AoS 2 - Beastclaw Raiders Discussion

[Calebexnihilo]

Any idea if BCR is going to be able to ally in this new Troggoth King?

[Baron Wastelands]

6 hours ago, Calebexnihilo said:

Any idea if BCR is going to be able to ally in this new Troggoth King?

At the moment, yes, as long as he (presumably) has the Troggoth keyword. Troggoth hasn’t been an allegiance, really, to date, so according to GHB2018, BCR can ally in anything with the keyword Troggoth. Which would include all the Troggoth units from the new Gloomspite gits. 

Of course, this may change in GHB2019 ....

[Fundre]

So there's a pretty mixed bag of comments on this thread. My local meta might be very different but I have had moderate success with BCR. I often get labelled the guy who won't make any friends but honestly there are way worse armies out there than what I run. My hardest oponents are Nurgle and what ever lizardmen are called now. But I have enjoyed a decent win rate, approx 60%. Not winning tournies but giving the top dogs a hard day at the office. 

 

I tend to run the following at 2000pts

Lord on Stonehorn
Lord on Stonehorn
Huskard on Tusk

Butcher ally

2 mournfang

2 mournfang

Thundertusk beastriders

1980pts

 

I do somtimes like to run a hunter purely for deepstriking and trying to snipe enemy buffing characters
Note: i struggle winning some objective badsed missions obviously

What do you guys think of this list?

Edited January 9, 2019 by Fundre

[Lughaidh]

@Fundre I've been running Mournfang in units of 4 and finding successes with them.  I mainly use to them to tie up large hordes. 

[TopHatCat]

I've recently become really curious about BCR due to how good their Start Collecting! box value is, I already have some old Ogre Kingdom stuff I could ally in, so very curious if this faction is worth the investment for a new AoS, (old Fantasy) player? I did a little list theorizing and came up with;

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders
Mortal Realm: Ghur
Frostlord on Stonehorn (420)
- General
- Trait: Massive Bulk
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
Butcher (140)
- Pair of Stump Blades and Great Cauldron
- Allies
Orruk Great Shaman (120)
- Mount: War Boar
- Allies
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
Thundertusk Beastriders (340)
Thundertusk Beastriders (340)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 260 / 400
Wounds: 97
For just an all-around list, tanky Frostlord for charging in, Butcher and Shaman to support our units/dispell Spells, 2 Thundertusks to blast at things as we march forward.

Or;
 

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders
Mortal Realm: Ghur
Huskard on Thundertusk (360)
- General
- Harpoon Launcher
- Trait: Everwinter's Master
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
Butcher (140)
- Pair of Stump Blades and Great Cauldron
- Allies
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
2 x Mournfang Pack (160)
- Culling Clubs or Prey Hackers with Iron Fists
Thundertusk Beastriders (340)
Thundertusk Beastriders (340)
Malevolent Maelstrom (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 140 / 400
Wounds: 103
For a more of a shooty/"Alpha-Strike" list, just try and go all out turn 1 with the 3xThundertusks and keep them healed up during the game with our Huskard/Butcher, hopefully giving our Mournfangs chance to get into combat unharmed/not focused.

But yeah complete noob when it comes to AoS never even played a game yet haha! Need to pop down to a local Geedubs and get a demo or something haha.
So yeah, is the faction worth investing into? I've heard both good and bad, but mostly bad haha! Let me know!

[Lughaidh]

@TopHatCat Orruk can't ally with BCR (except for the Braggoth battalion that has specific rules).  Allies are:  Aleguzzler Gargants, Firebellies, Gutbusters, Maneaters, and Troggoths.  Also, I wouldn't advise on taking Beastriders unless you specifically are trying to meet a requirement for a battalion.  Frostlords and Huskards are strictly better.

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, TopHatCat said:

So yeah, is the faction worth investing into? I've heard both good and bad, but mostly bad haha! Let me know!

As it stands right now, no.

Beastclaw is currently unplayable against most other factions due to both being overcosted and just unable to play objectives.

