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AoS 2 - Beastclaw Raiders Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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I've recently picked up a BCR start collecting box as a side project to the eight billion skeletons I need to paint (and to allow me to actually play games), and I was looking for recommendations for running the army casually. I was considering a Firebelly for a "cheap" support wizard, but I know people have found the Butcher to be more useful. Basically other than putting a lord on a Stonehorn I don't know anything I'm doing at this point in time.

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1 minute ago, Lughaidh said:

@Fulkes how casual are you wanting to be? You can literally just buy SC boxes and be fine. Frostlord on Stonehorn, Huskard on Thundertusk, fill rest with Mournfang Packs and you’re ready to go. 

If you buy a 3rd SC box configure the behemoth however you want. 

I'd like to win games of course, but I'm not prepping to try and win any GTs though. So semi-competetive I guess?

Are Yhetees any good?

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4 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

I'd like to win games of course, but I'm not prepping to try and win any GTs though. So semi-competetive I guess?

Are Yhetees any good?

They synergize well with Thundertusks thanks to their ability. Thundertusks can do 6 flat MW a turn undamaged so that's the cheesy go-to. 

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Just now, CaptainSoup said:

They synergize well with Thundertusks thanks to their ability. Thundertusks can do 6 flat MW a turn undamaged so that's the cheesy go-to. 

I know they're the go to, but I was looking at more running a couple big models with a bunch of smaller support models. I know we can't horde but I don't like to put all my eggs in one basket.

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19 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

I know they're the go to, but I was looking at more running a couple big models with a bunch of smaller support models. I know we can't horde but I don't like to put all my eggs in one basket.

You can try and make a list similar to @Kyriakin with a bunch of Yhetees and cats, just takes some of the chaff out to make room for another monster. 

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4 hours ago, Fulkes said:

I've recently picked up a BCR start collecting box as a side project to the eight billion skeletons I need to paint (and to allow me to actually play games), and I was looking for recommendations for running the army casually. I was considering a Firebelly for a "cheap" support wizard, but I know people have found the Butcher to be more useful. Basically other than putting a lord on a Stonehorn I don't know anything I'm doing at this point in time.

The Firebelly has terrible range IIRC, while the Butcher with Cauldron has the ability to self-heal, a potentially powerful unique spell and some nice stuff in his cauldron. Unless your list with him ends up at 2020 points, take the Butcher with Cauldron every day and twice on Sundays.

-------------------------------

As for Yhetees, they run into a position (i.e. without even charging) safely out of everyone else's pile-in range and then bounce in to guarantee first swing - which is something that their glass cannon nature requires.

The issue is the fact that each model is a tenner by UK prices, so a Yhetee-heavy list could approach 200 quid in derpy, Finecast Yhetees alone. Also, the chances of a plastic Yhetee resculpt down the road are not known, but its plausible.

If Yhettes were reasonably-priced and plastic (or at least easily proxyable), we'd be seeing loads more of them IMHO.

Cats are even worse sculpts IMHO, but far easier to proxy within the AoS/40K/Middle Earth range.

Edited by Kyriakin
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12 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

The Firebelly has terrible range IIRC, while the Butcher with Cauldron has the ability to self-heal, a potentially powerful unique spell and some nice stuff in his cauldron. Unless your list with him ends up at 2020 points, take the Butcher with Cauldron every day and twice on Sundays.

Fair enough. It's not that I hate the butcher exactly, but the idea of mixing fire and ice in an army was visually neat to me.

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4 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

Fair enough. It's not that I hate the butcher exactly, but the idea of mixing fire and ice in an army was visually neat to me.

I have one, but was going to paint his "fire" in ice colors and make his hammer into an ice weapon.

 

Edited by Kyriakin
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2 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

I love the plan! Reminds me of D&D's metamagic thing where you could swap elements around for spells.

Yea, I just like icy things (I played Kislev as a kid, before my 15-year hiatus) and never really liked ogres. With hindsight, I guess you could make any faction Winter-themed, but if they ever make ice/snow endless spells and the like, it will likely be for BCR (unless we get gimmick-infringed in the way Idoneth did to Scourge Privateers).

It's probably another reason why I lean into Yhettes and sabre-toothed cats, which are - despite the somewhat derpy models - conceptually right in my ballpark.

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Beastclaw Raiders has no magic outside of allies and has difficulty competing on model count. I was thinking, maybe there’s something to be said for playing to BCR’s  strengths?  Forget magic altogether. Don’t try to load up on Mournfangs, Yhetees, or cats.   Take your max allowed of behemoths and fill the rest with chaf. Play super fast and “win” the game in the first couple of rounds. Thoughts?

Edited by Lughaidh
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24 minutes ago, Lughaidh said:

Beastclaw Raiders has no magic outside of allies and has difficulty competing on model count. I was thinking, maybe there’s something to be said for playing to BCR’s  strengths?  Forget magic altogether. Don’t try to load up on Mournfangs, Yhetees, or cats.   Take your max allowed of behemoths and fill the rest with chaf. Play super fast and “win” the game in the first couple of rounds. Thoughts?

Well that has been the general MO on playing BCR since the Tome was released. Before the allied changes in GHB BCR with grots actually won a few tournaments. Since then better stuff has been changed or released to make even that inadequate. I think one of the issues with this strategy is running up and tabling your opponent isn't a way to win the mission. You could table someone but if they played the objective the whole game they'll still win by points. This is assuming you could do this now with how strong some armies are.

We've always played to BCRs strengths, it's just their strengths aren't strong enough to be worth trying anymore.

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8 hours ago, Lughaidh said:

Beastclaw Raiders has no magic outside of allies and has difficulty competing on model count. I was thinking, maybe there’s something to be said for playing to BCR’s  strengths?  Forget magic altogether. Don’t try to load up on Mournfangs, Yhetees, or cats.   Take your max allowed of behemoths and fill the rest with chaf. Play super fast and “win” the game in the first couple of rounds. Thoughts?

