Butcher almost never rolled the +1 to hit bonus, and Fungoid was surprisingly durable. Realm Spells are cool.

It may sound like I got unlucky to not hit often with yetis/frostlords, to not kick back mws on 6s, to not roll hit bonus with butcher, etc. But all of these things are very unlikely to happen, and so the variance was normal. That might sum up half of the reason why beastclaw aren't any good. 'Unreliable everything, expensive everything, bad on objectives' is probably the worst 3-fact combination you can have in AoS. Boy do they look great tho

Edited October 26, 2018 by heywoah_twitch

[CaptainSoup]

I can understand how you feel @heywoah_twitch
My first army was BCR. It was fun to play back in first edition before the GHB. I was the unbeatable champ in my group of friends. I even won a small FLGS tournament with them.

In hindsight though, I knew if I faced any real competitive meta lists, especially later down the line with the changes and new releases, it would have been really tough. Now I run a more modern army and the difference in power and strategy is like night and day.

It just goes to show you the difference in how poorly designed the early battletomes are. Stack that with no apparent GHB changes to help limp them along then this fate was bound to happen.

All that being said, at least in casual environments with people ill prepared to deal with large monsters, you can still win a game or two.

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by CaptainSoup

[blueshirtman]

On 10/26/2018 at 12:55 AM, CaptainSoup said:

Nothing official or even rumors for that matter thus far.  Just speculation and wishful hopes. 

Thanks man. See you guys in a month then