If you want to use them go grand alliance destruction with a gutbusters based army that uses beastclaw monsters. That way you don't have to field a bunch of garbage to make your battleline requirements and can instead grab blocks of ogors which are actually good. 

Then you use the beastclaw monsters for your hero slots essentially letting you play the bits of the army which are reasonable (frostlord on stonehorn with thermalrider cloak. Just add 4" move and give the frostlord fly).

Additionally it lets you use the other things in the grand alliance which beastclaw just doesn't have access to. Wizards, bodies, endless spells, actually good battleline units, deepstriking etc.

Sorry to be such a Debbie downer but you really need to know what you are getting yourself into or it's going to be a horrific experience for you. Right now over a 5 game tournament weekend of 200 ish people I would be shocked to see a beastclaw place outside of the bottom 50.

@heywoah_twitch is really the best person to talk to and can give you a much better understanding of how you can attempt it.

[Lughaidh]

32 minutes ago, Malakree said:

...

Sorry to be such a Debbie downer but you really need to know what you are getting yourself into or it's going to be a horrific experience for you. Right now over a 5 game tournament weekend of 200 ish people I would be shocked to see a beastclaw place outside of the bottom 50.

...

@TopHatCat are you looking to play tournaments?  If you’re playing just casually at your local flgs then you’ll be fine with BCR. They do struggle with objectives but if trying to overcome that weakness is appealing to you then you can have fun with BCR. Right now I have a 65% or so win-rate with my army.  I’m not in the tourney scene at all though. 

[Malakree]

46 minutes ago, Lughaidh said:

@TopHatCat are you looking to play tournaments?  If you’re playing just casually at your local flgs then you’ll be fine with BCR. They do struggle with objectives but if trying to overcome that weakness is appealing to you then you can have fun with BCR. Right now I have a 65% or so win-rate with my army.  I’m not in the tourney scene at all though. 

Even then it's important to know what your likely opponents will be playing. If you're going to be playing against sacrosanct/LoN/daughters it doesn't matter what level you play at they can throw any random list at you and it will dumpster you.

That's really not fun for anyone involved.

If on the other hand you're playing against people running darkling covens, kharadren overlords etc. Then the games will be a lot more balanced. Even the midrange armies can put together a more fluff list in order to drop it down to a more even game, With ironjawz for example I could rig up a list for a balanced game vs bcr, I could also build a bunch of lists that would just curb stomp them off the table.

This is why I say it's really important to know what you are getting into. BCR are a trueq bottom tier army right now. The last thing you want to do is invest a bunch of time/money to realise that because of what's played at your flgs you will never have an even game.

[Lughaidh]

I play against Nurgle and Nighthaunt mostly. I have played against Legion of Nagash once... I lost. 

[TopHatCat]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

This is why I say it's really important to know what you are getting into.

This is the exact kind of honesty I was searching for, you explain WHY they aren't that great in good detail which is what I was looking for, nice to hear a  solid understanding over true love haha.

As you say, it's much more sensible to give a new player an enjoyable experience, rather than "pick an army you like the look of (but will lose every game)". So thank you!

Coming from Fantasy I was a big fan of Ogre Kingdoms (*Gutbusters? Feh! :P) so honestly, I can just wait on BCR to get good/Gutbusters to get a Battletome, so no real loss

[Malakree]

28 minutes ago, TopHatCat said:

This is the exact kind of honesty I was searching for, you explain WHY they aren't that great in good detail which is what I was looking for, nice to hear a  solid understanding over true love haha.

As you say, it's much more sensible to give a new player an enjoyable experience, rather than "pick an army you like the look of (but will lose every game)". So thank you!

Had I started my Ironjawz a year later odds are I would have quit before really getting into the game. As it is I've gotten good enough with the army to play around it's weaknesses and developed enough of an enjoyment of the game as a whole to stick with it. I've heard to many horror stories of people starting with a friend followed by "It doesn't matter what I or my friend do, my Kharadron's can't beat his Daughters of Khaine and it's ruining the game for both of us" to sugarcoat it to a potential newer player.