If they are playing BCR, then maybe winning isn't the priority. If it was, they would be playing DoK, Nurgle, LoN, etc.

It's possible just to play a faction "just because...", and to do so without min-maxing everything.

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8 hours ago, Lughaidh said:

Beastclaw Raiders has no magic outside of allies and has difficulty competing on model count. I was thinking, maybe there’s something to be said for playing to BCR’s  strengths?  Forget magic altogether. Don’t try to load up on Mournfangs, Yhetees, or cats.   Take your max allowed of behemoths and fill the rest with chaf. Play super fast and “win” the game in the first couple of rounds. Thoughts?

I don’t play in a super-competitive environment, and enjoy different modes of play. But in the ‘competitive’ games we do play, I think there’s something to be said for playing to your strengths. BCR are certainly not going to win a magic war, even with allied wizards. On the other hand, an allied butcher with cauldron can add more than just a spell and a dispel to BCR, and thus is a common and useful ally choice. As for as many monsters as possible, while I like playing those, they do struggle with the objective game/board control. Also, at 2k, you can still only take 4.

That said, in order to test your suggestion, how about going big on frostlords. Say:

FL on stonehorn x 3, Thundertusk beastriders, 2x2mournfangs, 2x2 sabres.

Edited by Baron Wastelands
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Anyway, in terms of future direction, I would prefer the faction to use its visual theme (i.e. snow, ice, etc.) to provide its identity. To this end, new cats and Yhettes are a no-brainer, but some ice-based Endless Spells seem like low-hanging fruit too, and - if they don't want to give us an Allegiance Ability to help with objectives (e.g. wounds-not-models, or models-multiplied-by-a-factor) - maybe some hordes of ice sprites (i.e. similar to Malifaux's Ice Gamin) or small Yhettee-like creatures.

Ogres will obviously still be the fundamental archetype of the army for riders and leaders, but I feel Gutbusters should the natural home for the more classic, vanilla Ogres.

I hope they also take this philosophy for factions like Fyreslayers, where they lean into the theme of fire/magma (e.g. Kdaai Fireborn, etc.) and away from "naked dwarfs". Again, Dispossessed can serve to provide the more Tolkien-esque Dwarfs.

Edited by Kyriakin
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Running this soon and I still haven’t figured out how to combine units. So far I’ve been splitting up the Frostlord and Huskard and assigning each a few mournfang. I’m wondering now if I shouldn’t just have the two behemoths run together and then have all the mournfangs together after a different objectives. 

Troggoths are just filler. I’ve got more stuff coming in the mail. 

 

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Edited by Lughaidh
wrong list
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2 hours ago, Lughaidh said:

Running this soon and I still haven’t figured out how to combine units. So far I’ve been splitting up the Frostlord and Huskard and assigning each a few mournfang. I’m wondering now if I shouldn’t just have the two behemoths run together and then have all the mournfangs together after a different objectives. 

Troggoths are just filler. I’ve got more stuff coming in the mail. 

EAFDDC19-ABD8-4D43-A56E-DEA7C49E5B24.jpeg

Looks good. Maybe a little heavy on the tzeentch for BCR? 😉

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That looks even better 😁

I understand you’re running 2x2 mournfang to fill battleline,  but depending on what you have coming in the mail, I’d recommend trying them in 4s. They start to become more of a threat, and battleshock hasn’t really been a problem for me.

The hunter is a also a bit lacklustre outside of a skal, for me. 

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I have 10 Frost Sabres (Fenrisian Wolves) and 2 SC boxes incoming. 

My main question is how to use the units. I guess it depends on the battle plan. The FLoSH is easy, he’s there to aloha strike heroes. Hunter is for sneaky objective grabbing or hero killing. I’m still not sure if the mournfang packs should be split up or all 8 ran together. 

 

Edited by Lughaidh
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Your hunter is the slowest unit in the army (barring troggoths), so by the time he gets to an objective, he often won’t be able to take it. Equally, he won’t be killing many heroes, at least not quickly, unless you get lucky with a spear throw. His main use is as an ambusher, so he can tie up war machines, etc. He’s better at this with some sabres, in a skal.

Also, you’ll find it hard to alpha strike heroes with your FL. Actually you want to get him (charging) into monsters, as he is more resilient against higher damage attacks, and can dish out a good amount on the charge.

Your Thundertusk is for sniping buffing heroes first, and then knocking damage tables down a couple. Or shooting expensive elite (armoured) units. Keep it out of combat if you can, and don’t forget the huskard’s ability to heal.

Mournfangs are kinda your utility unit, so yes, depends on the scenario. They’re not great at objectives because their number count is always low, but they’re mobile, fairly durable, and a bit more adaptable than the big beasts. Their damage output is often a bit disappointing, but they can sometimes do better against hordes of cheaper troops.

cats, when not ambushing, can just be used to get in the way.

Edited by Baron Wastelands
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On 11/15/2018 at 7:36 PM, heywoah_twitch said:

Make Beastclaw competitively viable without giving the opponent a negative play experience (thundertusk spam). 

This is probably my biggest hope for a beast-claw rework. A full health Thundertusk dunking 100 point hero's with snowball isn't really overpowered in a numbers sense, but from a player perspective telling a newer opponent that their cool hero model is just dead on a 2+ leaves a sour taste. Multiply that with spam.

I dunno, I adore the beastclaw range aesthetically  (minus those damn yeti) , anything short of a battletome rework and re-imagining won't really satisfy my issues as a casual matched player. Still, hope to see them get some points reductions! A bandaid is better then nothing!

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