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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Bonesplitterz Discussion

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1 hour ago, broche said:

I don't see how kunning ruk is more boring than FEC attacking again and again, Skaven deleting your army, DoK hag'nar or 3 x 30 grimghast. Almost have army have 1-2 strategy that is completly skewed. 

Also boring and competitive is not the same adjective. 

People tend to find Shooting gimmicks more boring than melee ones, since there's much less interaction or counterplay. With combat, you can zone out, use pile in tricks, now there's activation wars, etc. Not to mention just a lot more ability to measure spaces and create/deny charge avenues. With shooting lists, the only counterplay is basically just stack defenses or try to hide behind LOS terrain. And shooting gimmicks getting a double turn is extra feel bad since you don't even get to swing. 

That said, I think most of the feel bad from Kunnin Rukk is that your opponent just kinda just watches you buff up and roll dice, and your shooting takes a lot of time, so if the Rukk player doesn't know what they're doing, they can monopolize game time quite a bit. 

 

Unrelated, I'm a few more games in with my Bonesplitterz, and I'm starting to see just how medicre the Boar units are. Big Stabbas are carrying my games super hard, to the point where I'm considering Teef Rukk over Kunnin Rukk just to get more mileage out of them. And honestly I'm starting to look at a Rogue Idol just to boost my Wizard spells because enemy armies have so many boosts to casting and unbinding, and it sucks not seeing those important spells go off. Hopefully we get some sort of buff that way in the new book - assuming all our Warclans become "subfactions", maybe Drakkfoot will bring our Wizards up to par.

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1 hour ago, broche said:

I don't see how kunning ruk is more boring than FEC attacking again and again, Skaven deleting your army, DoK hag'nar or 3 x 30 grimghast. Almost have army have 1-2 strategy that is completly skewed. 

Also boring and competitive is not the same adjective. 

I'm not saying other builds aren't boring. I do think Kunnin Rukk is one of those boring builds though. That's just my opinion of it. 

I am fully aware boring and competitive are not the same adjective. 

My opinion on Bonesplitterz not being competitive (overall) remains unchanged.

 

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I have a feeling though that changes done by a new battletome would be perceived as side grades like with Sylvaneath and Khorne

my prediction of what going to happen would be:

every buff would become "Whole within" (expected change, not a big deal, but some of the few games I play with BS I notice how easy everything is when it "Within")

the Superbattalion (Bonegrinz, Drakkfoot, Icebone Warclanz) maybe changed into becoming Stormhost abilities (Pro: free abilities, Con: makes it harder to one drop)

Kunnin Ruk and Arrer boyz changes: not sure if they will gut them further or just change it to be more bearable, I honestly hope they keep their range playstyle.

thing i hope they add to BS:

a List of Prayers

ability to play in the Activation wars other than using Gorkamorka's Warcry

Buffs to the regular Savage Orruk and Boarboyz

maybe controversial, but I hope they make the army a little less reliant on the Big stabbas 

 

 

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Bonesplitterz don't have any Priests, so Prayers don't make sense. Unless they make Wardokks into Priests, but then would they stop being Wizards? I think that's pretty unlikely. 

I don't see Kunnin Rukk surviving the change, to be honest. Most of the Battalions in the game with "holy ******" effects have gotten extremely neutered in effectiveness or straight up removed. Since the Bonegrinz superbattalion is based off the Kunnin Rukk, we might see the effect rolled into their Command Ability (much like Anvils of the Heldenhammer can make a unit fight/shoot for a CP). 

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2 hours ago, Requizen said:

That said, I think most of the feel bad from Kunnin Rukk is that your opponent just kinda just watches you buff up and roll dice, and your shooting takes a lot of time, so if the Rukk player doesn't know what they're doing, they can monopolize game time quite a bit. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Mogwai Man said:

I'm not saying other builds aren't boring. I do think Kunnin Rukk is one of those boring builds though. That's just my opinion of it. 

 

I normally say Kunnin Rukk is boring but that is probably the wrong word. If you don't use a dice app the rolling is awful for both players. It's too long, slow, dull; tiresome and monotonous. With all the buffs and broach you are throwing like 200 dice (afterrerolls and procs) for 20-40 wounds.

FEC are more "fun" since its so quick... clearly "fun" is the wrong word.

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4 hours ago, Requizen said:

Bonesplitterz don't have any Priests, so Prayers don't make sense. Unless they make Wardokks into Priests, but then would they stop being Wizards? I think that's pretty unlikely. 

I wouldn't be that shocked, personally.  One of their main aspects in the lore is that they are devoutly religious - I think it makes sense thematically?