All of that said. I then go into the more positive aspects. 

29 minutes ago, TopHatCat said:

Coming from Fantasy I was a big fan of Ogre Kingdoms (*Gutbusters? Feh! ) so honestly, I can just wait on BCR to get good/Gutbusters to get a Battletome, so no real loss

BCR do have some solid options, good ol' Thermalrider Stonehorn was a key component of @Donal mixed destruction list over the past ~6 months, that being the only destruction list to actually place on the top tables in strong tournaments. The biggest problem is that the allegiance abilities suck, the battleline are overcosted and you don't have the models to contest on objectives.

This and the fact you mentioned being a WFB Ogre Kingdoms player are why I suggested Grand Alliance: Destruction. If you've not played it before then the AoS allegiance system is a little weird, when I was looking ~3 years ago I couldn't work out why Ironjawz had so few models. The thing is though that it's designed to try and allow you more options when list building than in the old WFB.

A GA:Destruction army lets you build a list from the entire destruction range with no restrictions at all, whether thats Ogors, Grots, Orruks or forgeworld monsters. You can pick and choose as you want. The specific allegiances are then you choosing to limit your army choices in order to get access to a more plentiful supply of specific units and/or allegiance abilities which are directly tailored to the army you want to build. This Ironically means that the garbage battleline/Allegiance options become an unexpected boon for you.

As you lose nothing of note when transferring over to a GA:Destruction build you can augment all the bits of BCR that you like with good solid units from the rest of the Grand Alliance. In the previously mentioned Mixed Destruction list it was ~100 Grots to fill the battleline, hold objectives and just put bodies on the board. 

In your case I would recommend going for the Ogor orientated destruction build using grots and Ogre Bulls as your battleline, the bulls offer a really nice combination of damage and meat for their points cost, especially with the massive regiment discount of 12Bulls for 400, the last 3 cost you just 40points! Then add in your BCR beasties, some leadbelchers and a butcher. You have a nice classic Ogre Kingdoms force using the models you like, only now you can even throw in some Savage Orcs, Moonclan Grots or a Magma Dragon!

Hope this helps.

[Patagos]

Hello guys.. I one start collecting box and one more Mournfang pack  box . I already make a Frostlord.my question is what to do with others .For example make 8 with gargant hacker?  Make a skalg? Can I make one with gargant hacker and banner? Choose culling cubs? Thanx

[GutZilla]

Hey BCR players, I’m looking at building up a BCR army and wanted your thoughts on this 2k list. 

1x Huskard on Thundertusk w/ blood vulture (Everwinter master, pelt of charngar)

1x Stonehorn Beastriders w/ Chaintrap 

4x Mournfang w/ Gargant hackers 

4x Mournfang w/ Gargant hackers 

6x Yhetees

6x Yhetees

6x Sabre tusks

4x Sabre tusks

How do you think it will play? I didn’t want to focus just on behemoths, since I wanted to be able to actually compete over objectives. 

Additionally, this will be my second warhammer army. My first is a 2k Gutbuster army that I love, but they can be a bit slow and unwieldly at times. Do you guys think they are too similar? I know the models are very similar, but it looks like they play quite differently. 

[the_prophecy]

On 1/13/2019 at 8:11 PM, Malakree said:

Had I started my Ironjawz a year later odds are I would have quit before really getting into the game. As it is I've gotten good enough with the army to play around it's weaknesses and developed enough of an enjoyment of the game as a whole to stick with it. I've heard to many horror stories of people starting with a friend followed by "It doesn't matter what I or my friend do, my Kharadron's can't beat his Daughters of Khaine and it's ruining the game for both of us" to sugarcoat it to a potential newer player.

All of that said. I then go into the more positive aspects. 

BCR do have some solid options, good ol' Thermalrider Stonehorn was a key component of @Donal mixed destruction list over the past ~6 months, that being the only destruction list to actually place on the top tables in strong tournaments. The biggest problem is that the allegiance abilities suck, the battleline are overcosted and you don't have the models to contest on objectives.

This and the fact you mentioned being a WFB Ogre Kingdoms player are why I suggested Grand Alliance: Destruction. If you've not played it before then the AoS allegiance system is a little weird, when I was looking ~3 years ago I couldn't work out why Ironjawz had so few models. The thing is though that it's designed to try and allow you more options when list building than in the old WFB.

A GA:Destruction army lets you build a list from the entire destruction range with no restrictions at all, whether thats Ogors, Grots, Orruks or forgeworld monsters. You can pick and choose as you want. The specific allegiances are then you choosing to limit your army choices in order to get access to a more plentiful supply of specific units and/or allegiance abilities which are directly tailored to the army you want to build. This Ironically means that the garbage battleline/Allegiance options become an unexpected boon for you.

As you lose nothing of note when transferring over to a GA:Destruction build you can augment all the bits of BCR that you like with good solid units from the rest of the Grand Alliance. In the previously mentioned Mixed Destruction list it was ~100 Grots to fill the battleline, hold objectives and just put bodies on the board. 

In your case I would recommend going for the Ogor orientated destruction build using grots and Ogre Bulls as your battleline, the bulls offer a really nice combination of damage and meat for their points cost, especially with the massive regiment discount of 12Bulls for 400, the last 3 cost you just 40points! Then add in your BCR beasties, some leadbelchers and a butcher. You have a nice classic Ogre Kingdoms force using the models you like, only now you can even throw in some Savage Orcs, Moonclan Grots or a Magma Dragon!

Hope this helps.

can you explain why the thermalrider Stonehorn is so good? Is it a realm artifact?

[heywoah_twitch]

7 hours ago, the_prophecy said:

can you explain why the thermalrider Stonehorn is so good? Is it a realm artifact?

It's a realm artefact from Aqshy that gives your hero +4" movement and flying. Movement being extremely important in an objective based game, and Flying being actually overpowered (or if you prefer, a huge downside not to have). One of the many weaknesses of BCR behemoths is how easy it is to 'tar pit' their monsters (being surrounded enough so that they can't even retreat) - flying gives you the option of retreating even if surrounded. Also, flying over opponent chaff screens to attack their important stuff, etc.

Thermalrider Cloak and Ethereal Amulet are the main two artefacts given to frostlords, depending on which problem you want to solve and what you expect to face. Ethereal gives frostlord the ability to not die if he gets charged by something Real. Thermal gives him the ability to jump over chaff and charge something Real.

[the_prophecy]

ok thank you for the insights. its been a while since i last payed BCR 😛

[Baron Wastelands]

On 1/31/2019 at 1:57 PM, GutZilla said:

Hey BCR players, I’m looking at building up a BCR army and wanted your thoughts on this 2k list. 

1x Huskard on Thundertusk w/ blood vulture (Everwinter master, pelt of charngar)

1x Stonehorn Beastriders w/ Chaintrap 

4x Mournfang w/ Gargant hackers 

4x Mournfang w/ Gargant hackers 

6x Yhetees

6x Yhetees

6x Sabre tusks

4x Sabre tusks

How do you think it will play? I didn’t want to focus just on behemoths, since I wanted to be able to actually compete over objectives. 

Additionally, this will be my second warhammer army. My first is a 2k Gutbuster army that I love, but they can be a bit slow and unwieldly at times. Do you guys think they are too similar? I know the models are very similar, but it looks like they play quite differently. 

It’s an interesting list. I think your Thundertusk will be a priority target, but that might allow you to get the rest of your units where you want them. Yhetees are actually quite efficient, and they can help control things where you want them. The biggest issue you will have I think is that you don’t have enough models to contest against large units, nor anything with (individually) enough punch to remove them.

[Pitloze]

What is the best self healing Artefact available to us in the realms or factions? I want to try and run a ThunderLord. Is it still the pelt?