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6 hours ago, Mogwai Man said:

My opinion on Bonesplitterz not being competitive (overall) remains unchanged.

Surprise surprise.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, novakai said:

I have a feeling though that changes done by a new battletome would be perceived as side grades like with Sylvaneath and Khorne

my prediction of what going to happen would be:

every buff would become "Whole within" (expected change, not a big deal, but some of the few games I play with BS I notice how easy everything is when it "Within")

the Superbattalion (Bonegrinz, Drakkfoot, Icebone Warclanz) maybe changed into becoming Stormhost abilities (Pro: free abilities, Con: makes it harder to one drop)

Kunnin Ruk and Arrer boyz changes: not sure if they will gut them further or just change it to be more bearable, I honestly hope they keep their range playstyle.

thing i hope they add to BS:

a List of Prayers

ability to play in the Activation wars other than using Gorkamorka's Warcry

Buffs to the regular Savage Orruk and Boarboyz

maybe controversial, but I hope they make the army a little less reliant on the Big stabbas 

 

Yeah I'd agree with most of that Novakai.  I have heard rumours that the Kunnin Rukk may be gone completely, or at least completely hollowed out in the way that Vanguard Wing was.  I think they'll have to throw us a few bones in other ways if that's the case, which hopefully they will.  

One other thing I'd like to see is boosted to magic.  Casting from (mostly) scratch doesn't hack it for a magic army these days unfortunately.  The only reason I can get so much mileage out of Kunnin Rukk is because the buffs are "within", so you can cast from out of unbind range.  

A sideways pivot away from arrow boy spam to more balanced melee and magic forces, with shooting support, would actually be great - as long as we get the support in those other areas.

With regards to Big Stabbas, I agree...trying to build a melee army with the poor baseline stats and absence of rend in all combat units other than Big Stabbas is a major weakness, and hopefully one that can be addressed.  I love Big Stabbas but I'd like to see some of the other core units get a lift in effectiveness.  Maybe something like a spell, prayer or batallion that gives rend to units, and another that gives impact mortal wounds on the charge for cavalry (like an improved Snagga Rukk).

Edited by PlasticCraic

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7 hours ago, Requizen said:

That said, I think most of the feel bad from Kunnin Rukk is that your opponent just kinda just watches you buff up and roll dice, and your shooting takes a lot of time, so if the Rukk player doesn't know what they're doing, they can monopolize game time quite a bit. 

Agree with this, one thing I would say is that you can get through the mechanics of rolling it out it way quicker once you've had some experience with it.  I have a decent technique which I've been meaning to put up on YouTube for a while - if any of you happen to listen to Heralds of War, I played against both Mick (Failed Charge) and Clint at SAGT, and they were both quite complimentary about how quickly we got through the dice rolling in their tournament review episode.  DOK with rerolls and Hero Phase pile ins is just as bad in terms of pure dice rolling - I think the larger issue is the second one you touched on, i.e. the lack of counter play against shooting-based armies.

One thing I would say there is that in the current edition it's less bad (tagging a unit now is the equivalent of chaff screening - you dictate that they have to waste their output overkilling garbage).  But it's still an issue, no doubt.  I've also played a lot of Ironjawz, right through the Aetherstrike / Skyfires era, so I have been on the other side enough times to know that it's not a great experience if you don't have an army that can absorb it!

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Requizen said:

Unrelated, I'm a few more games in with my Bonesplitterz, and I'm starting to see just how medicre the Boar units are. Big Stabbas are carrying my games super hard, to the point where I'm considering Teef Rukk over Kunnin Rukk just to get more mileage out of them. And honestly I'm starting to look at a Rogue Idol just to boost my Wizard spells because enemy armies have so many boosts to casting and unbinding, and it sucks not seeing those important spells go off. Hopefully we get some sort of buff that way in the new book - assuming all our Warclans become "subfactions", maybe Drakkfoot will bring our Wizards up to par.

I guess the thing with Teef Rukk (and Wurggog) is that it gives you a play around Activation Wars, i.e. you will actually get an opportunity to activate your units.  Another one is the Drakkfoot, which can also lift your magic quite a bit - but those Batallions are so expensive, it really locks in your whole build. 

It's kinda crazy when you think about it, Drakkfoot + Kopp Rukk is more points than Bonegrinz + Kunnin Rukk.  A huge points drop for Drakkfoot would be the short term band aid I'd like to see in the GH while we wait for an updated book, in terms of opening up alternate playstyles to Kunnin Rukk.