[Kyriakin]

1 hour ago, Pitloze said:

What is the best self healing Artefact available to us in the realms or factions? I want to try and run a ThunderLord. Is it still the pelt?

Prevention is better than cure. I'd go Ethereal Amulet on the Thunderlord, or maybe Gryphfeather Charm (-2 to hit in combat!).

[Pitloze]

5 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

Prevention is better than cure. I'd go Ethereal Amulet on the Thunderlord, or maybe Gryphfeather Charm (-2 to hit in combat!).

Yeah makes sense. But in current list the only I have is from two Butchers (and the Butchers are there to stay). So if I want to actually get him into combat I might be out of range of their heals. I have a ton of magic users with chaff in my meta. So my Stonehorns can get bogged down. Thus I want to try and use a Thunderlord so I have some flexibility. Snipe some heroes and then try and survive the chaff.

I have two Thundertusk lists that I feel are not too cheesy but can still perform:

Thunderlord. A more balanced and aggressive list. I could also swap out the Thundertusk Beastriders for Stonehorn Beastriders and add a 20 point endless spell:

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders
Mortal Realm: Ghur
Butcher (140)
- Pair of Stump Blades and Great Cauldron
- Allies
Butcher (140)
- Pair of Stump Blades and Great Cauldron
- Allies
Frostlord on Thundertusk (420)
- General
- Trait: Everwinter's Master
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
2 x Mournfang Pack (160)
- Gargant Hackers
2 x Mournfang Pack (160)
- Gargant Hackers
Thundertusk Beastriders (340)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 280 / 400
Wounds: 111
 

Tuskard. list build around keeping my Tuskard alive and him healing the Thundertusk Beastriders and having the Mournfang act as blockers:

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders
Butcher (140)
- Pair of Stump Blades and Great Cauldron
- Allies
Butcher (140)
- Pair of Stump Blades and Great Cauldron
- Allies
Huskard on Thundertusk (360)
- General
- Blood Vulture
- Trait: Everwinter's Master
- Artefact: The Pelt of Charngar
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
2 x Mournfang Pack (160)
- Gargant Hackers
2 x Mournfang Pack (160)
- Gargant Hackers
Thundertusk Beastriders (340)
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 280 / 400
Wounds: 110

 

Any thoughts on it?

[heywoah_twitch]

19 minutes ago, Pitloze said:

Yeah makes sense. But in current list the only I have is from two Butchers (and the Butchers are there to stay). So if I want to actually get him into combat I might be out of range of their heals. I have a ton of magic users with chaff in my meta. So my Stonehorns can get bogged down. Thus I want to try and use a Thunderlord so I have some flexibility. Snipe some heroes and then try and survive the chaff.

I have two Thundertusk lists that I feel are not too cheesy but can still perform:

Thunderlord. A more balanced and aggressive list. I could also swap out the Thundertusk Beastriders for Stonehorn Beastriders and add a 20 point endless spell:

snip

Any thoughts on it?

First, don't worry about cheese in our faction - we're the major underdog no matter how many thundertusks you're spamming against any decent list. They're often just expensive dead weight like against LoN, sylv, any army with fnp, hordes, etc.

If you're considering frostlord+beastriders tusk combo, 100% use 2x huskards instead. For 40 fewer points you're getting two heals and losing basically nothing.

I wouldn't run any endless spells with wizards who have no bonuses to cast - even more so since you say your meta has lots of casters. Those points are better saved trying to get a triumph. We really need those triumphs.

[Pitloze]

48 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

First, don't worry about cheese in our faction - we're the major underdog no matter how many thundertusks you're spamming against any decent list. They're often just expensive dead weight like against LoN, sylv, any army with fnp, hordes, etc.

If you're considering frostlord+beastriders tusk combo, 100% use 2x huskards instead. For 40 fewer points you're getting two heals and losing basically nothing.

I wouldn't run any endless spells with wizards who have no bonuses to cast - even more so since you say your meta has lots of casters. Those points are better saved trying to get a triumph. We really need those triumphs.

I know we are not doing well. But I actually don't like the dirty snowball mechanic at all. And I don't own any yethee's so I try to run Stonehorns mostly. This is my this list most game days:

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Butcher (140)
- Pair of Stump Blades and Great Cauldron
- Allies
Butcher (140)
- Pair of Stump Blades and Great Cauldron
- Allies
Frostlord on Stonehorn (420)
- General
- Trait: Everwinter's Master
- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
2 x Mournfang Pack (160)
- Gargant Hackers
2 x Mournfang Pack (160)
- Gargant Hackers
Stonehorn Beastriders (320)
- Option: Blood Vulture
Malevolent Maelstrom (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 280 / 400
Wounds: 111

But it's not cutting it against Death.  Either they ignore rend or they swarm me with 1 dmg skeletons. Thundertusks at least have a chance at sniping their heroes. I was actually thinking of swapping the Maelstrom and Beastriders out for a Stonekard. But without Eurlbad he feels really weak.

I kinda brushed the Tuskards aside because I that even with their innate heals I felt they were still fragile at 4+ save. And at 2k it's 720 points to field them. And I don't want to sacrifice the Butchers to help bring more body's on the table to defend them. Because I really like the butchers. Thus the option to run a Tusklord seems tempting to put everything on once chassis. I do hear you on the Endless spells though. I have been having trouble getting them off. And I don't think we ever used Triumph's in our games. I should look into it.

What would you list at 2000 points if you had to make a list with two Tuskards and no yeti's?

Edited February 3, 2019 by Pitloze

[Brakkus]

Also, don't forget that if you're taking BCR allegience, you can only have 1 allied unit for every 4 BCR unit. So to take 2 butchers you need 8 BCR units. This can be difficult for our faction 

[heywoah_twitch]

10 hours ago, Pitloze said:

list snip

But it's not cutting it against Death.  Either they ignore rend or they swarm me with 1 dmg skeletons. Thundertusks at least have a chance at sniping their heroes. I was actually thinking of swapping the Maelstrom and Beastriders out for a Stonekard. But without Eurlbad he feels really weak.

I kinda brushed the Tuskards aside because I that even with their innate heals I felt they were still fragile at 4+ save. And at 2k it's 720 points to field them. And I don't want to sacrifice the Butchers to help bring more body's on the table to defend them. Because I really like the butchers. Thus the option to run a Tusklord seems tempting to put everything on once chassis. I do hear you on the Endless spells though. I have been having trouble getting them off. And I don't think we ever used Triumph's in our games. I should look into it.

What would you list at 2000 points if you had to make a list with two Tuskards and no yeti's?

If your goal is pure BCR beating a proper LoN list against an opponent who isn't going to make game-throwing mistakes multiple times a game - we straight up can not. I'm not trying to be doom and gloom and I'm not trying to minimize how skill can affect the game, but that's the reality atm. We are weak to hordes, -1 to hit ruins our already unreliable damage and they have lots of other debuffs as well, and they can return massive regiments to play if they die. Their army has better offense and defense, very strong allegiance abilities, lots of bodies and plays better at objectives and all battleplans. It's a hard counter, as they say in magic.

A lesser known thing about thundertusks is that they are quite bad at sniping death heroes if you do the math. A Necromancer will take 3.36 damage from a full strength frost-wreathed ice plus blood vulture, as will Nagash. In other words, on average, you need to spend 720 points to have basically a coin-flip's chance of killing a 110pt hero for your turn. Also, 1-in-3 of those situations will result in a miss from one or both snowballs.

If I was to make a list with 2x tusks but no yetis I would run this:

Spoiler

• Destruction Allegiance
• Huskard on Thundertusk, vulture, general, ravager
• Huskard on Thundertusk, vulture
• Butcher
• Butcher
• 12 Ogors, paired weps
• 12 Ogors, paired weps
• 3 Ogors, Iron Fists
• 1920pts