Edited by PlasticCraic

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Posted (edited)

ive played a couple of 1k games recently and had great success.

i run 31 boars and 1 savage boss

there is alot of good movement and if my opponent wants to lock my units up i usually have other units moving free.

play every group of boars in 5 man squads ( except if your running into the likes of cauldron of blood or note worthy units ) then i change one 2x5 man unit to a 10 man (counter deploy).

control the field, winning on points.

ive won against;

Daughters of Khaine

Stormcast

Nurgle

what im trying to say is...

this army is not the best in saves and damage output per point.

but it excels on being able too lock down objectives and have a shot at staying on the board and winning on points.

1k list ive used

1 maniak wierdnob - waagh monger/dokk juice

brutal beast spirits with 10 man and

hand of gork if i only play with 5 man units

1 Savage Big Boss

5 maniaks

5 maniaks

5 maniaks

5 maniaks

5 boarboyz

5 boarboyz

i use the boarboyz more defensive.

i take the most points turn 1-3.

deploy as high up as you can in a line.

when i catch up to an objective i block it with a line just at 6".

just ignore things with good saves and focus on everything else.

Edited by MeSmashDaNoobs
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Hey guys, 

 

I'm going to a 2k tournament later this year and thought about goofing around with my boyz! It's a narrative tourney, so competitive and fun with a variety of unique realms to battle across in each round.

Could one or two of you help me out with growing the best I can do with what I've got? I'm willing to grow the army, because I love to paint them.

 

I own:

30 morboys, 20 boarboyz, 8 big stabbas, big boss, wardokk, 2 maniak weirdnobs, the wurghog prophet. A gargant. Dankhold troggoth unbuilt. 20 orruks on foot(unbuilt). Also have the orruk warboss on boar with banner.

I own all the endless spells including the new ones, and have enjoyed flinging spells across the board and getting stuck in with the morboys , but I lose a lot lol.

 

One thing I dont really want to do is spam arrows. But I will if I have to! 

 

Or...should I just play my ironjawz lol.

 

Thanks guys! 

-T

 

 

 

 

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Since we didn't get mentioned in the new ghb info I'm certain we will get a new tome soon

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On 5/30/2019 at 4:16 PM, PlasticCraic said:

I wouldn't be that shocked, personally.  One of their main aspects in the lore is that they are devoutly religious - I think it makes sense thematically?

I see no reason why they cannot use the "prayer" mechanic on a model and also not make them a wizard..  Sure, Bonesplitterz are technically "religious" but for Orcs & goblins you cannot really separate "religion" from "magic" - they are basically the exact same thing for these armies.  Greenskin magic is generally seen as tapping into some form of GorkaMorka's divine power.

On the topic of "priests" they did add this mechanic to Gloomspite in the form of the non-wizard members of the Gobbapalooza.  So there is now precedence for the "prayer" mechanic within Destruction.  They named it "Gobbapalooza know-wotz", but aside from that it is the same mechanic as prayers.  It is worth noting that the mechanic is the same as prayers, but these models do not have the "Priest" keyword - so GW has shown that you don't need to be a priest to use a version of the prayer mechanic.  I fully expect that another Orc/Goblin army is going to end up using some form of the prayer mechanic.  It could potentially be Bonesplitterz, and if so then I would expect them to make a broader "juju dance" mechanic that heroes can use, but I don't see any reason why those models would have to lose their ability to cast spells.  It would basically be the same thing that Wardokks do now, but altered to use a common rule framework - and it could be something they could apply in a broader way to other heroes.

However, I don't know that they will necessarily do this.  Bonesplitterz are pretty much exactly the old-school savage orcs turned into a full Age of Sigmar army.  They gave them some different fluff, and a monster hunter theme, but other than that they are changed very little and still follow all of the same broad themes.  They are all considered by other orcs to be some level of just plain crazy.  Rather than follow warbosses they gather behind the leadership of shaman/witch-doctors.  They are absurdly superstitious, they use magic tattoos for protection, they purposefully shun technology and instead utilize traditional bone & stone weapons, and they are a horde of frenzied lunatics.  Shaman and magic are a big defining feature of this army.  It appears to me that this is meant to be the Orc army that specializes in spell casters.   Ironjawz have their Weirdnob, but I expect that magic is always going to be a minor part of Ironjawz and instead it is going to take center-stage for Bonesplitterz.  They may decide to add prayers into Bonesplitterz, but to me that feels like it might fit more thematically into Ironjawz.  Prayers are simply a mechanics framework in AoS now and they don't necessarily have to represent "religion" - Gloomspite showed us that.  So a prayer mechanic within Ironjawz would let them expand out buffing abilities without having to make wizards & magic a big important part of the army - similar to Daughters of Khaine.

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25 minutes ago, AlmGandix3 said:

Since we didn't get mentioned in the new ghb info I'm certain we will get a new tome soon

Yeah, Bonesplitterz are the next destruction tome that I am expecting to see.  As I posted earlier, my local GW store was required to send all copies of the Bonesplitter book back to the corporate office a couple months ago.  The fact that they pulled the product from store shelves implies they are replacing it.  The fact that they are specifically handling Ironjawz in the General's Handbook with expanded allegiance stuff implies that the Ironjawz rework is further down the road and so the GHB is being used to shore them up for a while.

I think this is a good choice by GW and if I was in their shoes I would make the same decision.  I like Bonesplitterz and Ironjawz equally, but to me it seems that the Ironjawz force is on the whole in better shape.  The Bonesplitterz are a bit of a mess in my opinion as the original force did not seem to come out much like GW wanted it to and some allegiance rules & point tweaks probably won't fix it.  You could probably make the Kunnin Rukk built more competitive through those options, but fundamentally what Bonesplitterz need is a rework of pretty much the whole book - but especially warscrolls.  The main emphasis of the army has always been a force of frenzied berserking orcs led by powerful wizards.  This is basically the Zulu force of Warhammer.  The primarily ranged competitive army build always seemed like something accidental that GW did not anticipate.  That said, I hope that they keep the concept of a ranged-emphasis build within the army but still shift it into the primary melee/magic force that it was meant to be.  Archer units fit the strong theme of big-game hunters so I would hate to see it removed - but it also should not be the primary strength of the force.   

The Ironjawz force already does what it was meant to do for the most part - punch people in the face.  They just need some modernized allegiance rules (a spell lore also please).  The Bonesplitterz need more of a rules rework so that there is a purpose and use for standard savage orruks with spears.  So that there is a compelling difference between Morboyz and Savage Orruks aside from Morboyz simply being much much better.  The two units should do different things.  The same thing goes for the two boar units.  And the various wizards should be better at both blasting the enemy apart with bolts of green energy and also buffing up the hordes of boys into a savage green tide.

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Bonesplitterz and Gutbusters

No changes here – your Bonesplitterz and Gutbusters armies are just as deadly as they always were!

 

I dont know if I should be angry or happy. On the one hand it sort of confirms that we get a tome soon since we need some changes, but on the other hand it really annoys me that it could be a long time until we get the tome.

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I am not sure if that comment felt a bit snarky but i am optimistic that no change mean that Bonesplitterz or Ogors tome maybe coming before the end of the year or within the coming  months

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3 minutes ago, novakai said:

I am not sure if that comment felt a bit snarky but i am optimistic that no change mean that Bonesplitterz or Ogors tome maybe coming before the end of the year or within the coming  months

I think I got my hopes up to high expecting the new format of the GHB to change alot more, but youre right it was a tad too much

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Posted (edited)

The point changes overall seem lackluster to me.

Edited by Mogwai Man

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34 minutes ago, Mogwai Man said:

The point changes overall seem lackluster to me.

I could see potential if they could cheapen the Superbattalion, to around the same cost as to the Ironjawz ones. 

But Hopefully there is a battletome coming out soon if they didn’t change point for Bonesplitterz (and the fact that they bother to announce it on the GHB article)

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On 5/30/2019 at 12:06 PM, Requizen said:

Bonesplitterz don't have any Priests, so Prayers don't make sense. Unless they make Wardokks into Priests, but then would they stop being Wizards? I think that's pretty unlikely. 

Priest is simply a keyword that a few things interact with.  Prayers are simply a mechanic framework for a different way to give non-spell buffs.  Some armies have priests that use prayers, but not all armies that use the prayer mechanic use priests.  For example the Gobbapalooza non-wizard models all use the same rules as prayers for their special buff abilities.  They simply named them gobbapalooza-know-wotz rather than a prayer.  But if you look at the basic mechanic it is the same.

So there is no reason that they could not use the same mechanic for a “Ju-Ju” dance buff ability.  And there is no reason that a wizard model cannot have another ability.

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On 6/14/2019 at 12:08 PM, novakai said:

I am not sure if that comment felt a bit snarky but i am optimistic that no change mean that Bonesplitterz or Ogors tome maybe coming before the end of the year or within the coming  months

I called it before that Bonesplitterz is the next Destruction book and that we would probably also see either a combined ogor or just a Gutbusters book as well this year.  I think this article about the GHB nailed down this rumor/suspicion.

Unless GW just wants to troll players there is no realistic reason to not adjust the points of Bonesplitterz and Gutbusters as those allegiances are down around the bottom of the pack.  Not adjusting the points for any of the units only makes sense if they are dropping a new book and making some big changes.  I expect warscroll changes.

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